The 2020-2021 Football Thread

[Scepticalscribe]

Imagine your team being in the Premier League with a golden ticket stating "can't be relegated" - except it's an invitation-only Europe-wide Premier League and you were essentially playing in the Champions League knockout stages every week. That's the proposed Super League.

The most heartbreaking thing about it will be watching fans flock to it - and they will. Owners know that, despite what fan groups say about authenticity and the need for sustainable pricing etc., fans will never stop coming regardless how badly they are exploited. Perhaps a few German clubs would be exceptions, but otherwise this is a fact. Look at Newcastle. If the fans stayed away from the stadium for a season and stopped buying merch and dropped all their season tickets Ashley would have been gone years ago. They shouted abuse at him while continuing to throw bushels of money at him. And people like Ashley (and other owners) couldn't care less what fans say or do as long as the money keeps flowing. They would, and will, do anything for money. It's the only language they speak.

I wonder.

Post-Covid, given the probable drastic economic dislocation and stratospheric job losses, (and health problems) - and, in the UK, with Brexit - a further economic challenge on top of existing health and economic challenges brought about by Covid - I wonder whether many fans will actually be able to afford to follow the game.

Of course, the very concept is disgraceful and disgusting in its shameless greed, and naked avarice.

Moreover, the "can't be relegated" clause means that there is no sanction, no punishment, no negative consequence, for failure: Long term, that does little for encouraging genuine competition, and will possibly faster a culture of self-congratulatory eternal friendlies.

 

[Apple fanboy]

The fans in the grounds are very small amount of income compared to the TV money I’d have thought.
I’m not sure the super league is inevitable. I’d say there are lots of people against it. Who would be considered the big four or the big six anyhow? It’s not like it’s a forgone conclusion who the top four or six will be. Unlike Spain, Scotland or Germany where it’s more predictable.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I wonder.

Post-Covid, given the probable drastic economic dislocation and stratospheric job losses, (and health problems) - and, in the UK, with Brexit - a further economic challenge on top of existing health and economic challenges brought about by Covid - I wonder whether many fans will actually be able to afford to follow the game.

Of course, the very concept is disgraceful and disgusting in its shameless greed, and naked avarice.

Moreover, the "can't be relegated" clause means that there is no sanction, no punishment, no negative consequence, for failure: Long term, that does little for encouraging genuine competition, and will possibly faster a culture of self-congratulatory eternal friendlies.

The big clubs make their money primarily from TV revenue and sponsorships. Ticket sales are well down the pecking order.

So a Super League, a league that would not have to share TV and sponsorship money with any other league or organization, could afford to "go upmarket" and charge huge ticket prices. They expect (probably rightly) that there will always be enough fans willing to pay if the "experience" is "premium" enough.

The whole point of the Super League is to create a luxury, upper-class footballing experience from top to bottom. Rich owners, rich players, rich fans. The unwashed masses can save up for a handful of PPV matches per year or watch in a pub while drinking the officially licensed beverages (more revenue). And if you are willing to mortgage your house in order to afford season tickets, your club will happily take the money.

The fans in the grounds are very small amount of income compared to the TV money I’d have thought.
I’m not sure the super league is inevitable. I’d say there are lots of people against it. Who would be considered the big four or the big six anyhow? It’s not like it’s a forgone conclusion who the top four or six will be. Unlike Spain, Scotland or Germany where it’s more predictable.

I agree that it is not yet inevitable, and there are some powerful groups against the idea (FIFA and UEFA for starters, though we all know they are susceptible to bribery).

However, I do believe that if the richest 12-20 (or whatever) clubs in Europe agree to cooperate and are committed to it, it will probably eventually happen. The only way we could be sure of preventing such a league would be through the intervention of strong, independent, uncorrupted and incorruptible governing bodies. The FA and FIFA are simply not up to that standard.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

But ultimately, even TV revenue will depend on viewers able to afford to pay for it; the dire economic consequences (businesses will go to the wall, it will not simply be those in lower paid hospitality or manufacturing jobs who will lose their livelihood) of Covid - especially, in the UK, when added to the effects and impact of Brexit (for, no possible economic "deal" will offer anything as favourable as the status quo) - may be around for quite some time.

The TV companies model is predicated on unending economic growth; current circumstances suggest otherwise.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

But ultimately, even TV revenue will depend on viewers able to afford to pay for it; the dire economic consequences (businesses will go to the wall, it will not simply be those in lower paid hospitality or manufacturing jobs who will lose their livelihood) of Covid - especially, in the UK, when added to the effects and impact of Brexit (for, no possible economic "deal" will offer anything as favourable as the status quo) - may be around for quite some time.

The TV companies model is predicated on unending economic growth; current circumstances suggest otherwise.

Very true, and this could delay or even stymie a super league project.

On the other hand (call me cynical) I think the clubs believe, probably rightly, that there is a lot more money to be wrung out of fans, while pricing the poorest ones out of the market also gets rid of the majority of complainers. The government, and governing bodies, are run by fellow capitalists and they won't stand in the way of some hearty profiteering - especially if they can get a cut for their cooperation.

A closed Super League targeting more affluent fans would be a more recession-proof machine for printing money. So I don't see the upward spiral in the price of being a fan changing for the foreseeable future. At least, not at the elite level.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Read about the death of Nobby Stiles (another legend from the World Cup winning England team of 1966) whose death was reported today (a few months after the death of his team-mate, Jack Charlton), both aged 78.

Both had suffered from dementia, and families in both cases (and these families are old working class, steeped in footballing folklore and traditions) have suggested that the steep mental decline and the marked onset of the dementia suffered by both men might have been linked with the fact that both men had been considered accomplished at heading the ball in their playing days.

Over the past few years, I have seen this subject matter raised (usually by families, when a footballer died, often having suffered from severe or pronounced dementia) on a number of occasions, and have read several articles exploring the link - tentative as yet - between a career heading the ball, and subsequent brain injuries and the development of (early onset) dementia.

Eventually, I would not be surprised to see rules proposed, or imposed, if football is tardy and medical research sufficiently damning (and I suspect that this will happen) - such as age limits, the introduction of recommended head-gear, or regulation concerning the weight, and not just the composition of the materials, that go to make up the ball - governing the circumstances under which heading is permitted.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Read about the death of Nobby Stiles (another legend from the World Cup winning English team of 1966) whose death was reported today (a few months after the death of his team-mate, Jack Charlton), both aged 78.

Both had suffered from dementia, and families in both cases (and these families are old working class, steeped in footballing folklore and traditions) have suggested that the steep mental decline and the marked onset of the dementia suffered by both men might have been linked with the fact that both men had been considered accomplished at heading the ball in their playing days.

Over the past few years, I have seen this subject matter raised (usually by families, when a footballer died, often having suffered from severe or pronounced dementia) on a number of occasions, and have read several articles exploring the link - tentative as yet - between a career heading the ball, and subsequent brain injuries and the development of (early onset) dementia.

Eventually, I would not be surprised to see rules proposed, or imposed, if football is tardy and medical research sufficiently damning (and I suspect that this will happen) - such as age limits, the introduction of recommended head-gear, or regulation concerning the weight, and not just the composition of the materials, that go to make up the ball - governing the circumstances under which heading is permitted.

Yes I’d heard the sad news yesterday. Not many of the ‘66’ team left.
As a child I used to play football with my Dad. Always a proper leather ball. Probably 2-3 times the weight of today’s airflow balls. But still considerably lighter than those playing in the 60’s would have used.

So we have a momentous task this evening at Anfield. With no Antonio playing I have no hope of a result. Hopefully other players can step up.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Eventually, I would not be surprised to see rules proposed, or imposed, if football is tardy and medical research sufficiently damning (and I suspect that this will happen) - such as age limits, the introduction of recommended head-gear, or regulation concerning the weight, and not just the composition of the materials, that go to make up the ball - governing the circumstances under which heading is permitted.

It will happen eventually. But not until there is overwhelming evidence and heavy external pressure on football to change.

The evidence suggests that traumatic brain injuries are all but guaranteed for players of nearly all contact sports (and plenty of other sports). Sitting a player out for one match after a concussion is useless, and each successive concussion does increasing amounts of damage. The effects might not be felt for years or even decades, but they can be very serious.

The fear among the people who make their fortunes running professional sport is that medical science will eventually judge all such activities inherently dangerous - and will be able to prove exactly how much damage it does to the human brain. The liability implications are massive.

So we have a momentous task this evening at Anfield. With no Antonio playing I have no hope of a result. Hopefully other players can step up.

I expect a tough match.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It will happen eventually. But not until there is overwhelming evidence and heavy external pressure on football to change.

The evidence suggests that traumatic brain injuries are all but guaranteed for players of nearly all contact sports (and plenty of other sports). Sitting a player out for one match after a concussion is useless, and each successive concussion does increasing amounts of damage. The effects might not be felt for years or even decades, but they can be very serious.

The fear among the people who make their fortunes running professional sport is that medical science will eventually judge all such activities inherently dangerous - and will be able to prove exactly how much damage it does to the human brain. The liability implications are massive.



I expect a tough match.

Excellent post.

I have been following reports - not many, as yet, but increasing, and with an increasing body of anecdotal evidence (which, inevitably will come to be supported by medical evidence) - suggesting that heading the ball (especially in former times, a time when, as @Apple fanboy has reminded us, when the ball was a lot heavier and made from leather) is not especially good for one's long term mental health.

It - traumatic and permanent brain injury as a result of repeated impacts and concussions - is a subject (like the sex abuse of young players) that football has shied away from tackling.

I expect change will happen, and will be forced upon the clubs - and, as you say, it will come about as a result of research and medical science driving calls for legislative change (which may come from governments before toothless governing cotton on to the need to bring about changes in advance of legislative fiat) and possibly, costly lawsuits.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Good start for the Hammers at Anfield. A goal up. But we have an appalling record there so I shouldn’t worry too much @Lord Blackadder!

 

[michael9891]

Good start for the Hammers at Anfield. A goal up. But we have an appalling record there so I shouldn’t worry too much @Lord Blackadder!

Only Liverpool have their worst centre back pairing for a while. January can't come soon enough.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Good start for the Hammers at Anfield. A goal up. But we have an appalling record there so I shouldn’t worry too much @Lord Blackadder!

I expect Liverpool to score, particularly later as players tire and our work rate begins to tell. But I wouldn't put it past them to concede again either.

It's like 2016 all over again, in terms of trying to outscore the opposition, knowing we will leak goals.

Only Liverpool have their worst centre back pairing for a while. January can't come soon enough.

I am not sure how much difference that will make in the quality of our defending. But given how long Virgil will be out we probably do need the numbers if nothing else.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Only Liverpool have their worst centre back pairing for a while. January can't come soon enough.

Oh come on. We are missing our top scorer as well. I don’t think we can say Liverpool are the only ones with players missing.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I expect Liverpool to score, particularly later as players tire and our work rate begins to tell. But I wouldn't put it past them to concede again either.

It's like 2016 all over again, in terms of trying to outscore the opposition, knowing we will leak goals.

As do I. But we are playing to our strengths and your weaknesses currently.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Bad time to concede a penalty. Grrrr.

 

[michael9891]

Oh come on. We are missing our top scorer as well. I don’t think we can say Liverpool are the only ones with players missing.

Just stating a fact that Liverpool are the weakest they've been for a while and not in great form. So a win for them is far from a given.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Good start for the Hammers at Anfield. A goal up. But we have an appalling record there so I shouldn’t worry too much @Lord Blackadder!

Liverpool have equalised, which I would have expected.

Only Liverpool have their worst centre back pairing for a while. January can't come soon enough.

Agreed.

And, they have lost a number key defensive players to injury.

I expect Liverpool to score, particularly later as players tire and our work rate begins to tell. But I wouldn't put it past them to concede again either.

It's like 2016 all over again, in terms of trying to outscore the opposition, knowing we will leak goals.



I am not sure how much difference that will make in the quality of our defending. But given how long Virgil will be out we probably do need the numbers if nothing else.

Given the strength of their attacking options, I'd be very surprised if Liverpool do not manage to score a goal or two.

However, defensive frailties are much more likely to be a feature of their game ever since van Dijk was injured.

Oh come on. We are missing our top scorer as well. I don’t think we can say Liverpool are the only ones with players missing.

But, you bought intelligently - and shrewdly, with an eye for competence and value - during the transfer window.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Oh come on. We are missing our top scorer as well. I don’t think we can say Liverpool are the only ones with players missing.

Every team is getting hit with muscle injuries at an alarming rate. I don't like the five subs rule but it's probably necessary right now from a player health perspective.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Every team is getting hit with muscle injuries at an alarming rate. I don't like the five subs rule but it's probably necessary right now from a player health perspective.

Tbh Antonio has always missed a few games through injuries. If he didn’t he’d probably be playing for a top side.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

And Liverpool claim the three points, with a two-one victory.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I missed the second half, but saw the VAR no-goal. Debatable, but everything is nowadays....at any rate, Jota is turning out to be a very solid signing, the defense held, and Liverpool go 63 games unbeaten at Anfield, which is a hell of a record and a testament to Klopp's successful tenure. I've always been a big Shaqiri fan so it was good to see him playing and contributing in a big way.

It was not a comfortable win though, credit to West Ham and I'm sure Antonio would have made it even tougher for Liverpool had he been fit.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I missed the second half, but saw the VAR no-goal. Debatable, but everything is nowadays....at any rate, Jota is turning out to be a very solid signing, the defense held, and Liverpool go 63 games unbeaten at Anfield, which is a hell of a record and a testament to Klopp's successful tenure. I've always been a big Shaqiri fan so it was good to see him playing and contributing in a big way.

It was not a comfortable win though, credit to West Ham and I'm sure Antonio would have made it even tougher for Liverpool had he been fit.

Indeed he would. But you’d have defended better with your first choice centre half.

We played better in the first half. But I knew one goal was never going to be enough.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

In the end, West Ham played well, 2-2 would not have been an unfair result - VAR didn't matter, and Liverpool's superior firepower in attack made the difference.

 

[pachyderm]

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Aston Villa appear to have used up all their luck against Liverpool.

EDIT: Having been down 4-1, Villa scored twice after the 90th minute, making it really interesting but ultimately all for nought. 4-3: the most exciting football score.

Ings got injured though, that's a huge shame given his form. I hope it isn't serious.