The morality of pirating and EULA

[Mac'nCheese]

Moot point. I work for a gym, but for argument sake let's pretend i work for a company that sells objects. It would be wrong to steal those objects because the company would have less objects to sell. The companies don't lose anything when i copy data, and i would have never paid for it anyway, so they can't count it as a loss.

I don't think you can make that analogy. You can't rationalize certain theft because you aren't literally taking away something for free that a company could have sold to someone else. many businesses work differently. Some sell goods, some sell services, some, like gyms, don't really sell anything.... but if you take their product for free, without their permission, its stealing. Plain and simple. Your gym doesn't sell equipment but if I sneak in and use your gym, I am breaking the law. Just saying, well, it didn't hurt anyone, it was a slow day anyway....is just a bad excuse for my bad behavior. Society would absolutely collapse if everyone was as literal as you are and lived by the "well I didn't take anything, didn't hurt anyone, so its not a crime" credo. We'd all have pirate everything: tap into cable lines for free tv, steal cell phone service, anything that isn't literally taking a product from a store shelf would be ok.

 

[Firestar]

Piracy is not stealing.

Not saying that it's right but they are not the one and the same. Hence you going to someone's house and taking his possessions is not piracy, it's stealing.

I'm not sure how piracy doesn't fit into this definition.

"to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force"

Piracy is piracy, but is piracy not some sort of stealing?

 

[kolax]

Piracy is piracy, but is piracy not some sort of stealing?

Piracy you are creating a duplicate, you aren't stealing anyone's property in the physical sense. It's not like when you pirate a song, there's suddenly one less copy of that in the world. I think this is the area that allows people to justify piracy.

My main use for torrents/piracy is for TV shows. I watch Dexter, Community, Modern Family, South Park, Big Bang Theory and Chuck to name a few. These TV shows sometimes take months, occasionally years to finally air in the UK.

If there was a legit way for me to watch US TV shows as soon as they air, without it costing me an arm and a leg, then maybe I'd consider it.

I also torrent UK TV shows too, like Top Gear, Peep Show etc. Purely because I want to watch it at a convenient time (iPlayer quality isn't great compared to a 720p version on a torrent site). So you could argue that I'm not breaking the law by torrenting those UK TV shows as long as I keep them for personal use and delete them after a while (if those old VHS laws apply in this sense).

We're desperately in need of a new system of pricing, not helped by artists being in denial about their popularity. It's incorrect to assume that someone who downloads your song would have purchased it if it was not possible to get it for free.

.

 

[gnasher729]

There's a difference between pirating and breaking the EULA.

Running a hackintosh with an not-paid for copy of OS X Lion = Pirating
Running a hackintosh with a purchased copy of OS X Lion = Breaking EULA

There is no difference at all. If you install software on a computer, you need a license that allows you to do so. Borrowing someone else's copy of Lion doesn't give you a license to install it anywhere, not on a Mac, not on a Hackintosh. Paying $29 for Lion gives you a license to install it on a Mac, but not on a Hackintosh. So the person running a Hackintosh with a purchased copy is a pirate who also spent $29 on a license they are not using.

 

[MOFS]

First and foremost, this is not a discussion on HOW to pirate, so lets not break any macrumors rules here. I want to have a debate on pirating and EULA's. I've noticed that many people on macrumors are very anti-pirate and follow EULA's on their software as if it's the law. But in the real world, i have yet to encounter one single person who is anti-pirating. Literally, NOT ONE. Everyone i work with exchanges torrent site invites and has no shame in doing so. I'm in the same boat. I bought a copy of snow leopard when it came out, but then proceeded to use the same disk to install it for everyone i knew who had a mac. I did the same thing with lion, except i didn't even pay for lion. I just feel no guilt in doing it. I don't care. I know i'm not the only one on macrumors who feels this way. Speak up people! What are your thoughts on pirating?

I never pirate (yep, I'll get burned for that ...), and here's why:

Q) Why is stealing online different from stealing a DVD from a shop?

A) Because people feel they can get away with stealing online.

Stealing online is a "faceless crime". You merely download it, and there is no visible consequence. Indeed, people try and justify it. Stealing from a shop, on the other hand, is right in public view, is a public taboo, and the risk of getting caught is much higher.

What do I do instead? I buy CDs/ Blu-rays/ DVDs etc from a shop. I pay to go to the cinema and the pay TV I watch. I download from iTunes. If I can't afford it, I can't have it. Simples.

 

[(marc)]

Why is stealing online different from stealing a DVD from a shop?

I can't believe you're posting this nonsense again. It has been thoroughly discussed in this thread already.

 

[MOFS]

I can't believe you're posting this nonsense again. It has been thoroughly discussed in this thread already.

This thread is a thread on the "morality of pirating and EULA", in which the OP asks:

I just feel no guilt in doing it. I don't care. I know i'm not the only one on macrumors who feels this way. Speak up people! What are your thoughts on pirating?

How is my post off topic? And why is it nonsense?

 

[jca24]

Who do you think taught me how to use napster when i was 8?



Moot point. I work for a gym, but for argument sake let's pretend i work for a company that sells objects. It would be wrong to steal those objects because the company would have less objects to sell. The companies don't lose anything when i copy data, and i would have never paid for it anyway, so they can't count it as a loss.




For individual songs yes, and that's a lot of them for me. Not big on full albums.

I'm sure you still live in your mothers basement. And i'm sure she is very proud of you.

 

[wrinkster22]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

Well I Think it I wrong and get my music and tv show off iTunes. I have yet to upgrade my OS (machine shipped with lion) but I will likely not upgrade it anyway but that's another story. I purchased pages and keynote but really it helped that I got the 100$ gift card.
The things I DO pirate (sort off)
-about 20 of my songs I took from YouTube
-5 and rapidly increasing tv shows. Although this is a little tricky. My Brother has a server that I know he pirated but I copy them anyway

 

[likemyorbs]

I'm sure you still live in your mothers basement. And i'm sure she is very proud of you.

Nah i have the luxury of a real bedroom with a tv on my wall and a comfy memory foam mattress. And yeah i live with my mom, i'm 22. What's your point? Most people live with their parents at 22 where in this area. But nice personal attack anyway, that's the best response you have?

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Well I Think it I wrong

.....

-about 20 of my songs I took from YouTube
-5 and rapidly increasing tv shows. Although this is a little tricky. My Brother has a server that I know he pirated but I copy them anyway

Apparently you don't think it's so wrong then.

 

[jca24]

Nah i have the luxury of a real bedroom with a tv on my wall and a comfy memory foam mattress. And yeah i live with my mom, i'm 22. What's your point? Most people live with their parents at 22 where in this area. But nice personal attack anyway, that's the best response you have?

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.....

Apparently you don't think it's so wrong then.

It was not a personal attack, just my thought which turned out to be correct. I realize you are 22 and have not grown up yet. When you do grow up you will realize that stealing music, movies, software or anything else is NOT moral.

 

[likemyorbs]

When you do grow up you will realize that stealing music, movies, software or anything else is NOT moral.

It's not really an age thing. My brother in law is 30 and still pirates as well. I just don't want to pay for this stuff, so i don't. I don't have the disposable income to purchase these things legally, so i just get it how i can. Call it theft, call it what you will, i'm just not bothered by it. I realize it's not moral, i just don't care. And neither is anyone in the real world. I just noticed that a lot of macrumors members think they are the morality police, so i made this thread.

 

[jca24]

It's not really an age thing. My brother in law is 30 and still pirates as well. I just don't want to pay for this stuff, so i don't. I don't have the disposable income to purchase these things legally, so i just get it how i can. Call it theft, call it what you will, i'm just not bothered by it. I realize it's not moral, i just don't care. And neither is anyone in the real world. I just noticed that a lot of macrumors members think they are the morality police, so i made this thread.

Thats very sad. Like I said earlier, i'll bet your mom is very proud of you.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

The problem is pirates don't make distinctions between large and small companies. Number of people who pirated one software I made, out of my own pocket, 13k. Number of legit customers 1.5k (for something released a couple of weeks ago).

The problem is how much strain they put on my server. I'm a one man show and I can't afford expensive servers. So unfortunately my legit customers can't fully use my software right now.

That's ultimately the problem. Don't steal (as it is in this case; bandwidth and server limits) from the small guys.

I think your example is great to show the problem with pirates. They increase the strain on your resources in maintaining the product. It strains your servers that you have to pay for with now less income.

It was not a personal attack, just my thought which turned out to be correct. I realize you are 22 and have not grown up yet. When you do grow up you will realize that stealing music, movies, software or anything else is NOT moral.

Yeah I can tell looking threw his post that he has not grown up yet or dealt with the real world. I will admit I am 28 living at home. Not because I was not out on my own but because in 08 I lost my job and choose to go back to school for another degree and to move into a new field I would much rather be in. Living at home is not something I like, Hell I hate it. My parents know that I hate it as well and if I could afford it I would move out in a heart beat but school is draining my very limited resources.

Either way I think likemyorbs is a little kid and has a lot of growing up to do.

I will admit when I was his age I was a pretty bad pirater and a good part of my 35 gig music library is from those stealing days. Now days I tend to buy my music and have added a fair amount that I have either bought or got with free promotions of some type. Amazon has supply me with around $30 of "free" music. Free as in the fact that I have bought spent a lot in text books from them.

As for now days stuff I will often times get an electronic pdf copy of my books that I already own but I bought the Text book.

Last piece of software I pirated was display fusion which I used for about a month before I said screw it and bought a legit copy. Complete worth it and a product I love. I could of gone on using the pirated copy with no issue.

 

[likemyorbs]

Thats very sad. Like I said earlier, i'll bet your mom is very proud of you.

Meh, she doesn't lose any sleep over it. How else could she have gotten her computer upgraded to windows 7?

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Meh, she doesn't lose any sleep over it. How else could she have gotten her computer upgraded to windows 7?

bought a legit copy. I am going to assume you are a student and you could of easily got W7 ultimate for like 10 bucks from your school.

 

[likemyorbs]

Either way I think likemyorbs is a little kid and has a lot of growing up to do.

Again, not an age thing. I teach people who are way older than me how to do it. And when my friend's parents in their 50's got their first macs, guess who they called to hook them up with tons of software. When the sales guy at Apple try to sell me software, and i informed him that i just pirate it, he said "that's what's up! me too! i hate selling people software." I guess it's much more normal in real life than it is on moralrumors.

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bought a legit copy. I am going to assume you are a student and you could of easily got W7 ultimate for like 10 bucks from your school.

I'm not aware of any program at my school that gives cheap windows 7 copies. Much less hassle to just pirate it.

 

[jca24]

bought a legit copy. I am going to assume you are a student and you could of easily got W7 ultimate for like 10 bucks from your school.

I don't have a problem with anyone living at home. In your case it is a great idea. The OP I would bet does not go to school and is just a slacker that wants stuff for free.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Again, not an age thing. I teach people who are way older than me how to do it. And when my friend's parents in their 50's got their first macs, guess who they called to hook them up with tons of software. When the sales guy at Apple try to sell me software, and i informed him that i just pirate it, he said "that's what's up! me too! i hate selling people software." I guess it's much more normal in real life than it is on moralrumors.

I was not talking about age but maturity. You have a maturity level of a little kid and have a lot of growing up to do. Those 50 year olds chances are they do not have a fully understanding that it is a wink wink type of thing.

The way you are reacting is why I see you as a little kid.

I'm not aware of any program at my school that gives cheap windows 7 copies. Much less hassle to just pirate it.

And you wonder why we have such annoying DRM in stuff. Do a little research. The programs are not always well known but often times are their. MS is very good about working with school and offering great deals for students. If you want MS developing software you can get that legally from MS for free if you are a student. It just requires an EDU address.

I don't have a problem with anyone living at home. In your case it is a great idea. The OP I would bet does not go to school and is just a slacker that wants stuff for free.

Yeah there is a different between living at home and having no direction and living at home with a direction. I know people who are at home, have zero direction and no real plan. I have an issue with that but at home for a short term or to get back on your feet or need a place to stay while your plan gets in action is fine.

 

[likemyorbs]

Those 50 year olds chances are they do not have a fully understanding that it is a wink wink type of thing.

No they most certainly do, i explain it to them.

The way you are reacting is why I see you as a little kid.

Again, i'm not offended by what someone on the interwebs thinks of me. You don't know me in real life, so it's ridiculous to pass such a judgement on me. Almost childish, i would say.

I don't have a problem with anyone living at home. In your case it is a great idea. The OP I would bet does not go to school and is just a slacker that wants stuff for free.

What a grown up judgment you just made! You bet wrong though. I'm almost finished with my associates degree and am transferring to another school soon, and i work A LOT. I work hard for my money and have more important things to spend it on. So i'm starting to think your maturity level is way below mine.

 

[jackgbanks]

What do all of you think about copying a song from YouTube that is not available, i.e. a one off duet between two artists that was recorded live and was not recorded in a studio?

Is this technically pirating/theft, despite the fact that it cannot be bought or acquired through any another method?

 

[jca24]

No they most certainly do, i explain it to them.


Again, i'm not offended by what someone on the interwebs thinks of me. You don't know me in real life, so it's ridiculous to pass such a judgement on me. Almost childish, i would say.

you are the one that publicized you immoral, immature and dishonest way of life, we just commented on it.

 

[likemyorbs]

you are the one that publicized you immoral, immature and dishonest way of life, we just commented on it.

No, i started a thread for people to debate pirating, not attack my personality. Which is very immature of you.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

No, i started a thread for people to debate pirating, not attack my personality. Which is very immature of you.

It how you try to rationalize it. It pretty sad. It kind of the though it not hurting any one. Minus the fact that they still have to pay to support those computers.
MS suffer from pirated copies of its OS turning in to Zombie computers and then they get blamed for it. never mind the fact that it was a stolen copy of its OS.

It seems you do not see the fact you are doing anything wrong being a pirate. You are fine with it and are to cheap to pay for anything.

 

[likemyorbs]

you are the one that publicized you immoral, immature and dishonest way of life, we just commented on it.

Cool, you forgot to comment on this...

What a grown up judgment you just made! You bet wrong though. I'm almost finished with my associates degree and am transferring to another school soon, and i work A LOT. I work hard for my money and have more important things to spend it on. So i'm starting to think your maturity level is way below mine.

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It seems you do not see the fact you are doing anything wrong being a pirate. You are fine with it and are to cheap to pay for anything.

I guess that's what it comes down to. I just simply don't care. It's not something i think about often. It's such a small part of who i am, i also go to school and work with kids at my job and volunteer when i can and donate to charity. If pirating is my only personality flaw, then i'm a very lucky person.