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The iPhone forums need help.
- Thread starter cyks
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One problem I see with a separate forum is where to draw the line. It's perfectly normal in the course of a discussion of some aspect of iOS in the iPhone forum that a member might mention something like " Android has had this for a while now, too bad Apple won't follow suit", or "this is the main reason I switched from Android to iOS", and then people comment on that/discuss.
Suddenly you've got a situation where the discussion has veered off topic because we only allow that sort of discussion in the "other smart phones" forum. Do the posts get deleted for being off-topic, and reminders get sent out? Do the off-topic posts get split into a new thread in the other forum? What about all the posts that quote more than one post, where some of the post is on topic and some not? Do we just delete the whole post, depriving the on-topic discussion of some contributions? Do we edit out all the off-topic comments from the posts in question? Or do we just let the discussion veer off-topic, as long as no trolls jump in?
From a moderation standpoint (both for the mods and for members), none of these are particularly good solutions.
As far as I can see, the two problems are 1) trolls, and 2) members who don't like the fact that (as of now at least) it's ok to discuss the competition, so they interrupt threads with posts like "This is an iPhone forum, why are you posting here?".
Suddenly you've got a situation where the discussion has veered off topic because we only allow that sort of discussion in the "other smart phones" forum. Do the posts get deleted for being off-topic, and reminders get sent out? Do the off-topic posts get split into a new thread in the other forum? What about all the posts that quote more than one post, where some of the post is on topic and some not? Do we just delete the whole post, depriving the on-topic discussion of some contributions? Do we edit out all the off-topic comments from the posts in question? Or do we just let the discussion veer off-topic, as long as no trolls jump in?
From a moderation standpoint (both for the mods and for members), none of these are particularly good solutions.
As far as I can see, the two problems are 1) trolls, and 2) members who don't like the fact that (as of now at least) it's ok to discuss the competition, so they interrupt threads with posts like "This is an iPhone forum, why are you posting here?".
Just do it.
I'm OK with people organically mentioning an Android feature or two in a thread, but the amount of passive-aggressive trolling in the iOS and iPhone fora has driven me away from those fora almost exclusively.
As someone mentioned, this is MacRumors.
I'm OK with people organically mentioning an Android feature or two in a thread, but the amount of passive-aggressive trolling in the iOS and iPhone fora has driven me away from those fora almost exclusively.
As someone mentioned, this is MacRumors.
The same people are the ones bashing Apple. I know the mods do their best with this kind of members.
This is another example https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1400736/
This is a quote from the thread.
"I see that the recent downturn in Apple innovation and the resulting discontent with iOS6 and that awful looking leaked parts image has led you guys to start reciting mantras and chanting together in unison to strengthen your faith.
Really now, isn't the very existence of this very thread a clue to you guys that Apple is starting to really lose their grip on their userbase to the Android and Windows Phone platforms? iOS6 and those leaked parts pictures are really starting to cause a bleedout and if those underwhelming developments crystallize, you'll see a big show of discontent and departure from these forums during the holidays this year.
Instead of fruitless nostalgia and reverence towards what already has existed for years now, you guys should be creating threads that light a fire under Apple's butt so that they start acting competitive."
This is another example https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1400736/
This is a quote from the thread.
"I see that the recent downturn in Apple innovation and the resulting discontent with iOS6 and that awful looking leaked parts image has led you guys to start reciting mantras and chanting together in unison to strengthen your faith.
Really now, isn't the very existence of this very thread a clue to you guys that Apple is starting to really lose their grip on their userbase to the Android and Windows Phone platforms? iOS6 and those leaked parts pictures are really starting to cause a bleedout and if those underwhelming developments crystallize, you'll see a big show of discontent and departure from these forums during the holidays this year.
Instead of fruitless nostalgia and reverence towards what already has existed for years now, you guys should be creating threads that light a fire under Apple's butt so that they start acting competitive."
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One problem I see with a separate forum is where to draw the line. It's perfectly normal in the course of a discussion of some aspect of iOS in the iPhone forum that a member might mention something like " Android has had this for a while now, too bad Apple won't follow suit", or "this is the main reason I switched from Android to iOS", and then people comment on that/discuss.
Suddenly you've got a situation where the discussion has veered off topic because we only allow that sort of discussion in the "other smart phones" forum. Do the posts get deleted for being off-topic, and reminders get sent out? Do the off-topic posts get split into a new thread in the other forum? What about all the posts that quote more than one post, where some of the post is on topic and some not? Do we just delete the whole post, depriving the on-topic discussion of some contributions? Do we edit out all the off-topic comments from the posts in question? Or do we just let the discussion veer off-topic, as long as no trolls jump in?
From a moderation standpoint (both for the mods and for members), none of these are particularly good solutions.
As far as I can see, the two problems are 1) trolls, and 2) members who don't like the fact that (as of now at least) it's ok to discuss the competition, so they interrupt threads with posts like "This is an iPhone forum, why are you posting here?".
I think you are missing the point.
Mentioning Android in any thread is fine when it comes up in general conversation. What has really started to bother people are the posts which are clearly created to be pro android for the purpose of winding people up. Also any post that has 'Samsung Galaxy S3 VS' etc should instantly go into a sub forum.
Also if someone starts a thread and it gets moved to the sub forum they cant exactly complain about it. It hasnt been deleted, just moved somewhere more appropriate. There is no problem there.
Finally regarding your point 2, many people who come to a specific forum arent interested in other brands, if they are they just visit the respective forums. There are many that discuss android I would imagine. As an example I have an Audi TT which I go to a specific forum to discuss. When Im there I dont expect to see posts such as "Just switched to a Ford Focus and I LOVE it!".
Cars are cars, phones are phones, but people visit specific forums for specific types of cars/phones.
I have asked many of them the same question but they always manage to find an excuse to justify being here.
I think in reality the bar has been set by Apple and whilst Android is coming along very well these days, the Android users like to come here to:
A) Keep an eye on the Apple camp
B) Troll with posts stating every little feature they feel is Better on Android
C) Justify their purchase (to themselves more than anything)
If the iPhone was as irrelevant as they like to think they wouldnt be coming here in droves would they?
I don't believe I'm missing the point. For me, "posts which are clearly created to be pro android for the purpose of winding people up" are trolling, and are already covered under the rules.
And whether a post that includes the words 'Samsung Galaxy S3 VS' in it should be moved or not depends really on the context IMO. I dont' see a problem with a thread discussing the iPhone where someone points something out having to do with another phone, as long as it's a genuine and interesting discussion.
I'm not saying this necessarily as an argument against a new sub-forum per se, I'm just pointing out where I don't completely agree with you.
I don't think members mind when a thread gets moved, since we usually move them to a more appropriate forum which ultimately benefits the OP. I was trying to point out that it's not always so cut-and-dried, by illustrating borderline examples.
That's true, but when considering a switch, or when in doubt about which brand/type to buy, or even just when interested in comparing in a discussion with others, it's completely natural to want input from a community where people are interested in phones/cars, and where - conceivably - some may have experience with both types you're interested in.
Again, I'm not saying these things to try to convince everyone that a sub-forum is a bad idea. I'm sure there would be some benefits to it. I am however interested in making sure that we don't make a new sub-forum simply to take care of problems that we already have a system in place to deal with.
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I have asked many of them the same question but they always manage to find an excuse to justify being here.
I think in reality the bar has been set by Apple and whilst Android is coming along very well these days, the Android users like to come here to:
A) Keep an eye on the Apple camp
B) Troll with posts stating every little feature they feel is Better on Android
C) Justify their purchase (to themselves more than anything)
If the iPhone was as irrelevant as they like to think they wouldnt be coming here in droves would they?
I'll give you a different answer.
As someone who uses both Apple and Android-run products, I like to read the threads comparing them. When I have specific questions about the Android system, I of course go to an Android forum. But I might well end up with an iPhone some day instead of Android, so I like to read how Apple-users experience the differences between the two, and I know and trust the MR community.
Now, of course I can do that in a new sub-forum too, just as easily. I'm only pointing out that the reasons you give seem pretty one-sided to me.
Hi Annk,
I agree that we dont agree on certain aspects. However by creating a sub forum for 'other smartphones' you could continue to have your interesting discussions about Android. meanwhile the people who come to an iPhone forum purely for iPhone related chat need not have any interaction with them at all.
What you should realise is that while you may use both Android and iOS, many people who come here have no interest in Android whatsoever. Nothing. Myself included. I had a SGS2, it wasnt for me, so I sold it.
For the ones that do, a sub forum would cater to them.
Surely that way everyone is happy?
I agree that we dont agree on certain aspects. However by creating a sub forum for 'other smartphones' you could continue to have your interesting discussions about Android. meanwhile the people who come to an iPhone forum purely for iPhone related chat need not have any interaction with them at all.
What you should realise is that while you may use both Android and iOS, many people who come here have no interest in Android whatsoever. Nothing. Myself included. I had a SGS2, it wasnt for me, so I sold it.
For the ones that do, a sub forum would cater to them.
Surely that way everyone is happy?
Nothing will make "everyone" happy. The forums are fine the way they are. There's nothing wrong with discussing Android in the iPhone forums if it stays within the rules.
Edit: To provide a numerical example of how much of a non-problem this is, the current iPhone forum with my viewing preferences has about 60 threads, a solid 4 of which are "comparison" threads discussing the iPhone vs. various Android phones. This is about the same as the number of "Which SSD?" threads in the Macbook Pro forum (do we need a separate forum for SSD discussion? No.), or the number of "Battery life????" threads that pop up on a daily basis (do we need a separate forum for battery discussion? No.). I find the claims of the OP's travails sifting through endless Android threads to be based either on fantasy or ignorance. The evidence doesn't support the claim. The vast majority of threads in the iPhone forum are about the iPhone.
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But if you have no interest in the topic, can't you simply ignore it? I get that a lot of people don't care for android/wp/blackberry or whatever it may be, but if there are threads full of discussion and comparrison then surely a lot of people take interest in it. On top of that its easier to browse one section rather than 2. This may not be the exact solution you want but you aren't the only members here. Report the trolling, ignore the android threads, and read the topics that interest you.
As I myself pointed out above, those of us who are interested in comparison threads could still do so in a new sub-forum.
The situation I outlined in this post would still create some moderation problems, that might or might not be an improvement on the present situation:One problem I see with a separate forum is where to draw the line. It's perfectly normal in the course of a discussion of some aspect of iOS in the iPhone forum that a member might mention something like " Android has had this for a while now, too bad Apple won't follow suit", or "this is the main reason I switched from Android to iOS", and then people comment on that/discuss.
Suddenly you've got a situation where the discussion has veered off topic because we only allow that sort of discussion in the "other smart phones" forum. Do the posts get deleted for being off-topic, and reminders get sent out? Do the off-topic posts get split into a new thread in the other forum? What about all the posts that quote more than one post, where some of the post is on topic and some not? Do we just delete the whole post, depriving the on-topic discussion of some contributions? Do we edit out all the off-topic comments from the posts in question? Or do we just let the discussion veer off-topic, as long as no trolls jump in?
From a moderation standpoint (both for the mods and for members), none of these are particularly good solutions.
As far as I can see, the two problems are 1) trolls, and 2) members who don't like the fact that (as of now at least) it's ok to discuss the competition, so they interrupt threads with posts like "This is an iPhone forum, why are you posting here?".
I think we agree on the most important issue - that a situation that makes the most people happy - with the least amount of moderation necessary - is the best. I'm just trying to identify what the problems actually are, because I feel that's the first step to deciding what to do (new forum, prefixes, change in moderation etc etc).
I'd like to suggest something wild and crazy to solve all of this in less than one minute: simply drop the i from the iPhone forum.
(I'm mostly kidding. But seriously, it would make it clear that the forum is for all phone discussion.)
(I'm mostly kidding. But seriously, it would make it clear that the forum is for all phone discussion.)
I have only responded this much (I gave up in the last thread) because I noticed that Arn had asked the question. Call it hope lol.
Anyway just like the last thread we are back in a situation where the Mods are stating every reason to oppose this change rather than just giving it a shot, a trial. In fact its only Arn that has given any suggestion that this might be an option. There is nothing more for me to add to this discussion, hopefully I have at least offered some valid points.
There are people who want a sub forum and there are people who dont. Sadly a lot of the people you are currently catering to are not iPhone users and come here purely to pimp Android/WP7 and troll (I know, I can report them right?).
If you are happy with it the way it is, then so be it. If you decide to trial a sub forum, good luck and hopefully it will result in a cleaner iphone forum with reduced negativity, flame wars, and general stealth trolling (TM).
Anyway just like the last thread we are back in a situation where the Mods are stating every reason to oppose this change rather than just giving it a shot, a trial. In fact its only Arn that has given any suggestion that this might be an option. There is nothing more for me to add to this discussion, hopefully I have at least offered some valid points.
There are people who want a sub forum and there are people who dont. Sadly a lot of the people you are currently catering to are not iPhone users and come here purely to pimp Android/WP7 and troll (I know, I can report them right?).
If you are happy with it the way it is, then so be it. If you decide to trial a sub forum, good luck and hopefully it will result in a cleaner iphone forum with reduced negativity, flame wars, and general stealth trolling (TM).
We have never stated that a separate sub-forum for other smartphones is not an option. Arn has the power to do changes like that, we others don't. Hence it could lead to confusion if one mod is for and the other against the idea in public. We, mods, have to represent the opinion of the whole moderation team. Since there is no other smartphone forum at the moment, the official opinion has been that there is no need for one. This does not mean that for example my personal opinion is the same.
What I can tell you is that the whole iPhone forum situation is currently under discussion. We are weighing different option and a new sub-forum is one of them. This is not a promise that a new sub-forum will be created, though, but it's a heads up that we haven't ignored this suggestion.
The two biggest issues I see with the new sub-forum are:
1. It doesn't solve the real problem, which appears to be trolling.
2. It doesn't generate enough interest.
Most of you seem to be wanting the new sub-forum because of trolling. Sorry to be a party-pooper but trolls will keep trolling. Pro-Android trolls will not move to the Android sub-forum simply because they cannot troll there.
I've lately been monitoring the iPhone forum more closely and I don't think there are all that many Android threads in the end. There are several comparison threads but they are more complicated because they are related to iPhone as well. Of course, we can make a policy that comparison threads belong to the other smarthphones forum in order to make sure that it generates enough interest. "Pure" Android threads could be counted with one hand's fingers.
Again, I'm not arguing against the sub-forum, just listing a few concerns that we have. There are definitely many pros of having such a forum.
Write up the test process and send it to us. We'll implement it!
I'll work on that. Ha !
Seriously though. This whole problem is not about sub-forums or mods.
It's about the attitudes of human beings on this forum. Changing forums around or adding a sub-forum won't change the attitude of members.
It might sweep it under the rug for a while but it surely won't end it. As others have stated trolls go where they can make a splash. A sub-forum designed for them would only make them want to make a bigger splash. They like attention.
It seems that in addition to the handful of the comparison threads and general Android threads there are many iPhone-centric threads that simply devolve into GOOG/MSFT v AAPL. I don't think a subforum is going to help that at all. That's just a trolling issue.
Take it easy, it's being discussed - fairly actively. There's more to it than you might think.
We won't leave you hanging - we'll let you know when a decision has been reached.
Take it easy, it's being discussed - fairly actively. There's more to it than you might think.
We won't leave you hanging - we'll let you know when a decision has been reached.
I see some changes in the iPhone forum.
Thank you and the mod's for the work and the attention to the community of MR.
I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with the OP and that there needs to be a separate sectoin for Android related stuff.
It's been (somewhat) better these past few days, if only because some of the more vocal against Apple/ Apple product owners have been put on a little vacation, but, even though some of the negativity has temporarily left, that doesn't change the overabundance of Android threads.
Looking at just the front page, these are about the SGS3, comparing it to the iPhone, or comparing Android to iOS.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1401757/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1396716/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1396024/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1395239/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1395014/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1402253/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1370977/
Believe it or not, I don't go to the iPhone forums on MacRumors to read about the latest Android devices.
Looking at just the front page, these are about the SGS3, comparing it to the iPhone, or comparing Android to iOS.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1401757/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1396716/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1396024/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1395239/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1395014/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1402253/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1370977/
Believe it or not, I don't go to the iPhone forums on MacRumors to read about the latest Android devices.
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