The dark side of iBooks 2 / Textbooks

[Mrg02d]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

I'm finishing up an electrical engineering degree and can say that having technology to help with the learning process makes things so much better. I am a listener and watch presentations. Telling students how current flows through a conductor falls short of showing them. That's just one example.

Another great tool is video demos. My school, FSU, is very poor and we wind up with professors that simply lecture crap right out of the text book, word for fricken word. That's quite a chore to keep up with. My mind wondes all over the place. I just whip out my iPad or smart phone and start looking up more information on the subject. I can find much more talented people out there describing something.

Imagine a school with no money for labware or expensive demo units for science. They, along with the kids, can only imagine what certain things look and sound like when they happen. Thanks to YouTube, I can see what thermite explosions look like or a tesla coil that plays music in high fidelity.

As a soon to be EE (hopefully, God willing), I could lose myself to my thoughts with the possiblities that this could bring.

I was kind of an idiot when I was a kid. I was told I could be good as an actor, but not any sort of science or tech position. I had a hard time focusing on the books and figuring out the meaning of the material. I also didn't care for it. One day, people came from who knows where (I was 5 or 6 so I don't remember ). They had batteries, lightbulbs, and wires for US to play with! My whole world changed when I figured out how to light a lightbulb with little instruction. I then figured out how to get a higher current to flow through the bulb and learned that it glowed brighter. My teachers were amazed watching me do that considering what they thought of me...Now I am a year away from being an EE and already am nearing a year of experience in the power field. How's that for being an actor?

We need to find new ways of reaching out to and inspiring the new generations. You never know how you will flip someone upside down with technology.

Matt

 

[Hephaestus]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

I'm finishing up an electrical engineering degree and can say that having technology to help with the learning process makes things so much better. I am a listener and watch presentations. Telling students how current flows through a conductor falls short of showing them. That's just one example.

Another great tool is video demos. My school, FSU, is very poor and we wind up with professors that simply lecture crap right out of the text book, word for fricken word. That's quite a chore to keep up with. My mind wondes all over the place. I just whip out my iPad or smart phone and start looking up more information on the subject. I can find much more talented people out there describing something.

Imagine a school with no money for labware or expensive demo units for science. They, along with the kids, can only imagine what certain things look and sound like when they happen. Thanks to YouTube, I can see what thermite explosions look like or a tesla coil that plays music in high fidelity.

As a soon to be EE (hopefully, God willing), I could lose myself to my thoughts with the possiblities that this could bring.

I was kind of an idiot when I was a kid. I was told I could be good as an actor, but not any sort of science or tech position. I had a hard time focusing on the books and figuring out the meaning of the material. I also didn't care for it. One day, people came from who knows where (I was 5 or 6 so I don't remember ). They had batteries, lightbulbs, and wires for US to play with! My whole world changed when I figured out how to light a lightbulb with little instruction. I then figured out how to get a higher current to flow through the bulb and learned that it glowed brighter. My teachers were amazed watching me do that considering what they thought of me...Now I am a year away from being an EE and already am nearing a year of experience in the power field. How's that for being an actor?

We need to find new ways of reaching out to and inspiring the new generations. You never know how you will flip someone upside down with technology.

Matt

I'm in my penultimate year for my Electrical Engineering Degree and you are spot on! Tools like this will be incredibly valuable for more mature students, especially at university level. Our lecturers give us demonstrations but nothing beats whipping out the iPad and running some simulations on it myself.

My post was only in relation to children, although it can also be constructive to them also. I do still maintain though that there needs to be very careful attention paid to ensuring these books are fit for purpose in regards to kids. Kids after all are much more easily distracted than an undergraduate.

 

[Night Spring]

I'm in my penultimate year for my Electrical Engineering Degree and you are spot on! Tools like this will be incredibly valuable for more mature students, especially at university level.

My reading of Mrg02d's post is that his experience with the light bulb happened when he was a kid. Read that way, his post is arguing that interactive learning experience is a great tool for kids, not just for mature learners.

 

[johnnybgood15]

The world and Education are evolving you should to. Just because school now isnt what it was when you went doesent mean its wrong.

 

[bursthead]

I honestly believe that technology will play a role in future learning. As of right now, using ibooks and interactive technologies will only play a role on the most adept institutions.

Most schools today are using books 4-6 years old. While an iPad is a wonderful tool, it is also very fragile. A lot of kids these days are not careful, and repair/replacement will become an enormous cost. In addition, the learning curve in using iPads and textbooks that while hinder the adoption.

A lot of the teachers teaching today are older and middle aged. As I have worked with them, it is hard for them to change the way they have been teaching for years.

 

[baypharm]

Sure the "old" way was with written books. That's all passe now. Electronic books are the new frontier and future for all children. Anything that will make learning easier and less difficult is a plus. We've all been there and done that.

No one will know the true sociological/psychological effects of a traditional book-less society in this country for several generations. The effects are never noticed at first. Values, opinions, etc...they all change slowly over time.

The worst fear that I can surmise is censorship. Books can easily be rewritten, modified, paragraphs added, deleted, etc in order to further the cause of a particular agenda. With books living and breathing in electronic form, this is easier than ever before. Pre-censorship is also something that has a dark side. But it has been alive and well for the last 50 years. If the censors decide to omit something because it may stir social unrest or cause people to feel a certain way (rather than forming their own opinion) then you have trouble. I don't think I need to identify the "censors" as you can probably figure that one out - but in case you can't - it is government and big corporations controlling all that we see, hear, and read.

 

[Hephaestus]

The world and Education are evolving you should to. Just because school now isnt what it was when you went doesent mean its wrong.

What are you talking about? Did you even read what I've been saying. Just because I have an opinion on a highly possible downside... I need to evolve?

 

[Mcclure]

What are you talking about? Did you even read what I've been saying. Just because I have an opinion on a highly possible downside... I need to evolve?

I find it irritating that someone studying engineering thinks they have a clue when it comes to the education of children. From the very start of this thread you speak as if you are an expert when all you have is pure speculation. When educators say something you question them.

You plan on being an engineer, what would you think if I said your designs were done wrong and when you question me I respond as if I know more than you? Just because I use electronics doesn't make me an engineer, just like someone going school doesn't make them an educator.

 

[Hephaestus]

I find it irritating that someone studying engineering thinks they have a clue when it comes to the education of children. From the very start of this thread you speak as if you are an expert when all you have is pure speculation. When educators say something you question them.

You plan on being an engineer, what would you think if I said your designs were done wrong and when you question me I respond as if I know more than you? Just because I use electronics doesn't make me an engineer, just like someone going school doesn't make them an educator.

Erm... its just an opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion.

 

[Night Spring]

Erm... its just an opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion.

Sure, everyone has the right to an opinion. So Mcclure seems to have an opinion that you don't know what you are talking about, and he's just stating that opinion.

 

[csixty4]

Schiller mentioned in the Keynote that carrying textbooks around in a bag is a chore! Come on people! Part of being a kid is carrying your heavy bag around school! It instills discipline and teaches that child a lesson. It makes them grateful when they get into class and can sit down and learn!

I have permanent damage to my left shoulder from lugging all my books around high school. Passing periods were cut from 5 minutes to 3 my senior year, which meant there was even less chance I'd get to my locker and still make it to my next class in time. Had to bring them all home, too, because every teacher worked under the assumption they were the only ones assigning homework.

 

[marcusj0015]

Let me start by saying by no means is this an anti Apple thread. I'm a huge Apple fan who owns a multitude of their products. However, after watching the Education Keynote I feel somewhat troubled. One reason is because of what Apple are proposing and the other is that I have seen literally nobody say what I am about to.

I just saw the iBooks 2 demo and it left me a little worried. As an owner of an iPad let me say that I do use iBooks and that it is a great app! This is no bash at iBooks! For me iBooks is a great way to casually read books and supplement learning. The key word here is supplement.

From what I see, Apple are trying to replace the Textbook in Schools. Personally, I think this is actually quite frightening and worrying. Let me explain why.

1. When I saw the demo, literally every page of every book was filled with huge videos and animations and what not. The actual text was probably the least populous part of the page. Doesn't anyone else see the negatives of this? Children in todays world already spend to much time in front of a screen. Technology in a sense has decreased a child's ability to pay attention without some fancy display in front of them. I fear that if a child is bought up with this tool, it will have the opposite effect to what is intended.

Learning to me is about absorbing information. One READS information and processes it. This is a tough thing to do since it requires a lot of brain activity, which is why learning is always hard. Thats the point! However, once you have learned something it's satisfying and it stays with you. With this method its more like watching a documentary or television! It's not really learning at all. Its more like watching videos with some small captions.

There is no critical thinking involved since it is a passive experience. Its almost like a person cannot read a book anymore without some sort of stimulation. To me it will only worsen a kids lack of concentration and make them more unable to sit and read a proper book with focus.

2. Why has nobody mentioned that in essence this will result in children staring at a screen for hours on end every single day?! We already spend too much time in front a screen as it is. If this made its way into classrooms it would be awful! A child's eyes are still developing and are very sensitive. All they do outside of school is play on their computers and are attached to their phones. Now.. they have to be attached to a screen in school as well?

Personally I think there could be huge health implications of this.

3. Again I'm not anti Apple here, but does anybody else wish that there were some things they could do without some huge corporation being involved? Reading books to me is about escapism. I like reading my books because its just me and the book. I don't want Apple or Google or whoever it is knowing every single book I read and what I grew up reading as a child. All of this information will probably be profiled and be used to sell me more stuff through advertising.

Do we really need to throw children into the evils of this?

4. I also fear that this will serve few purposes other than to make children lazy. As previously mentioned this isn't a proper learning experience. Schiller mentioned in the Keynote that carrying textbooks around in a bag is a chore! Come on people! Part of being a kid is carrying your heavy bag around school! It instills discipline and teaches that child a lesson. It makes them grateful when they get into class and can sit down and learn!

Children bought up on this proposal will only be more lazy and unwilling to do anything that is handed to them on a plate, or in this case a fancy glass screen.


There are several other points but you probably get the idea by now. Let me reinforce though that this is NOT an anti iBooks thread! iBooks is a good tool. It should be used to supplement learning when necessary. It can be good at this. It should NOT be used as a primary teaching tool though and I hope this never makes it way into schools for the reasons I stated.

Discuss.

Reading DOES NOT require alot of focus or brainpower as you put it. how is seeing the anatomy of an ant counter intellectual? you can actually see and highlight what it does, making the written word EASIER to understand.

 

[afroAnt]

In my opinion, as a high school student, I'd rather read from a textbook then from an iPad. I find that I can concentrate more with a book compared to an iPad, especially when I am studying. With a textbook you can write on it, scan it, do basically what ever you want, however it's quiet limited with an iPad. I do like to read with an iPad but for school and studying I'd rather a textbook.

 

[Mcclure]

Not sure what school you are at, but at my high school it is usually frowned upon to write in the textbooks.

That is one of the nice features of the iBooks now, you can write notes in them, highlight, even build flashcards out of notes if you want to.

I do understand the desire to not read a digital screen. I worked in a profession where all printed material had to be documented, so it pretty much required you to learn to read off a monitor, and this was when monitors were still pretty bad. I'm guessing if the iPad 3 does go to a retina display that could help greatly. I don't even mind reading off the iPad 2. My wife actually reads a lot of books on her iPhone 3gs, that I can't do.

 

[spinedoc77]

Let me start by saying by no means is this an anti Apple thread. I'm a huge Apple fan who owns a multitude of their products. However, after watching the Education Keynote I feel somewhat troubled. One reason is because of what Apple are proposing and the other is that I have seen literally nobody say what I am about to.

I just saw the iBooks 2 demo and it left me a little worried. As an owner of an iPad let me say that I do use iBooks and that it is a great app! This is no bash at iBooks! For me iBooks is a great way to casually read books and supplement learning. The key word here is supplement.

From what I see, Apple are trying to replace the Textbook in Schools. Personally, I think this is actually quite frightening and worrying. Let me explain why.

1. When I saw the demo, literally every page of every book was filled with huge videos and animations and what not. The actual text was probably the least populous part of the page. Doesn't anyone else see the negatives of this? Children in todays world already spend to much time in front of a screen. Technology in a sense has decreased a child's ability to pay attention without some fancy display in front of them. I fear that if a child is bought up with this tool, it will have the opposite effect to what is intended.

Parents limiting their childs time in front of "screens" is one thing that must be addressed, whether it's video games, television or internet browsing. But you can't condemn electronic books because of that, it would be a shame to stifle technology that way. Boredom with simple text reading has existed for hundreds of years, it didn't just magically appear in the age of "screens". There is just such an incredible multitude of subjects which can be better described using video or animation than simply with text and flat pictures, and to ignore this would be like saying we should still be chiseling words into stone.

Learning to me is about absorbing information. One READS information and processes it. This is a tough thing to do since it requires a lot of brain activity, which is why learning is always hard. Thats the point! However, once you have learned something it's satisfying and it stays with you. With this method its more like watching a documentary or television! It's not really learning at all. Its more like watching videos with some small captions.

Obviously you also "process" the information from a video format so I'm not sure what this point means. You do remember that old adage that a picture is worth a thousand words, I would think a video or 3d animation is worth ten thousand words. Should we ban teachers from showing videos in class? In a certain sense reading a textbook is simply memorizing content to be regurgitated later on, the real "processing" comes about by applying that knowledge thus reinforcing it in your brain. A textbook or an ipad are both just tools for providing the basic information, it's up to the teacher thru class interaction and homework to push the student to process and integrate that information.

There is no critical thinking involved since it is a passive experience. Its almost like a person cannot read a book anymore without some sort of stimulation. To me it will only worsen a kids lack of concentration and make them more unable to sit and read a proper book with focus.

Reading is about the most passive experience you can have.

2. Why has nobody mentioned that in essence this will result in children staring at a screen for hours on end every single day?! We already spend too much time in front a screen as it is. If this made its way into classrooms it would be awful! A child's eyes are still developing and are very sensitive. All they do outside of school is play on their computers and are attached to their phones. Now.. they have to be attached to a screen in school as well?

Personally I think there could be huge health implications of this.

You do realize that modern medicine has known for years that staring at screens for hours has no permanent health implications. yes there is temporary eye strain, but reading can also cause this. There are no health implications, move along.

3. Again I'm not anti Apple here, but does anybody else wish that there were some things they could do without some huge corporation being involved? Reading books to me is about escapism. I like reading my books because its just me and the book. I don't want Apple or Google or whoever it is knowing every single book I read and what I grew up reading as a child. All of this information will probably be profiled and be used to sell me more stuff through advertising.

Do we really need to throw children into the evils of this?

"Evils" lol, you sound like church lady from SNL. I've been an avid reader since I was a little kid, I usually read 2-3 books per month and would read more if time allowed, plus journals and such. I read the majority of them on my ipad and find myself escaping as much as I did when I was a child. I don't necessarily disagree with you on the privacy issue, but that's a war that's well outside of the electronic realm. When is the last time you bought a book at barnes and noble? Ever wonder why they ask for your information, email, etc.? Data collection is pervasive everywhere, you shouldn't necessarily single out only Apple or Google.

4. I also fear that this will serve few purposes other than to make children lazy. As previously mentioned this isn't a proper learning experience. Schiller mentioned in the Keynote that carrying textbooks around in a bag is a chore! Come on people! Part of being a kid is carrying your heavy bag around school! It instills discipline and teaches that child a lesson. It makes them grateful when they get into class and can sit down and learn!

Children bought up on this proposal will only be more lazy and unwilling to do anything that is handed to them on a plate, or in this case a fancy glass screen.

Well I already went thru this one, and you attempted to avoid it by saying you weren't really serious about it, meh if you say something stand bravely behind it. Kids have MANY health implications from carrying around these heavy books all day long, certainly more health implications than getting eye strain from staring at a screen.

There are several other points but you probably get the idea by now. Let me reinforce though that this is NOT an anti iBooks thread! iBooks is a good tool. It should be used to supplement learning when necessary. It can be good at this. It should NOT be used as a primary teaching tool though and I hope this never makes it way into schools for the reasons I stated.

Discuss.

I think electronic textbooks should and NEED to be used as the primary information storage tool. I agree they should not be used as the primary teaching tool, but a bit of thinking would yield the idea that textbooks are not primary teaching tools either, otherwise we would just give students textbooks, send them home and have them come in once a month to test them on what they memorized. Primary teaching tools are the teachers shaping that raw knowledge into practical experience, primary teaching tools are the students interacting with other students, the teacher, and their own lives and putting that information in perspective with the world and applying it. The ipad or any electronic textbook is simply a tool to hold information, nothing more, as is the textbook which shouldn't be deified any more, nor should students be forced to continue to use old technology by Luddites who are afraid of new technology.

 

[gnasher729]

The worst fear that I can surmise is censorship. Books can easily be rewritten, modified, paragraphs added, deleted, etc in order to further the cause of a particular agenda. With books living and breathing in electronic form, this is easier than ever before.

That may be the reason, or one reason, why Apple wants an ISBN number for each published book. So you can check whether the ISBN number has changed.

 

[Night Spring]

That may be the reason, or one reason, why Apple wants an ISBN number for each published book. So you can check whether the ISBN number has changed.

You need to change the ISBN number every time you make changes to a book? How does that work, now that I think of it? Obviously, with print books, every time you edited the contents, it needed a separate printing, which meant a new ISBN number, but now that we have digital books, how does it work? For instance, the ebook about Jeopardy vs Watson was initially released without the final chapter, then the chapter was added after the Jeopardy game was televised. Did the version with the final chapter have a different ISBN number than the one without?

 

[marcusj0015]

You need to change the ISBN number every time you make changes to a book? How does that work, now that I think of it? Obviously, with print books, every time you edited the contents, it needed a separate printing, which meant a new ISBN number, but now that we have digital books, how does it work? For instance, the ebook about Jeopardy vs Watson was initially released without the final chapter, then the chapter was added after the Jeopardy game was televised. Did the version with the final chapter have a different ISBN number than the one without?

I see ebooks being updated much like apps.

 

[IO01]

You need to change the ISBN number every time you make changes to a book? How does that work, now that I think of it? Obviously, with print books, every time you edited the contents, it needed a separate printing, which meant a new ISBN number, but now that we have digital books, how does it work?

I've seen books where, if there was a reprint for correcting typos, a new ISBN number was not assigned. Some books will get, in addition, a new cover (if it was a part of a series and the cover matches the later books of that series), but the ISBN number wasn't changed.

 

[seong]

Honestly, I would say the illegal/torrent related stuff on ebooks is possible once ePubs and ebooks dominate the textbook market, we are still far away from the future where all, if not, most, publishers publish their books on iBooks Store.

 

[Hephaestus]

I have another point I would like to put across. I think we all now that inequality in education is a big problem, a lot of kids in poor areas suffer a great deal more due to lack of funding and proper resources.

How many of you actually think it is feasible to put iPad's into every school? If schools are struggling financially already, how could they possible afford this luxury? Doesn't anyone else think this would only make the split larger?

I can quite easily see all the schools in affluent areas dishing out iPads to the kids, while other children see no such thing.

That's just another point I thought I'd throw into the mix.

 

[spinedoc77]

I have another point I would like to put across. I think we all now that inequality in education is a big problem, a lot of kids in poor areas suffer a great deal more due to lack of funding and proper resources.

How many of you actually think it is feasible to put iPad's into every school? If schools are struggling financially already, how could they possible afford this luxury? Doesn't anyone else think this would only make the split larger?

I can quite easily see all the schools in affluent areas dishing out iPads to the kids, while other children see no such thing.

That's just another point I thought I'd throw into the mix.

It's actually quite feasible if you do some simple math. It's been estimated by other educators on this forum that a typical cost for a school may be $100 for a textbook that gets used for 4 years, so that would be a yearly cost of $25. Compare this with the $14.99 which is the maximum for a Apple textbook and we already have $10 left over just for that one textbook. Students have like what, 6 subjects? $10x6 textbooks x 4 years = $240 that was saved for that 4 year period of the students education.

Right now anyone can go to Apples website and buy a refurbished 16gb ipad 1 for $299, that's before any educational discount, before any bulk purchasing discount a school might have buying in bulk, and before any special programs Apple may decide to incorporate to make it easier for the schools, it's also before any tax breaks Apple may get by selling to schools. So just as a pure retail number you are talking about $60 more per student per year, probably about the cost of a cheap field trip, and it would be tax deductible for the parent.

So either 1) the school can buy new ipads for all it's students once every 4 years, the ipads would be the property of the school, they could permanently attach them to a desk for example with a protective covering and the student can simply log in at whatever desk they are at. At the worst retail scenario this might raise taxes for students parents by $60/year, but I doubt this would be the case as I'm sure Apple would work something out thru tax credits and educational discounts.
or 2) parents would be required to buy a subsidized ipad from the school, which even at retail breaks down to $299/4 years = about $75/year and they would expect to see that much less in their property/town taxes or their school fees and/or they could write this off on their taxes. This 2nd solution is poor IMO and I really doubt it would be implemented, the first solution makes much more sense, especially in the sense of protecting such a fragile electronic device.

I don't buy the cost thing for a minute, especially in light of all the incredible benefits that have been outlined. With Apple's huge profit margin on these devices and with tax incentives and bulk buying I'll bet that ipad will easily be free, if not BETTER than free for the school/parent to purchase.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Reply to: The dark side of iBooks 2 / Textbooks

Your post caught my attention, and your concern understandable to a degree. The only problem I see is that you may base your concerns on limited knowledge of the subject, only based on the apparent situation, and most likely influenced by similar comments that surged after the keynote.

There may no be so much to worry about as you may think. Just consider the following, in response to your list of concerns:

1) Learning is an activity that is meant to involve all five human senses. Just recall how your child(ren) learned to speak. He/she didn't have to read to learn, not just about language, but about lots of things that caught his/her attention. In fact, a child could start to learn to speak several languages simultaneously since birth.
These new textbooks do have lots of animations, and videos, etc., that complement the learning process. These are not meant to replace the written text. I a textbook was all graphics and videos, it may not fit in an iPad, or take way too much space. Of course, it is to be expected for the demo to be loaded with these, but that's not the case with the rest of the textbook.
Still there is a lot of reading involved.

2) Staring at a bright screen in a dark room or at a book under poor lighting have the same effect on both children's and adults' eyes. If these situations can be avoided, there should be nothing to worry about, except for keeping your children away from drugs and alcohol, including cigarettes and second-hand smoking.
By the time children reach school age, their eyes have endured long sessions of TV watching marathons of Dora the Explorer, Curious George, Spongebob Squarepants, etc. Very good training for them to be able to endure reading from an iPad, and stare at a computer monitor for long hours when they finally get a job.

3) Current textbooks already have huge corporations involved, called Publishing Companies. All Apple is doing is providing the technology needed for the next era's textbooks and channelizing these publishing companies through the iBookstore, in order to save you, the parent, lots of the money you are already spending on textbooks every year.

And sorry, there's no such thing as escapism; no matter where you go, you are being observed by others: security cameras, internet, your government, SWAT Team, FBI, and who knows who else.

4) Heavy school bags are causing spinal cord injuries, bad posture, scoliosis, and other health issues. If you want to teach your children discipline and good working habits, enforce rules at home and good habits such as making their beds in the morning and keeping their bedrooms and playrooms clean, and other chores that go according to their age.

The world is changing, evolving, progressing, going backwards in other aspects too, etc., but if we don't adapt and adjust, we will be in deep trouble.
The time has come when eBooks start replacing paper books. Not allowing your children to start to adapt now, will just slow them down, and will make it more difficult for them to adapt when they get older. It's your choice, but this is already happening whether you like it or not.

You may or may not remember how people used to complain when Television was invented. Same arguments: people won't read as much, lazy people, couch potatoes, etc. Next, evaluate how many hours you and other people spend watching TV every day. How quickly people adapts, huh!?

 

[Mcclure]

I have another point I would like to put across. I think we all now that inequality in education is a big problem, a lot of kids in poor areas suffer a great deal more due to lack of funding and proper resources.

How many of you actually think it is feasible to put iPad's into every school? If schools are struggling financially already, how could they possible afford this luxury? Doesn't anyone else think this would only make the split larger?

I can quite easily see all the schools in affluent areas dishing out iPads to the kids, while other children see no such thing.

That's just another point I thought I'd throw into the mix.

I would think the middle ground would be a bigger problem. Title 1 schools get more funding and can usually get grant money more easily. Private or wealthy schools can just get iPads (although with current funding there aren't a lot of wealthy school districts). All schools need to make choices about budget. My district is looking at trying to get a grant to help out with the start but we figure we should be able to sustain 1:1 iPads (K-12) on our own. We are one of the lowest funded districts in one of the lowest funded states.

 

[Carl Sagan]

Update means Apple doesn't own your content.