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The Premier League Thread!
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We saw the Arsenal-Tottenham match at the pub before we went to our game including Wenger and Jol squaring up to one another. Sorry to report XIII, but most people there were of the opinion that Jol would have flattened Arsene if it had gone to fisticuffs. He doesn't look like the sort of guy you'd like to meet down a dark alley...XIII said:
It was an entertaining enough game for the neutral, though. I suppose that it's only fitting that the last North London derby at Highbury should be a fiery and controversial affair. Anyway, I'm sure Arsenal will do you proud in the Champions League Semi-Final next week.
XIII said:
To recap: Two Arsenal players collide with each other. Michael Carrick hesitates on the ball while the referee assesses the situation. The referee sees Gilberto get up almost immediately and adjudges that Eboue isn't injured, so indicates to Carrick that he can play on. Carrick passes to Davids who squares for Keane to score. Lehmann rushes out of his goal to attack Davids.
There's absolutely no precedent to indicate that Carrick should have ignored the referee and put the ball out of play. The referee was a few yards from the incident and the welfare of the players is his responsibility. Given that neither of the Arsenal players required treatment, he clearly made the right decision in allowing play to continue. You can't blame Spurs for looking to play the advantage when two of your players run into each other!
For Wenger to accuse the Spurs bench of being blind and Jol of being a liar is the height of hypocrisy from a man who hasn't seen a major incident that's benefited Arsenal in ten years of managing the club. When Jol said that he hadn't seen the incident in the post-match interview, I was half expecting a wry smile. Oh, and by the way, there was nothing wrong with the build-up to Henry's goal either, despite suggestions to the contrary.
Brize said:
Correct
AND, although not the FA CUP thread
"F*** OFF, Chelsea FC
You aint got no history
Fiveeuropean Cups and 18 Leagues
Now thats what we call history"
I didnt realise that all chelsea fans where mute... It sure seemed like it.
No class shown from moreen afterwards either.
No class
No history
**** fans
got to love that cheque book though.
Jaffa Cake said:Sorry to report XIII, but most people there were of the opinion that Jol would have flattened Arsene if it had gone to fisticuffs. He doesn't look like the sort of guy you'd like to meet down a dark alley...
Here's a quote from Jol afterwards; he seems to agree with you
A disappointing result, but it was good to see Henry come in have such an immediate impact. I'm really looking forward to the Villareal match next week.
Of course, if Arsenal win the Champions League then they'll qualify for next seasons competition even if Spurs beat them for fourth place in the league the rules have been clarified after last season's Liverpool/Everton issue. This obviously is going to be seen by some as unfair, so here's a better idea Arsene Wenger and Martin Jol in one-on-one combat, for a place in next year's tournament!gauchogolfer said:
Two men enter, one team qualifies!
Brize said:
When did the referee signal that it was OK to continue, firstly? I must have missed that. Also, we are talking about sportsmanship here. The referee, in the rules of the game, doesn't have to stop play unless he judges someone to be in danger. However, it is common courtesy to kick the ball out when a member of the opposing team is injured - in whatever fashion. That one of the two got up does not indicate that they are both OK. I am 100% certain that Arsenal would have kicked the ball out then - maybe more fool us, as we wouldn't have scored, but we would have. Evidence of this is in the Villarreal game. They were constantly going down, and I'm sure many of the Arsenal players thought/knew they were diving. But sportmanship was still present, and we kicked the ball out accordingly. Maybe it was because it was against Arsenal that Tottenham didn't.. I don't know. Whatever it was - it was in the rules of the game, but very unsporting, which is infuriating.
Brize said:
Eboue did require treatment. Where are you getting this from?
Brize said:
Its hypocritical, yes, as that is Arsene's favourite line. In this case, the incident happened not more than 10 yards from Jol.. Everyone knows he saw it. Stupid of Wenger to have an outburst like that, but hey. We all know he's right, if hypocritical.
Look at the replays for Henry's goal. The guy stumbles as much as he is tripped. Ade is just trying to win the ball. It could have been given as a foul, yes, but it would have been a weak one. Small incidents like that happen before goals every week. Big, unsporting behavior leading to goals doesn't.
OVERALL EDIT: I make no attempt to hide my bias, of course.
I've just seen the incident replayed on Match of the Day I've got to say, as a neutral, I don't think there was anything wrong with the build-up to the Spurs goal. The referee checked the downed players, and signaled to Carrick (who had actually paused to see if the referee was going to stop play) that there was no need to put the ball out to allow the Arsenal players to receive treatment. The official was clearly satisfied that play should continue, so that's exactly what happened.
Granted, there is a courtesy to kick the ball into touch if a player is injured and requires urgent treatment, but in every game you see players taking knocks and being checked by the referee as play continues, with no stoppages. If one is required, the referee will indicate the ball should be put out of play, and if it's a serious injury he can stop play immediately. Spurs received no instruction from the referee to stop play, so Arsenal can have no complaints I'm afraid.
Granted, there is a courtesy to kick the ball into touch if a player is injured and requires urgent treatment, but in every game you see players taking knocks and being checked by the referee as play continues, with no stoppages. If one is required, the referee will indicate the ball should be put out of play, and if it's a serious injury he can stop play immediately. Spurs received no instruction from the referee to stop play, so Arsenal can have no complaints I'm afraid.
Well, Match of the Day is still on and the Bolton-Charlton game is on at the moment. Bolton have just netted their fourth, and after each one a jaunty tune comes over the PA (either I Feel Good or Amerillo). Is there any chance at all of us outlawing the playing of music after a goal is scored, please? It's just embarrassing, frankly.
Jack: If you have a look at a replay of the incident, you'll clearly see Carrick shape up to pass the ball and then hesitate briefly when he realises that the Arsenal players are down. The referee stoops to check that Eboue isn't seriously injured - Gilberto's already getting up by this point - and makes eye contact with Carrick, who then looks up and releases the ball to Davids.
The courtesy of putting the ball out of play was introduced as a means by which to ensure that players got prompt treatment for head injuries, broken bones, fractures, etc., especially when play had moved on and the referee was unaware of the injured player. If the referee is near to the incident and indicates his satisfaction that the player isn't seriously injured, it's wholly appropriate to keep the ball in play.
As noted by the pundits on Match of the Day, you can clearly see Martin Jol looking down the left flank trying to keep Edgar Davids onside when the two Arsenal players are grounded. Arsene Wenger's accusation of lying against Martin Jol was not only hypocritical and petulant, but also demonstrably wrong. Wenger was clearly frustrated that his team were played off the park for most of the game and owes Jol an apology.
In respect of Henry's goal, I've already stated my opinion that there was nothing wrong with Adebayor's tackle on Stalteri.
The courtesy of putting the ball out of play was introduced as a means by which to ensure that players got prompt treatment for head injuries, broken bones, fractures, etc., especially when play had moved on and the referee was unaware of the injured player. If the referee is near to the incident and indicates his satisfaction that the player isn't seriously injured, it's wholly appropriate to keep the ball in play.
As noted by the pundits on Match of the Day, you can clearly see Martin Jol looking down the left flank trying to keep Edgar Davids onside when the two Arsenal players are grounded. Arsene Wenger's accusation of lying against Martin Jol was not only hypocritical and petulant, but also demonstrably wrong. Wenger was clearly frustrated that his team were played off the park for most of the game and owes Jol an apology.
In respect of Henry's goal, I've already stated my opinion that there was nothing wrong with Adebayor's tackle on Stalteri.
pknz said:
Yeah.
What he means it...
Oh ****!!!! they have cut our lead in hlf in just one season and they played nearly double the games we have!!!!
oh and jose you have only beaten us 3 more times than we have beaten you
and we won the two that mean something.EDIT: oh yeah. jose - i forgot. Chelsea have spent more in the last decade (well three seasons actually) than liverpool have in their entire 114 year history - which is a funny stat because we have won more trophies this season than chelsea have in their 100 year history.
Classless
XIII said:It has been found that Jol said "Play, play, play!" actually.
yeah... not play on.
the people on that show all agreed that it should be allowed, i watched it myself this morning. The play was fine.
just shut up dave (
)BakedBeans said:yeah... not play on.
the people on that show all agreed that it should be allowed, i watched it myself this morning. The play was fine.
just shut up dave (
Legal but unsporting, and I stand by that.
Overall they deserved their point though.. just annoying how it happened.
So.. yeah...
XIII said:Legal but unsporting, and I stand by that.
Overall they deserved their point though.. just annoying how it happened.
So.. yeah...
I'm not sure Arsenal even deserved a point to be honest. Spurs where vastly better on the day (first 65 minutes at least)
XIII said:It has been found that Jol said "Play, play, play!" actually.
That's pure speculation, and I don't believe a word of it. If you have a look at the replay, you'll see that Jol was ahead of play and bellowing down the touchline at Edgar Davids. If, as you suggest, Jol was urging the team to play on, he would surely have been shouting at the man on the ball.
The notion that Arsenal are gentlemen defenders of the beautiful game is absolutely laughable. Think back to Old Trafford when your players bought genuine disgrace to the game; think of the diving, the disciplinary problems, and the sheer number of controversial incidents involving Arsenal players that Wenger claims not to have seen. Even yesterday, Lehmann attacked Davids after the goal was scored and Fabregas later helped Davids off the pitch with a contemptuous push.
The obvious response to Arsenal's whinging is to make the suggestion that Eboue himself was cheating by staying down. Neither he nor Gilberto were injured - both played the rest of the game - and given that he appeared to get up and then go down again, it's entirely plausible that he was trying to gain an unfair advantage. As a general note, how many times during the game did the referee have to ask Arsenal players to get off the floor?
You seem to have a broad notion of sportsmanship that fails to take specific circumstances into account. You have to question whether, in the absence of a serious injury, it's Spurs' responsibility to put the ball out of play when two opposition players run into each other; you have to acknowledge that the referee had already established that neither Arsenal player was hurt, and you have to ask whether Carrick should have ignored the referee and spurned a legitimate attacking opportunity in the midst of a competitive game. None of the examples that you provide even remotely resemble this set of circumstances.
For a more balanced appraisal of the incident, take a look at the Soccernet report:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=365637&root=england&cc=5739
Brize said:
It was shown fairly definitively on Goals on Sunday.
Brize said:
The Old Trafford incident was a long time ago in football. Three key offenders in that case, who were punished: Lauren, Keown, and Parlour. All don't play for Arsenal anymore, or have very serious injuries (Lauren). Today's Arsenal would have put the ball out.
Brize said:
I have no idea. Eboue, afaik, is not a dirty player, and has never dived to gain an unfair advantage before, when I have watched him. He is very genuine, and wouldn't do that, IMO. Some people in our team (Reyes, Pires) would, but not Eboue, IMO. He would want to be back there defending. He never looked up to see where the ball was, and whether he should stay down afaik, he was down all the time, head down.
Brize said:
The referee is only ALLOWED to stop play if a) the player is injured through a foul, or b) the player has an obvious (bloody) or head injury. That is why the kicking the ball out rule is there - because the referee's can't stop the game for it.. it is down the the opposing player to show good sportsmanship. Now, Carrick claims that if he saw Eboue wasn't getting up, he of course would have played the ball out. Surely that puts the argument that you shouldn't put the ball out in that situation to bed, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
BakedBeans said:
Yeah. Until we brought on the players who are world class (Eboue, Henry, Fabregas). They only scored after we brought those players on down to unsporting play (IMO), and didn't create a serious chance after the addition of those 3, other than their "goal".
So yes, we were lucky not to be behind in the 65 mins, but that was their own fault - poor finishing.
XIII said:
No, he wasn't. Have another look at the replay and you'll see Eboue raise himself off the floor before going back down again. I wasn't suggesting that Eboue dived, just that he stayed down to gain an advantage because he realised that he'd been caught out of position. Interesting to note your admission that two of your players would likely have cheated in those circumstances.
XIII said:
Exactly, Carrick saw Eboue start to get up. The only reason players usually knock the ball into touch is because they're unsure as to whether a grounded player is injured. In this case, the referee indicated to Carrick that Eboue was okay and further indicated that he should play on. This left Carrick with no reason to put the ball out of play.
The reaction of the Arsenal players and fans to this incident has been fairly predictable. It's telling that the majority of pundits and neutral fans seem to side with Spurs. Compare Arsene Wenger's response yesterday to Martin Jol's last season when Roy Carroll scooped the ball out of the net at Old Trafford in the last minute. He refused to criticise Carroll, acknowledged that the linesman and referee had a difficult job, and reasoned that such incidents even themselves out over the course of a season. Wenger might be a brilliant manager, but he really lost the plot yesterday.
XIII said:
Since when the feck is eboue and fabregas world class btw!!! Henry is the definition of world class - the other two are good.
It been fairly well gone over by just about every pundit, player, ref, ex ref, ex player and accepted that the play was fair. I fullllllly understand why you are pissed about this, your support makes you instantly on Arsenals side.
the truth is, they bettered you for 65 minutes, doesnt matter if the was poor play or (in this case) poor management, they were still the better side.
You now just have to hope that Wenger's little gamble pays off and you win the champions league r that spurs b0rk the rest of the games.
XIII said:
Today's Arsenal also try to gain an unfair advantage by pretending to be injured. Check out this clip from just a couple of months ago:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DMDPgcJmTCI
i agree that there was nothing wrong with the Spurs goal. and from what i saw, Eboue looked up and then started to fall down again. not very sportsman like if you ask me. besides, Arsenal should still play to the whistle.
oh, and as a Liverpool fan, i want to say how pathetic i think Mourinho is. oh, and Terry's tackle that led to the Riise goal, nothing wrong with that either, Liverpool were lucky to get the free kick. but, at the end of the day, some calls like that go your way, some don't. if you (no one in particular btw) can't accept that, then that makes you pretty sad
Chelski are whiners, sad and pathetic whiners who don't know how to lose graciously and accept defeat. THAT, is unsportsmanlike, and is why Chelski are hated as a team, NOT because we're all jealous of your two titles (I mean come on, really)...
oh, and as a Liverpool fan, i want to say how pathetic i think Mourinho is. oh, and Terry's tackle that led to the Riise goal, nothing wrong with that either, Liverpool were lucky to get the free kick. but, at the end of the day, some calls like that go your way, some don't. if you (no one in particular btw) can't accept that, then that makes you pretty sad
Chelski are whiners, sad and pathetic whiners who don't know how to lose graciously and accept defeat. THAT, is unsportsmanlike, and is why Chelski are hated as a team, NOT because we're all jealous of your two titles (I mean come on, really)...
Tottenham/Arsenal, I'm really nervous.
I'm wanting Arsenal to be able to get fourth spot. But it's all in the hands of Tottenham if they win both their next games it's kaput for the Arse, unless they do a Liverpool.
Assuming Arsenal can win their last three games then a draw for Tottenham in one of their last two games will see Arsenal through. I'm encouraged that they are playing Bolton, who will really want to win to get their UEAFA cup place and West Ham who are obviously on a roll although their UEAFA cup place is now assured.
It's too nervewracking.
I'm wanting Arsenal to be able to get fourth spot. But it's all in the hands of Tottenham if they win both their next games it's kaput for the Arse, unless they do a Liverpool.
Assuming Arsenal can win their last three games then a draw for Tottenham in one of their last two games will see Arsenal through. I'm encouraged that they are playing Bolton, who will really want to win to get their UEAFA cup place and West Ham who are obviously on a roll although their UEAFA cup place is now assured.
It's too nervewracking.
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