The Talk Show Live From WWDC 2023 Now Available on YouTube

[Jensend]

The Vision Pro uses foveated rendering, meaning that the pixel density is not uniform, and instead is higher in the central foveal area than in the periphery, matching the eye’s visual acuity. In this paper, 24 PPD were achieved at the center using a 1440 pixel display with a pancake lens. This would translate to 67 PPD for a 4000 pixel panel, matching Apple’s definition of a Retina display (57 PPD and up) as well as the conventional definition of 20/20 vision (60 PPD).

Foveated rendering means rendering the image at a higher resolution where the eye is focused, and is not about the physical or visual positions of the hardware pixels. 4000 pixels across isn’t enough to cover the whole directly-visible FOV with Retina resolution.

The only other factor I could think of that would make 4000 VR pixels better than 4000 monitor pixels is that your head will always be subtly moving so there could be a temporal element where your brain is fusing together multiple frames together to infer a higher resolution.

 

[LibertySound]

Gruber is getting less and less likeable every year unfortunately.

Constantly calling out Mark Gurman even though he turns out be completely wrong, dumb Twitter takes, etc...

Mark Gurman Recaps His Reporting on Apple’s Upcoming XR Headset and He’s Sticking With the Front-Facing Display for Googly Eyes

Link to: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-05-18/apple-s-mixed-reality-headset-may-define-tim-cook-s-legacy

daringfireball.net

I’ll trust John over Mark and I’d much rather have his opinion.

 

[klasma]

Foveated rendering means rendering the image at a higher resolution where the eye is focused, and is not about the physical or visual positions of the hardware pixels. 4000 pixels across isn’t enough to cover the whole directly-visible FOV with Retina resolution.

The only other factor I could think of that would make 4000 VR pixels better than 4000 monitor pixels is that your head will always be subtly moving so there could be a temporal element where your brain is fusing together multiple frames together to infer a higher resolution.

In the paper I linked, the pancake optics distort the physical pixels so that they appear significantly denser in the center (by a factor of five or so, if I’m reading it correctly). I'm assuming that Apple is doing something similar. You are right that foveated rendering is in principle independent from that.

 

[jimbobb24]

“Discern pixels” is quite an imprecise phrase. I can watch a DVD on my 4K TV, and I may not know where one image pixel ends and the next begins, but the image sure isn’t as sharp and detailed as a 4K movie on the same display. Either this device has a PPD that meets or exceeds other Retina-level devices at a typical viewing distance, or it doesn’t. Simple math shows that it is much closer to the density of pre-Retina Apple displays.

If a 4K wide display were enough to cover a ~100° FOV, there would be no point in Apple selling 5K and 6K monitors.

It’s a marketing term. Of course it’s imprecise.

 

[kirbyrun]

People are really mean to John Gruber, and I’m not exactly sure why he inspires such rage

I think a big part of it is that he is in an enviable position and many Apple fans resent that he doesn't use/exploit that position to the ends they would prefer.

As for me, I used to be a big fan, but in recent years, I've realized that I have two main issues with him that make it difficult to continue being so:

1) From the outside, he just seems incredibly lazy. There is ALWAYS something to say about Apple, but sometimes entire weeks go by with him only posting one or two linked items to his blog (with his trademark single sentence of snark). If I were an advertiser, I'd be disappointed. He should have at least one decent-sized post of original content per week -- again, it's Apple! There's always something to say! One ongoing refrain on his podcast is that he is "working on" a "big piece" about some issue or another, but they rarely materialize.

2) The racial and gender balance of his podcast is deplorable. He has a rarified position in the Apple ecosphere, yet he consistently has on the same white dudes. His record with people of color and women on the podcast is just shameful. There are brilliant people in this field who aren't white or men, but you wouldn't know that by listening to The Talk Show.

All that said, when he's on, he's REALLY on. When he's making the effort, he brings a clarity and depth of understanding that few others can. I just wish that happened more often.

 

[jonblatho]

Bertrand Serlet (THE Godfather of Graphical User Interface in terms of Apple - Worked at Xerox PARC, then NeXT, then Apple)! He brought the science know-how of the UNIX kernel of Mac OS X, then making it FREE for upgrade, etc etc).

I’m genuinely not sure what you’re referring to here.

 

[AppleInLVX]

Love these interviews, but John Gruber always seems noticeably more uncomfortable on stage compared to the Apple execs.

Right? I bet this whole thing would have been 10 minutes shorter if they’d edited out all the long silences where Gruber’s formulating his thoughts. He’s not a particularly good interviewer, and I don’t think he strayed from the script once. It’s such a good opportunity and I feel like it’s wasted every year. No, I couldn’t personally do better, but then that isn’t my job.

 

[thadoggfather]

A few years back on one of his podcast episodes he was interviewing Rene Ritchie and it was so obvious he was drunk. Rene is a pro though and made it work. I doubt Gruber was drunk here but he did seem really nervous and there were some really long, uncomfortable pauses between questions.

That sounds downright entertaining lol
Got a link?

 

[citysnaps]

So much pointless hate in this thread.

Gruber has lines to stay within, or the execs will shut down as clams. He may - and does - ask some uncomfortable questions but he doesn’t push it like a digging reporter might; he only makes it obvious that there are community questions, and in turn makes it impossible for Apple leadership to claim they haven’t heard. The execs are coached in giving non-answers to questions they don’t want to speak about. Nobody should expect big reveals of the future roadmap of Apple from this - or any - event.

The guy is nervous - he doesn’t do stage stuff nearly enough to be used to it. I can’t blame him for that.

Well said!

Some of the comments are really juvenile. It's all about attacking the host rather than having thoughtful comments about the tech that was discussed by the guests.

I thought Rockwell was great and his discussion about the underlying tech in Vision Pro, and the problems that were solved via that tech, was astonishing. I came away even more blown away by Vision Pro.

 

[TheLunaPark]

You’re right that it all started going downhill after Serlet left, but the rest of your post is full of half truths.

It was Federighi who took over from Serlet starting with 10.7 Lion, not Forstall. Forstall was SVP of iPhone software at the time and left a year later.

View attachment 2216405View attachment 2216406

Bertrand Serlet, often called ‘the father of Mac OS X,’ is leaving Apple


Yes, Apple did go overboard with skeuomorphism starting with Lion, but it was more of Jobs’s idea to bring back iPhone UI elements to OS X.

Federighi along with Apple marketing moved on to a yearly release cycle shortly after. Stability of core OS went to **** overtime and all he cared about was adding bloatware apps, half baked features and emojis. Still, macOS retained some of the classic UI elements and functionality up until Catalina and that’s when Alan Dye came in and burned it all with Big Turd.

Not sure what you mean by Dye correcting Ive’s mistakes and “bringing back classic Mac OS design elements”. Dye is basically responsibly for destroying all the usability and depth that existed in the classic MacOS design and making everything thin, white and flat.

Big Turd hahaha. Love that.

 

[smulji]

I thought Rockwell was great and his discussion about the underlying tech in Vision Pro, and the problems that were solved via that tech, was astonishing. I'm came away even more blown away by Vision Pro.

Rockwell was great but definitely no credit to Gruber though

 

[smulji]

Oh bull. It started way before then. Once Bertrand Serlet retired, the dumbification began.

It became a skeuomorphic nightmare with feature bloat and half baked features with Scott Forstall. 10.7 Lion, anyone? Then Ive did a complete 180 degrees with 10.10 Yosemite and sucked all the usability out of the OS.

Federighi came in and united the underlying technologies across platforms and Dye tried to correct Ive’s mistakes by bringing back some classic Mac OS design elements.

However, it was too late. iPhone and iOS had already become the behemoth and lead operating system that all Apple operating systems would take cues from. And now we are here and things like System Settings are the new normal.

We are lucky with still have Finder, as stripped down its default settings are.

I remember this tweet from late last year. Take it for it's worth but he does have a decent track record. Could explain why we're witnessing a lot of iOS UI elements coming to macOS.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583065617950613504

 

[citysnaps]

Rockwell was great but definitely no credit to Gruber though

I came to listen to Rockwell and how Vision Pro came to being. How Gruber performs is of no consequence to me.

As opposed to many here who have nothing to say at all about what Rockwell revealed, and could only make inane comments about Gruber.

 

[kirbyrun]

I came to listen to Rockwell and how Vision Pro came to being. How Gruber performs is of no consequence to me

This is a fair comment/perspective, but consider that if Gruber were a better interviewer, you’d get to hear more from Rockwell.

 

[wanha]

Gruber is getting less and less likeable every year unfortunately.

Constantly calling out Mark Gurman even though he turns out be completely wrong, dumb Twitter takes, etc...

Mark Gurman Recaps His Reporting on Apple’s Upcoming XR Headset and He’s Sticking With the Front-Facing Display for Googly Eyes

Link to: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-05-18/apple-s-mixed-reality-headset-may-define-tim-cook-s-legacy

daringfireball.net

Gruber clearly got that take wrong, but I don't feel it was an unreasonable take if we consider that he didn't know then what he and we know now.

No one is ever going to be 100% right on this stuff, but I feel his takes are well-thought out and genuine even if they aren't always right.

 

[wanha]

Funny thing is he wasn’t technically wrong. Having a screen outside with eyes does look goofy and it costs extra and has a hit on battery life like he said, but he can’t make Apple look wrong so he will probably change his take about the whole thing.

That seems like a nefarious assumption on his motivations. Do you really think he wouldn't change his opinion simply because he saw the rationale and value of the outward screen after having experienced the device first hand and understood the purpose behind the design?

 

[Rogifan]

Yes, on an airplane.

No. Vision Pro is just a toy for rich people and techies who are bored. This is the first Apple product where it’s just cool tech for the sake of it.

 

[Rogifan]

Oh bull. It started way before then. Once Bertrand Serlet retired, the dumbification began.

It became a skeuomorphic nightmare with feature bloat and half baked features with Scott Forstall. 10.7 Lion, anyone? Then Ive did a complete 180 degrees with 10.10 Yosemite and sucked all the usability out of the OS.

Federighi came in and united the underlying technologies across platforms and Dye tried to correct Ive’s mistakes by bringing back some classic Mac OS design elements.

However, it was too late. iPhone and iOS had already become the behemoth and lead operating system that all Apple operating systems would take cues from. And now we are here and things like System Settings are the new normal.

We are lucky with still have Finder, as stripped down its default settings are.

I highly doubt Jony Ive spent one minute on Mac OS UI design. It seemed like he was semi-retired by then spending all his time on Apple Park.

 

[Rogifan]

That sounds downright entertaining lol
Got a link?

I think it was this one. https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/2019/12/31/ep-273

 

[tripsync]

Gruber clearly got that take wrong, but I don't feel it was an unreasonable take if we consider that he didn't know then what he and we know now.

No one is ever going to be 100% right on this stuff, but I feel his takes are well-thought out and genuine even if they aren't always right.

Gruber seems to have a personal vendetta against Gurman based on previous attacks. He would have believed Gurman had it not been for his emotions getting in the way.

 

[Naraxus]

It’s all gone to his head … honestly thinks his opinions for some reason should have any/more weight to them vs anyone else.

Had to unsub to everything involving him a few years ago now.

He is a wonderful tool for Apple PR to use however … and boy oh boy do they use it.

His political ravings are what hammered in the final nail for me. Like I come to you for tech stuff, not the bs I get on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC etc.

 

[tripsync]

I’ll trust John over Mark and I’d much rather have his opinion.

John has has refuted a few of Mark's rumors and Mark seems to have gotten them right. I trust Mark over John.

 

[turbineseaplane]

His political ravings are what hammered in the final nail for me. Like I come to you for tech stuff, not the bs I get on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC etc.

Since I've unfollowed him all over, I wasn't even aware of this angle

That would also have turned me off .. no matter what political angle he's coming from, that's just not what I want or need to hear "everywhere" -- especially when just wanting to hear about tech & Apple, etc

 

[jaw04005]

I highly doubt Jony Ive spent one minute on Mac OS UI design. It seemed like he was semi-retired by then spending all his time on Apple Park.

In 2012, he got Forstall fired and took over the HI (Human Interfaces) group specifically to redesign iOS and Mac OS. He absolutely spent time working on both operating system designs and approved much of the flatter interface.

 

[Naraxus]

Since I've unfollowed him all over, I wasn't even aware of this angle

That would also have turned me off .. no matter what political angle he's coming from, that's just not what I want or need to hear "everywhere" -- especially when just wanting to hear about tech & Apple, etc

I don't care what a person's politcal leanings are but let's just say that Gruber put the derangement in Trump Derangement Syndrome