The Palm Pre's UI is peerless in its class.

[Carniphage]

/facepalm

javascript does not run in a virtual environment, however it does make calls to one thing that makes calls to another, instead of making direct calls. Java and javascript have absolutely nothing to do with each other despite the names.

Wow, both inefficient *and* crippled.

and you'd be entirely wrong. It's not hard to make a drawing application using web technologies.

It's painting, and requires a lot of GPU raster operations. Blending, blurring, repeated compositing.
Don't think that's a real strong-point for web technologies.

For that matter, ever seen a real videogame written in Javascript?
Didn't think so.
How about 3D?

C.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

For that matter, ever seen a real videogame written in Javascript?
Didn't think so.
How about 3D?

C.

Don't patronize me. I have, multiple times on this forum, stated the short comings and advantages of javascript.

 

[NT1440]

Wow, both inefficient *and* crippled.


It's painting, and requires a lot of GPU raster operations. Blending, blurring, repeated compositing.
Don't think that's a real strong-point for web technologies.

For that matter, ever seen a real videogame written in Javascript?
Didn't think so.
How about 3D?

C.

Wow, you are 100% anti- pre aren't you?

Do you know anything about programming? (honest question)
A simple paint program is NOT a heavy load. If the original Macintosh could do it way back then, a cell phone deffinatly has the umph to do it today.

 

[Carniphage]

Don't patronize me. I have, multiple times on this forum, stated the short comings and advantages of javascript.

And I have said the Pre is a clever, ballsy but ultimately compromised technology.

It can do this web stuff fine. Which lets Palm steal a march on Windows Mobile, and Android and Symbian.

But if you look at what is actually selling on the iPhone. It isn't the web-type apps. Which are largely given away for free. The biggest share of revenue is actually games which are predicated on getting access to the GPU and running in OpenGL.

The Pre offers the ability to run multiple web-pages filled with web-type apps. But that limits it as a platform for sale-able applications.

is all.

And if you are trying to sell a game to paying customers. The very last thing you want is that game competing for CPU cycles with a bunch of background-running apps written by numpties who could not count cycles if they were numbered.

C.

 

[Carniphage]

Wow, you are 100% anti- pre aren't you?

Do you know anything about programming? (honest question)
A simple paint program is NOT a heavy load. If the original Macintosh could do it way back then, a cell phone deffinatly has the umph to do it today.

I have been writing commercial videogames since 1984. So I know a little bit.

And I have also noticed that when I run Photoshop on my Mac Pro, the fans kick in when I do a lot of painting. I wonder what that means?

I *am* impressed by what Palm have done. Their company was in the toilet and have pulled out a seriously impressive device by following the Web Techologies route. It's a brilliant short-cut.

But that short-cut has a price. And the price is that the device just sucks at a certain class of application.

C.

 

[NT1440]

And I have also noticed that when I run Photoshop on my Mac Pro, the fans kick in when I do a lot of painting. I wonder what that means?

C.

It means your using PHOTOSHOP!

Show me an app on the iphone for drawing that is anywhere NEAR that intensive! We arent talking about running an application like that, we are talking about a MOBILE drawing program. The one that did that cover isn't intensive at all, hence it can be run by a mere phone. The Pre (along with javascript) shouldn't have any problem at all with that.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

And I have also noticed that when I run Photoshop on my Mac Pro, the fans kick in when I do a lot of painting. I wonder what that means?

So Adobe's putting photoshop on the iPhone?

 

[Carniphage]

It means your using PHOTOSHOP!

Show me an app on the iphone for drawing that is anywhere NEAR that intensive! We arent talking about running an application like that, we are talking about a MOBILE drawing program. The one that did that cover isn't intensive at all, hence it can be run by a mere phone. The Pre (along with javascript) shouldn't have any problem at all with that.

I guess the Brushes App on the iPhone uses OpenGL to do the heavy lifting. It'll take the contents of the frame-buffer and use various arithmetic blend-modes to apply the paintbrush bitmap (combined with pixel values already in the frame buffer). OpenGL on the iPhone is then actioned through the GPU. Which in the case of the iPhone is the old PowerVR chip which once graced the Sega Dreamcast.

Now you *could* do this in native code on the CPU. But it'd be really slow.
If you could point me to a JavaScript app which does this sort of thing, I would be grateful.

C.

 

[robothero]

You heard it here first: Photoshop on the iPhone to be announced at WWDC 09.

 

[applecultvictim]

@TuffLuff and @NT

The man is making a simple and correct argument,

And I have said the Pre is a clever, ballsy but ultimately compromised technology.

It can do this web stuff fine. Which lets Palm steal a march on Windows Mobile, and Android and Symbian.

But if you look at what is actually selling on the iPhone. It isn't the web-type apps. Which are largely given away for free. The biggest share of revenue is actually games which are predicated on getting access to the GPU and running in OpenGL.
C.

if you guys keep misconstruing it to somehow claim you are right, then you aren't replying to what he said but to your own straw men arguments. Excellent.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

<snip>

with the right hooks and support, you can do quite well with Javascript. Ever write a SVG program? Ever make an ActiveX for system calls?)

Looks like you can use javascript to dump calls to the GPU.

 

[Eso]

But if you look at what is actually selling on the iPhone. It isn't the web-type apps. Which are largely given away for free. The biggest share of revenue is actually games which are predicated on getting access to the GPU and running in OpenGL.

It's pretty clear the Pre isn't interested in competing within the gaming market. On the other hand, I think even Apple was surprised at how successful gaming has become on the iPod Touch/iPhone and is increasingly marketing it in that direction.

I don't see 3D gaming as a huge selling point for the smartphone market.

 

[johnqh]

I don't see 3D gaming as a huge selling point for the smartphone market.

What do you mean that you don't see? It already is.

Ask any teenagers.

 

[ravenvii]

Huh, anyone noticed the lolcats-esque grammatical error on the TIME page in the screenshots?

It's also amusing how people spoke with such authority that they will replace their iPhones with Pres, even though they've not even seen the new iPhone. My bet is, they'd stand in line on Pre's launch day, then a week later when the new iPhone is revealed, they'd be salivating over that and switching back. Morons.

If you are smart, you'd wait until the new iPhone is revealed, then make a comparison between the two before making a purchase.

 

[NT1440]

What do you mean that you don't see? It already is.

Ask any teenagers.

I'm 17, I don't give a damn about gaming on my ipod, I have a few but they are merely boredom busters.

Anecdotal evidence, i know, but I'd wager that when looking at a phone gaming isn't amazingly high on the list seeing as it pretty much only happens when board in class...

 

[applecultvictim]

I'm 17, I don't give a damn about gaming on my ipod, I have a few but they are merely boredom busters.

Anecdotal evidence, i know, but I'd wager that when looking at a phone gaming isn't amazingly high on the list seeing as it pretty much only happens when board in class...

Well you are wrong and after a couple of years of iPhones and touches, and other smart phones, this is self evident now on where the gaming market stands here. It's all completely expected this convergence of gaming device and smart phone.

 

[NT1440]

Well you are wrong and after a couple of years of iPhones and touches, and other smart phones, this is self evident now on where the gaming market stands here. It's all completely expected this convergence of gaming device and smart phone.

Oh I have no doubt that it will become a big factor, but only because Apple was so surprised by the gaming potential showed that they are now focusing on that in their marketing.

Things are heading that way, but it sure isn't a MAJOR factor right now for most people.

 

[Kev1000000]

For those that think javascript is limited, check this out..

http://bel.fi/~alankila/plasma.html

or

http://canvaspaint.org/


Javascript with HTML 5 (which is what the Pre supports) is a lot more powerful than you think. Dont count 3D games out just yet. And BTW, most of the successful iPhone games are 2D and could easily be done in javascript.

 

[Rat-Boy]

I thought we have gone over this...

4) Apps running in the background (selectively by the user, of course).

5) Previous apps automatically return to attention when secondary, multitasked apps are closed or minimized. This is a large part of what keeps thoughts and workflow organized. Instead of writing an email, replying to a text, and being booted back to the home screen, it's: writing an email, replying to a text, and back to writing your email. It may seem like a subtle difference, but in practice it is just much more intuitive with respect to how our brains work. I think you are underestimating just how much it improves user experience.

I just don't understand the debate.

There really isn't a debate.

I have already agreed that the iPhone needs to be made to be able to run multiple apps at once if the user wants to. AND IT IS IMPLEMENTED RIGHT.

My #3 in my mind is your #4. That is what I meant, even if I didn't portray it well.

And I have already agreed, and offered a few solutions to, the fact that the UI would have to be modified to support it because currently, there is no way of knowing what is running in the back ground.

So I am really not sure of what you are trying to argue with all of that.

How about some UI mod ideas? I gave two, and they both kind of stink but were just quick thoughts.

One was to have the top button bring up a menu with all the running stuff, as well as a lock option, instead of just locking the phone.

But I would love to hear some other ideas.

 

[Carniphage]

For those that think javascript is limited, check this out..

http://bel.fi/~alankila/plasma.html

or

http://canvaspaint.org/


Javascript with HTML 5 (which is what the Pre supports) is a lot more powerful than you think. Dont count 3D games out just yet. And BTW, most of the successful iPhone games are 2D and could easily be done in javascript.

Wow that's amazing! I could paint the New Yorker Cover with an app like that.

Oh no - actually I couldn't because it would look like *****.

Listen. Web apps are great for listing addresses, and even scrolling maps about. But web APIs are limited when it comes to hitting the metal. If you want to do 3D or manipulate images you have to have access to the GPU.

It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Most productivity applications do not need this kind of functionality. They pull down data from the internet and stick it on a screen. The WebOS approach is just fine and dandy.

But if you want to do more, then you need a native application that can hit the metal. Sure. the Pre can't currently do this. Perhaps it will in the future.

But if you look at the type of applications that people actually pay money for, then I think the iPhone is a bit stronger as a platform.

is all

C.

 

[Kev1000000]

Wow that's amazing! I could paint the New Yorker Cover with an app like that.

Oh no - actually I couldn't because it would look like *****.

Listen. Web apps are great for listing addresses, and even scrolling maps about. But web APIs are limited when it comes to hitting the metal. If you want to do 3D or manipulate images you have to have access to the GPU.

It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Most productivity applications do not need this kind of functionality. They pull down data from the internet and stick it on a screen. The WebOS approach is just fine and dandy.

But if you want to do more, then you need a native application that can hit the metal. Sure. the Pre can't currently do this. Perhaps it will in the future.

But if you look at the type of applications that people actually pay money for, then I think the iPhone is a bit stronger as a platform.

is all

C.

If gaming is your primary focus for your phone, yeah, go with the iPhone. However, the Pre can hold its own and even beat out the iPhone with its "limited" SDK in almost every other category.

 

[Carniphage]

If gaming is your primary focus for your phone, yeah, go with the iPhone. However, the Pre can hold its own and even beat out the iPhone with its "limited" SDK in almost every other category.

You are right. If you include Google Earth as a game. Or the paint application. Or any app which makes use of OpenGL.

C.

 

[Rat-Boy]

However, the Pre can hold its own and even beat out the iPhone with its "limited" SDK in almost every other category.

Really?

I find this statement to be truly truly comical.

Is that the claim to fame?

That a device that is NOT OUT yet can "hold its own and even beat out the YEAR OLD iPhone in almost every category???

Which categories are those??

Because from where I sit, if the iPhone COULD run multiple apps at once, and had a minor UI tweak to be able to switch between them, then the Pre wouldn't be able to touch iPhone's jock.

And don't waste this forum's time calling me a Fan Boy.

I just looked around my house. I see 5 computers with 0 Apple Logos.

 

[Kev1000000]

Really?

I find this statement to be truly truly comical.

Is that the claim to fame?

That a device that is NOT OUT yet can "hold its own and even beat out the YEAR OLD iPhone in almost every category???

Which categories are those??

Because from where I sit, if the iPhone COULD run multiple apps at once, and had a minor UI tweak to be able to switch between them, then the Pre wouldn't be able to touch iPhone's jock.

And don't waste this forum's time calling me a Fan Boy.

I just looked around my house. I see 5 computers with 0 Apple Logos.

Palm's SDK allows for access to a lot of areas that Apple's SDK keeps locked down. Sure, webOS is not a gaming platform, we know this. But it DOES accel over Apple's SDK by allowing integrated notification support, access to calendar and other crucial data stores, and the ability to run in the background.

Now, my statement that WebOS is better than Mobile OSX for any other app other than gaming is because of these 3 features.

Take an IM app. With system wide notifications and backround support, WebOS wins by a landslide.

Take a movie showtime app. After buying tickets, WebOS allows you to add your movie directly into your personal calendar with a notification. WebOS wins.

Take GPS app. With the ability to run in the background, you can sense when the user enters into any area and provide contextual notifications, or really, do anything you want (maybe turn the phone on silent, turn off mail, etc). WebOS wins.

Task, Calendar, GTD, etc apps. With the ability to enter in events into your personal calendar, provide notifications, and run in the background, WebOS wins by a landslide again. With the iPhone, task management apps suck, because you HAVE to actual load up the app to get anything useful out of it. With WebOS, you can have stuff auto sync and auto notify if needed.

Music apps. Much better on WebOS since you can continue to listen while using other apps. WebOS wins.



I think you get the idea. Sure, the iPhone might provide better animations or bubbly effects, but when you get down to it, the functionality that WebOS offers is MUCH better than Apple's SDK. So I stand by my statement that, other than games, WebOS provides a better platform for almost every other genre of apps.

 

[Rat-Boy]

Palm's SDK allows for access to a lot of areas that Apple's SDK keeps locked down. Sure, webOS is not a gaming platform, we know this. But it DOES accel over Apple's SDK by allowing integrated notification support, access to calendar and other crucial data stores, and the ability to run in the background.

What is Apple keeping away from Developers? You have proof that all these SDK packages are kept from developers?

Are we talking 3.0, or the current software?

What about the tons of new SDK's that are coming with 3.0? Do you have the full list of every single SDK that they have released?

Me thinks you don't.

Take an IM app. With system wide notifications and background support, WebOS wins by a landslide.

So says you.

I think having a server handle the notifications instead of my battery and RAM being eaten up by the program is a better option for IM programs.

It will work virtually the same from an end user perspective.

The IM will notify you if you sign in on the phone.

This is not a win for WebOS IMHO.

Take a movie showtime app. After buying tickets, WebOS allows you to add your movie directly into your personal calendar with a notification. WebOS wins.

Doesn't the iPhone's calendar also handle invites? How do we know an app can't currently, or in 3.0, be programmed to send this magical email?

Take GPS app. With the ability to run in the background, you can sense when the user enters into any area and provide contextual notifications, or really, do anything you want (maybe turn the phone on silent, turn off mail, etc). WebOS wins.

Again, the Apple SDK doesn't require an app to be running in the background for it to notify you of something.

Again, WebOS doesn't win.

Task, Calendar, GTD, etc apps. With the ability to enter in events into your personal calendar, provide notifications, and run in the background, WebOS wins by a landslide again. With the iPhone, task management apps suck, because you HAVE to actual load up the app to get anything useful out of it. With WebOS, you can have stuff auto sync and auto notify if needed.

All this changes with 3.0 and the notification system being implemented.

Music apps. Much better on WebOS since you can continue to listen while using other apps. WebOS wins.

Um..

I can run ANY app on my phone while listening to music. I have yet to find one that won't run while I listen to my iPod.

I think you get the idea. Sure, the iPhone might provide better animations or bubbly effects, but when you get down to it, the functionality that WebOS offers is MUCH better than Apple's SDK. So I stand by my statement that, other than games, WebOS provides a better platform for almost every other genre of apps.

Yea.

I get the idea.

You are pretty clueless as to what the iPhone is currently capable of, let alone what it will be capable of when 3.0 comes out.

Pretty much, being able to run apps in the background is all the Pre can do that the iPhone can't.

Like I said.