The Palm Pre's UI is peerless in its class.

[Palm Pimp]

Now Pre users can drag and drop OR sync with iTunes. Look at that, OPTIONS.

Does anyone know if/how the Pre will sync with iTunes?

Can I plug it in before I get in the shower and have it automatically update my iTunes playcounts for the music/videos I listened to the day before, and copy over my new podcasts?

Without that, for me (and I'm guessing others), this is just a sexier version of the G1. Great for people that just need a smartphone, but not helpful for people who need a smartphone + an iPod.

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/05/28/palm-pre-said-to-sync-up-nicely-with-apples-itunes/

Palm Pre said to sync up nicely with Apple's iTunes
by Darren Murph, posted May 28th 2009 @ 10:01AM

There's been no direct confirmation just yet, but Fortune has it that Palm's hotly anticipated Pre actually syncs with iTunes. Yeah, iTunes. According to the report, the Pre works "seamlessly" with iTunes on a Mac, with the only notable limitation being that it can't handle older DRM-laced files from the sad, sad days of our past. Even wilder, we're told that the iTunes Store "treats the Pre just as it would an iPod or an iPhone" save for the aforesaid exception, which leads us to wonder how Apple will react. There's little doubt that this factoid sweetens the Pre value proposition for diligent Mac users, but is this functionality kosher with the software's creator? We already saw Tim Cook glance sternly at Palm while uttering that if anyone else "ripped off its intellectual property, it would go after them," and we highly doubt he plans on backing down if push comes to shove. If true, this could definitely trigger an interesting chain of events -- we'll know soon enough, now won't we?

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/05/28/itunes-support-confirmed-for-palm-pre/

iTunes support confirmed for Palm Pre
by Darren Murph, posted May 28th 2009 @ 3:11PM

We'd already heard through the gravevine that iTunes support would be baked into Palm's forthcoming Pre, but now it's official. During Palm's D7 keynote today in Carlsbad, Paul Cousino showed attendees that non-DRM music, photos and videos could be synced with the Pre via iTunes (on Mac and Windows, naturally). In his words: "It shows up in iTunes just like a regular device."

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/05/28/palm-pre-user-guide-the-highlights-so-far/

Palm Pre User Guide: the highlights, so far
by Laura June, posted May 28th 2009 @ 8:31AM

When word that Sprint Gurus had gotten hold of the Palm Pre User Guide came across our desks yesterday, we couldn't wait to get our eyes all over it... and then we saw that it was almost as long as Infinite Jest. Okay, we kid, it's not as bad as all that -- just 344 pages of heretofore unseen glorious tidbits.

So here's what we've culled thus far: first, the Pre's main musical squeeze, Amazon MP3, will queue your music downloads when on the 3G network for later download when the device is on a WiFi network -- which is sure to cause annoyance and dismay the whole world over (and by "world" we mean the Pre's world, which is the US only). There is however, plenty of good news: the Pre will, in fact have IMAP IDLE (AKA Push) Gmail capabilities, meaning that you'll get your spam nearly the moment it hits Gmail's servers.

Finally, the previously spied Reminder field in the Pre's Contacts has been found out, and it's a really awesome feature allowing you to make a note and attach it to a particular contact, so that the next time you are in contact with that person, the reminder will pop up and... remind you.

For anyone suffering mild memory loss (like us) little touches like this are sure to make the Pre a more attractive proposition. Hit the read link for the full manual, and let us know what you find. Warning: the user's manual is a PDF, and has an insanely huge Sprint Gurus watermark across every blasted page.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/28/palm-live-from-d7/
http://palmgoon.com/palm-all-things-digital-refresh-to-update/

Amazon.com mp3s

 

[Eso]

We want to move quickly between a set of applications. Typically from App A to App B.

The desired behavior is App B appears instantly .. and when we return to App A - the transition is instant and App A is exactly the same state as when we left it.

Such behavior does not need require multi-tasking. Exactly the same benefit is achievable with faster task suspension and resumption.

For 99% of the time we don't care if task A is actually running, while task B is in the foreground. In fact it is preferable that it is not.

What you describe is the what I meant when Apple compromised with multitasking in just having apps open to the screen you left them, which mimics multitasking behavior. I also listed some reasons why it falls short.

For the most part, while programs are idling they aren't actively running at all. That is to say there is virtually no load on the CPU whether the program is in the foreground or background (unless you want them doing something like downloading, playing music, and so on). Here's a picture of my taskbar showing my running programs (iTunes is playing music) as well as the load on the CPU (meager 4%):



The issue is more of each task taking up space in memory - but that is exactly what memory is there for. As long as there is still available memory in RAM, it's doesn't really matter how many tasks it is split between. Palm has stated it expects the Pre has enough memory to run 15 of your average-sized apps simultaneously.

I think there are a few simple solutions to this:

Solution 1.

...

Solution 2.

...

Of course, the phone would need more RAM and a way to handle running out of said RAM with open apps.

I am confused. Didn't you say multitasking isn't important - why bother coming up with solutions? Anyways, they would both work (as it does with jailbreaking), but it would be clumsy. The point people have been making about the Pre is just how elegant their card system is in implementing multitasking.

I imagine Apple would rather redesign the springboard to support application switching instead of coding an awkward work-around with the taskbar. We've seen enough of 3.0, however, to suggest that it won't be happening any time soon.

 

[Maven1975]

I just cut the cord

I LOVE my iPhone and all it has to offer. I am sure the new iPhone will be even better! I am a huge iPhone fan and have had one/them since day one.

HOWEVER, I am sick and tired of getting a$$ raped by AT&T. Seriously, you would think with the premium we pay, dropped calls and/or no signal's would be non existent. Who the hell charges $30 for data and then has the balls to charge you for txt?!! Not to mention their voice plans.

Now, I know there are issues on both sides and Sprint may, or may not be great in you area. Here in AZ, AT&T just plain sucks. 3rd largest city in the nation and they cant get with it. Sprint is far superior for us in the desert. Their plans and blind eye to discount code put them on top. ($80+tx for everything unlimited after business discount)

I will be back... when/if another carrier becomes an option.

Enjoy you iPhones! I will be jealous until the day I return.

I just hope this pre is about 70% as good as the iPhone.

 

[buddyman]

Firsth let me just tell you guys how impressed i am for how you have taken the Pre here at Macrumors.

To be honest i came here to have a laugh at apple fanbois, but instead found this thread and from the first 4 pages that i read through, i was unable to do so.
Sure there were few peeps who obiviously knew wery little about the pre which is what the thread is about, and just bashed it straight from the get go without actually knowing too much about it. Just for the apples.

I read many of you are worried about the battery life of the pre and other very important things of the pre. Im not sure if you have found out yet, but there is a forum thread ( http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/181121-got-pre-play-few-days.html ) in which an user who actually has been using the pre for a couple of days is answering questions to these questions.

Look for yourself if you don't believe me, but he seems more legit than the so called first blog review of Boy Genius Report. There is also photos he has taken with the pre's camera and photos of him holding the pre etc etc.

I realize this is my first post here + my english is bad since im not a native english speaker, but don't judge me, judge what i bring to the table. Did i read through this entire thread to see if there already was a link to the thread i gave. NO. Sorry about that, but the first 3-4 pages were all i needed to make this post.

 

[Carniphage]

What you describe is the what I meant when Apple compromised with multitasking in just having apps open to the screen you left them, which mimics multitasking behavior. I also listed some reasons why it falls short.

We might be talking at crossed purposes here.

But my belief is that true multi-tasking implies background processing. And in my opinion, any background process in a 3rd party app is going to cause a progressive drain on resources that will slow the device down.

So I think Apple are right to shift background activities into the system wherever possible.

But where I do agree with you is that when we leave an application, the app and its data should remain in memory until it is absolutely essential to reclaim that memory. This would solve the main problem. When we re-enter the app, if it is still resident in RAM it could simply resume. If it not in memory it would need to restart conventionally.

I think that would give the type of workflow you describe, and retain the benefits of having only one real foreground application active.

What I am not sure about, because I have only tinkered with the SDK, is whether Cocoa applications intrinsically use more memory than the equivalent WebOS apps.

C.

 

[kdarling]

And in my opinion, any background process in a 3rd party app is going to cause a progressive drain on resources that will slow the device down.

As compared to apps that use extra battery and precious flash cycles by having to save/reload for no reason, instead of just pausing?

Your opinion sounds more like layman mythology. What is your handheld development experience?

Thanks - Kev

 

[Carniphage]

As compared to apps that use extra battery and precious flash cycles by having to save/reload for no reason, instead of just pausing?

Your opinion sounds more like layman mythology. What is your handheld development experience?

Thanks - Kev

I don't think we have to worry about "precious" flash cycles anymore. It's not 2004 anymore.

I have enough development experience to know that with any performance sensitive app, it is just unacceptable for that application to only have access to 70% or 50% of the CPU because an unknown set of backgrounded applications are sitting there, stealing CPU time.

Frankly there's just no significant benefit to having backgrounded applications chewing-up CPU - it's just better that any ongoing activity is handed to some kind of helper thread in the system.

But there *is* a benefit to instant suspend and resume. Which if you read what I am proposing, obviates the need for save and restore - and delivers almost all of the benefits of "full" multi-tasking.

C.

 

[garethjs]

I'm a real big apple fan but I have to admit that right out of the box the apple pre is impressive. It's taken apple 2 devices and several software updates to come close. I'm really praying the next iphone impresses me more. A front camera (as seen in the leaked photos) for ichat calling is going to blow the pre away.

 

[kdarling]

I don't think we have to worry about "precious" flash cycles anymore. It's not 2004 anymore.

The inexpensive mass storage flash used in the current iPod or iPhone has only a 5,000 cycle life. That's likely why video recording and web cache weren't allowed.

I have enough development experience to know that with any performance sensitive app, it is just unacceptable for that application to only have access to 70% or 50% of the CPU because an unknown set of backgrounded applications are sitting there, stealing CPU time.

If they're just sitting there, they're only using up RAM. This is the most common case with multiple open applications with visual interfaces. On handhelds, they sleep until brought forward.

If they _are_ doing something in the background, then it depends on how often and how much. It's very unlikely they'd be using more than 5-10% of the cpu, in any case. (The most intensive would probably be a background GPS app with additional network access, since Apple uses a chip that offloads most work to the main cpu.)

Frankly there's just no significant benefit to having backgrounded applications chewing-up CPU - it's just better that any ongoing activity is handed to some kind of helper thread in the system.

That would work for known items. Trouble is, the system can't predict what future apps might need. But yes, a good selection of system services would be nice. Alas, the iPhone fails there, since there's not even the most basic OS service... system timers... to wake up an app.

But there *is* a benefit to instant suspend and resume. Which if you read what I am proposing, obviates the need for save and restore - and delivers almost all of the benefits of "full" multi-tasking.

I'm not against that idea, as long as the system keeps context for me if I wish it (and I often do). But with today's hardware, it does involve adding delays restarting the app, and extra effort in development.

I agree that there are trade-offs, and Apple has chosen the way they want to go, and that's their perogative.

Regards.

 

[Carniphage]

The inexpensive mass storage flash used in the current iPod or iPhone has only a 5,000 cycle life.

Have you got a source for that? Most flash devices now have much higher cycle lifetimes.

That's likely why video recording and web cache weren't allowed.

No video recording is down to not having a custom chip to encode video. You could encode on the CPU ... if you wanted to wait 5 minutes while your phone turned into a hand-warmer.

C.

 

[Rat-Boy]

I am confused. Didn't you say multitasking isn't important - why bother coming up with solutions? Anyways, they would both work (as it does with jailbreaking), but it would be clumsy. The point people have been making about the Pre is just how elegant their card system is in implementing multitasking.

I imagine Apple would rather redesign the springboard to support application switching instead of coding an awkward work-around with the taskbar. We've seen enough of 3.0, however, to suggest that it won't be happening any time soon.

I said it is not as high on MY preference list as some of the things the phone already offers.

I also said on a small screen, multi tasking where you can see two apps at the same time is next to impossible.

What we are now talking about now appears to be switching between apps in an intuitive manner. I have no problem hitting the home button, scrolling to the next app, and pressing the icon.

But some feel there should be an easier way to switch between apps.

Just because I felt that the multi-tasking thing hasn't bothered ME, doesn't mean it isn't important to other people.

It obviously is.

That is why I decided to show a few simple to implement solutions.

My question is, if an app is in full screen mode on the Pre, then how do you get it to shrink and become a "card" that you can then scroll off the screen to the next "card"??

Or do the Pre apps never run in full screen mode?

At any rate, I actually think my main button solution makes pretty good sense as a way to do it without having to do massive cosmetic changes to the current OS.

You just hit the button and it brings up the list of apps and a lock button at the bottom of the list.

 

[Rat-Boy]

You know, after just watching another video of the Pre, I STILL don't see what the big deal is.

If you are running an app in full screen mode, and you want to switch apps:

Pre: You have to hit a button or do a gesture, and then flick to scroll between apps, then press the next app you want.

On the iPhone: I have to hit a button and then flick to the page where the icons are, then press the icon.

I just don't see a huge difference in HOW you switch between apps on the two phones.

They only real difference is that the Pre keeps them open in the back ground and the iPhone doesn't.

 

[Kahnyl]

I jailbroke my phone again last night out of boredom. At one point I was reading Tweetie listening to Ambience. I also was able to record some video while I changed my brightness settings. Little things I wasn't able to do before.

Seriously, I can't believe there are people arguing against multitasking.

 

[kdarling]

Seriously, I can't believe there are people arguing against multitasking.

You know, we went through these discussions back in the mid-80s when multitasking personal computers came out. Users without it, had the same naive questions as to why you'd want multitasking.

It's like someone saying that they don't see any reason why anyone would kiss and have intercourse at the same time. They argue that doing first one, then stopping and doing the other, then stopping and going back to the first, is the "same thing".

No, it's not.

Some things just have to be experienced.

 

[Kahnyl]

lol..right.

 

[cellocello]

It's like someone saying that they don't see any reason why anyone would kiss and have intercourse at the same time. They argue that doing first one, then stopping and doing the other, then stopping and going back to the first, is the "same thing".

Oh wow ... there's a million jokes in there.

God I wish the mods weren't so strict around here

 

[Rat-Boy]

You know, we went through these discussions back in the mid-80s when multitasking personal computers came out. Users without it, had the same naive questions as to why you'd want multitasking.

It's like someone saying that they don't see any reason why anyone would kiss and have intercourse at the same time. They argue that doing first one, then stopping and doing the other, then stopping and going back to the first, is the "same thing".

No, it's not.

Some things just have to be experienced.

LOL..

Your analogy is not really a good one.

You are talking about actively kissing and having intercourse at the same time, which both require interaction from you.

How are you going to actively type an email AND surf the web on the Pre in a way that is different than on the iPhone? You can't get to both at the same time in reality as you have to make the cards bigger to be able to interact with them with any degree of ease on the Pre.

And as far as experiencing "multi-tasking" on a phone, going by the definition some are using here, the iPhone can do it and in fact, every time I have tried to "multi-task" on the iPhone, it has worked flawlessly.

The only times I have tried to run two apps at once:

1) Listening to music while using the stopwatch to time my exercising. iPhone does it no problem.

2) Listening to music and playing a game. iPhone does it no problem.

3) Being on a phone call in speaker mode and accessing Google Maps and/or emails. iPhone does it no problem. Pre can't do this one.

So I have experienced it and yes, it is handy.

I am also not arguing against every app being able to stay running in the background provided the memory, battery and CPU are handled in a very good way.

I am just saying the iPhone can do the multi-tasking I need, and it can do things the Pre can't, and for me, those things are vital. And I am also saying that I don't see the Pre's navigation as being superior to the iPhone at all.

You still have to touch the phone to shrink the app, flick to the new app, then click to bring that app up.

Same exact thing on the iPhone basically.

So really, what it boils down to is keeping apps running in the background. This is the only real difference between the Pre and iPhone that I see.

 

[Night Spring]

You know, after just watching another video of the Pre, I STILL don't see what the big deal is.

If you are running an app in full screen mode, and you want to switch apps:

Pre: You have to hit a button or do a gesture, and then flick to scroll between apps, then press the next app you want.

On the iPhone: I have to hit a button and then flick to the page where the icons are, then press the icon.

I just don't see a huge difference in HOW you switch between apps on the two phones.

They only real difference is that the Pre keeps them open in the back ground and the iPhone doesn't.

I see your point that the difference isn't as HUGE as some people are making it out to be. But because Pre apps stay open in the background, presumably there is no wait for the app to start up when you switch. Whereas some iPhone apps take a few seconds to start up. For instance I have one task management app that always take forever to start up. True, it is not a huge hardship to wait the few seconds, but it would be nice if there was no wait.

What I'm wondering right now about the Pre is, sure it might switch between apps faster than the iPhone, but would there be any worthwhile apps for it? For me to be convinced to switch to the Pre, it'll have to have killer apps that aren't available on the iPhone. Otherwise, the few seconds saved with the Pre's task-switching method won't be enough for *me* to make the switch. So I guess I agree with you that Pre's multitasking abilty isn't the be-all end-all of things. It's just one of many features we have to weigh when deciding on a mobile device that fits our needs and wants.

 

[Rat-Boy]

But because Pre apps stay open in the background, presumably there is no wait for the app to start up when you switch. Whereas some iPhone apps take a few seconds to start up.

Exactly.

The only real difference between the two is that the Pre might be a tad faster due to keeping the apps running.

As far as switching between apps, there is virtually no difference I can see after watching the videos.

On either phone, it takes a button/swipe to handle the current app, then a swipe to find the app you want (whether running or not), and then a press to open the app.

What I'm wondering right now about the Pre is, sure it might switch between apps faster than the iPhone, but would there be any worthwhile apps for it? Guess we'll have to wait to find out.

Yup. That will be a huge waiting game.

 

[kdarling]

LOL.. Your analogy is not really a good one.

Yeah, I know. Just trying to lighten things up.

I am just saying the iPhone can do the multi-tasking I need, ...

Okay, but it doesn't do so for me.

A major problem is that not every app saves state. If my daughter's playing Flick Bowling, in the last frame, and I have to look up something in Maps, she's pretty mad... and rightfully so, since she has to start over.

And I am also saying that I don't see the Pre's navigation as being superior to the iPhone at all.

I think it's superior, for multitasking, to anything else out there on handhelds**. My 85 year old Mom could learn to flick between apps and wipe away the ones she doesn't want any more.

Same exact thing on the iPhone basically.

If, and only if, every single app on the iPhone saved perfect state, started infinitely quick, and the system kept context for me. (Okay, the latter is more geared toward WM style.)

So really, what it boils down to is keeping apps running in the background. This is the only real difference between the Pre and iPhone that I see.

Yes, it hit me today that the real problem is that the iPhone is so limited when compared to other phones, in regards to really useful background processing.

From apps as simple as timer based notifications, to GPS-enabled changing of profiles or automatic I'm-late text messaging, to just plain Pandora or Sling in the background... the iPhone is nothing more than the 1982 version of an icon-grid based single-tasking computer.

It should be so much more. The device should do things for us in the background. Apple has taken the cheap, easy way out, and made the user do the task switching. More on this later. Horrible work load today.

** With the exception of others like it, for example the Nvidia carousel demo.

 

[Palm Pimp]

You know, after just watching another video of the Pre, I STILL don't see what the big deal is.

If you are running an app in full screen mode, and you want to switch apps:

Pre: You have to hit a button or do a gesture, and then flick to scroll between apps, then press the next app you want.

On the iPhone: I have to hit a button and then flick to the page where the icons are, then press the icon.

I just don't see a huge difference in HOW you switch between apps on the two phones.

They only real difference is that the Pre keeps them open in the back ground and the iPhone doesn't.

Umm, that's the whole point, one is multiutasking and the other isn't you're closing one app to open another.

 

[cellocello]

Umm, that's the whole point, one is multiutasking and the other isn't you're closing one app to open another.

And his point is that it's functionally the same (barring things like "context", although that is indeed often saved):

Browser app -> button press -> swipe -> icon press -> Photo app

Photo app -> button press -> swipe -> icon press -> Maps app

That process is the same on both units.

 

[skwoytek]

Apple notification server wasn't announced until WWDC, hopefully we'll see some new ideas from Apple. The first I'd like to see is the ability for apps to add events to the iPhone's internal event scheduler. This would allow ToDo apps to notify you of items, billing apps to notify when x amount of time has passed, etc. There are hundreds of apps that could benefit. It clearly already exists on the iPhone, and is basically the APNS - locally.

But they could even allow developers to register for background approval. Some developers may not like it, but I can see the trade off. Not every app needs background tasks.

Regarding apps starting quickly and with state, this is usually poor developing. I've seen simple apps that constantly take forever, and I've seen complex apps that almost immediately allow the user to start interfacing while more complex parts of the app load. The iPhone OS itself adds almost no additional delay when compared to the Pre's app switching.

And I still haven't seen the Pre being used throughout the day. In which case more apps would be left open, more cards would have to be sorted and switching would take longer. Or more apps would have to be opened to do that one thing, then closed again anyway. When I "multi-task" on the iPhone I usually only need an app once to grab something and I'm done. I can't think of too many cases where even on the Pre that app would have already been open.

 

[Rat-Boy]

Yeah, I know. Just trying to lighten things up.
Okay, but it doesn't do so for me.

Exactly why I am not opposed to them improving it, THE RIGHT WAY.

A major problem is that not every app saves state. If my daughter's playing Flick Bowling, in the last frame, and I have to look up something in Maps, she's pretty mad... and rightfully so, since she has to start over.

Fair enough. But Flight Control, a VERY popular game, DOES save state.

So is this Apple's fault, or the application's fault? 50-50 I guess.

I think it's superior, for multitasking, to anything else out there on handhelds**. My 85 year old Mom could learn to flick between apps and wipe away the ones she doesn't want any more.

And for Apple to implement it from a software perspective, all they need is a way to make the app smaller or put the app in "flick to next app mode."

And then allow apps to stay in memory. Like I said, I hope it happens for all those that want it so bad. I just want it done right and not kill my battery.

If, and only if, every single app on the iPhone saved perfect state, started infinitely quick, and the system kept context for me. (Okay, the latter is more geared toward WM style.)

Yes, it hit me today that the real problem is that the iPhone is so limited when compared to other phones, in regards to really useful background processing.

I agree, this would be the perfect world scenario.

From apps as simple as timer based notifications, to GPS-enabled changing of profiles or automatic I'm-late text messaging, to just plain Pandora or Sling in the background... the iPhone is nothing more than the 1982 version of an icon-grid based single-tasking computer.

It should be so much more. The device should do things for us in the background. Apple has taken the cheap, easy way out, and made the user do the task switching. More on this later. Horrible work load today.

I can kind of agree with that.

But would hope they at least did this for what they felt was a good reason and not just to piss iPhone owners off.

 

[brian doherty]

Okay, but it doesn't do so for me.

A major problem is that not every app saves state. If my daughter's playing Flick Bowling, in the last frame, and I have to look up something in Maps, she's pretty mad... and rightfully so, since she has to start over.

That's the developers fault. On games such as Rolando, your game is saved exactly where you are and a badge is included on the icon to let you know how many little rollie guys you still have to save. Calls, texts, etc don't interrupt many of the higher quality games because developers implemented instant save features.

As long as AIM can do instant push notifications, and Mail can be set up to have a pop up notification when new email comes in, I see no reason in trying to kill the battery wasting CPU cycles in the background to run multiple apps.