'This American Life' Retracts Show on Foxconn Working Conditions over Fabricated Claims

[FloatingBones]

24 hours later, SumOfUs.org is still silent

The NGO SumOfUs.org has still failed to respond to TAL's retraction of the Daisey story. I made a comment on the org's FB wall, but no response from them or anyone else.

If some org wants to turn up the heat on a company, they shouldn't hide when that focus is (correctly!) shifted to them.

I hope Apples legal dept look at this. Sue his ass off.

I wouldn't mind if somebody sued him -- perhaps attendees of his "Agony and Ectasy" play should demand that Daisey refund their money. I don't think that Apple needs to be involved.

Also, I can't help but wonder if Daisey or anyone else tried to short Apple stock just before this story broke.

 

[IJ Reilly]

But, you seem to not understand that he is pretending it is journalism. Daisey is doing this, not the posters on MR. Seems to be confusing some people. Some even still think the WWE isn't theater.

No, he is not. In fact he has said just the opposite, and long before you had even heard of Mike Dasiey or TAL he was performing this piece on a stage in a theater. Some seem to believe that theater is now immoral, if not illegal. How scary is that?

 

[FloatingBones]

No, he is not. In fact he has said just the opposite, and long before you had even heard of Mike Dasiey or TAL he was performing this piece on a stage in a theater. Some seem to believe that theater is now immoral, if not illegal. How scary is that?

The problem is that TAL is not performance art. Anyone who listened to the original story knows that it was a hard journalism piece. From the transcript of this weekend's show:

I can say now in retrospect that when Mike Daisey wouldn't give us contact information for his interpreter we should've killed the story rather than run it. we never should've broadcast this story without talking to that woman.

Instead, we trusted his word. Although he's not a journalist, we made clear to him that anything he was going to say on our show would have to live up to journalistic standards. He had to be truthful. And he lied to us.

Anyone who wants to debate about how Daisey breached his trust with TAL (and the public) should read the transcript of this week's show first. Thank you.

 

[nylonsteel]

re original article

mike daisey = the next michael moore over weight wannabe

ira glass = faux gay

rob schmitz = a real journalist (he is the one who investigated the lies)

 

[oliversl]

Liar and opportunistic ... pathetic!

 

[eawmp1]

ira glass = faux gay guy

Way to bring in the irrelevant. Don't anger lee.

 

[blipper]

[/COLOR]

I think Apple and Foxconn should sue this guy and This American Life for all they're worth.

They don't want to do that unless they really want to open the books up on everything they're doing in China. Daisey might have been a liar but that doesn't mean Apple and Foxconn would benefit from a lot of exposure in this area.

 

[jackc]

No, he is not. In fact he has said just the opposite, and long before you had even heard of Mike Dasiey or TAL he was performing this piece on a stage in a theater. Some seem to believe that theater is now immoral, if not illegal. How scary is that?

Give me a break, no one is saying that.

The guy was passing off his stories as true. Maybe people should have assumed he was making stuff up in his "show" but that's not the impression he gave.

 

[FloatingBones]

publictheater.org's CYA statement about the Daisey's behavior

One of the more interesting questions is how the theaters where Daisey's show is playing will disclaim it. Here's what publictheater.org says for the current run:

In the theater, our job is to create fictions that reveal truth-- that's what a storyteller does, that's what a dramatist does. THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY OF STEVE JOBS reveals, as Mike's other monologues have, human truths in story form.

In this work, Mike uses a story to frame and lead debate about an important issue in a deeply compelling way. He has illuminated how our actions affect people half-a-world away and, in doing so, has spurred action to address a troubling situation. This is a powerful work of art and exactly the kind of storytelling that The Public Theater has supported, and will continue to support in the future.

Mike is an artist, not a journalist. Nevertheless, we wish he had been more precise with us and our audiences about what was and wasn’t his personal experience in the piece.

I wonder if they're giving any refunds.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The problem is that TAL is not performance art. Anyone who listened to the original story knows that it was a hard journalism piece. From the transcript of this weekend's show:

But it is. I get the feeling that virtually everyone here is discovering TAL for the first time. Not me. I've been listening to it for many years, so I know that the vast majority of what they broadcast is storytelling, not journalism. As I've been saying, that is why seeing them recoiling in horror over this particular piece makes the producers look so wimpy and comical.

Give me a break, no one is saying that.

The guy was passing off his stories as true. Maybe people should have assumed he was making stuff up in his "show" but that's not the impression he gave.

But they are. Plenty of comments here are about how Apple should sue Mike Daisey, and maybe he's guilty of stock manipulation. You won't have to read back far to find them, and you can probably find these comments on every page. So give me a break and don't make me quote them back.

Anyhow, take a few minutes to watch the PBS NewsHour interview with Daisey from last year. You are certainly privileged to not like what he's doing (I don't particularly care for it myself), but once you take the time to understand it, I think you'll see that the outrage we're hearing now is off-base. It's theater, people. The stage and the audience should have been your first clue.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/art/blo...e-dishonesty-of-mike-daiseys-apple-story.html

 

[MacinDoc]

No, he is not. In fact he has said just the opposite, and long before you had even heard of Mike Dasiey or TAL he was performing this piece on a stage in a theater. Some seem to believe that theater is now immoral, if not illegal. How scary is that?

Nothing wrong with the original fiction, as long as it was clearly presented as such. What's immoral is taking that piece of fiction and subsequently passing it off as fact in his dealings with TAL. This action is not only immoral, but has the potential to materially harm Apple by damaging its reputation, which can have the further effect of essentially stealing from Apple's shareholders by artificially manipulating the price of Apple's stock. And in case you have forgotten, libel is not only a tort in most jurisdictions, but in many jurisdictions is considered a criminal offense.

Of course, TAL may have been lying when it claimed that Daisey originally told them that the story was completely factual.

Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around here: Daisey for passing off his fiction to TAL as fact, TAL for not doing its fact checking properly, the rest of the media for climbing on the bandwagon without doing the proper fact checking, SumOfUs for continuing its anti-Apple campaign in spite of knowing that it's based on fabricated claims, Apple for doing inadequate audits of its manufacturing partners' facilities (although, to be fair, it appears likely that the working conditions are better than in most Chinese factories), and the People's Republic of China for having inadequate laws to protect its workers (ironic in a "worker's paradise", don't you think?)

 

[jackc]

Anyhow, take a few minutes to watch the PBS NewsHour interview with Daisey from last year. You are certainly privileged to not like what he's doing (I don't particularly care for it myself), but once you take the time to understand it, I think you'll see that the outrage we're hearing now is off-base. It's theater, people. The stage and the audience should have been your first clue.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/art/blo...e-dishonesty-of-mike-daiseys-apple-story.html

That clip only makes the point. Obviously he wanted to give the impression of being a serious activist and describing things that he saw. He is reluctant to admit (although he essentially did), "this is an issue I care about, so I'm going to tell fictional stories that try to make other people care about it." He shouldn't be prosecuted, he should just admit flat-out he's a liar.

 

[SBlue1]

editor: "your report seems to have some small issues with the truth."

daisey: "uhm, well, it's a novel then."

 

[FloatingBones]

But it is.

You are incorrect. TAL intended this as a hard journalism piece. They had Daisey's story, then they went through an segment of the show where they fact-checked it. That is the behavior you would expect form a hard journalism piece. It is NOT the behavior you would expect from a storytelling piece.

I get the feeling that virtually everyone here is discovering TAL for the first time.

With all due respect, what you feel doesn't matter a whit in this conversation. It is wrong: I have been listening to the show for many years.

I've been listening to it for many years, so I know that the vast majority of what they broadcast is storytelling, not journalism.

Therefore ... what? The fact that TAL does mostly storytelling does not -- should not -- disqualify them from making an occasional hard journalism piece.

You seem to think that listening to the show for years somehow makes your opinion trump everyone else's here. It does not.

As I've been saying, that is why seeing them recoiling in horror over this particular piece makes the producers look so wimpy and comical.

They are recoiling because Mike Daisey blatently lied to them. He lied about facts of the story. He deliberately gave them the wrong name for his translator so they wouldn't be able to find her. If you had read the transcript of this week's episode -- as I suggested -- you would know these things.

Please. Read. The. Transcript.

but once you take the time to understand it, I think you'll see that the outrage we're hearing now is off-base. It's theater, people. The stage and the audience should have been your first clue.

It's a lie, and people have a right to be outraged. Note the disclaimer that publictheater.org is putting up about the Daisey play:

In the theater, our job is to create fictions that reveal truth-- that's what a storyteller does, that's what a dramatist does. THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY OF STEVE JOBS reveals, as Mike's other monologues have, human truths in story form.

In this work, Mike uses a story to frame and lead debate about an important issue in a deeply compelling way. He has illuminated how our actions affect people half-a-world away and, in doing so, has spurred action to address a troubling situation. This is a powerful work of art and exactly the kind of storytelling that The Public Theater has supported, and will continue to support in the future.

Mike is an artist, not a journalist. Nevertheless, we wish he had been more precise with us and our audiences about what was and wasn’t his personal experience in the piece.

That's a theater -- a place with a stage and an audience -- saying that what Mike Daisey's show reeks of half-truths. I've never seen a disclaimer like that before on anything I've seen in the theater. Have you?

I wouldn't be surprised if Daisey's play starts getting cancelled.

 

[gnasher729]

Also, I can't help but wonder if Daisey or anyone else tried to short Apple stock just before this story broke.

If they did, then they lost a lot of money. And it would pose an interesting question: Should the SEC prosecute for insider trading when the insider loses money? (Daisey and "This American Life" would count as "insiders" before the show was aired).

 

[IJ Reilly]

Nothing wrong with the original fiction, as long as it was clearly presented as such. What's immoral is taking that piece of fiction and subsequently passing it off as fact in his dealings with TAL. This action is not only immoral, but has the potential to materially harm Apple by damaging its reputation, which can have the further effect of essentially stealing from Apple's shareholders by artificially manipulating the price of Apple's stock. And in case you have forgotten, libel is not only a tort in most jurisdictions, but in many jurisdictions is considered a criminal offense.

Of course, TAL may have been lying when it claimed that Daisey originally told them that the story was completely factual.

Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around here: Daisey for passing off his fiction to TAL as fact, TAL for not doing its fact checking properly, the rest of the media for climbing on the bandwagon without doing the proper fact checking, SumOfUs for continuing its anti-Apple campaign in spite of knowing that it's based on fabricated claims, Apple for doing inadequate audits of its manufacturing partners' facilities (although, to be fair, it appears likely that the working conditions are better than in most Chinese factories), and the People's Republic of China for having inadequate laws to protect its workers (ironic in a "worker's paradise", don't you think?)

I wouldn't call it a fiction. It's not like no Chinese factory employees were ever poisoned by n-Hexane. They were. Daisey riffed on it in a performance piece. So what? If you don't get that someone standing on a stage in front of audience is presenting theater, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Cheap. TAL was naive at a minimum, because they could not possibly not have known that they were broadcasting part of his stage performance. Their shock and disgust just doesn't cut it for me. Consider also how much free publicity the show is reaping now. Be honest -- how many of you had ever listened to TAL before this incident?

Your charges of "stock manipulation" are ludicrous. Next thing you know it will be illegal to express an opinion unless it's fully researched and documented. When that becomes the norm, many of the poster here will be in jail.

 

[SteveW928]

Effective tactic though... rhetoric rules

We live in an age where fact checking and real journalism seems to be a lost art. But, as this illustrates, it is effective. Whether it is due to just the speed of things in the media, or a deceptive rhetorical device, the masses typically fall for it. And, regarding the latter, people who produce "documentaries" and groups trying to influence the populace fully realize this... and use it as a tool.

This seems to be a great example, even if the cause was ultimately just. Certainly, we want to see conditions improved for workers in China. And since this is a just cause, facts be damned. (Of course, most people think their causes are just, even if they really aren't in the big picture.) News outlets often buy into this stuff (again, out of carelessness, or probably more often, profit) as it makes the news more interesting than the truth.

I run across this stuff all the time working in Christian apologetics. People hostile to Christianity watch the Da Vinci Code, the Zeitgeist movie on YouTube, a History Channel episode, or one of the many 101 Really Bad Atheist Arguments web sites and suddenly become instant experts on anything from the history of religion, the historical Jesus, or theology. It's really pretty amazing. The really "scholarly" ones pick up one of Bart Ehrman's popular works (which, incidentally, don't match his scholarly works... but who reads those?) and think they know all about the development of the Bible and textual criticism.

Point is folks, we need to start doing some of the hard work of actually fact checking and recognizing when we're being played by the rhetoric. It's the only way we're really going to get to the truth these days.

 

[IJ Reilly]

You are incorrect. TAL intended this as a hard journalism piece. They had Daisey's story, then they went through an segment of the show where they fact-checked it. That is the behavior you would expect form a hard journalism piece. It is NOT the behavior you would expect from a storytelling piece.

And that is precisely the problem. TAL is not journalism, never has been.

 

[FloatingBones]

They were. Daisey riffed on it in a performance piece. So what? If you don't get that someone standing on a stage in front of audience is presenting theater, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

The problem is that people took Daisey's so-called performance art is that the claims spread. After the TAL piece, the SumOfUs.org "ethical iPhone" petition prominently featured the n-hexane claim. You can see the whole story of that fabrication here. SumOfUs should have retracted their petition and started again; they did not.

Cheap. TAL was naive at a minimum, because they could not possibly not have known that they were broadcasting part of his stage performance.

You are another person who clearly did not read the transcript or listen to the show. Mike Daisey actively lied to the TAL reporters and producers. In their fact-checking cycle, they asked him questions point blank. He lied and deceived in his responses. He deliberately changed the name of his translator and provided no contact information so that TAL couldn't fact-check with her.

Their shock and disgust just doesn't cut it for me.

Rather than assume you know what happened, please. read. the. transcript. Then tell us what "doesn't cut it" from the actions that TAL did when originally researching this story.

Next thing you know it will be illegal to express an opinion unless it's fully researched and documented. When that becomes the norm, many of the poster here will be in jail.

If posters could be incarcerated for making ludicrous straw men, you would be on your way to the Leavenworth Penitentiary right now.

TAL Episode 454 was a hard-news episode of the show. Fact-checking was an integral component of both the show presentation AND the content of the show itself. Did you listen to that episode back in January?

And that is precisely the problem. TAL is not journalism, never has been.

Your claim is surreal. Anyone interested in seeing why: please download the transcript of Episode 454 recorded back in January and search down to

fact checked

in that transcript. JJ: storytellers don't typically make transcripts of their stories. They never go through fact-check cycles, or report on those fact-checking cycles as a part of the story. That would only be done in a hard news story.

If you have a counterexample, please provide a reference.

 

[IJ Reilly]

That clip only makes the point. Obviously he wanted to give the impression of being a serious activist and describing things that he saw. He is reluctant to admit (although he essentially did), "this is an issue I care about, so I'm going to tell fictional stories that try to make other people care about it." He shouldn't be prosecuted, he should just admit flat-out he's a liar.

A "serious activist" is not a journalist. In fact you could make a good argument that the two are exclusionary and contradictory. I would. It's a play performed on a stage. The concept of theater seems to be the part that eludes so many here.

 

[bjeadeh]

Apple... Winning. This American Life... Fail.

Ira, just say it isn't so.

 

[FloatingBones]

A "serious activist" is not a journalist.

But an investigation and report -- which included detailed fact-checking -- is indeed journalism. That's the distinction you don't seem to be getting in this discussion. Anybody who honestly checks TAL episode 454 from January of this year would call it journalism.

In fact you could make a good argument that the two are exclusionary and contradictory. I would. It's a play performed on a stage. The concept of theater seems to be the part that eludes so many here.

The brouhaha had nothing to do with Daisey's long-standing stage production. The problems started after TAL produced their investigative episode.

Daisey would probably have been fine if he had kept his act on the stage. When he lied to Ira Glass and his staff in the process of fact-checking episode 454, he crossed the line.

Ira, just say it isn't so.

Ira and his organization will come out of this just fine.

I don't think the same can be said for Mike Daisey. The blank pauses during the interviews with him for this week's show are just plain incredible.

 

[jackc]

A "serious activist" is not a journalist. In fact you could make a good argument that the two are exclusionary and contradictory. I would. It's a play performed on a stage. The concept of theater seems to be the part that eludes so many here.

Yes, his stories were fiction, that's fine. You are missing the point that he was obviously expecting to be taken seriously for his first-person accounts, even aside the fact that he lied to TAL and others about it.

 

[spanading]

He may be a liar but maybe there was a point

Before I go any further I just want to say that I am a big Apple fan and don't like being lied to any more than the next person. That being said having listened to the retraction made by the radio company I think that I need to have a think about not just Apple good but all electrical goods made in china or other areas of the world that don't have the same level of workers rights enjoyed by most western countries.

Of what was left that has been proven to be true (but maybe not witnessed by the 'reporter') I as a Christian and just a normal Joe am concerned about the following

1) A second explosion at a production plant with the same cause as one that Apple knew about months before. Further that the potential for this to happen was pointed out to Apple months before both of the explosions.

2) That workers are placed in a culture that encourages them to work long hours (for what ever reason even if it is their own request). In the EU at lease this is tightly regulated against on grounds of safety and productivity (depending on the job)

3) That workers are living in dormitories with little privacy and little room for themselves to ensure proper rest.

Now I know that these standard could be classed as typical for some the area of the world where the mass production plants are, but, even on a basic human level (as I do not want to get in to religion) it is just not fair. Do I love my apple iPhone, iPad, Mac Mini, iMac and all the peripherals that go with them, yes. Am I comfortable with knowing that people suffer to make them, or at least work in much harsher conditions that most people in the west, no. Do I think it is fine to sit back and say it OK all the companies do it, no.

I admit Apple has made a start and I know it will take time but if anyone from Apple reads these posts could I put a request for some minimum standards for the people making the products that I love please?

1) No one should work for more that 12 hours in one shift
2) People should have a break of at least 15 minutes (excluding the time it takes to get to a rest area) every 4 hours at the most.
3) Standards relating to safe work practices should be at the same standard they are in the west, even if this exceeds the local safety standards.
4) Employee accommodation should permit a maximum of 2 people per room (i.e. one at rest and one at work, but having enough room for each persons possessions) and each room should have their own toilet and washing facilities. I know that this may well be in excess of some of the cheeper hotel like accommodation but it is the minimum a western worker would expect and so why should it be different for people in a different country.
5) Violations of codes of conduit regarding safety and working conditions should be fully investigated and resolved, and repeated violation reports should be followed up by an inspection by a dedicated Apple team.
6) Some of the $60 Billion finical reserves are used to allow suppliers to achieve this quickly for employees working on Apple products.

In this way I think Apple could turn this area of weakness in to a strength just as they did when they looked in to the environmental problems they had a few years ago. I would love to see Apple get a standard for all employee conditions that matches what they have achieved for their environmental standards.

What do you think Apple. Is this different enough?

 

[Thunderbird]

I wouldn't call it a fiction. It's not like no Chinese factory employees were ever poisoned by n-Hexane. They were. Daisey riffed on it in a performance piece. So what? If you don't get that someone standing on a stage in front of audience is presenting theater, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Thank you for that. Fanbois are missing the whole point (as usual). Daisey fabricated his stories about what he claims to have observed on his trip to Shenzen. His anecdotes are lies, presented as true reportage. However, many of the facts about poor working conditions at Foxconn are true, just not Daisey's version of them. And an official Chinese government translator is probably the last person I would go to to verify anything observed with a foreigner at a Chinese factory.

Where Daisy differs slightly from Michael Moore is that Moore's lies are presented in a straightforward manner within the context of issue-driven documentaries. There is no claim or pretense to artistic license, and film audiences are not led to believe otherwise. Daisey's context, on the other hand, was (mostly) on stage in a theater within the genre of a one-man show. That doesn't excuse Daisey's falsehoods nor his repetition of those falsehoods during interviews. But it does alter the context somewhat, and audiences should be attuned to that context.