The Official Doctor Who

[MikeTheC]

I certainly agree that the Timelords are more technologically advanced than the Daleks – but then history is littered with nations and armies that have been defeated by opponents with far fewer resources.

True. Look at the U.S. vs. Britain in the middle to late 1700s. Of course, we had help, which ties into ...

Plus, we don't know exactly what state the Daleks were in when they waged the war – their technology could have made some pretty serious advances, or their empire could have conquered a species with enough advanced tech to enable them to wage war on an equal footing.

Maybe they even had some help from a rogue Timelord or two – certain members of that race haven't shown many qualms in the past at betraying their people for their own gain...

Well, the Master is dead (presumably), so that leaves the Rani (possibly, but she didn't seem as anti-Gallifreyan as the Master), or possibly the War Chief (assuming he's still alive). That would account for already-established Time Lords. But, in a culture that old and big, there's gotta be at least the occassional dissenter.

And don't forget too that the Timelords have shown themselves to be quite an arrogant culture in the past – they may well have viewed the Dalek menace as no threat to them until it was too late.

That's very true, as I originally observed, and combined with the other points you make, certainly could have led to their undoing. And, the Daleks are somewhat cyborg-ish, so they may have been able to infiltrate some of the Time Lords' systems, given enough time and resources.

You know, another thought just occurred to me, going back to the earlier question about the Matrix.

Now, this is directed not just to Jaffa Cake, but everyone in this thread...

The Matrix on Gallifrey is used as a storage facility for the minds of deceased Time Lords, much like storing Vulcan katras in Star Trek. Part of how the Matrix is so advanced is that there are living minds inside it at work, now totally and permanently freed of any physicality and limitations persuant thereto. So long as basic maintenance is performed on the system, they will last indefinitely. The idea behind having the Matrix is basically a "think tank" by people with diverse experiences and extremely long lives to try and predict future events. So, I'd like to know how it is exactly that they failed to predict the Dalek attack.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'd just very much like to know how they pulled it off, because it's got to be one of the most brilliant decoys and duck blinds of all time.

 

[~Shard~]

Very good points and discussion MikeTheC, thanks! I loved the episode "The Deadly Assassin", I have a copy of the full thing on my computer.

I, too, initially wondered about the plausibility of the Daleks and Timelords warring, and the Timelords being wiped out - they just seem so much more powerful, and would in my mind have such great advantages - obviously this is not the case! And then simplistically, since the Timelords are masters of time travel, why couldn't they, or the Doctor, just travel back in time and fix things? Yes, I know it doesn't work that way... Maybe that was why they called it "The Time War", because it impacted/damaged the very fabric of space time.

I'm looking forward to seeing the final episode once it's been aired in the UK - only a few more hours, I believe! As I stated previously, here in Canada we get Doctor Who through the CBC, but it's every Tuesday, not Saturday, and it's a week behind, so I always make a point to "find" the episode on the Internet shortly after its initial airing. In the meantime though, I'll have to restrain myself from going to the Bad Wolf site, as tempting as it might be.

I am curious on how they will explain everything, who/what the Bad Wolf really is, etc. There are obviously lots of us Whovians out there who could come up with some pretty detailed theories, etc., but keep in mind that a lot of "new" viewers are out there too, and would be turned off the series if they solved this Bad Wolf/Time War mystery with something that only the hardcore fans would appreciate. New fans don't know who Davross is, who the Master is, or really anything else about the Timelords, Gallifrey, etc., so it will be interesting to see - hopefully the solution will satisfy Doctor Who fans at both ends of the spectrum.

 

[maya]

As far as society is concerned, Free is Free without regards to anything else for that matter.

That is in itself human nature to infringe on others work and try to pay the least if anything for something to have. Its a survival tactic, why spend something when you can either find other means to obtain it. If you do not get caught all the power to you to continue in your logic.

We have all broken the law at some point and time and it felt good when the idea was proposed, and then we think about it and see how it affects others in the process.

No one person is perfect, everyone is flawed. And that is life as it stands. It call comes down to Morals in the end.

Take Care.

 

[~Shard~]

<snip>

Okay, but... what the hell does this have to do with Doctor Who?!

 

[pianojoe]

So seriously get off your high-horse about copyright violation. It isn't copyright infringement here in the States because 1. the BBC is not a member of the MPAA, and 2. the series has not been licensed for the American market yet. It resides in the "gray area" of copyright here in the States.

This is, of course, an extremely stupid line of thought. You have been violating the rights of the creators of the show because you obtained a copy, and used it, without their consent. This is a criminal offence in the U.S.

It doesn't matter at all wether the material has been created within the U.S., or licensed to some company in the U.S.

If you write a song, and it's played in Dubai without your permission, this is against Dubaian law. They're infringing your rights! Really! Fortunately.

 

[~Shard~]

Can we please get the discussion back onto Doctor Who? Is that too much to ask?

I'm looking forward to comments on the finale, and am looking forward to watching it myself in the next couple of days....

 

[0098386]

the last episode is down right amazing. i cant really say much more than that. oh and it probably was the TV event of the year. gotta love the BBC!

very surprised at who/what BadWolf turned out to be. seemed like it did slightly go the Norse mythology way, but only slightly!

"They survived through me"

 

[HydroMan]

I won't say much about "Parting of the ways" except that a lot happens in ¾ of an hour and I'm sad to see the end of a series which at the beginning I thought would be a puerile show but turned out to have something for everyone, I'm looking forward to the next 25 episodes but need convincing about the new Doctor, Christopher Eccleston did a superb job of resurrecting a dead legend, even the guy who killed it off has admitted to making a mistake and the ratings have soared, they might even air it in America.

 

[0098386]

If you write a song, and it's played in Dubai without your permission, this is against Dubaian law. They're infringing your rights! Really! Fortunately.

i develop little shareware games, and magazines all over the world publish my games without asking me (which is something stated in the downloads), most notoriously Australia for some reason. if the MPAA and everyone else wants us to act legal then i suggest the higher powers do the same first.

does this mean i can sue the magazines?

 

[0098386]

I won't say much about "Parting of the ways" except that a lot happens in ¾ of an hour and I'm sad to see the end of a series which at the beginning I thought would be a puerile show but turned out to have something for everyone, I'm looking forward to the next 25 episodes but need convincing about the new Doctor, Christopher Eccleston did a superb job of resurrecting a dead legend, even the guy who killed it off has admitted to making a mistake and the ratings have soared, they might even air it in America.

Eccleston was an amazing Doctor. portrayed such a dark and scarred character. I do have high hopes for Tennant. saw him in Casanova and hes a very good actor himself. probably time for a more light-hearted doc though, and Tennant would be the guy to do that.

so anyways, "Barcelona"?

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Well, last night's episode was a real treat. Exciting and moving in equal doses. The only question is what the hell am I going to do with my Saturday evenings now?

Like Hydoman, I'm not 100% sure about David Tennant being the right man for the role – but then a lot of people thought the same of Christopher Ecclestone and he played the part perfectly in my opinion. Russell T. Davies certainly made the right choice there, so if he thinks Tennant is up to the role I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he makes the part his own.

Mind, you know you're starting to get old when you think the new Doctor looks really young...

 

[~Shard~]

Well, last night's episode was a real treat. Exciting and moving in equal doses. The only question is what the hell am I going to do with my Saturday evenings now?

Like Hydoman, I'm not 100% sure about David Tennant being the right man for the role – but then a lot of people thought the same of Christopher Ecclestone and he played the part perfectly in my opinion. Russell T. Davies certainly made the right choice there, so if he thinks Tennant is up to the role I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he makes the part his own.

Mind, you know you're starting to get old when you think the new Doctor looks really young...

Yah, I agree, give Russell Davies the benefit of the doubt - so far the series has been gold in his skilled hands. I just hope that regardless, Tennant sticks around longer than CE - whether CE ends up being better than him or not, I don't think it's good to be changing Doctors every year. Heck, I remember back when Davison took over, and I thought his 3 year reign was short! Then Colin Baker lasting only 2 afterwards! Mind you, after the lengthy run of Tom Baker, I suppose any period of time like that would seem short....

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I just hope that regardless, Tennant sticks around longer than CE - whether CE ends up being better than him or not, I don't think it's good to be changing Doctors every year.

I agree – and it seems the show's producers do, too. According to my Sunday paper (and these things are never wrong ), they've signed Tennant on for three series – and Billie Piper has now decided to stick around for another series at least. My girlfriend's first words post-regeneration were "Wow – the new Doctor's really good looking!" so they're guaranteed one regular viewer at least.

Apparently, they're going to start filming the new series over the next couple of weeks, and actually air it next March.

 

[~Shard~]

I agree – and it seems the show's producers do, too. According to my Sunday paper (and these things are never wrong ), they've signed Tennant on for three series – and Billie Piper has now decided to stick around for another series at least. My girlfriend's first words post-regeneration were "Wow – the new Doctor's really good looking!" so they're guaranteed one regular viewer at least.

Apparently, they're going to start filming the new series over the next couple of weeks, and actually air it next March.

Cool, thanks fore the info! Good to hear about Billie Piper. And hopefully they've made a good call in having Tennant stick around for so long - I'll trust that they know what they're doing.

And good news about the next series - although it can't come quick enough for me!

Hmm, I was about to say "bring on the Tenth Doctor!", but then I realized - did they ever really resolve "which" Doctor CE was? We never see McGann regenerate into him, how do we know he's really the Ninth Doctor? I brought this point up earlier in this thread I believe, but it just dawned on me again...

 

[HydroMan]

I agree – and it seems the show's producers do, too. According to my Sunday paper (and these things are never wrong ), they've signed Tennant on for three series – and Billie Piper has now decided to stick around for another series at least. My girlfriend's first words post-regeneration were "Wow – the new Doctor's really good looking!" so they're guaranteed one regular viewer at least.

Apparently, they're going to start filming the new series over the next couple of weeks, and actually air it next March.

Beat me to it Jaffa Cake.

The BBC confirm that Billie appears throughout the second series, I would post a link but it would spoil it for Canadians who haven't seen the last episode yet.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Hmm, I was about to say "bring on the Tenth Doctor!", but then I realized - did they ever really resolve "which" Doctor CE was? We never see McGann regenerate into him, how do we know he's really the Ninth Doctor? I brought this point up earlier in this thread I believe, but it just dawned on me again...

You're right – it's never been mentioned in an episode as far as I can remember. Russell T. Davies has stated though that he made the decision very early on not to show the McGann/Eccleston regeneration, preferring to leave it to be resolved in a novel or audio play – so it seems that in his mind at least Eccleston is indeed the Ninth.

On the other hand though, can we be 100% sure that the First Doctor (William Hartnell) really was the first? I seem to remember the Fourth Doctor having some sort of flashback to his earlier incarnations – and we saw not only footage of Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee but also a number of apparently earlier regenerations... or have I just imagined that in the intervening years?

 

[~Shard~]

The BBC confirm that Billie appears throughout the second series, I would post a link but it would spoil it for Canadians who haven't seen the last episode yet.

Thanks, I appreciate your consideration. Actually I just finished downloading it and am looking forward to watching it tomorrow when I have some time - can't wait! And it beats waiting until a week from Tuesday for the CBC to broadcast it...

You're right – it's never been mentioned in an episode as far as I can remember. Russell T. Davies has stated though that he made the decision very early on not to show the McGann/Eccleston regeneration, preferring to leave it to be resolved in a novel or audio play – so it seems that in his mind at least Eccleston is indeed the Ninth.

Makes sense. It would be cool to read the novel involving the regeneration though, just for interest's sake - I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for that in the future...

On the other hand though, can we be 100% sure that the First Doctor (William Hartnell) really was the first?

I was thinking the same thing, but then I thought of "The Five Doctors" episode and "The Three Doctors" episode before it - with supposedly "all" the Doctors together for these adventures, one would assume there weren't any before Hartnell. Of course, the possibility definitely exists...

I seem to remember the Fourth Doctor having some sort of flashback to his earlier incarnations – and we saw not only footage of Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee but also a number of apparently earlier regenerations... or have I just imagined that in the intervening years?

Hmm, can't recall that - and Tom Baker was the Doctor I was the most familiar with. See, now look what you've done, you've made me want to hunt through every Baker episode for this flashback! Sounds intriguing though, good point. If this was the case though, then we'd definitely be nearing the end of his regeneration cycle now, so it would be interesting to see how the writers would deal with this (or if they would cop out and simply grant him another cycle somehow... )

Hmm, so apart from this flashback you seem to recall, never ever in the 27 year history of Doctor Who did the Doctor ever indicate which incarnation he was currently at? It must have slipped out at some point one would think... interesting...

 

[HydroMan]

Some news about the second series from the Beebs website, my favourites are back -

Writer Russell T Davies has confirmed he will write six episodes of series two, which will see the return of classic villains the Cybermen.

"It's a joy to write - you couldn't have more fun," he told the BBC Breakfast programme on Thursday.

I also found this on DS but couldn't find the interview to substantiate this, but it could very well be true -

In the first series we had the Bad Wolf running through, is there anything similar in the second series?
"Yes there is, and that word has already been heard on screen. And that's all I'm saying. You'll have to go back and trawl through 13 episodes to realise what I'm on about".

"You'll hear the word in the Christmas special though"

 

[0098386]

woo! another running hype-builder!

i was going to say im quite surprised that nobody came knocking on my door during episode 13. i had my bedroom window opened (UK=hot!) and my sound system up very high... but i probably didnt get complaints cuz apparently the whole street was watching Who at least thats what the dog walkers tell me.

 

[Lacero]

Is it normal to cry watching Doctor Who? cuz the latest episode, I did.

 

[~Shard~]

Some news about the second series from the Beebs website, my favourites are back -

Writer Russell T Davies has confirmed he will write six episodes of series two, which will see the return of classic villains the Cybermen.

"It's a joy to write - you couldn't have more fun," he told the BBC Breakfast programme on Thursday.

I also found this on DS but couldn't find the interview to substantiate this, but it could very well be true -

In the first series we had the Bad Wolf running through, is there anything similar in the second series?
"Yes there is, and that word has already been heard on screen. And that's all I'm saying. You'll have to go back and trawl through 13 episodes to realise what I'm on about".

"You'll hear the word in the Christmas special though"

Wow, great news, thanks for the update! Interesting that Davies is bringing the Cybermen back, as I thought it was him who specifically said at one point during an interview that the Cybermen wouldn't be returning, simply because "they weren't scary anymore". Great to see them back though!

And another "Bad Wolf" mystery to try and unravel - excellent, I love things like this!

 

[MikeTheC]

There's really only two flashback sequences I recall from the TomDoc era. The first was "Brain of Morbius", where he mind-wrestles with another former ex-patriot Time Lord. And there may be random other people in it, but no other Doctors prior to BillDoc.

The second flashback is in Logopolis, when he is about to regenerate into PeteDoc, but there are no prior Doctors at all in that sequence, just former companions and some villians.

Unless there's some other one of which I am completely forgetting...

 

[~Shard~]

There's really only two flashback sequences I recall from the TomDoc era. The first was "Brain of Morbius", where he mind-wrestles with another former ex-patriot Time Lord. And there may be random other people in it, but no other Doctors prior to BillDoc.

The second flashback is in Logopolis, when he is about to regenerate into PeteDoc, but there are no prior Doctors at all in that sequence, just former companions and some villians.

Unless there's some other one of which I am completely forgetting...

Well, that's more than I remember! I remember the Logopolis one, and although I remember the title "Brain of Morbius" I can't recall the content, so thanks for the refresher!

Hmm, were there any clues along these lines in "The Trial of a Timelord"? The Doctor meets himself (the Valeyard), mention is made that he is "kind of" the last of the Doctor's regenerations... anything there? Ah well, it's not a big deal, just something fun to think about I guess.

 

[~Shard~]

Just watched "Parting of the Ways" again - damn that was an amazing episode.

A couple things I wanted to comment on though (so *SPOILER ALERT* for anyone who hasn't seen it yet):

1) I found it weird that with enough force, they were able to "open" the heart of the TARDIS for Rose. It seems like physical amounts of force should be irrelevant in accomplishing something like that. Or, perhaps it was - perhaps Rose wanted it to open so bad, it did, because of her will, with or without that huge truck yanking at it. Any thoughts?

2) If absorbing the time vortex "killed" the Doctor, a Timelord, forcing him to regenerate, why didn't it kill Rose? She still had it in her for a brief amount of time. Not long enough?

3) The kiss. Not quite necessary in my opinion, but I thought it was still well done, and somewhat appropriate. If someone would have told me ahead of time that the Doctor and Rose would kiss, I would have rolled my eyes and would have prepared myself for disappointment, expecting the episode to be ruined - after watching it though, I wasn't disappointed, and it didn;t really bother me. Yet there's still something about the Doctor kissing a Companion I don't know if I like - did that ever happen throughout the other Doctors' travels (apart from McGann in the movie)???

4) Even though we only had him for one season, even though he's no Tom Baker (IMO the best Doctor), and even though we haven't even seen what Tennant can do yet (perhaps he'll be better!), I think I will miss Christopher Eccelston - I thought he did an amazing job.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

There's really only two flashback sequences I recall from the TomDoc era. The first was "Brain of Morbius", where he mind-wrestles with another former ex-patriot Time Lord. And there may be random other people in it, but no other Doctors prior to BillDoc.

I reckon that's the one I was thinking of! I Googled it up... apparently in The Brain of Morbius they showed the Doctor's previous regenerations during his mental battle with the titular baddie – and as well as Pertwee, Troughton and Hartnell they showed a number of other faces that were (according to the script but not stated on screen) eight even earlier regenerations. The twelve regeneration rule then cropped up in a later episode and the extra faces (actually members of the production team in cameos) were explained away either as Morbius' previous regenerations, or false images conjured up by the Doctor to fool his opponent.