The Official Battlestar Galactica Thread : SPOILERS

[nagromme]

Just watched the finale.



That was amazing. This season was a little weird (not bad, just weird) in the middle. But the start and end were probably the best TV I've ever seen.

I was counting how many people heard the music, and I got to four... and I thought to myself, if one more person hears that song it will be five, and I will soil myself.

Well, it wasn't five, but... I have controlled my bowels only by the dedicated application of sheer willpower. The thing with the song was just too cool last week, and it only got more interesting this week!

And here I was thinking Baltar's trial would be the main attraction! I honestly thought we wouldn't get a verdict, and the cliffhanger would be in the courtroom. When they wrapped that up halfway through the hour, I thought, wow, SOMETHING big is coming. And it did... two or three things... I just don't know what a single one of them means.....

BTW, I was surprised to see Starbuck in a viper... but then I realized that the Cylons have tons of colonial ships--they've used raptors before. Pretty cool how they revealed her viper "subliminally" at first.

And to cast my vote: I do NOT think the "final four" are Cylons But I'm none too sure....

What I AM sure about is that the show has life left in it, and new directions left to explore. However many more seasons it gets (and if it has low viewership, that's madness), I hope the creators have warning enough to have a nice finale, not rushed.

Meanwhile, there's supposed to be a direct-to-DVD Galactica movie coming this year, to be aired on Sci-Fi before next season, using the regular cast but not relating directly to the finale. Maybe it's just some good story idea(s) they couldn't fit into season 3? Maybe it's a test to see if BSG could live on that way, even if ratings don't keep on the air in the usual way?

And I see they're dropping lots of hints about Joseph Adama and the coming Caprica series. I'm interested in that. Let's just hope it doesn't go all Episode One and start "pre-connecting" the characters in unlikely ways. If "little Billy" goes to school with Laura, for instance, that would be a silly coincidence. Adams and MAYBE Tigh (unless he's in a Cylon vat jamming to Hendrix) would be the only BSG characters I'd want to see in the Caprica series.

Now... what to do for 10 months?

(P.S. I hope someday they sell the Dylan remix or whatever that version of the song was. It was cool with the Indian/middle-eastern BSG style. Or did that already exist? I only know Hendrix's and U2's versions, and I've previewed 30 seconds of Dylan.)

 

[atszyman]

Just watched the finale.
And to cast my vote: I do NOT think the "final four" are Cylons But I'm none too sure....

Interview with Ron Moore

Rob: Why did music cause these newly-revealed Cylons to discover they were indeed Cylons. Sharon didn't hear music when she figured it out in season one.

Ron Moore: It's more that they arrived at a certain point in space and they were made aware of who they are. The music manifests a dawning awareness. These are four of the final five, which puts them in a separate category from everybody else. There are reasons for that I can't really get into. We'll be playing out those plot lines for quite a while.

Right from the man himself, they are Cylons... of course I predicted that they weren't, and since I'm always wrong...

 

[Queso]

Right from the man himself, they are Cylons... of course I predicted that they weren't, and since I'm always wrong...

But RDM did also say a few weeks back that Katie Sackoff was no longer filming and they had no plans for her in the future. The man knows how to keep the story close to his chest

 

[~Shard~]

And to cast my vote: I do NOT think the "final four" are Cylons But I'm none too sure....

Ron Moore has stated that these four are part of the final five. Of course he could always be lying, just as he did when she said Starbuck was dead and Katee was not filming anymore.

What I AM sure about is that the show has life left in it, and new directions left to explore. However many more seasons it gets (and if it has low viewership, that's madness), I hope the creators have warning enough to have a nice finale, not rushed.

Ron Moore has indicated he has two chapters left in his head, and he is unsure if he can fit it all into 20 more epsiodes or if a fifth season is required. Since the ratings are dropping off for the show and it is losing some of its initial impact, perhaps he shouldn't push his luck and end it in Season 4 as opposed to risk not being renewed afterwards. It's been an awesome show, let's end it at its peak, on a high note, as opposed to a low one.

Meanwhile, there's supposed to be a direct-to-DVD Galactica movie coming this year, to be aired on Sci-Fi before next season, using the regular cast but not relating directly to the finale. Maybe it's just some good story idea(s) they couldn't fit into season 3? Maybe it's a test to see if BSG could live on that way, even if ratings don't keep on the air in the usual way?

The movie is actually being counted as the first 2 episodes of Season 4. They will be aired on TV then released on DVD the next day as a set. It will involve Pegasus and Admiral Cain and will reveal some plot points which we have not been made aware of yet which will have an impact on Season 4.

So to reiterate, Season 4 is 22 episodes. The first 2 episodes are the movie and the rest of Season 4 proper will be 20 episodes. The movie comes out late 2007 and Season 4 starts early 2008.

 

[atszyman]

But RDM did also say a few weeks back that Katie Sackoff was no longer filming and they had no plans for her in the future. The man knows how to keep the story close to his chest

True, but he flat out calls them 4 of the final 5, kind of hard to mis-interpret that as a they might be Cylons...

A new theory on the final 5, sort of along the lines of my last one:

The final 5 were completely built from scratch and are capable of reproduction with Humans and each other. When they reproduce with each other given their construction the result is fixed. Let's assume that the remaining one of the 5 is female which seems to fit, 3 of the 7 are female so it's plausible that 2 of the 5 would be to maintain balance. With 2 females and 3 males there are 6 potential combinations.

What if the purebred offspring were somehow different and studied and they figured out how to construct replacement bodies and a similar model (my guess would be on Sharon since she seems to be the only model capable of reproduction with humans, slight difference from the other 6).

This would fit with the 5 being the only Cylons capable of creating "new" personalities to fit in the bodies in that the personalities of the 6 were created in the purebred offspring and just propagated from body to body as time went on. The 7th model had a small difference which allows reproduction with humans (or possibly some other difference, I'm still on the Sharon kick). Over time the 5 saw their offspring getting restless and their desire for domination and then left.

Let's also say that early on in the days of the final 5 they also propagated with purebred humans and due to human reproduction were not limited to only a few offspring. What if the purebred humans fled to earth with the final 5 and left the colonies with diluted human/cylon hybrids, which would explain why Tyrol's kid doesn't seem to be an anomaly. Of course this brings the question as to why there were no other offspring for the final 5 and that may be due to requiring a certain level of "human" in their mate to make reproduction possible since as the Human/5 hybrids started to reproduce among themselves the level of cylon:human would vary from person to person and generation to generation yielding a widely varying range of mix ratios.

 

[joepunk]

What if the new cylons (Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and what's her name) are actually decendents of the 4 cylons. Just a thought since of Tigh's military record in the first Cylon War.

 

[atszyman]

Ron Moore has indicated he has two chapters left in his head, and he is unsure if he can fit it all into 20 more epsiodes or if a fifth season is required. Since the ratings are dropping off for the show and it is losing some of its initial impact, perhaps he shouldn't push his luck and end it in Season 4 as opposed to risk not being renewed afterwards. It's been an awesome show, let's end it at its peak, on a high note, as opposed to a low one.

This scares me since it sort of mirrors the Babylon 5 drama. Initially scripted to be a 5 season story arc, they crammed a lot in to the 4th season since it looked like the 5th season was going to be a no-go. The 5th season eventually happened but with much of the story pulled into the 4th to provide some closure the 5th season suffered greatly.

There needs to be some commitment from Moore or Scifi here that there will either be a 5th season so they don't have to cram it into the 4th or that the 4th will be then end so the cramming doesn't hurt the 5th season if it were given the green light. Things could definitely suffer if the waffling continues...

 

[~Shard~]

As for the finale itself, I wonder if BSG has sabotaged itself by making its audience get used to such a high standard, and thereby expecting that high standard to be met and exceeded. I admit I may be guilty of this as well, as I have found myself becoming more critical of the show this past season.

For me I really enjoyed the finale, but I found it too predictable. It just didn’t shock me or bend my mind, which is what I wanted it to do. Honestly. When Tigh, Anders, Tyrol and started hearing the music and so much focus was being put on that, even though I didn’t understand what the heck hearing music had to do with being a Cylon, I thought it was them – and I was right. BSG didn’t surprise me and say, “Nope, not so fast!!!”. And when it came down to the 4 of them, I immediately thought, “Okay, I guess Starbuck is the final Cylon”. And lo and behold, she appears at the end. Didn’t see that coming… The fact is, once she was killed off in Maelstrom, for me it was as if Ron Moore had tied his own hands. Either you’ve killed off (for real) one of your main characters, or she’s a Cylon. That’s the only way she can return. But I thought that the latter would be so obvious, there’s no way that’s how it would turn out. Now it appears that’s the case.

Sure, we don’t know if she is the final one, but obviously she’s more than “just a human” if her ship can blow up in space light years away and then she can appear in a viper right when the fleet jumps in and is under attack. Unless of course she is now like the Six in Baltar’s head, except it’s for Lee. And yes, we know who four of ther five are, but we don't know what thast means, which is fair enough - I am by no means saying all has been answered and explained.

As for the trial, I was expecting Baltar to go free. Although it is admittedly a good twist, it is one which was predictable, thus losing its impact. And then when Rosalyn approached Adama and we find out that he voted not guilty, again, you could see that coming a mile away. Again, great twist, however nothing that made me go, “Holy @#$%”.

In summary, I think what was lacking for me was something that made my jaw drop and really turned things upside down for me. Sharon shooting Adama at the end of Season One – NO ONE saw that coming and no one knew how that would play out. NO ONE saw the whole “One Year Later” thing at the end of last season and knew what it would mean. But this season, we essentially knew the final five would be revealed in some aspect, and by the second-last episode you had a pretty good idea of who 4 of them were. And then to reveal them in such an anti-climatic way: they all meet during a power outage (somehow) and then decide to continue on their merry way afterwards?!? I was expecting such a crucial moment to the show to be revealed differently I guess...

Now that being said, I still have a million questions in my head, and the writers have done a great job of keeping us guessing and building things up. Is Starbuck actually the final Cylon? What does it mean to be a member of the final five? What’s their purpose and what makes them special? Have they existed for centuries, thus explaining the Eye of Jupiter, etc.? But if so, how does that work since the humans created the Cylons only a few decades ago? Were they already created before by someone else??? And what are the odds all of them would survive the initial genocide and all end up on the same ship? There better be some good explanations for this, otherwise it’s simply too convenient and far-fetched to believe.

I thought when the Cylons were exiled 40 years ago (or whenever it was) they were still in their their "Toaster form". How is it then that the advanced human models, capable of reproduction or whatever we can assume, have been around for hundreds of years then???

My other question is, what is the Cylon’s plan??? “They have a plan” has always been in the main titles but I don’t know what their plan is anymore – I can only hope there is one and we simply haven’t figured it out yet.

So, there is plenty of material now for Season 4 – Earth, Starbuck, discovering more about the final five & how that impacts relationships aboard Galactica (Adama and Tigh for example) and what the frack is the deal with the Cylons now?

Lastly, I still love BSG, don’t get me wrong. I just think it doesn’t have the magic, edge and potency of Season One anymore, or even the beginning of Season 2 as well as the Pegasus/Resurrection Ship story arc. I want to be knocked off my ass every episode in Season 4, just as I was in Season 1, I want the tension to be raised back to its initial level and I want there to be huge twists and turns along with big pay-offs with respect to the current storylines. It happened before, can they do it again? Is that too much to ask?

 

[nagromme]

The fact is, once she was killed off in Maelstrom, for me it was as if Ron Moore had tied his own hands. Either you’ve killed off (for real) one of your main characters, or she’s a Cylon. That’s the only way she can return.

Not so. She had her hand on the eject lever, and a cylon ship with jump drive and passenger compartment was right there. She may well not have died at all.

The real mystery then is where she got a "new" Mk II Viper! I don't see how the Cylons could have staged her whole explosion.

As for quality--the season has changed and gone in different directions at different times. So some of those directions will please some people more than others. I personally liked the latter half of seasons 1 and 2, and the first half of season 3, the best. But BSG is outstanding at its worst, and I thought the first and final eps of all seasons have been great.

My all time favorite aspects:

* The two Sharons

* Caprica Six and a glimpse into Cylon life

* Pegasus

* New Caprica (the whole arc)

* The season 3 finale

And my least favorite (though still fun):

* The arrow of apollo stuff

* Baltar on the base ship (don't know why--it was good sci-fi but I enjoyed it less than some things)

* The baby stuff

* Baltar's trial (Lee made good argument though. Balatar is a selfish prick but wasn't guilty of treason/collaboration in the way he was charged. He wasn't even guilty of INTENTIONALLY helping the original holocaust. He IS guilty of 3 things: Shooting that guy on Kobol. Giving Gina the nuke. And falsifying the results of his Cylon detector, especial wrt Boomer. But he hasn't been caught on these things. And what's up with Gaeta? Seems like he has something to hide from New Caprica.)

 

[TBi]

And falsifying the results of his Cylon detector, especial wrt Boomer. But he hasn't been caught on these things.

You know i get why he falsified the results while she was there, she might kill him if she knew he knew. However i never got why he didn't go to Adama afterwards and tell him. I know Baltar is the bad guy (not as bad as in the original series) but there was no reason for him not to tell.

 

[Queso]

The fact is, once she was killed off in Maelstrom, for me it was as if Ron Moore had tied his own hands. Either you’ve killed off (for real) one of your main characters, or she’s a Cylon. That’s the only way she can return. But I thought that the latter would be so obvious, there’s no way that’s how it would turn out. Now it appears that’s the case.

Here's my thinking. She's neither Head Starbuck nor a Cylon. The Final Five have a lot of power. Someone already made the point of them being guardians. They're supposed to be guardian angels, like the Beings of Light from the 70s series. The Five caused the fleet-wide power failure for some as yet unspecified reason, perhaps to ensure that the Fleet couldn't leave when the Cylons arrived. Anders, Tigh etc. are just avatars for what the Five have become, along with one other who hasn't yet been revealed (my guess is below).

Those big old Cylon baseships are about to get their asses whooped and the Five want the humans to witness it. Perhaps so they can realise that they don't need to be afraid any more, or maybe to force the Cylons aboard into a balance with the humans to force an alliance between the two. They may even have already wiped out the Cylon homeworld and the "12 Cylon Colonies" for this purpose, something that Deanna had already hinted at earlier in the season.

As for Starbuck, they've brought her back from the dead, but she's not completely the same. She's got knowledge now of The Plan. She'll become a religious figure, a teacher to the avatars and a counterpoint to the Cult of Baltar (the fifth Final Five avatar, although his guiding Five member is evil and a servant for the evil the other Five members are gearing up to fight). As the fleet (now containing a Cylon ship or two) approaches Earth the alliances are going to shift into a battle between good and evil, rather than between Cylon and Human.

 

[~Shard~]

Here's my thinking. She's neither Head Starbuck nor a Cylon. The Final Five have a lot of power. Someone already made the point of them being guardians. They're supposed to be guardian angels, like the Beings of Light from the 70s series. The Five caused the fleet-wide power failure for some as yet unspecified reason, perhaps to ensure that the Fleet couldn't leave when the Cylons arrived. Anders, Tigh etc. are just avatars for what the Five have become, along with one other who hasn't yet been revealed (my guess is below).

Those big old Cylon baseships are about to get their asses whooped and the Five want the humans to witness it. Perhaps so they can realise that they don't need to be afraid any more, or maybe to force the Cylons aboard into a balance with the humans to force an alliance between the two. They may even have already wiped out the Cylon homeworld and the "12 Cylon Colonies" for this purpose, something that Deanna had already hinted at earlier in the season.

As for Starbuck, they've brought her back from the dead, but she's not completely the same. She's got knowledge now of The Plan. She'll become a religious figure, a teacher to the avatars and a counterpoint to the Cult of Baltar (the fifth Final Five avatar, although his guiding Five member is evil and a servant for the evil the other Five members are gearing up to fight). As the fleet (now containing a Cylon ship or two) approaches Earth the alliances are going to shift into a battle between good and evil, rather than between Cylon and Human.

See, now I like that a lot. This is what I was referring to in my above "essay" (apologies, just doing a brain dump/cleanse!) where I was saying that there needs to be revelations in Season 4 which really shake things up. Anders, Tigh, etc. aren't really the final four, they're just "messengers", or whatever you want to call it - they represent sometihng else. Something is really different with Starbuck. There are huge changes coming with respect to the balance of power, etc. Give me this, complemented and supported with concepts such as what you've described above and it will be a great Season.

nagromme said it well though - BSG is still oustanding even at its worst. And as I said, perhaps our expectations are simply too high sometimes...

 

[TBi]

I thought when the Cylons were exiled 40 years ago (or whenever it was) they were still in their their "Toaster form". How is it then that the advanced human models, capable of reproduction or whatever we can assume, have been around for hundreds of years then???

My other question is, what is the Cylon’s plan??? “They have a plan” has always been in the main titles but I don’t know what their plan is anymore – I can only hope there is one and we simply haven’t figured it out yet.

In the original series the cylons were another race altogether. Maybe the whole story line here is that the cylons met another race out in space when they exiled, more advanced but with no purpose (original cylon-like beings from back before the 13th colony left?) or stayed away for another reason.

Maybe that is why they aren't so interested in the 12 planets they destroyed. They are looking for their creators, the 13th colony?

Maybe the reason the 13th colony left was part of a truce between these older cylons and the 13 colony's. They'd leave the the 12 colony's alone if the 13th one left. When the 12 remaining colony's reached that level of technology again they saw it as the end of the truce.

However that would leave the question, if the 13th colony was the most advanced, why is earth so backwards .

Maybe ... they were so frightened by their creations that when they landed on earth they destroyed all their written knowledge and returned to a simpler way of living and over the years this was all forgotten on earth. Leading to tales of ancient gods of wisdom (the original members of the 13th colony?).

OOOh i so love pondering this kind of stuff

 

[joepunk]

... And what's up with Gaeta? Seems like he has something to hide from New Caprica.)

What's up with Gaeta's hair? That's what I want to know.

He could use a stylist.

 

[atszyman]

Now that being said, I still have a million questions in my head, and the writers have done a great job of keeping us guessing and building things up. Is Starbuck actually the final Cylon? What does it mean to be a member of the final five? What’s their purpose and what makes them special? Have they existed for centuries, thus explaining the Eye of Jupiter, etc.? But if so, how does that work since the humans created the Cylons only a few decades ago? Were they already created before by someone else??? And what are the odds all of them would survive the initial genocide and all end up on the same ship? There better be some good explanations for this, otherwise it’s simply too convenient and far-fetched to believe.

I thought when the Cylons were exiled 40 years ago (or whenever it was) they were still in their their "Toaster form". How is it then that the advanced human models, capable of reproduction or whatever we can assume, have been around for hundreds of years then???

They were exiled 40 years ago but there is no mention as to how long humans and Cylons co-existed in peace after the creation of the Cylons before the war and exile, which could have been hundreds of years. It's also entirely possible that the 7 skin-jobs existed (and possibly started the war by egging on/reprogramming the toasters but did not participate openly) at the time of exile and were banished by the final 5 without the knowledge of the humans (contributing to the rift between the 7 and the 5).

Just because human history only knows of the "Toaster" model does not mean that the skin jobs were not already present. It just means that humans did not know about them at that time.

 

[~Shard~]

They were exiled 40 years ago but there is no mention as to how long humans and Cylons co-existed in peace after the creation of the Cylons before the war and exile, which could have been hundreds of years. It's also entirely possible that the 7 skin-jobs existed (and possibly started the war by egging on/reprogramming the toasters but did not participate openly) at the time of exile and were banished by the final 5 without the knowledge of the humans (contributing to the rift between the 7 and the 5).

Just because human history only knows of the "Toaster" model does not mean that the skin jobs were not already present. It just means that humans did not know about them at that time.

That actually would make a lot of sense. Thanks, that helps me wrap my head around matters and make sense of it all.

 

[nagromme]

They were exiled 40 years ago but there is no mention as to how long humans and Cylons co-existed in peace after the creation of the Cylons before the war and exile, which could have been hundreds of years. It's also entirely possible that the 7 skin-jobs existed (and possibly started the war by egging on/reprogramming the toasters but did not participate openly) at the time of exile and were banished by the final 5 without the knowledge of the humans (contributing to the rift between the 7 and the 5).

Just because human history only knows of the "Toaster" model does not mean that the skin jobs were not already present. It just means that humans did not know about them at that time.

I'd say the Cylons were invented when Adama was a child, since both appear in the upcoming Caprica series.

But considering that Adama knew Tigh since before the first war, I'd say the skin jobs WERE around nearly from the beginning. The final (first?) five may have started the first war themselves from behind the scenes, and remained hidden even from their own kind after the other seven were later created. Who created the first five is the question... some human(s) or the toasters?

 

[bobbyboulders]

Just watched the finale.

(P.S. I hope someday they sell the Dylan remix or whatever that version of the song was. It was cool with the Indian/middle-eastern BSG style. Or did that already exist? I only know Hendrix's and U2's versions, and I've previewed 30 seconds of Dylan.)

I'm So in love with this version of the song. I don't think this version ever existed before BSG (although i may be wrong). Before this I've only known of the original Bob Dylan version and the (actually Bob Dylan preferred!!!) Jimmy Hendrix version...along with a plethora of other artists that have taken a stab at the song, some good some bad ie: U2, Lenny Kravitz/Eric Clapton (which i also recommend), Dave Matthews Band, etc., etc....
I actually think Lenny Kravitz is the singer for this version of the song (sometimes i'm absoletly sure, sometimes im not...). Does anyone know where i can find out who sung this? when/if/how i can obtain a copy?...

 

[TBi]

Who created the first five is the question... some human(s) or the toasters?

Read my thoughts on this above

 

[Suture]

I'd say the Cylons were invented when Adama was a child, since both appear in the upcoming Caprica series.

Do you have a link by chance to this Caprica series thing? This is the first I've heard of it and I'm interested in seeing it when it's out. I looked around on Sci-Fi's website but couldn't find anything.

 

[telecomm]

Do you have a link by chance to this Caprica series thing? This is the first I've heard of it and I'm interested in seeing it when it's out. I looked around on Sci-Fi's website but couldn't find anything.

The upcoming Caprica series isn't clearly upcoming any longer, it looks like it might be shelved.

Edit: Link added.

 

[Suture]

The upcoming Caprica series isn't clearly upcoming any longer, it looks like it might be shelved.

Edit: Link added.

Thanks... I competely missed that section I guess.

 

[mattscott306]

The upcoming Caprica series isn't clearly upcoming any longer, it looks like it might be shelved.

I'm hoping it's not shelved, but that interview really makes it look like it's gonna. I think the backstory it would provide would be great, but I guess not enough people would watch it.

Edit: I'd take a mini-series on the creation of the cylons if they don't wanna make caprica.

 

[~Shard~]

But considering that Adama knew Tigh since before the first war, I'd say the skin jobs WERE around nearly from the beginning. The final (first?) five may have started the first war themselves from behind the scenes, and remained hidden even from their own kind after the other seven were later created. Who created the first five is the question... some human(s) or the toasters?

Exactly - and why would there have been no record of their creation? Plus, isn't that a bit backwards then? To create these highly advanced "skin jobs" then create inferior "toaster" models? No one had seen or knew anything about the "skin jobs" before the Cylons returned and attacked, isn't that odd then?...

And, if the final/first five are "just Cylons" and are machines when you get down to the basics of it, built by someone, then where do all these spiritual, after-life, etc. concepts fit in and how is that possible?

Ah, so many questions to answer in Season 4...

 

[Queso]

Those four cannot be Cylons as previously seen. They may contain Cylon consciousness in human bodies, or be as I said before avatars for a higher-state Cylon being. But if they were around as regular skin-jobs 40 years ago when Tigh and Adama first met, that would put Anders/Tyrol etc. as the same age. Anders was famous in the Colonies. You don't think anyone would have seen him on TV at some point and said "I know him from years back, he must be about 70 years old by now"?