The *COMPLETE* list of 27" 5K Displays?

[joevt]

What ioreg command do you use to find this? I'm thinking maybe you could run this on a display model when M5 hits the stores.

If you have access and a method for saving the produced text file, then this will get all the info:

ioreg -fliw0 > ioregall.txt

This one doesn't save any properties - it just gets the list of nodes:

ioreg -iw0 > ioreg.txt

Then search for DPIn.

This M4 example has three Thunderbolt controllers (one per Thunderbolt port), each with two DisplayPort In Adapters.

    | |   +-o acio0@81F00000  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:AppleARMIODevice>
    | |   | +-o AppleThunderboltHALType7  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:AppleThunderboltGenericHAL:AppleThunderboltHALGenericACIO:AppleThunderboltHALType7>
    | |   | | +-o AppleThunderboltNHIType7  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltNHI:AppleThunderboltNHI:AppleThunderboltNHIGenericACIO:AppleThunderboltNHIType7>
    | |   | |   +-o IOThunderboltControllerType7  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltController:IOThunderboltControllerGenericACIO:IOThunderboltControllerType7>
    | |   | |     |   +-o IOThunderboltPort@5  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltNub:IOThunderboltPort>
    | |   | |     |   | +-o AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS2  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltTunnelDriver:AppleThunderboltDPAdapterFamilyBase:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterBase:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterCM:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS2>
    | |   | |     |   +-o IOThunderboltPort@6  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltNub:IOThunderboltPort>
    | |   | |     |     +-o AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS2  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:IOThunderboltTunnelDriver:AppleThunderboltDPAdapterFamilyBase:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterBase:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterCM:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS:AppleThunderboltDPInAdapterOS2>

    | |   +-o acio1@89F00000  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:AppleARMIODevice>
                -- same as above

    | |   +-o acio2@91F00000  <class IORegistryEntry:IOService:AppleARMIODevice>
                -- same as above

 

[tenthousandthings]

I was happy to see Apple put out a 120-Hz 5K 27" display, something quite a number of Mac Rumors members wanted...and disappointed to see it at a price I suspect very few will pay. But it's got more going on than that. Which raises a question.

I take it 120-Hz 5K will probably mean Thunderbolt 5, and even Thunderbolt 4 added to the cost of a display over USB-C. A higher refresh rate adds cost, and such a display as yet targets a niche market.

Those of you with a sense of what features tend to be associated with what added end user cost, my question to you...let's say ASUS, which has a 5K 60Hz 27" USB-C display that, last I checked (been awhile) was around $800, decides to put out a higher end version identical except for 120Hz refresh rate and Thunderbolt 5. What do you estimate that would likely cost?

No mini-LED or extreme brightness, just those changes. What is the premium to get that likely to be in non-Apple competitors? Any thoughts?

The ROG 5K 165Hz/330Hz gaming monitor from ASUS is $849, a $150 premium over $799 for the ProArt 5K 60Hz. Neither has Thunderbolt.

For the many people elsewhere (in the news threads) who have been LOL at the price of the XDR, here are the two ASUS ProArt MiniLEDs (both are 31.5" -- they don't make a 27"):

• PA32UCXR 4K 60Hz 2304-zone MiniLED 1000/1600 nits Thunderbolt 4 $2,999
• PA32UCG 4K 120Hz 1152-zone MiniLED 1000/1600 nits Thunderbolt 3 $3,199

The bottom line is MiniLED backlights and their timing controllers are expensive. At least they are at present. We don't know the price of the LG UltraGear evo 27GM950B (or the Hisense 27 GX Pro), but we will before June.

The MSI price cited at CES ($899) is an outlier, we know little else about it, it might not have the same backlight as in the LG and the Hisense, or the Apple.

 

[dropadrop]

I also figured that anyone selling a 5k 27” miniLed was waiting to see where Apple set their price for the identical panel that they are all going to use

This was my thinking as well. However the MSI and LG displays are strongly branded as gaming devices and I’m not sure that market is willing to pay anything close to XDR prices.

So to target the dissapointed Apple users that are not willing to stretch to 3000+€ for an XDR I would expect:
- something visually pleasing
- talk about color accuracy and smoothness rather then FPS

With the current marketing the Apple pricing won’t tell them anything else then that Apple’s pricing team is bold.

 

[CWallace]

I also figured that anyone selling a 5k 27” miniLed was waiting to see where Apple set their price for the identical panel that they are all going to use

I would hope they knew that Apple's pricing was going to be high due to the use of more premium materials with higher manufacturing costs (machined aluminum cases instead of molded plastic), higher rejection rates on panels and electronics and the ~35% margins Apple traditionally targets with their hardware products.

 

[Charlie Bonesx]

However the MSI and LG displays are strongly branded as gaming devices and I’m not sure that market is willing to pay anything close to XDR prices.

well that's good news to me because neither am I!

 

[Pezimak]

Short new video of LG's new upcoming 27" 5K mini LED monitor:

Think it's in German?

 

[CWallace]

Yes it is German, but YouTube's auto-translate functionality handles it fine.

So a matte display and no Thunderbolt, but it works fine with his Mac mini and the 1440p dual-mode will be nice for games since there is no need for a GPU to render at 5120x2880 and then half-scale it like when in HiDPI mode.

And he noted in the comments that there is yet no pricing information provided by LG.

 

[taphil]

LG matte is a no go for many. The LG 32" 6K has a matte finish that gets poor reviews.

 

[Charlie Bonesx]

LG matte is a no go for many. The LG 32" 6K has a matte finish that gets poor reviews.

My current and previous monitor were both cheap LGs and the finish doesn’t bother me at all.

Haven’t had glass since 2011 iMac

 

[mindfulmonk]

Yes it is German, but YouTube's auto-translate functionality handles it fine.

So a matte display and no Thunderbolt, but it works fine with his Mac mini and the 1440p dual-mode will be nice for games since there is no need for a GPU to render at 5120x2880 and then half-scale it like when in HiDPI mode.

And he noted in the comments that there is yet no pricing information provided by LG.

It is sad that most of these upcoming 5k screens don't have thunderbolt as that will prevent running dual 5k setup.

 

[thenewepic]

as that will prevent running dual 5k setup

those who want dual 5K setup can buy a separate Thunderbolt dock.

 

[Charlie Bonesx]

those who want dual 5K setup can buy a separate Thunderbolt dock.

and still have $$ to spare

 

[gilby101]

It is sad that most of these upcoming 5k screens don't have thunderbolt as that will prevent running dual 5k setup.

Isn't TB4 good enough for daisy chain of 5K screens? A decent proportion of screens are TB4 with daisy chain. Not the cheapest, of course.

 

[mindfulmonk]

those who want dual 5K setup can buy a separate Thunderbolt dock.

Sorry, but how does a thunderbolt dock help here? You can connect 2x5k to a thunderbolt dock only on the new m5 pro/max machine as per the spec

Supports up to two external displays over a single Thunderbolt port

Isn't TB4 good enough for daisy chain of 5K screens? A decent proportion of screens are TB4 with daisy chain. Not the cheapest, of course.

Previous years we had quite a few TB4 monitors(all 60hz) 5k BenQ PD2730s, ViewFinity S9, VP2788-5K, but the ones from this year Asus XG27JCG, Asus PA27JCV, LG 27GM950B are all a mix of hdmi 2.1 and displayport 1.4/2.1, no thunderbolt 4 or 5.

 

[joevt]

Are the Thunderbolt controllers in the M5 Max modified to have 4 DisplayPort In adapters?

If this is true, then it may be possible to connect two LG UltraFine 5K displays to the same Thunderbolt port using a Thunderbolt 5 hub/dock (since each LG UltraFine 5K uses two DisplayPort HBR2 connections to achieve 5K60).

 

[PaulD-UK]

.

 

[tenthousandthings]

Sorry, but how does a thunderbolt dock help here? You can connect 2x5k to a thunderbolt dock only on the new m5 pro/max machine as per the spec

Supports up to two external displays over a single Thunderbolt port


Previous years we had quite a few TB4 monitors(all 60hz) 5k BenQ PD2730s, ViewFinity S9, VP2788-5K, but the ones from this year Asus XG27JCG, Asus PA27JCV, LG 27GM950B are all a mix of hdmi 2.1 and displayport 1.4/2.1, no thunderbolt 4 or 5.

IMHO, you're reading too much into the rush at CES this year to introduce the new dual-mode, high-refresh rate 5K displays to the gaming market. Thunderbolt and daisy chain is an added cost the gaming market won't tolerate.

It would be very surprising if ASUS doesn't introduce a new ProArt soon -- perhaps at Computex in May. Others will follow. LG put Thunderbolt 5 into the UltraFine evo 6K last year, but BenQ's new MA270S (where the "MA" series indicates "Mac") 5K 70Hz is still Thunderbolt 4 in 2026. MacRumors has video up about it.

The big question is will LG do a Thunderbolt 5 120Hz+ UltraFine evo 5K with MiniLED to compete directly with Apple? I think perhaps not. I think they can strip the price down in the UltraGear, but those costs will balloon in the UltraFine when they start adding features. Apple's XDR pricing suddenly just seems like the usual Apple premium.

Look at it this way. The display industry is notoriously volatile. Apple's investment in the Studio Display XDR creates stability -- it means these high-quality 27" MiniLED backlights are going to be produced in volume for a set period at a set price. That means others can now order them, bringing the price down and rewarding Apple's investment with even better profit margins. The gaming industry benefits first, because they aren't competing directly with Apple. ASUS and a few others will compete with Apple, but it will involve the usual tradeoffs and arguments.

 

[tenthousandthings]

I put this in one of the news threads, but it seems relevant here, in terms of gauging how improved the new 5K XDR is over the old 6K XDR...

It’s a 64x36 grid. Previously it was 32x18.

Studio Display XDR 5K (2026)
5120 divided by 64 = 80
2880 divided by 36 = 80
Each zone is 80x80 pixels.

Pro Display XDR 6K (2019)
6016 divided by 32 = 188
3384 divided by 18 = 188
Each zone is 188x188 pixels.

And it’s not just the size of the zones, MiniLED technology has improved quite a bit in the last few years (not to mention since 2019), it’s more precise.

I get that going from 32" 6K to 27" 5K is a step backward, but in all other respects it’s a step forward.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@tenthousandthings
Is there any indication what sort of screen technology Apple is using for the Studio XDR?
I came across this analysis of the pixel differences between IPS and IPS Black pixel panels:

"A variation of IPS was developed, called FFS (for Fringe-field switching) that attracted only a little attention, until Apple adopted it as it gave better performance than IPS.
Panels that are described in specifications as ‘IPS’ are not infrequently actually based on FFS in reality.

At Display Week in 2023, Merck... presented papers on significant improvements in contrast for FFS LCDs.
...the development of LG’s IPS Black might be related to the new ‘licristal XtraBright UB-FFS’ LC material developed by Merck...

Image: Merck/EMD See the above link for description.
It has since been confirmed by industry sources ...that Merck and LG Display collaborated on the development of IPS Black.

As well as changing the liquid crystal material itself, a significant change has been a move from a ‘normally off’ mode to ‘normally on’.
In other words, traditional IPS showed a black pixel when no drive voltage was applied, while with IPS Black, no drive voltage means a white pixel. That will mean that damaged panels with driver or bonding failures will show white streaks on the display, rather than the black symptoms that have traditionally been seen on damaged panels.

The use of negative mode panels and the new material means response times are not yet as good as the positive mode panels, so IPS Black is not yet suitable for gamers, but no doubt LGD, ...Merck and others are working on how to fix that issue."

Although Apple may be using IPS Black for MacBook Pros (with their 'slow response times'), it seems that the M1 iMac 24" with failing screen panels are failing 'black', which indicates an IPS panel.

However it will be interesting if the 'slow response time' and 'white stuck pixel' problems have been solved, and the Studio XDR (and maybe even the new Studio Display) are IPS Black - with the Studio XDR benefiting from what they now call UB-FFS (Ultra-brightness)? 🙂

This para from Merck's paper seems to show that getting 1000/2000 nits needs IPS black+UB-FFS?
"The pixel structures of UB-FFS technology exactly match those of FFS. However, the preferred orientation in UB-FFS is virtually perpendicular to the strip-type pixel electrodes, being rotated by 90° in comparison to FFS.

In the “off” state, the molecules are aligned perpendicular to the electrode in the plane.
In the “on” state, the molecules switch parallel to the electrode within the plane owing to the vertical dipole moment.

All in all, the molecules are able to remain better in the plane and will line up much less along the electrode edges compared to FFS technology.
As the result, they will allow a significantly higher light transmittance per pixel."

Edited with additional info.

 

[thenewepic]

You can connect 2x5k to a thunderbolt dock only on the new m5 pro/max machine as per the spec

that's not true. M1 Pro+, M2 Pro+, M3 Pro+, and whole families of M4 and M5 can drive two 5K@60 displays through a TB4 dock:

 

[mindfulmonk]

that's not true. M1 Pro+, M2 Pro+, M3 Pro+, and whole families of M4 and M5 can drive two 5K@60 displays through a TB4 dock:
View attachment 2611800

Sorry, you are correct that if the monitors are 5k60hz and thunderbolt 4 then yes the dual setup will work.

These new monitors that are coming out with 5k 120hz+ will not work in a dual setup and as they are not thunderbolt 4/5. I wrote that up here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-asus-xg27jcg-5k-120hz-on-m2-m4-macs.2478849/

 

[tenthousandthings]

@tenthousandthings
Is there any indication what sort of screen technology Apple is using for the Studio XDR?

This may not answer your question, but Apple's white paper is now available:

https://www.apple.com/studio-display-xdr/pdf/Studio_Display_XDR_Technology_Overview_White_Paper.pdf

There are various components including "a newly developed cadmium-free quantum dot-based optical film stack, as well as a new set of color filters on the LCD panel itself. The optical film stack includes a color-conversion film that controls precise quantum dot particle size for color consistency and features a unique internal microstructure for long-term performance stability."

In the timing controller (TCON) section, they say "Apple-designed" but they don't say that here. They also say the mini-LED backlight system is "proprietary," but they don't say that either. Just that it's "newly developed" -- so we can probably infer something from that.

The section on color gamut is interesting, I gather it means it can display full coverage of both P3 and Adobe RGB simultaneously, and it can work in BT.2020 even if it can't display the entire gamut.

 

[thenewepic]

These new monitors that are coming out with 5k 120hz+ will not work in a dual setup and as they are not thunderbolt 4/5. I wrote that up here

Now I got your point. I agree, it's very interesting behaviour. I think that supporting of dual 4K@60 but not 5K@60 on mentioned docks can be explained by tech limitations of these docks. I assume that since both DP streams in TB4 must be greatly reduced to fit in 40Gbit bandwidth, such reduced streams cannot be terminated on the dock's DP ports and must be tunneled to the supported monitor.
So I wonder if the host computer is M4Pro+/M5Pro+ could the docks handle dual 5K@60 non-TB displays? I assume, they could.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@mindfulmonk @thenewepic
The TB4 video spec is two channels of DP1.4 4K/60 uncompressed.
Only one of these channels can be terminated with a DP 1.4 output socket on a TB4 dock (or converted to 4K/60 HDMI).
More than one DP or HDMI port indicates a dock with DisplayLink or MST functionality (for Windows, not Mac).

If that DP port isn't used, then that channel's, and/or the other channel's bandwidth can be fed on out via any two of the three (max) downstream TB4 dock's ports.

The two channel's bandwidth can be aggregated into a single (or twin*) channel output through a single downstream TB4 port - which can feed up to a single 6016x3456 6K/60 monitor uncompressed (just, very just, when using MacOS - Apple's secret Pro XDR sauce).

With DSC you can feed two 5K/60 monitors from two TB4 out ports, but (most likely) not the DP 1.4 socket, because of the conversion hardware in the dock being 4K/60 - for PC users...

However if you connect two DSC-capable USB-C 5K/60 monitors to the two downstream TB4 ports - using 8K-specified USB-C cables or adapters (with 4 HBR3 video channels), then the DSC bandwidth needed for each monitor is below half the available TB4 bandwidth, and everything works fine. 🙂

The vital factor is that the USB-C cables to the (USB-C) monitors must be fed from a TB4/5 port from a TB4/5 dock or Mac. That is the only protocol by which the Mac will deliver the two DSC data-streams via a single port.

* Apple has always used two DP 1.2 '<4K' steams for it's 5K iMac's, feeding half the screen L/R with two separate images, each half from one of the streams. It continues to support this for the original GPUs in the Mac Pro 7.1, which don't support DSC.

 

[mindfulmonk]

@PaulD-UK Do you know how dual 5k120hz monitors should behave when connected the way you describe? My expectation was that they would appear as 5k60hz on the mac, but instead I got different behaviour between a mac mini and a macbook air(both m4).

A few people suggested to me that the requirement for thunderbolt4 is due to how the thunderbolt controller is implemented on the macs(and I think those commands from @joevt hint at that too?)