Thoughts on difficult family situation?

[5105973]

I did see a therapist last week, but he wasn't very good. I'm trying one more session with him this week, and if it doesn't get better, I will be looking for someone else.

Today was much better than yesterday, and she even wrote me an email this evening expressing her feelings about my parents, and prefaced it by saying that she feels it's important for her to share these feelings with me now that she feels like I will finally listen.

She wrote about how she feels that they've been trying to get in between us, threatening our marriage, insulting her the minute she stands in the way of them getting what they want, etc. I was in complete agreement with everything she wrote, and I told her that. I reassured her that we're on the same page and that I am establishing appropriate boundaries with my parents, and will be VERY harsh with them if they ever again say anything that seems to want to undermine our marriage.

When we were visiting them a couple weeks ago, at one point my mom said something like "I'm really worried about you. I don't know if this marriage can work out." In response I said something like "**** you, who the **** do you think you are? What the **** is the matter with you? Get the **** out of here," and she then apologized immediately and never said anything like that again. So I have already practiced the appropriate response to something like that, and I told my wife about that instance and assured her that I would be that harsh again with either of my parents if need be.

We do have a difference in feeling about matters like this in general, which came up in the course of this conversation, but did not cause a great deal of strife. She feels that if someone says something like "I don't know if this marriage can last" (especially if they were at the wedding and vowed to support the marriage), that it would make sense to just cut them out completely. I feel differently, and from what I've gathered from our surrounding community, I'm not alone. People have a sense of extended family, of making relationships work as best they can. They don't think of extended family as strangers, they don't just exile them from their life completely on the same grounds that they would a random stranger who showed up and behaved that way.

That's how I feel, that's what my orientation is like regarding in-laws, etc. I spoke to a woman at my church whose husband's parents pulled the same thing, telling him that maybe she's not right for him. She said that he put his foot down with them very strongly, but of course they're going to continue having relationship with them. So I told my wife that story as an example, and I think she understands that this is more a difference in attitude rather than evidence that I'm not loyal to her. What do you think? Am I right that generally people think of in-laws and extended family as an inevitable part of their lives, and simply try to manage it as best as possible?

Now you're basing what you should do about your marriage on what some lady at church does with her village idiots? Hush, now. Just hush.

Sorry to butt in here. I was drawn to this thread out of curiosity because I married a mama and daddy's boy, too. But that was after several years of dating him and waiting for him to get his act together. And in that time I forged my own relationship with his parents. Once we had a kid they became overbearing again and we had to struggle to find new footing and new equilibrium again. But they were by no means in any way, shape or form toxic people. Annoying and needy and clingy, yeah, but not anything to set off the major alarm bells your mom...and possibly dad??? do. The dynamic they had with their son and their other kids isn't always super healthy, but it was not going to have toxic effects on their grandchildren. I like them quite a lot and love them as my blood kin. I just need to smack them back into place from time to time. I say that with affection and respect and love.

No, the really potentially toxic people were MY parents. They were very immature and messed in the head when they had me. They let their problems impact my upbringing very badly at times. I've got a great relationship with them but I had to work through all their destructive crap and be really firm with them to get the relationship to a healthy place. They are very intelligent and good people so they worked on their faults. It all came together.

But they never would have lifted a finger to do any of that if I had not made it very clear even before I became a wife or a mother, that as an adult I was not going to tolerate one single toe out of line from them. Not one single unhealthy behavior or attitude. If they wanted to know what was acceptable, I was willing to tell them nicely. Basically I wanted nothing less than their personal best, and they have delivered.

Because I have made it known to all and sundry that I would not hesitate to throw any of them, parents or in-laws, permanently out of our lives if they were to act out any personality disorders on my watch. The kids take first priority and do not need to be subjected to narcissists or addicts or people with anger management issues or any of the gazillion other destructive flaws that exist out there. For that matter a spouse doesn't need to be subjected to that crap, either. And hey, what about me? I don't need it either! And it's mutual. I know they don't have to put up with my crap, either. So I make sure I put my best foot forward as a daughter and daughter-in-law.

I probably have made my own share of mistakes as a parent. I've done everything in my power to keep those to a minimum. But I damn sure did not allow any of the prior generations even an iota of a chance to pass down any of their dysfunction to the newest generation.

Now is NOT the time to be worrying about reconciling with your mother or appeasing her. By agreeing to the ban, it seems even she acknowledges that much.

For crying out loud, you've got this wonderful, patient, saint of a woman who also seems to be articulate and very clear and direct in communicating with you. Why do you persist in accusing her of manipulation or being unreasonable? Really, ask yourself why.

When you come here whining to us that it's not fair that she wants what she wants (in order to provide a secure environment to raise your child and to save your marriage) YOU are the one being manipulative and passive aggressive. It almost seems like you want to set your mother and wife fighting over you. Neither of them deserve that. Even if your mother is hell on wheels, she's mentally unhealthy and it does her no good for YOU to perpetually cast her in this role of antagonist in your life. She deserves a chance to smack her nose into some firm boundaries so she can improve herself, same as the rest of us had to.

You have the power to make your dysfunctional family members live up to their personal best by making it clear (firmly and without profanity) that you will not reward unhealthy behavior by giving them more access to your family, your time, your attention or more power over your life. Make your expectations clear in an encouraging way and tell your mom you are confident she will rise to the occasion and be a compassionate, considerate mother-in-law and a healthy presence in her grandchild's life....or else.

Best wishes, best of luck.

And remember, ask not what a new mom can do for you, ask what you can do for a new mom!
[doublepost=1462689844][/doublepost]PS...it would help you a lot if you stop thinking about how your upbringing screwed you up. It's over and done. Your mom effed up. Many mothers do. You're an adult now with a clearly intelligent brain in your favor. True, you sometimes seem willfully obtuse, but you're not stupid. It's not rocket science, dude.

Even if you feel like you don't know what normal is or should be...just start with the basics and listen to your wife because she is your priority and it's your relationship with her that is in the most jeopardy at the moment.

Stop worrying if she's being reasonable or not. Sometimes new mothers with all of their hormones are not reasonable...and still it is a wise spouse who heeds the wishes of the new mom anyway. At least get through that rough sleep deprived stressful first year together.

But in this case, yes, she is being more than patient and reasonable. In any case, if your wife lays out a path to reconciliation and it doesn't involve anything illegal or putting tutus on wolverines, sit down and listen to her. Her...not the lady at church or me here with my insomnia being all grumpy with you.

Use the sense God gave you. Stop, take a deep breath and remember you're no more miraculously stupid or brighter than the next guy just because your mom dropped the ball and maybe even dropped you on your head a few times. Hell, my mom literally dropped me on my head a few times. I turned out happy and well adjusted. Except for this damned menopause that's giving me insomnia. But that can't be helped.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I did see a therapist last week, but he wasn't very good. I'm trying one more session with him this week, and if it doesn't get better, I will be looking for someone else.

What didn't you like about the guy? One meeting can be very hard to make a judgement about the therapist? Usually the first meeting is a more of a meet and great, and an attempt to gain trust, create a personal relationship, and get to know you. Your shouldn't expect to be delving too far into the rough stuff in your first appointment. You may want to consider a female therapist if you feel more open with them, assuming that doesn't stir trouble with your wife. You can always say she was randomly assigned.

That's how I feel, that's what my orientation is like regarding in-laws, etc. I spoke to a woman at my church whose husband's parents pulled the same thing, telling him that maybe she's not right for him. She said that he put his foot down with them very strongly, but of course they're going to continue having relationship with them. So I told my wife that story as an example, and I think she understands that this is more a difference in attitude rather than evidence that I'm not loyal to her. What do you think? Am I right that generally people think of in-laws and extended family as an inevitable part of their lives, and simply try to manage it as best as possible?

As I said before, and as @GrumpyMom has alluded to, your wife is your wife- that can change at anytime. Your mother is your mother, that will never change. Given your moms apparent obsessive nature, its unlikely she will disown her even if you are open and honest with her.

In an ideal world everyone would get along, but we don't live in an ideal world. Given the roles and relationship to your wife and mother, it's more appropriate to ask your mother to change than your wife. Like we said, your mother will always be your mother. While perhaps your mom could make an effort to get along better with your wife, remember that this problem is about YOU and your lack of support.

As I also said earlier, how you do one this is often how you do (most, many) all other things. If your wife feels unsupported regarding your mother, she probably has this same feeling in other aspects of your marriage. Taking the route of least resistance and avoiding difficult situations due to your own anxiety/discomfort.

It almost seems like you want to set your mother and wife fighting over you.

I second this. Very perceptive. He may not realize it, but given his apparent need to pursue relationships I sense from another one of his other threads he feels the need to always be in a relationship and seek the admiration of others for his own validity.

I believe most people have an primary outlet (or inlet?) for validation to boost self esteem in addition to a host of others. Mine is definitely work and perfectionism. I do everything as throughly and efficiently and above and beyond the requirements to stand out and feel validated. For a lot of people, they require a relationship to feel valued. Some people its sex, drugs, exercise, shopping, etc. It's not ridiculous for someone to get some level of enjoyment feeling fought over despite the discomfort of the actual situation. At least it makes you feel wanted and therefore validated.

 

[Three141]

I realize it is kind of awkward to ask this question on a MacRumors forum, but this forum is full of normal people who belong to normal society, and so I feel like I could get some useful reflection on this situation here.

My wife and I have a 7 month old baby. My wife really hates my mother. My mother does have issues, and many of the tell-tale signs of a narcissist.

My wife is okay with my mom coming to visit us sometimes, but wants to limit the frequency and duration of the visits, because she hates my mom.

My mom is really excited about the baby, it's her first grandchild. I want to let her come visit on a fairly regular basis.

Given how my wife feels about my mom, what is reasonable for me to suggest in terms of how often we should have my mom over for a visit?

I've not read the rest of the responses but I will say treat both like adult first and get them to sit down and thrash it out and come to an agreement, if this don't work then sadly treating treating like kids is the next step i.e. set times your mother can visit and your other half can go out or something.

As long as the child is not in danger and each party does agrees not bad mouth the other to in front of the child it's the only way.

 

[annk]

I haven't read all the responses up to this point, so I may be repeating what others have said (or even what I myself said earlier).

It's great that you have a therapist - good for you! And I seem to remember you wrote that your wife was open to therapy, that's good too.

However, I think couples therapy is just as important. That way, the two of you can talk about the issue with professional support. That can help your discussion stay on track, and keep it moving forward in a constructive way.

You've probably gotten some good advice in this thread, but it's not always easy to tell good advice from bad. Remember that even those members who are therapists, studying to be therapists or just plain wise can't really get a handle on your situation through forum posts.

Good luck, it sounds like you really want this to work, and I wish you the best.

 

[5105973]

Happy Mothers Day to your wife. I hope all is well with you three today.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Now you're basing what you should do about your marriage on what some lady at church does with her village idiots? Hush, now. Just hush.

Sorry to butt in here. I was drawn to this thread out of curiosity because I married a mama and daddy's boy, too. But that was after several years of dating him and waiting for him to get his act together. And in that time I forged my own relationship with his parents. Once we had a kid they became overbearing again and we had to struggle to find new footing and new equilibrium again. But they were by no means in any way, shape or form toxic people. Annoying and needy and clingy, yeah, but not anything to set off the major alarm bells your mom...and possibly dad??? do. The dynamic they had with their son and their other kids isn't always super healthy, but it was not going to have toxic effects on their grandchildren. I like them quite a lot and love them as my blood kin. I just need to smack them back into place from time to time. I say that with affection and respect and love.

No, the really potentially toxic people were MY parents. They were very immature and messed in the head when they had me. They let their problems impact my upbringing very badly at times. I've got a great relationship with them but I had to work through all their destructive crap and be really firm with them to get the relationship to a healthy place. They are very intelligent and good people so they worked on their faults. It all came together.

But they never would have lifted a finger to do any of that if I had not made it very clear even before I became a wife or a mother, that as an adult I was not going to tolerate one single toe out of line from them. Not one single unhealthy behavior or attitude. If they wanted to know what was acceptable, I was willing to tell them nicely. Basically I wanted nothing less than their personal best, and they have delivered.

Because I have made it known to all and sundry that I would not hesitate to throw any of them, parents or in-laws, permanently out of our lives if they were to act out any personality disorders on my watch. The kids take first priority and do not need to be subjected to narcissists or addicts or people with anger management issues or any of the gazillion other destructive flaws that exist out there. For that matter a spouse doesn't need to be subjected to that crap, either. And hey, what about me? I don't need it either! And it's mutual. I know they don't have to put up with my crap, either. So I make sure I put my best foot forward as a daughter and daughter-in-law.

I probably have made my own share of mistakes as a parent. I've done everything in my power to keep those to a minimum. But I damn sure did not allow any of the prior generations even an iota of a chance to pass down any of their dysfunction to the newest generation.

Now is NOT the time to be worrying about reconciling with your mother or appeasing her. By agreeing to the ban, it seems even she acknowledges that much.

For crying out loud, you've got this wonderful, patient, saint of a woman who also seems to be articulate and very clear and direct in communicating with you. Why do you persist in accusing her of manipulation or being unreasonable? Really, ask yourself why.

When you come here whining to us that it's not fair that she wants what she wants (in order to provide a secure environment to raise your child and to save your marriage) YOU are the one being manipulative and passive aggressive. It almost seems like you want to set your mother and wife fighting over you. Neither of them deserve that. Even if your mother is hell on wheels, she's mentally unhealthy and it does her no good for YOU to perpetually cast her in this role of antagonist in your life. She deserves a chance to smack her nose into some firm boundaries so she can improve herself, same as the rest of us had to.

You have the power to make your dysfunctional family members live up to their personal best by making it clear (firmly and without profanity) that you will not reward unhealthy behavior by giving them more access to your family, your time, your attention or more power over your life. Make your expectations clear in an encouraging way and tell your mom you are confident she will rise to the occasion and be a compassionate, considerate mother-in-law and a healthy presence in her grandchild's life....or else.

Best wishes, best of luck.

And remember, ask not what a new mom can do for you, ask what you can do for a new mom!
[doublepost=1462689844][/doublepost]PS...it would help you a lot if you stop thinking about how your upbringing screwed you up. It's over and done. Your mom effed up. Many mothers do. You're an adult now with a clearly intelligent brain in your favor. True, you sometimes seem willfully obtuse, but you're not stupid. It's not rocket science, dude.

Even if you feel like you don't know what normal is or should be...just start with the basics and listen to your wife because she is your priority and it's your relationship with her that is in the most jeopardy at the moment.

Stop worrying if she's being reasonable or not. Sometimes new mothers with all of their hormones are not reasonable...and still it is a wise spouse who heeds the wishes of the new mom anyway. At least get through that rough sleep deprived stressful first year together.

But in this case, yes, she is being more than patient and reasonable. In any case, if your wife lays out a path to reconciliation and it doesn't involve anything illegal or putting tutus on wolverines, sit down and listen to her. Her...not the lady at church or me here with my insomnia being all grumpy with you.

Use the sense God gave you. Stop, take a deep breath and remember you're no more miraculously stupid or brighter than the next guy just because your mom dropped the ball and maybe even dropped you on your head a few times. Hell, my mom literally dropped me on my head a few times. I turned out happy and well adjusted. Except for this damned menopause that's giving me insomnia. But that can't be helped.

Superb post and one which I devoutly hope that the OP reads, and reads again, and then commits to memory. Very well said and argued.

To the OP: What is 'reasonable' is that you pay heed to - and be guided by - your wife's expressed concerns on this, instead of ceaselessly returning to it in the hope of circumventing her concerns and persuading her that a different course of action is 'inevitable' because it is preferable to you.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Now you're basing what you should do about your marriage on what some lady at church does with her village idiots? Hush, now. Just hush.

Sorry to butt in here. I was drawn to this thread out of curiosity because I married a mama and daddy's boy, too. But that was after several years of dating him and waiting for him to get his act together. And in that time I forged my own relationship with his parents. Once we had a kid they became overbearing again and we had to struggle to find new footing and new equilibrium again. But they were by no means in any way, shape or form toxic people. Annoying and needy and clingy, yeah, but not anything to set off the major alarm bells your mom...and possibly dad??? do. The dynamic they had with their son and their other kids isn't always super healthy, but it was not going to have toxic effects on their grandchildren. I like them quite a lot and love them as my blood kin. I just need to smack them back into place from time to time. I say that with affection and respect and love.

No, the really potentially toxic people were MY parents. They were very immature and messed in the head when they had me. They let their problems impact my upbringing very badly at times. I've got a great relationship with them but I had to work through all their destructive crap and be really firm with them to get the relationship to a healthy place. They are very intelligent and good people so they worked on their faults. It all came together.

But they never would have lifted a finger to do any of that if I had not made it very clear even before I became a wife or a mother, that as an adult I was not going to tolerate one single toe out of line from them. Not one single unhealthy behavior or attitude. If they wanted to know what was acceptable, I was willing to tell them nicely. Basically I wanted nothing less than their personal best, and they have delivered.

Because I have made it known to all and sundry that I would not hesitate to throw any of them, parents or in-laws, permanently out of our lives if they were to act out any personality disorders on my watch. The kids take first priority and do not need to be subjected to narcissists or addicts or people with anger management issues or any of the gazillion other destructive flaws that exist out there. For that matter a spouse doesn't need to be subjected to that crap, either. And hey, what about me? I don't need it either! And it's mutual. I know they don't have to put up with my crap, either. So I make sure I put my best foot forward as a daughter and daughter-in-law.

I probably have made my own share of mistakes as a parent. I've done everything in my power to keep those to a minimum. But I damn sure did not allow any of the prior generations even an iota of a chance to pass down any of their dysfunction to the newest generation.

Now is NOT the time to be worrying about reconciling with your mother or appeasing her. By agreeing to the ban, it seems even she acknowledges that much.

For crying out loud, you've got this wonderful, patient, saint of a woman who also seems to be articulate and very clear and direct in communicating with you. Why do you persist in accusing her of manipulation or being unreasonable? Really, ask yourself why.

When you come here whining to us that it's not fair that she wants what she wants (in order to provide a secure environment to raise your child and to save your marriage) YOU are the one being manipulative and passive aggressive. It almost seems like you want to set your mother and wife fighting over you. Neither of them deserve that. Even if your mother is hell on wheels, she's mentally unhealthy and it does her no good for YOU to perpetually cast her in this role of antagonist in your life. She deserves a chance to smack her nose into some firm boundaries so she can improve herself, same as the rest of us had to.

You have the power to make your dysfunctional family members live up to their personal best by making it clear (firmly and without profanity) that you will not reward unhealthy behavior by giving them more access to your family, your time, your attention or more power over your life. Make your expectations clear in an encouraging way and tell your mom you are confident she will rise to the occasion and be a compassionate, considerate mother-in-law and a healthy presence in her grandchild's life....or else.

Best wishes, best of luck.

And remember, ask not what a new mom can do for you, ask what you can do for a new mom!
[doublepost=1462689844][/doublepost]PS...it would help you a lot if you stop thinking about how your upbringing screwed you up. It's over and done. Your mom effed up. Many mothers do. You're an adult now with a clearly intelligent brain in your favor. True, you sometimes seem willfully obtuse, but you're not stupid. It's not rocket science, dude.

Even if you feel like you don't know what normal is or should be...just start with the basics and listen to your wife because she is your priority and it's your relationship with her that is in the most jeopardy at the moment.

Stop worrying if she's being reasonable or not. Sometimes new mothers with all of their hormones are not reasonable...and still it is a wise spouse who heeds the wishes of the new mom anyway. At least get through that rough sleep deprived stressful first year together.

But in this case, yes, she is being more than patient and reasonable. In any case, if your wife lays out a path to reconciliation and it doesn't involve anything illegal or putting tutus on wolverines, sit down and listen to her. Her...not the lady at church or me here with my insomnia being all grumpy with you.

Use the sense God gave you. Stop, take a deep breath and remember you're no more miraculously stupid or brighter than the next guy just because your mom dropped the ball and maybe even dropped you on your head a few times. Hell, my mom literally dropped me on my head a few times. I turned out happy and well adjusted. Except for this damned menopause that's giving me insomnia. But that can't be helped.

I love what you're saying, and some anxiety came up for me while reading it. First I feared that my parents aren't any more toxic than yours, and that my wife is being unreasonable for thinking so. And then I felt anxious about what you said about giving them a chance to experience boundaries and improve themselves, because my wife's attitude is that they'll never change, and she doesn't understand why I don't just want to exile them completely because of their flaws.

Could you tell me what sort of problematic behavior you're referring to, that you believe isn't toxic?

See my wife feels that even if they can learn to behave in a more kind, respectful way, that they're only doing that because they've learned that that's now their best bet at getting what they want, so it's still out of selfishness. She sees my mom as irredeemably self-serving, no matter what she does at this point, and that even extends to my mom peacefully agreeing to and even advocating for the six-month ban. On the one hand she's skeptical that my mom will actually make it six months without reaching out to me (or vice versa), and on the other she feels that even if the six months goes by successfully, that it would just be because my mom was very clear that that's her best way of maximizing visit time with her granddaughter in the future.

I spoke to her yesterday about how it's okay to have a relationship with my parents if I establish appropriate boundaries, and she still didn't understand exactly why I wouldn't just ban them completely based on their flaws. I told her that a lot of people don't approach extended family and in-laws with such an attitude, and I think she could see that that was true.

Edit: Re-reading your post, I realize you did say that your own parents were toxic, which reinforces my fears and anxieties even more, because I feel as you do; that even if my parents are potentially toxic, that there is value in setting strong boundaries such that we can still have a relationship with them, where they learn how to behave appropriately. My wife doesn't feel there's value in that. She says "If they have problems, why are we trying to help them? Why are we parenting them? Why don't we just exile them?" My answer is probably similar to what yours would be: They're my parents, I would like us to have a relationship with them if it can be managed in a way where they learn to behave respectfully. My wife says "even if they behave that way, it's only to get what they want."

 

[StephenCampbell]

Superb post and one which I devoutly hope that the OP reads, and reads again, and then commits to memory. Very well said and argued.

To the OP: What is 'reasonable' is that you pay heed to - and be guided by - your wife's expressed concerns on this, instead of ceaselessly returning to it in the hope of circumventing her concerns and persuading her that a different course of action is 'inevitable' because it is preferable to you.

Right, except that she emphasizes how one should set boundaries with parents in the interest of having a good relationship with them, and my wife is saying "why would you Want to have a relationship with them when they screwed you up, when your mom is a narcissist who emotionally abused you, and when they haven't been supportive of your marriage?"

She says she is not asking me to ban them forever, but she's having trouble understanding why I wouldn't want to. I would say the same thing that grumpymom said, that my parents are intelligent and well-intentioned, for all their flaws. My wife feels that if I see them as well-intentioned, it is because of my bias towards them, and that hopefully therapy will fix that.

So I strongly agree with everything grumpymom said, but it concerns me and brings up some anxiety because it reinforces my feeling that it makes sense to set boundaries and try to have a good relationship with parents, which is a view that my wife is currently skeptical of. She says "Why have these people in our life? What's the point?"

 

[mscriv]

@StephenCampbell, the problem in your relationship isn't as simple as setting boundaries vs. banning your parents from your life. Everything that you have described in this entire thread comes down to one key relationship dynamic, a foundational one in marriage, and that is trust. The simple fact is that your wife doesn't trust you to consistently put her first. From the history you have described, it sounds like she has been trying to trust that you want her to be priority number one, but in her view time and time again you have chosen your parent's feelings, needs, and desires over hers. When trust is lost, the results are hurt, disappointment, lack of confidence in the relationship, anger, and most of all... fear. When people are motivated by fear they often turn to what may seem like extreme measures. From what you have described it seems to me that, every time she has been willing to compromise regarding the nature of the relationship with your family, you push her boundaries in an attempt to bring things more in align with what you want. It's the old saying, "give an inch, and the person will take a mile". This constant invalidation of her feelings has put her in a position where the only option that seems feasible now is to cut off all contact with them or worse yet, to end the marriage.

If you will honestly reread this thread with a genuine desire to "look in the mirror" then I think you may be able to see this back and forth within yourself because it shows up in your posts. For example, you recently told us about this agreed upon 6 month break from your parents. In fact, you even clearly posted that both you and your mother were okay with it. Now, you are communicating that as soon as the subject was discussed again with your wife that you are already asking her for opportunities to take the baby to visit your mom without her. You talk about boundaries, but do you see how you are the one whose actions seem to show that you don't understand them. A boundary was set and agreed upon, but in a very short period of time you are already pushing that boundary because you are worried about someone else's feelings as opposed to keeping your wife's feelings the priority.

The relationship between your wife and your parents is not the problem here. Sure, there are problems there, but that is not the primary problem that needs to be addressed. Your wife doesn't trust your ability put her first. And thus, any contact you have with your parents at this point represents a threat to that. Taking the baby for a visit without your wife seems like a reasonable option to you because you think the problem is your wife and mom's relationship. However, since the problem is your relationship with your mom and the enmeshed and unhealthy nature of that relationship, then going without your wife is an even scarier option for her than the two of you going together. Do you see that?

The only solution to the current struggles in your marriage is the restoration of trust. You have to overcome your wife's fear and prove through consistent actions that she and your child are more important than anyone else. You mentioned church in one of your posts. If faith is a key component in your life and relationship then I would also suggest searching for answers and support there. We can talk more about that if you would like as well.

 

[StephenCampbell]

@StephenCampbell, the problem in your relationship isn't as simple as setting boundaries vs. banning your parents from your life. Everything that you have described in this entire thread comes down to one key relationship dynamic, a foundational one in marriage, and that is trust. The simple fact is that your wife doesn't trust you to consistently put her first. From the history you have described, it sounds like she has been trying to trust that you want her to be priority number one, but in her view time and time again you have chosen your parent's feelings, needs, and desires over hers. When trust is lost, the results are hurt, disappointment, lack of confidence in the relationship, anger, and most of all... fear. When people are motivated by fear they often turn to what may seem like extreme measures. From what you have described it seems to me that, every time she has been willing to compromise regarding the nature of the relationship with your family, you push her boundaries in an attempt to bring things more in align with what you want. It's the old saying, "give an inch, and the person will take a mile". This constant invalidation of her feelings has put her in a position where the only option that seems feasible now is to cut off all contact with them or worse yet, to end the marriage.

If you will honestly reread this thread with a genuine desire to "look in the mirror" then I think you may be able to see this back and forth within yourself because it shows up in your posts. For example, you recently told us about this agreed upon 6 month break from your parents. In fact, you even clearly posted that both you and your mother were okay with it. Now, you are communicating that as soon as the subject was discussed again with your wife that you are already asking her for opportunities to take the baby to visit your mom without her. You talk about boundaries, but do you see how you are one whose actions seem to show that you don't understand them. A boundary was set and agreed upon, but in a very short period of time you are already pushing that boundary because you are worried about someone else's feelings as opposed to keeping your wife's feelings the priority.

The relationship between your wife and your parents is not the problem here. Sure, there are problems there, but that is not the primary problem that needs to be addressed. Your wife doesn't trust your ability put her first. And thus, any contact you have with your parents at this point represents a threat to that. Taking the baby for a visit without your wife seems like a reasonable option to you because you think the problem is your wife and mom's relationship. However, since the problem is your relationship with your mom and the enmeshed and unhealthy nature of that relationship, then going without your wife is an even scarier option for her than the two of you going together. Do you see that?

The only solution to the current struggles in your marriage is the restoration of trust. You have to overcome your wife's fear and prove through consistent actions that she and your child are more important than anyone else. You mentioned church in one of your posts. If faith is a key component in your life and relationship then I would also suggest searching for answers and support there. We can talk more about that if you would like as well.

This is spot on, thank you. Yes, that trust is missing right now.

To clarify, she was the one who brought up the subject again a couple days ago, and it's actually pretty sad because she brought it up in a happy "now I can talk about this without stress because I know you're on my side" kind of way, and then I went and started pushing for visits more than she had agreed to, once the six months are over.

The difficulty for me is that from the beginning of this I have felt like she is being unreasonable in terms of my mom, unreasonable in how much she hates her, etc. I know I'm wrong on that, but it's the way my feelings were! I couldn't help it. So when I end up pushing again for more visitation rights for my mom, I feel like I'm merely saying "okay so can you be more reasonable now and just let the poor woman see her grandchild?"

When I push everything out of my mind except for "just be loyal to your wife, go with her feelings" then I feel pretty stable, but inevitably I may end up having feelings that the situation is not fair. I try to remind myself that she has felt neglected for so many months, but that doesn't always help, because I feel like she was being unreasonable in feeling neglected, and that there shouldn't have been a problem with me wanting my mom to be able to see her grandchild regularly. I'm not saying I believe this, I'm just explaining the way my feelings tend to go. This is what I'm dealing with internally, and I don't always know what to believe.

Right now she feels good, but is angry at my parents for screwing me up (because of how much pain and complication it has brought to our marriage mostly), and worried about what will happen once the six months are over.
[doublepost=1462761486][/doublepost]Grumpymom, I would love to know more details about your situation when your kids were little. What do you consider toxic in-law behavior? How often did your kids see your parents or your in-laws? Etc.

 

[5105973]

Child, don't make me come over there!

no no no no no! I'm not going to tell you one single more thing about my parents or my in laws because you're going to get it all twisted around in your head to justify running back to your mom.

Stop it! Stop it right now!

Every blessed thing everybody has posted to you, you either let it sail right over your head or you grasp at it to reinforce the absolutely unforgivable position you are taking against your wife.

I do not know how you took from my post that you have to keep your toxic mama in the picture.

Reread what I said. I straightened that garbage out BEFORE I got married, i.e. dragged an innocent person into that mess. And I wasn't about to let that mess anywhere near the children I was contemplating having.

I took it all in hand the minute I became a legal adult and got a steady income to build myself the leverage needed to exert some authority to get everyone to straighten out.

And I actually started with myself first. I took stock of my strengths and weaknesses and formulated a very long term plan to change the things about myself that weren't very constructive traits. It took hard work and lots brutal honesty about what an absolute horse's patootie I could be sometimes. But it was not hard to figure out the traits I had that were sabotaging my chances at happiness. Cause and effect will tell any fool that much.

Oh..and I only feel free mentioning this to you because you mentioned church...I did pray for help and guidance. I'm not religious per se, but I do adhere to the Christian faith in my own way. The things I felt I could change and influence, I made every effort to. The things in other people that were beyond my control, I prayed for help...not just for my benefit but that of the effed up person I wanted made whole and healthy and a better person.

Anyway....back to you....

Stop insisting your wife has to come around and see anything your way. The woman sensibly has one foot out the door. Right now it's baby steps for you mister. You gotta keep that woman. She's a real catch for putting up with what you are doing you bull-headed fool.

Wise up...you got mama to agree to make herself scarce for six months. That's fantastic!

Now stop thinking about mama and how you're going to get her back in your life. Stop talking about it. Stop rubbing your wife's nose in how bad you want this resolved. Is that getting either of you anywhere right now? No, it is not. So stop it! Again, cause and effect. It's not that hard to figure out. If it is making things difficult, drop it! All in due time.

I repeat, as I knock on that hard head of yours, the woman has had it up to here with you. Stop. Cease, desist. Take one day at a time. From the moment you wake up to the time you go to bed, concern yourself with whatever it is you do for a living. Concern yourself with anything around the house your wife can't get to because she's busy with a new baby. Concern yourself with figuring out how to treat your wife to a nice break from her routine while also managing to incorporate the baby into it.

Get that therapy everybody on this thread is telling you to get.

Do NOT concern yourself with what your mom is thinking, wanting, eating for breakfast or watching on tv. She is banned. She does not exist right now. Leave it alone!

All I see you doing is scanning every bit of help and advice everyone is pouring their heart and soul into giving you for words that will reinforce this ridiculous position you have taken up that you must be your mother's advocate against your wife. If your mom were acting in a normal way and it was your wife acting batpoop crazy, I'd tell you. We would all tell you and advise you how to advocate for your mom.

But nobody is doing that, at least not anybody who cared enough to read all the way through the thread and every post in it. Plus all the people who seem to know you from other threads. There's not a single one of them telling you, oh your wife is being unreasonable, you better help your mom out.

I don't mean to be mean to you. This is how I talk to one of the kids in my family when they are being obtuse and dead set on seeking confirmation bias for whatever harebrained thing they've got their minds set on now. That never comes from me. I don't beat around the bush. This is genuine care and concern from a grumpy middle aged mom coming at you. I'm giving you my sincere best effort.

You're screwing up. Badly. But it's not hopeless. IF you FOCUS on the one thing you genuinely are about to lose...your relationship with your wife. Make that two things: you will also lose hope of a functional relationship with your child if you keep on thinking about your mom. Focus on the wife and both of you together focus on the kid. It's really not rocket science.

Mama is fine. She's a grown woman. She has had her marriage and raised her kids. If she screwed that up, she needs to own it and take her lumps. She does NOT get a do over with your kid and she does not get to influence your marriage. Don't let her! Now stop thinking about her. Stop talking about her. Get back to her in six months plus tack on a few days to the ban for the days you spent thinking of her and speaking about her to your wife when there's supposed to be a ban in effect. Don't worry about if that is fair to her or not. She did something seriously wonky when she raised you and the ban is the lump she earns for that. We all take our lumps for screwing up. That's the incentive for not screwing up any further.

Worry about being fair to your wife and your kid now. You have been very badly shortchanging them. At least that's how I see it from what I have been reading. You really need to take the advice you were given to take this all to family and individual therapy.

Don't concern yourself about what I went through in life. That's been taken care of. Done and settled to everyone's satisfaction. You need to find your own path out of your own mess. My messes aren't your messes. I can extrapolate from certain similarities to give you some perspectives you might lack. And give you some advice. But only with the help of someone who can speak to you and your wife and get the most complete picture possible, can you develop the judgement to know which advice is the best to take and the best way to apply it. Get thee to the therapist. All of y'all!

 

[ouimetnick]

Child, don't make me come over there!

no no no no no! I'm not going to tell you one single more thing about my parents or my in laws because you're going to get it all twisted around in your head to justify running back to your mom.

Stop it! Stop it right now!

Every blessed thing everybody has posted to you, you either let it sail right over your head or you grasp at it to reinforce the absolutely unforgivable position you are taking against your wife.

I do not know how you took from my post that you have to keep your toxic mama in the picture.

Reread what I said. I straightened that garbage out BEFORE I got married, i.e. dragged an innocent person into that mess. And I wasn't about to let that mess anywhere near the children I was contemplating having.

I took it all in hand the minute I became a legal adult and got a steady income to build myself the leverage needed to exert some authority to get everyone to straighten out.

And I actually started with myself first. I took stock of my strengths and weaknesses and formulated a very long term plan to change the things about myself that weren't very constructive traits. It took hard work and lots brutal honesty about what an absolute horse's patootie I could be sometimes. But it was not hard to figure out the traits I had that were sabotaging my chances at happiness. Cause and effect will tell any fool that much.

Oh..and I only feel free mentioning this to you because you mentioned church...I did pray for help and guidance. I'm not religious per se, but I do adhere to the Christian faith in my own way. The things I felt I could change and influence, I made every effort to. The things in other people that were beyond my control, I prayed for help...not just for my benefit but that of the effed up person I wanted made whole and healthy and a better person.

Anyway....back to you....

Stop insisting your wife has to come around and see anything your way. The woman sensibly has one foot out the door. Right now it's baby steps for you mister. You gotta keep that woman. She's a real catch for putting up with what you are doing you bull-headed fool.

Wise up...you got mama to agree to make herself scarce for six months. That's fantastic!

Now stop thinking about mama and how you're going to get her back in your life. Stop talking about it. Stop rubbing your wife's nose in how bad you want this resolved. Is that getting either of you anywhere right now? No, it is not. So stop it! Again, cause and effect. It's not that hard to figure out. If it is making things difficult, drop it! All in due time.

I repeat, as I knock on that hard head of yours, the woman has had it up to here with you. Stop. Cease, desist. Take one day at a time. From the moment you wake up to the time you go to bed, concern yourself with whatever it is you do for a living. Concern yourself with anything around the house your wife can't get to because she's busy with a new baby. Concern yourself with figuring out how to treat your wife to a nice break from her routine while also managing to incorporate the baby into it.

Get that therapy everybody on this thread is telling you to get.

Do NOT concern yourself with what your mom is thinking, wanting, eating for breakfast or watching on tv. She is banned. She does not exist right now. Leave it alone!

All I see you doing is scanning every bit of help and advice everyone is pouring their heart and soul into giving you for words that will reinforce this ridiculous position you have taken up that you must be your mother's advocate against your wife. If your mom were acting in a normal way and it was your wife acting batpoop crazy, I'd tell you. We would all tell you and advise you how to advocate for your mom.

But nobody is doing that, at least not anybody who cared enough to read all the way through the thread and every post in it. Plus all the people who seem to know you from other threads. There's not a single one of them telling you, oh your wife is being unreasonable, you better help your mom out.

I don't mean to be mean to you. This is how I talk to one of the kids in my family when they are being obtuse and dead set on seeking confirmation bias for whatever harebrained thing they've got their minds set on now. That never comes from me. I don't beat around the bush. This is genuine care and concern from a grumpy middle aged mom coming at you. I'm giving you my sincere best effort.

You're screwing up. Badly. But it's not hopeless. IF you FOCUS on the one thing you genuinely are about to lose...your relationship with your wife. Make that two things: you will also lose hope of a functional relationship with your child if you keep on thinking about your mom. Focus on the wife and both of you together focus on the kid. It's really not rocket science.

Mama is fine. She's a grown woman. She has had her marriage and raised her kids. If she screwed that up, she needs to own it and take her lumps. She does NOT get a do over with your kid and she does not get to influence your marriage. Don't let her! Now stop thinking about her. Stop talking about her. Get back to her in six months plus tack on a few days to the ban for the days you spent thinking of her and speaking about her to your wife when there's supposed to be a ban in effect. Don't worry about if that is fair to her or not. She did something seriously wonky when she raised you and the ban is the lump she earns for that. We all take our lumps for screwing up. That's the incentive for not screwing up any further.

Worry about being fair to your wife and your kid now. You have been very badly shortchanging them. At least that's how I see it from what I have been reading. You really need to take the advice you were given to take this all to family and individual therapy.

Don't concern yourself about what I went through in life. That's been taken care of. Done and settled to everyone's satisfaction. You need to find your own path out of your own mess. My messes aren't your messes. I can extrapolate from certain similarities to give you some perspectives you might lack. And give you some advice. But only with the help of someone who can speak to you and your wife and get the most complete picture possible, can you develop the judgement to know which advice is the best to take and the best way to apply it. Get thee to the therapist. All of y'all!

Really well written! I would have lost my patience a long time ago as you can see in the previous post. This guy has an unhealthy obsession with his mother. Freud was right about the Oedipus complex here. I don't think the wife should stay in such an unhealthy environment. She sounds like an amazing person, and the OP is too immature for a relationship. I feel bad for the wife and child. I don't have much confidence in the marriage. OP, stop thinking about your mother. Who cares about what she feels? Your wife isn't being unreasonable, and even if she was, she has every right to be so. You sir are the unreasonable person. I get the feeling you like being fought over, very insecure and need attention.

Seek professional help.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Child, don't make me come over there!

no no no no no! I'm not going to tell you one single more thing about my parents or my in laws because you're going to get it all twisted around in your head to justify running back to your mom.

Stop it! Stop it right now!

Every blessed thing everybody has posted to you, you either let it sail right over your head or you grasp at it to reinforce the absolutely unforgivable position you are taking against your wife.

I do not know how you took from my post that you have to keep your toxic mama in the picture.

Reread what I said. I straightened that garbage out BEFORE I got married, i.e. dragged an innocent person into that mess. And I wasn't about to let that mess anywhere near the children I was contemplating having.

I took it all in hand the minute I became a legal adult and got a steady income to build myself the leverage needed to exert some authority to get everyone to straighten out.

And I actually started with myself first. I took stock of my strengths and weaknesses and formulated a very long term plan to change the things about myself that weren't very constructive traits. It took hard work and lots brutal honesty about what an absolute horse's patootie I could be sometimes. But it was not hard to figure out the traits I had that were sabotaging my chances at happiness. Cause and effect will tell any fool that much.

Oh..and I only feel free mentioning this to you because you mentioned church...I did pray for help and guidance. I'm not religious per se, but I do adhere to the Christian faith in my own way. The things I felt I could change and influence, I made every effort to. The things in other people that were beyond my control, I prayed for help...not just for my benefit but that of the effed up person I wanted made whole and healthy and a better person.

Anyway....back to you....

Stop insisting your wife has to come around and see anything your way. The woman sensibly has one foot out the door. Right now it's baby steps for you mister. You gotta keep that woman. She's a real catch for putting up with what you are doing you bull-headed fool.

Wise up...you got mama to agree to make herself scarce for six months. That's fantastic!

Now stop thinking about mama and how you're going to get her back in your life. Stop talking about it. Stop rubbing your wife's nose in how bad you want this resolved. Is that getting either of you anywhere right now? No, it is not. So stop it! Again, cause and effect. It's not that hard to figure out. If it is making things difficult, drop it! All in due time.

I repeat, as I knock on that hard head of yours, the woman has had it up to here with you. Stop. Cease, desist. Take one day at a time. From the moment you wake up to the time you go to bed, concern yourself with whatever it is you do for a living. Concern yourself with anything around the house your wife can't get to because she's busy with a new baby. Concern yourself with figuring out how to treat your wife to a nice break from her routine while also managing to incorporate the baby into it.

Get that therapy everybody on this thread is telling you to get.

Do NOT concern yourself with what your mom is thinking, wanting, eating for breakfast or watching on tv. She is banned. She does not exist right now. Leave it alone!

All I see you doing is scanning every bit of help and advice everyone is pouring their heart and soul into giving you for words that will reinforce this ridiculous position you have taken up that you must be your mother's advocate against your wife. If your mom were acting in a normal way and it was your wife acting batpoop crazy, I'd tell you. We would all tell you and advise you how to advocate for your mom.

But nobody is doing that, at least not anybody who cared enough to read all the way through the thread and every post in it. Plus all the people who seem to know you from other threads. There's not a single one of them telling you, oh your wife is being unreasonable, you better help your mom out.

I don't mean to be mean to you. This is how I talk to one of the kids in my family when they are being obtuse and dead set on seeking confirmation bias for whatever harebrained thing they've got their minds set on now. That never comes from me. I don't beat around the bush. This is genuine care and concern from a grumpy middle aged mom coming at you. I'm giving you my sincere best effort.

You're screwing up. Badly. But it's not hopeless. IF you FOCUS on the one thing you genuinely are about to lose...your relationship with your wife. Make that two things: you will also lose hope of a functional relationship with your child if you keep on thinking about your mom. Focus on the wife and both of you together focus on the kid. It's really not rocket science.

Mama is fine. She's a grown woman. She has had her marriage and raised her kids. If she screwed that up, she needs to own it and take her lumps. She does NOT get a do over with your kid and she does not get to influence your marriage. Don't let her! Now stop thinking about her. Stop talking about her. Get back to her in six months plus tack on a few days to the ban for the days you spent thinking of her and speaking about her to your wife when there's supposed to be a ban in effect. Don't worry about if that is fair to her or not. She did something seriously wonky when she raised you and the ban is the lump she earns for that. We all take our lumps for screwing up. That's the incentive for not screwing up any further.

Worry about being fair to your wife and your kid now. You have been very badly shortchanging them. At least that's how I see it from what I have been reading. You really need to take the advice you were given to take this all to family and individual therapy.

Don't concern yourself about what I went through in life. That's been taken care of. Done and settled to everyone's satisfaction. You need to find your own path out of your own mess. My messes aren't your messes. I can extrapolate from certain similarities to give you some perspectives you might lack. And give you some advice. But only with the help of someone who can speak to you and your wife and get the most complete picture possible, can you develop the judgement to know which advice is the best to take and the best way to apply it. Get thee to the therapist. All of y'all!

Okay I get it! I have actually been the one saying that we need to drop it and not talk about my mom for six months, and my wife continually brings stuff up because she feels upset about the fact that it took threatening to leave to get me to take this seriously, which is understandable. So the thing I need to do is to just say to her "I'm on your side, my mom never has to visit if you're not comfortable with it" etc, and the conversations would then go really smoothly, and pretty quickly she'd stop bringing it up probably.

We just had a short text exchange while I was at work, and she admitted that if/when her trust in me is fully restored, she would not feel as threatened by my mom. And I told her for the first time ever that if she's not comfortable with my mom visiting, then my mom won't visit. I also told her that the six months are a minimum, and it will be however long it takes for me to work this out within myself and commence a healthy adult relationship with my mom, which would include demanding that she respect my wife and treat us as a single unit.

I'm very clear that we need to not talk about my mom for a while, I've been wanting to do that. And I am not concerned with my mom's feelings, or what she's thinking, etc. Even if I learned that she's been crying every day since the ban started, I really wouldn't care that much. My marriage almost fell apart because of her. I need to focus on my family, and if she's crying it's really not a priority of mine to care about it right now.

The advice I most need to internalize is your 'small steps' advice. That would be really helpful for me to really get, so that I can focus on the day to day of rebuilding my marriage, without freaking out about the future.

The only thing is I do wish you would tell me what you consider to be toxic behavior, because there is a part of me that feels that a lot of people would not consider my mom's behavior to be toxic. I feel like a lot of people would see her as quirky, self-centered, annoying, but not a "horrible, toxic, abusive" person, the way my wife describes her.

 

[5105973]

Okay I get it! I have actually been the one saying that we need to drop it and not talk about my mom for six months, and my wife continually brings stuff up because she feels upset about the fact that it took threatening to leave to get me to take this seriously, which is understandable. So the thing I need to do is to just say to her "I'm on your side, my mom never has to visit if you're not comfortable with it" etc, and the conversations would then go really smoothly, and pretty quickly she'd stop bringing it up probably.

We just had a short text exchange while I was at work, and she admitted that if/when her trust in me is fully restored, she would not feel as threatened by my mom. And I told her for the first time ever that if she's not comfortable with my mom visiting, then my mom won't visit. I also told her that the six months are a minimum, and it will be however long it takes for me to work this out within myself and commence a healthy adult relationship with my mom, which would include demanding that she respect my wife and treat us as a single unit.

I'm very clear that we need to not talk about my mom for a while, I've been wanting to do that. And I am not concerned with my mom's feelings, or what she's thinking, etc. Even if I learned that she's been crying every day since the ban started, I really wouldn't care that much. My marriage almost fell apart because of her. I need to focus on my family, and if she's crying it's really not a priority of mine to care about it right now.

The advice I most need to internalize is your 'small steps' advice. That would be really helpful for me to really get, so that I can focus on the day to day of rebuilding my marriage, without freaking out about the future.

The only thing is I do wish you would tell me what you consider to be toxic behavior, because there is a part of me that feels that a lot of people would not consider my mom's behavior to be toxic. I feel like a lot of people would see her as quirky, self-centered, annoying, but not a "horrible, toxic, abusive" person, the way my wife describes her.

I'm not going anywhere unless I croak or something. So how about after you've had the full six months of just being husband and dad, not the son for once, we revisit this concept of what toxic behavior is as it pertains to your mom.

If we need to. Hopefully by then your therapist will already have that subject covered or will prepare to cover it. I'm just a mom who loves iPhones. I'm not sure I'm qualified to walk that landmine with you except to point out the obvious that anyone with any common sense and distance from your situation could.

Meanwhile it's really hard to talk about people who don't exist.

Keep in mind for the future after the ban, it's not your job to make your mother a better person for her own sake. That can often be a nice side effect, but it's not your job. Your goal is to make sure that when she is in your presence and wife and child's presence that she keep her personality disorders in a closet somewhere and is a pleasant and positive person to you and yours. It's her job to battle her own demons and fix her own ways...preferably with her own therapist and out of your sight. You've got your own troubles. You don't need to be borrowing hers. Or any other person who comes into your life and causes upheaval.

When your wife tries to bring up the subject of your mom, and she may persist because she's probably trying to figure out a lot of different things, just tell her the truth: You can't focus on her and the baby if you talk or think about your mom.

It would bring back the tendencies you're trying to break away from. If SHE asks, reassure her (and yourself) that you are not putting off trouble for another day, you're trying to get distance so you can form a new perspective. One as a father and husband. Not as a son. Once you grow into your new role and become rock steady in it, then you can sort out the proper role for an adult son who has a family of his own to nurture now. But that's for another time.

Here is something to help you visualize and focus.


When you find your thoughts drifting to reintroducing your Mom back into the equation. Remind yourself "one thing at a time"...think of your baby's face and think of what Grumpy Cat would say about the direction your thoughts are drifting in that are taking your focus away from your precious child:



When you find yourself for even a moment attempting to analyze your mom's behavior, stop, smack yourself upside the head and think of Grumpy Cat:



I didn't have grumpy cat memes in my day but this isn't far from the process I used to wean myself from unhelpful thought patterns.

All right now I've got finish my tea and get everyone off to school and work. Nobody wants eggs this morning and there is a modest missing shin guard crisis I need to solve after I read some at least one rumor and make sure I'm really awake and not just dreaming I am.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Great posts full of excellent advice well worth heeding and perspectives worth thinking about from @GrumpyMom and from the ever reliable @mscriv who wrote most perceptively about how and why the OP - @StephenCampbell - is falling to recognise - or accept - his wife's boundaries without seeking to dismantle or circumvent them.

 

[rdowns]

I'm very clear that we need to not talk about my mom for a while, I've been wanting to do that. And I am not concerned with my mom's feelings, or what she's thinking, etc. Even if I learned that she's been crying every day since the ban started, I really wouldn't care that much. My marriage almost fell apart because of her. I need to focus on my family, and if she's crying it's really not a priority of mine to care about it right now.

No, your marriage is falling apart because of you.

 

[A.Goldberg]

No, your marriage is falling apart because of you.

Oy Vey. Here we go again.
[doublepost=1462807779][/doublepost]

Okay I get it!... So the thing I need to do is to just say to her "I'm on your side, my mom never has to visit if you're not comfortable with it" etc, and the conversations would then go really smoothly, and pretty quickly she'd stop bringing it up probably.

No. You need to show through ACTION. That's the primary key. If your wife doesn't trust you she's not going to listen to the words you say. Everytime you break a boundary you set (i.e trying to renegotiate terms of mom-ban) a little bit more trust will be chipped away.

Reassurance with words helps but only if you have the actions to back it up.

Do you know anyone who has continuously said one thing and done another? After a while how much do you listen to them and believe their excuses for not following through with their commitments?

 

[StephenCampbell]

Oy Vey. Here we go again.
[doublepost=1462807779][/doublepost]

No. You need to show through ACTION. That's the primary key. If your wife doesn't trust you she's not going to listen to the words you say. Everytime you break a boundary you set (i.e trying to renegotiate terms of mom-ban) a little bit more trust will be chipped away.

Reassurance with words helps but only if you have the actions to back it up.

Do you know anyone who has continuously said one thing and done another? After a while how much do you listen to them and believe their excuses for not following through with their commitments?

I am showing through action. I haven't been trying to renegotiate anything. I've actually reassured her in the last day that the ban may end up longer than six months, and that it's going to be however long I need to really become a man and sever any unhealthy bonds with my mom.
[doublepost=1462809178][/doublepost]

No, your marriage is falling apart because of you.

I can agree with that, but my wife feels a lot of resentment towards my mom because of the fact that she raised me to have this intense loyal bond with her that resulted in me not standing by my wife's side. I also understand why she would feel that way. And she has also agreed that ultimately as an adult I am responsible for my actions.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

…….

To clarify, she was the one who brought up the subject again a couple days ago, and it's actually pretty sad because she brought it up in a happy "now I can talk about this without stress because I know you're on my side" kind of way, and then I went and started pushing for visits more than she had agreed to, once the six months are over.

The difficulty for me is that from the beginning of this I have felt like she is being unreasonable in terms of my mom, unreasonable in how much she hates her, etc. I know I'm wrong on that, but it's the way my feelings were! I couldn't help it. So when I end up pushing again for more visitation rights for my mom, I feel like I'm merely saying "okay so can you be more reasonable now and just let the poor woman see her grandchild?"

When I push everything out of my mind except for "just be loyal to your wife, go with her feelings" then I feel pretty stable, but inevitably I may end up having feelings that the situation is not fair. I try to remind myself that she has felt neglected for so many months, but that doesn't always help, because I feel like she was being unreasonable in feeling neglected, and that there shouldn't have been a problem with me wanting my mom to be able to see her grandchild regularly. I'm not saying I believe this, I'm just explaining the way my feelings tend to go. This is what I'm dealing with internally, and I don't always know what to believe.

The very fact that you have used the word 'unreasonable' - three times - in this post to describe, what, clearly, your inner self really thinks your wife's position is, is revealing.

You don't think you are unreasonable, and you don't think your mother is unreasonable; despite all of the excellent advice you have received from a plethora of people here, your default position is to reconcile your wife with your mother by dismantling, disrespecting and eroding your wife's explicitly stated boundaries.

In common with @GrumpyMom, and others, I get the sense that you are parsing these posts in the hope of finding the sort of advice which would allow you to confront you wife with proof of how 'unreasonable' she has been, so that you can persuade her to accommodate your desire for a reconciliation with your mother.

Now: To reiterate: The first thing is that this is not an issue between your wife and your mother, however much you try to reframe it in this terms.

It is, however, an issue between you and your mother, and - as a result - it has also become an issue between you and your wife.

Of course, she will find it hard to trust you; by your behaviour you have made it clear that her stated wishes and her preferred boundaries are up for re-negotiation at any time; above all, you have made it clear that these boundaries and wishes do not matter, as least they mater little when the issue of what is convenient for you and your mother's needs are set against it.

You need to show your wife - as both a wife, and as the mother of your young child - that her stated wishes, boundaries, and preferences are what govern your conduct over the coming months.

 

[StephenCampbell]

The very fact that you have used the word 'unreasonable' - three times - in this post to describe, what, clearly, your inner self really thinks your wife's position is, is revealing.

You don't think you are unreasonable, and you don't think your mother is unreasonable; despite all of the excellent advice you have received from a plethora of people here, your default position is to reconcile your wife with your mother by dismantling, disrespecting and eroding your wife's explicitly stated boundaries.

In common with @GrumpyMom, and others, I get the sense that you are parsing these posts in the hope of finding the sort of advice which would allow you to confront you wife with proof of how 'unreasonable' she has been, so that you can persuade her to accommodate your desire for a reconciliation with your mother.

Now: To reiterate: The first thing is that this is not an issue between your wife and your mother, however much you try to reframe it in this terms.

It is, however, an issue between you and your mother, and - as a result - it has also become an issue between you and your wife.

Of course, she will find it hard to trust you; by your behaviour you have made it clear that her stated wishes and her preferred boundaries are up for re-negotiation at any time; above all, you have made it clear that these boundaries and wishes do not matter, as least they mater little when the issue of what is convenient for you and your mother's needs are set against it.

You need to show your wife - as both a wife, and as the mother of your young child - that her stated wishes, boundaries, and preferences are what govern your conduct over the coming months.

Yes. Agreed. As I've said before, I come across as if I'm trying to gather evidence that my wife is unreasonable, in order to hear what I need to hear, in order to get as much clarity as possible about why and how she is not being unreasonable. This thread has been invaluable to me.

 

[butterfly2]

Grown adults sit and discuss the situation hash it out!

 

[A.Goldberg]

I am showing through action. I haven't been trying to renegotiate anything. I've actually reassured her in the last day that the ban may end up longer than six months, and that it's going to be however long I need to really become a man and sever any unhealthy bonds with my mom.

Not to try and argue here but you did say this the other day after talking about instituting the 6m ban (see below). This is what I meant (and I believe others) mentioned as renegotiating the terms of your agreement:

"Then today she started bringing up the issue of my mom's visits again (she later admitted it was a big mistake), and in response I started talking about how we could arrange for there to be times where I spend time with our daughter and my mom, without my wife having to be involved so she doesn't have to deal with my mom."

Regardless, I'm sure in seeing and therapist and taking small steps your wife will recognize you're trying, which means a lot. So keep moving in the right direction.
[doublepost=1462811871][/doublepost]

Yes. Agreed. As I've said before, I come across as if I'm trying to gather evidence that my wife is unreasonable, in order to hear what I need to hear, in order to get as much clarity as possible about why and how she is not being unreasonable. This thread has been invaluable to me.

Just an observation here, do with it what you please. When you are met with blunt confrontation of your behavior and thoughts (especially from women members) in this thread you agree with them. Then shortly thereafter you contradict what you previously agreed with. Maybe a defense mechanism to diffuse the tension you feel? I'm not you and reading some of these responses make tense. My point is if you do this with your wife, agree then condradict (say one thing and do another), it will quickly deteriorate trust.

Accept you are the problem ---> revert to mom is the problem ---> agree you are the problem when confronted ---> back to blaming your mom for marital issues m

You say thoughts and actions are congruent --> You attempt to reneg private visitations ---> you say you haven't reneg anything ---> then you agree again?

If you go through the thread again you might start picking up on these patterns.

 

[mscriv]

A couple of books comes to mind that could be a beneficial read for you @StephenCampbell. I hate recommending books as rarely are they in themselves a solution. However, I hope you could read the book and work with someone to process the material, apply key principles, and gain accountability for your progress.

Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

Having clear boundaries is essential to a healthy, balanced lifestyle. A boundary is a personal property line that marks those things for which we are responsible. In other words, boundaries define who we are and who we are not. Boundaries impact all areas of our lives: Physical boundaries help us determine who may touch us and under what circumstances -- Mental boundaries give us the freedom to have our own thoughts and opinions -- Emotional boundaries help us to deal with our own emotions and disengage from the harmful, manipulative emotions of others -- Spiritual boundaries help us to distinguish God's will from our own and give us renewed awe for our Creator -- Often, Christians focus so much on being loving and unselfish that they forget their own limits and limitations. When confronted with their lack of boundaries, they ask:

- Can I set limits and still be a loving person?
- What are legitimate boundaries?
- What if someone is upset or hurt by my boundaries?
- How do I answer someone who wants my time, love, energy, or money?
- Aren't boundaries selfish?
- Why do I feel guilty or afraid when I consider setting boundaries?

Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend offer biblically-based answers to these and other tough questions, showing us how to set healthy boundaries with our parents, spouses, children, friends, co-workers, and even ourselves.

Boundaries in Marriage by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

Learn when to say yes and when to say no--to your spouse and to others--to make the most of your marriage Only when a husband and wife know and respect each other’s needs, choices, and freedom can they give themselves freely and lovingly to one another. Boundaries are the “property lines” that define and protect husbands and wives as individuals. Once they are in place, a good marriage can become better, and a less-than-satisfying one can even be saved. Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend, counselors and authors of the award-winning best-seller Boundaries, show couples how to apply the 10 laws of boundaries that can make a real difference in relationships. They help husbands and wives understand the friction points or serious hurts and betrayals in their marriage―and move beyond them to the mutual care, respect, affirmation, and intimacy they both long for. Boundaries in Marriage helps couples:

• Set and maintain personal boundaries and respect those of their spouse
• Establish values that form a godly structure and architecture for their marriage
• Protect their marriage from different kinds of “intruders”
• Work with a spouse who understands and values boundaries―or work with one who doesn’t

 

[lowendlinux]

OP there are times you need to stop thinking, stop talking, and start doing and I think that point has been reached. Just remember in your doing that your wife has just been through one of, if not the most traumatic things that a human can do. She's always on, not sleeping well nor much, so she shouldn't have to fight you at the same time she's trying to raise a baby. You haven't brought up whether she works or not so I'm assuming she's not so not only is she constantly exhausted she's completely dependent on you for absolutely everything. Right now your thoughts and feelings matter little you have one thing to do so be quiet and make that happen.

 

[5105973]

OP there are times you need to stop thinking, stop talking, and start doing and I think that point has been reached. Just remember in your doing that your wife has just been through one of, if not the most traumatic things that a human can do. She's always on, not sleeping well nor much, so she shouldn't have to fight you at the same time she's trying to raise a baby. You haven't brought up whether she works or not so I'm assuming she's not so not only is she constantly exhausted she's completely dependent on you for absolutely everything. Right now your thoughts and feelings matter little you have one thing to do so be quiet and make that happen.

Well said and on point. Let's hope he's off doing just that. I'm rooting for them both to make this work. It's not easy to break entrenched thought patterns but if the stakes are high enough and the person is self aware enough and disciplined and determined, it can be done. I've done it and so have many other people.