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So is it time to talk about how over-rated Paul Pogba is?
I don't deny he has talent...but the level at which he has been lauded in recent years really belies the lack of effort he puts in, the mistakes he makes and arrogance that he displays.
Does he suffer from having too vocal a hype squad? I think he does.
To be fair to Pogba, he is still working his way back from his bout with COVID-19. It's really Ole's fault for starting him and expecting him to be productive for a full 90 minutes. He's done pretty well as a sub over the past few weeks, and that's the role he should continue to play.

He was also the wrong player to start against Arsenal in general. He is too slow and casual with the ball, and Arsenal's pressing caused him constant problems. Donny van de Beek is so quick and decisive and has the ability to dribble out of trouble, he really needs to start every match.

I have come around to the line of Pogba criticism that states he's not a foundational player, but more of a cherry on top. The problem is United need him to be a foundational player, and he simply is not it. In hindsight, United should have sold him to Madrid when they had the chance.
 
To be fair to Pogba, he is still working his way back from his bout with COVID-19. It's really Ole's fault for starting him and expecting him to be productive for a full 90 minutes. He's done pretty well as a sub over the past few weeks, and that's the role he should continue to play.

He was also the wrong player to start against Arsenal in general. He is too slow and casual with the ball, and Arsenal's pressing caused him constant problems. Donny van de Beek is so quick and decisive and has the ability to dribble out of trouble, he really needs to start every match.

I have come around to the line of Pogba criticism that states he's not a foundational player, but more of a cherry on top. The problem is United need him to be a foundational player, and he simply is not it. In hindsight, United should have sold him to Madrid when they had the chance.


Your analysis is pretty similar to the way I would regard Mesut Ozil; a skilful player, but a luxury, a "cherry on the top" as you phrase it.

Such players can be exceptionally difficult to integrate into a team that plays according to a specific "system", firstly, - not least as they often see themselves as a bit better than, or floating elegantly above, the discipline and focus necessary to be an integral and successful part of (or cog in) such a system, and secondly, while they are a skilful luxury, to expect a team to be created, crafted, built or constructed around them, is too much to ask, on the part of the team, for everyone else must be expected to sublimate themselves for the aforementioned "genius".

And, equally telling, it is a huge ask of the player, indeed, not least because the price of such a role demands consistency, responsibility, hard work, and a consistent delivery of reliable performance, (something luxury players", or "cherries on top" are not known for, they prefer the unpredictability of being able to indulge themselves as pure artists, rather than shoulder the responsibility of performing regularly as the team's talisman), and places a serious responsibility on their shoulders by expecting them to deliver excellent performances regularly.

Most such players are neither willing nor capable of playing either of these roles: Either taking the responsibility of being the fulcrum around which the team revolves, and exists to service, or playing a constructive and responsible role - and performing consistently - as part of an agreed system; both require a lot of hard, grafting, work. Instead, they prefer to be indulged so that they can perform and dazzle and star on their terms, if and when they choose, and turn in a few scintillating and stunning performances over the course of a season.
 
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To be fair to Pogba, he is still working his way back from his bout with COVID-19. It's really Ole's fault for starting him and expecting him to be productive for a full 90 minutes. He's done pretty well as a sub over the past few weeks, and that's the role he should continue to play.

He was also the wrong player to start against Arsenal in general. He is too slow and casual with the ball, and Arsenal's pressing caused him constant problems. Donny van de Beek is so quick and decisive and has the ability to dribble out of trouble, he really needs to start every match.

I have come around to the line of Pogba criticism that states he's not a foundational player, but more of a cherry on top. The problem is United need him to be a foundational player, and he simply is not it. In hindsight, United should have sold him to Madrid when they had the chance.

Yep; "flair player" isn't really a thing anymore, but at Man Utd Pogba has been a player that can add a little bit extra rather than serve as the rock everything is built on.

As a result Pogba 2.0 has turned out to have been overrated as a Man Utd signing (especially for the price, which wasn't his fault). His performances for France, however, suggest he is a substantially better player than what we see from him in a Man Utd shirt. I think it's fair to say that Ole has failed to get the best out of him; at the same time the squad he has to work with presents all sorts of challenges in terms of finding round holes for round pegs for each position.

It is still debatable whether he is, or will ever be, a leader on the pitch. But that is not to say he can't be very successful at the highest level when he is fit, his head is in the right place, and he is playing in a position and with a squad that suits him. I suspect he will need to leave Man Utd to hit that level.
 
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As a result Pogba 2.0 has turned out to have been overrated as a Man Utd signing (especially for the price, which wasn't his fault). His performances for France, however, suggest he is a substantially better player than what we see from him in a Man Utd shirt. I think it's fair to say that Ole has failed to get the best out of him; at the same time the squad he has to work with presents all sorts of challenges in terms of finding round holes for round pegs for each position.
With France he had Kante and Matuidi alongside him in midfield to carry a lot of the weight and do a lot of the running for him. That France squad in general is so strong and so deep, he really is the cherry on top for them. United does not have that solid base he can play off of: Fred and Matic just aren't good enough in those deeper lying roles to support him.

The Ozil comp is pretty interesting. I don't think Pogba has been as big of a bust for United as Ozil has been for Arsenal, but the comparison is not far off. At least Pogba's contract is running down, though United has offered numerous players foolish extensions over the past few years. Not sure who would be interested in buying him in this uncertain economic climate. Real, PSG, and Juventus seem the only vaguely realistic shouts.
 
Diogo Jota has bagged a hat trick. He was limping a little when subbed off, hopefully nothing but a slight knock, but he's been on fire lately. A clean sheet as well, which is more exciting to me than the five-goal haul.

A great result for Liverpool but it's still just the group stages, so a long way to go and much more dangerous opponents lie ahead.
 
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Diogo Jota has bagged a hat trick. He was limping a little when subbed off, hopefully nothing but a slight knock, but he's been on fire lately. A clean sheet as well, which is more exciting to me than the five-goal haul.

A great result for Liverpool but it's still just the group stages, so a long way to go and much more dangerous opponents lie ahead.
If you like I can add him to my fantasy team. He’ll not score for weeks then. It is the kiss of death!
 
Wow, that penalty call in the Chelsea - Rennes match has to be one of the worst penalty calls I've ever seen - and it was made with the "aid" of VAR.

I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that we are getting near to the point where penalty decisions these days would be just as accurate if decided by coin flip.
Even better - I could make him my captain, then he'll get injured and be out for the season!
Perish the thought!
 
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@Lord Blackadder - I went to the last home match for Nashville SC last night. Lot's fun even though we lost, 0 - 1, to FC Dallas. Nice, small crowd in a cavernous Nissan Stadium.

Figured we'd lose when I saw our starting line up. Obviously resting some folks for the play off run.
 
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@Lord Blackadder - I went to the last home match for Nashville SC last night. Lot's fun even though we lost, 0 - 1, to FC Dallas. Nice, small crowd in a cavernous Nissan Stadium.

Figured we'd lose when I saw our starting line up. Obviously resting some folks for the play off run.
It's been too long since I went to a match in Columbus, and now I won't make it before the new stadium opens. Hopefully I can make it next season, under better circumstances.
 
Will Ole lose his job if he fails to get a result at Everton this weekend? He has looked tactically overmatched again in the past two matches, with the defensive breakdowns yesterday for the two goals particularly alarming. I don't see any end to this pattern of temporary progress and inevitable regression unless something changes.

I personally would consider taking a middle ground: make some big changes in the coaching staff. I think Ole is a good man-manager and his vision for the club is sound, but his tactics are rudimentary and he still hasn't got the hang of how and when to make substitutions to change a match. Yes, I know the squad isn't perfect and Ed Woodward failed to deliver a single player Ole wanted over the summer, but they do have a good enough squad to be competitive wherever they play. They added players who can conceivably break down a low block in Bruno and van de Beek, but still look clueless when chasing a match against an organized defense.

Supposedly the club is in talks with Poch as we speak, so... we shall see.
 
Will Ole lose his job if he fails to get a result at Everton this weekend? He has looked tactically overmatched again in the past two matches, with the defensive breakdowns yesterday for the two goals particularly alarming. I don't see any end to this pattern of temporary progress and inevitable regression unless something changes.

I personally would consider taking a middle ground: make some big changes in the coaching staff. I think Ole is a good man-manager and his vision for the club is sound, but his tactics are rudimentary and he still hasn't got the hang of how and when to make substitutions to change a match. Yes, I know the squad isn't perfect and Ed Woodward failed to deliver a single player Ole wanted over the summer, but they do have a good enough squad to be competitive wherever they play. They added players who can conceivably break down a low block in Bruno and van de Beek, but still look clueless when chasing a match against an organized defense.

Supposedly the club is in talks with Poch as we speak, so... we shall see.

Yes, Mr Pochettino has been disquietingly available for some time, and he may be due to make a re-appearnace in the Premiership some time soon.

However, - and I regretted how he was treated at Spurs, and regretted that his tenure was less successful in terms of trophies than it might have been, as I think he brought a thin, for, they lacked strength in depth, but very talented Spurs team very far - I think it worth noting that Spurs actually won nothing - neither titles nor silverware - while he was in charge.

By way of contrast (yes, it is early days yet, and matters have a very long way to go), I would point out that Mr Arteta has already managed to win the FA Cup with Arsenal.
 
Will Ole lose his job if he fails to get a result at Everton this weekend? He has looked tactically overmatched again in the past two matches, with the defensive breakdowns yesterday for the two goals particularly alarming. I don't see any end to this pattern of temporary progress and inevitable regression unless something changes.

I personally would consider taking a middle ground: make some big changes in the coaching staff. I think Ole is a good man-manager and his vision for the club is sound, but his tactics are rudimentary and he still hasn't got the hang of how and when to make substitutions to change a match. Yes, I know the squad isn't perfect and Ed Woodward failed to deliver a single player Ole wanted over the summer, but they do have a good enough squad to be competitive wherever they play. They added players who can conceivably break down a low block in Bruno and van de Beek, but still look clueless when chasing a match against an organized defense.

Supposedly the club is in talks with Poch as we speak, so... we shall see.
Given time, Ole might develop into a manager who can win major trophies. Thus far he has not proven he can do that, and modern football does not wait for managers to develop in the saddle at this level.

My personal opinion from the start has been that Ole was a feel-good appointment with enough managerial experience to be credible, and one that would not be criticized by fans due to his "legend" status (ugh, I hate that term) with the club. I assumed that he was a competent manager but would not be able to cut it at the highest level, and after a calculatedly decent interval minding the shop he'd be replaced by manager with a proven record. Poch doesn't have a stuffed trophy cabinet but I don't put as much stock in that as some; I think he has what it takes to win given the tools.

Speaking as a Liverpool fan, the worst thing I can say about Ole is that I'd prefer him to remain in charge at Man Utd. Looking at who manages the teams currently making up the top 10 in the Premier League table, is Ole conclusively equal or superior to any of them? They are all either "big names" with plenty of of elite level success behind them or men who have risen purely on merit after achieving notable success at "smaller" clubs. Ole may yet join that latter group but he was catapulted into the hot seat at Man Utd before his time.
 
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Given time, Ole might develop into a manager who can win major trophies. Thus far he has not proven he can do that, and modern football does not wait for managers to develop in the saddle at this level.

My personal opinion from the start has been that Ole was a feel-good appointment with enough managerial experience to be credible, and one that would not be criticized by fans due to his "legend" status (ugh, I hate that term) with the club. I assumed that he was a competent manager but would not be able to cut it at the highest level, and after a calculatedly decent interval minding the shop he'd be replaced by manager with a proven record. Poch doesn't have a stuffed trophy cabinet but I don't put as much stock in that as some; I think he has what it takes to win given the tools.

Speaking as a Liverpool fan, the worst thing I can say about Ole is that I'd prefer him to remain in charge at Man Utd. Looking at who manages the teams currently making up the top 10 in the Premier League table, is Ole conclusively equal or superior to any of them? They are all either "big names" with plenty of of elite level success behind them or men who have risen purely on merit after achieving notable success at "smaller" clubs. Ole may yet join that latter group but he was catapulted into the hot seat at Man Utd before his time.
Very good and fair-minded post.

Actually, I remain astounded that Pochettino wasn't given the tools - by way of extra resources - to strengthen what was a very fine team at Spurs; he brought them very far, if anything, they over-achieved on his watch, and, with some additional support, they would have been capable of winning at the highest level.

Re OGS, he is a decent and honourable man, and will probably make a very good manager in time; I suspect that sentimental reasons saw him pitchforked into management at manchester United a little to early in his managerial career; a few more years as understudy at a senior club, or prove success at someplace less well known, might have been better for him, before he was offered (and accepted) the position of manager at Manchester United.
 
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Personally I think Manchester United is one of those jobs where you will always be compared to the Alex Ferguson years. At that the good Alex Ferguson years!

Whoever takes that job has a lot going against them. I doubt anyone will be considered successful enough for a while!
Winning the FA cup and a top four place is success at Arsenal. At Manchester United you’ll need to win the league and a pretty good showing in the CL year on year.
A number of the players they have brought in haven’t been at the required standard. Others like Pogba and McGuire are just a nightmare to manage. Both seem to have a fair amount of baggage.
 
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Personally I think Manchester United is one of those jobs where you will always be compared to the Alex Ferguson years. At that the good Alex Ferguson years!

Whoever takes that job has a lot going against them. I doubt anyone will be considered successful enough for a while!
Winning the FA cup and a top four place is success at Arsenal. At Manchester United you’ll need to win the league and a pretty good showing in the CL year on year.
A number of the players they have brought in haven’t been at the required standard. Others like Pogba and McGuire are just a nightmare to manage. Both seem to have a fair amount of baggage.

Good point.

Actually, until he was eclipsed by Alex Ferguson, previous Manchester United managers had to contend with the legacy and long shadow cast by Matt Busby, just as the ghost of Bill Shankly loomed over Liverpool for a time, although the successes of the club in the 1980s under Bob Paisley, & later, Kenny Dalgliesh put that into perspective.

Time, and distance will deal with this, when it will become part of the club's history, lore and tradition, a legend to be dreamed about and admired, but no longer imposing a burden on current managers by setting a standard that is almost impossible to meet or live up to.
 
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Good point.

Actually, until he was eclipsed by Alex Ferguson, previous Manchester United managers had to contend with the legacy and long shadow cast by Matt Busby, just as the ghost of Bill Shankly loomed over Liverpool for a time, although the successes of the club in the 1980s under Kenny Dalgliesh put that into perspective.

Time, and distance will deal with this, when it will become part of the club's history, lore and tradition, a legend to be dreamed about and admired, but no longer imposing a burden on current managers by setting a standard that is almost impossible to meet or live up to.
The problem is new managers are compared to treble winning Alex Ferguson. Not when he started and they were struggling.
 
Personally I think Manchester United is one of those jobs where you will always be compared to the Alex Ferguson years. At that the good Alex Ferguson years!

...and nobody will ever achieve that level again in the foreseeable future. The same goes for Shankly and Paisley at Liverpool, as @Scepticalscribe mentioned. That's a once in two lifetimes' level of success. Everyone knows it's silly to compare current managers with those historical figures. But we all do it anyway. It's already happened with Klopp. He's earned recognition as one of Liverpool's great managers, but he is a long way from accumulating Shankly or Paisley's long-term track record. Football is different now anyway, far more short-termist.

Rich clubs cast long shadows, current players and managers are judged against historical figures who played or managed in different eras and are seen through rose-tinted glasses . As people have pointed out a million times, had a young Fergie been hired today he would probably have been sacked by Man Utd long before he won his first title.

Whoever takes that job has a lot going against them. I doubt anyone will be considered successful enough for a while!
Winning the FA cup and a top four place is success at Arsenal. At Manchester United you’ll need to win the league and a pretty good showing in the CL year on year.

Liverpool fans had to learn to reduce expectations for a long time after their previous title. Some never learned. It could be a prolonged period before Man Utd win a major trophy again, and even longer to experience regular success- even if they "escape" to a Super League.
 
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Actually, that last comment raises the possibility that if a Super League comes into being it could end up getting dominated by just a few clubs...and I would find that hilarious. Imagine a Super League where Real Madrid wins 40% of the titles. Imagine a league where Chelsea or Juventus become perennial whipping boys - never getting relegated, but never winning anything or even challenging for honors. A league Where PSG are considered a "feeder club." A league where Manchester United and Liverpool are considered "solid midtable sides."

THAT would be funny. Not for fans of the those clubs, but for the rest of the footballing world.
 
Actually, that last comment raises the possibility that if a Super League comes into being it could end up getting dominated by just a few clubs...and I would find that hilarious. Imagine a Super League where Real Madrid wins 40% of the titles. Imagine a league where Chelsea or Juventus become perennial whipping boys - never getting relegated, but never winning anything or even challenging for honors. A league Where PSG are considered a "feeder club." A league where Manchester United and Liverpool are considered "solid midtable sides."

THAT would be funny. Not for fans of the those clubs, but for the rest of the footballing world.
Yes that would be kind of funny. Accept for the state it would leave the rest of the league’s. I hope it never happens.
 
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Actually, that last comment raises the possibility that if a Super League comes into being it could end up getting dominated by just a few clubs...and I would find that hilarious. Imagine a Super League where Real Madrid wins 40% of the titles. Imagine a league where Chelsea or Juventus become perennial whipping boys - never getting relegated, but never winning anything or even challenging for honors. A league Where PSG are considered a "feeder club." A league where Manchester United and Liverpool are considered "solid midtable sides."

THAT would be funny. Not for fans of the those clubs, but for the rest of the footballing world.
As a fan of a "feeder club", "perennial struggler", and occasional "solid mid-table club", who are (if they win their next game) poised to go top of the Premier League, I like the way that looks/sounds.
 
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As a fan of a "feeder club", "perennial struggler", and occasional "solid mid-table club", who are (if they win their next game) poised to go top of the Premier League, I like the way that looks/sounds.
I figured you would!

I think a lot of fans of clubs outside the "Big Six" (in other words, just about everyone in the football pyramid!) would feel a great sense of schadenfreude watching clubs that broke away to form a Super League struggling in their new home.

But the dark side is that those clubs want to leave not to win trophies, but to lock themselves into an impregnable fortress of wealth - wealth they will essentially be stealing away from all the clubs outside the Super League. The owners don't care if they win - at least, that is not their top priority. They just want to create an exclusive little fountain of money that nobody else can touch.
 
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