Thoughts on difficult family situation?

[A.Goldberg]

Actually, the prehistory - or backstory - is rather more nuanced than that. Some of the previous threads where he described this relationship at an earlier stage are - perhaps - worth taking a look at.

Yes, I skimmed a couple. If I'm not mistaken he was very attracted to this woman and was curious about proposing despite only having known her a short while. Despite his affection for this woman (not sure if it's the same one), he was lacking the confidence to commit to marriage at that time.

That situation to me all sounds very premature- break up with a girl, rebound with another, and experience a "honeymoon phase". Honestly, I see no need to rush into marriage. In my limited and biased observations, young men who are quick to propose do it out of fear that they will lose the girl somehow unless they lock them in.

Steve mentions in an old thread his GF at the time is afraid he cannot commit to him. I think it would be highly advantageous for Steve to reflect on his past relationships and honestly assess why they failed.

It's evident to me reading through some of these threads that the OP has a lot of insecurity, self doubt, and indecision. That probably has to do with self esteem and anxiety, and possibly even OCD.

Steve, if and when you go to therapy (which I would highly reccomend as this situation is not over), I think you will find that your own self doubt, insecurity, etc likely self sabatoge the health of your relationships.

Let me give an example. I have a friend who is extremely neurotic, 10x more than me and I consider myself pretty bad. My problem is I'm overly meticulous, a perfectionist, and never feel fully satisfied with my acheivements --and I'm way harder on myself than others- probably a result of how I was raised. His issue is self doubt. He is very charming and can be in a fantastic relationship with a great girl, but he incessantly questions whether the girl actually loves him and if she is cheating on him or is upset with him. And that insecurity creates mistrust, and that mistrust creates resentment for the girl. The his relationships go up in flames like clockwork, time and time again. I suspect you have themes of self sabatoge as a result commitment issues in your relationship history... and probably other areas of your life like school, works, hobbies, etc.

 

[rdowns]

Kind of late to the thread, and having read the backstory too, what a **** show. This marriage was doomed from the start.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I'm very aware that this doesn't get fixed in a day with some sweet words. I'm very much looking forward to the coming months, taking my family out on lots of fun outings, dates, etc, with my mom being totally out of the picture. We will reconnect completely.

The marriage came before the baby.

 

[Macky-Mac]

I'm very aware that this doesn't get fixed in a day with some sweet words. I'm very much looking forward to the coming months, taking my family out on lots of fun outings, dates, etc, with my mom being totally out of the picture. We will reconnect completely

It's going to take some serious work, so good luck with that....and you better get ready for a storm when your mother finds out she's banned

 

[StephenCampbell]

It's going to take some serious work, so good luck with that....and you better get ready for a storm when your mother finds out she's banned

My mom actually suggested, while we were at my parents house last week, that it might be better for my marriage if she were out of the picture. I felt slightly guilt-tripped at the time, but she seemed mostly sincere. And now she had no problem with the six-month ban idea. She said she agrees it's best. I'm not kidding. She does talk to her brother a lot and he helps and supports her, so I'm guessing that may be part of why she seemed so easygoing about it. But in any case, there you have it.

 

[ouimetnick]

I hate to be a dick, as I've had my own problems and still do (depression and all), but you really don't deserve someone like her. She's put up with your insecurities for so long and put up with being thrown in the backseat while you cozy up to your mom. It really does make you come across as weak and need mommy to help you and think for you.

This thread had lots of GREAT advice and you ignored every part of it and kept nagging your wife to change since you are too weak to own up to it. Your wife sounds like a strong woman and she deserves a man not a coward. Either pick your mom or chose your family. As much as I love my mom, I would be able to respect my future wife's wishes.

I'm not trying to come across as rude, but reading this thread and seeing how you ignored all of the wonderful advice and can't stick up for yourself, your wife, and child really sets me off. You committed to her, and now your child. Why did you commit if you have no intention of taking it seriously. The fact the it took your wife to threaten you with divorce shows how you kept flip flopping and couldn't take a stance. Your wife should have left with the baby and leave the drama behind.

 

[BeeGood]

I hear you completely. Let me ask you though, so do you not feel that there's any place for me to approach my wife and ask "Hey, I would really like my parents to have a close relationship with their granddaughter. Can you try to accommodate and accept them? It would make me happy if you could be happy with them having a close relationship with her."

I mean, she married me, promising to support me, make me happy, etc. Why is it unreasonable to want to give my parents the relatively close relationship with their granddaughter that they want?

I am playing devil's advocate here, and would love to hear your thoughts.

Dude...there is plenty of time for your parents to bond with your daughter.

Right now, your marriage is in a dangerous place. Your focus needs to be on mending the damage that YOU'VE done by elevating your moms needs above your wife's. Was your wife a little unreasonable? Yeah probably, but but she's guarding her feelings because they're raw from months of having them trampled.

Forget about what she's not doing for you. I know that's hard but you absolutely have to if you want to save your marriage. Mend the damage first, then work from their. And be fully committed to counseling.

This is not the time to be looking for her to do things for you when you've overdrawn the love bank account.

 

[Gregg2]

Not enough time to find the post quoted above: "...she married me, promising to ... make me happy..."

Wow! I've never heard that one in wedding vows. If that's your expectation, you're in for big trouble. To me, my marriage (38 years and counting) is all about me making her happy. It's got to be that way for both partners. Or as the Neil Diamond song goes, "It's not about you - It's not about me - Love is all about we" But especially, it's not about me. That's called being selfish.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Well, things have been pretty good the last week. She says that it's going to take time for her to trust me, etc, but the six-month ban is securely in place, and that has been having a positive impact.

Then today she started bringing up the issue of my mom's visits again (she later admitted it was a big mistake), and in response I started talking about how we could arrange for there to be times where I spend time with our daughter and my mom, without my wife having to be involved so she doesn't have to deal with my mom.

Only problem with that is that right now she doesn't trust me to adequately protect our daughter while spending time with just her and my mom. And furthermore, she said that since she's already willing to see my mom for one day each month, and be polite to her, etc, that I shouldn't be trying to find ways to have my mom see our daughter even more. She said that arrangements where the mom would be absent from a dad/daughter/grandma visit would be situations where the mom would be refusing to see her mother-in-law altogether. But since she is willing to see my mom once a month, she says that should be enough and that I shouldn't try to schedule additional times with just me and our daughter and my mom. She says I simply need to listen to what she's saying and heed her basic needs.

This is a point where I'm getting stuck again. Why would it be so unreasonable to have times when I see my mom and spend time with her and my daughter? Wouldn't that be a reasonable way for my mom to be able to have more of a relationship with her granddaughter, without infringing on my wife's 'basic needs'? She wouldn't have to see my mom.

That's when my wife says something to this effect: "We know that if your mom said that she's too busy to come more than once a month, and that she's perfectly happy not seeing her granddaughter more than once a month, that you would have no problem with it, and you would be happy too. You don't have a personal need for your mom to see our daughter more than once a month, you're only trying to arrange that because of her feelings and you're trying to take care of her and make her happy."

It is true that if my mom were happy with one visit a month, that I would be happy too. But my mom would prefer much more than that. Is there someplace it says that it's a sin to care about your mom's feelings? Why couldn't I arrange for her to see our daughter and me at one other point each month, without my wife having to be present? I'm not asking my wife to get along with my mom or be friends with her.

My wife says that my desire to set up such additional visits is more proof that I'm still trying to take care of my mom and her feelings ahead of and at the expense of my wife's feelings. But I don't see why I couldn't both be putting my wife's feelings first, and also arranging that kind of visit and telling her "you don't have to see my mom," etc.

She says that anyone who comments on this would need to understand the "full context" and how the way my mom raised me could be classified as emotionally abusive in many ways, and so she is concerned about her spending too much time with our daughter on those grounds as well.

Thoughts?

 

[kch50428]

Thoughts?

You're not going to get the help you need in this space.

 

[Clix Pix]

Well, things have been pretty good the last week. She says that it's going to take time for her to trust me, etc, but the six-month ban is securely in place, and that has been having a positive impact.

Then today she started bringing up the issue of my mom's visits again (she later admitted it was a big mistake), and in response I started talking about how we could arrange for there to be times where I spend time with our daughter and my mom, without my wife having to be involved so she doesn't have to deal with my mom.

Only problem with that is that right now she doesn't trust me to adequately protect our daughter while spending time with just her and my mom. And furthermore, she said that since she's already willing to see my mom for one day each month, and be polite to her, etc, that I shouldn't be trying to find ways to have my mom see our daughter even more. She said that arrangements where the mom would be absent from a dad/daughter/grandma visit would be situations where the mom would be refusing to see her mother-in-law altogether. But since she is willing to see my mom once a month, she says that should be enough and that I shouldn't try to schedule additional times with just me and our daughter and my mom. She says I simply need to listen to what she's saying and heed her basic needs.

This is a point where I'm getting stuck again. Why would it be so unreasonable to have times when I see my mom and spend time with her and my daughter? Wouldn't that be a reasonable way for my mom to be able to have more of a relationship with her granddaughter, without infringing on my wife's 'basic needs'? She wouldn't have to see my mom.

That's when my wife says something to this effect: "We know that if your mom said that she's too busy to come more than once a month, and that she's perfectly happy not seeing her granddaughter more than once a month, that you would have no problem with it, and you would be happy too. You don't have a personal need for your mom to see our daughter more than once a month, you're only trying to arrange that because of her feelings and you're trying to take care of her and make her happy."

It is true that if my mom were happy with one visit a month, that I would be happy too. But my mom would prefer much more than that. Is there someplace it says that it's a sin to care about your mom's feelings? Why couldn't I arrange for her to see our daughter and me at one other point each month, without my wife having to be present? I'm not asking my wife to get along with my mom or be friends with her.

My wife says that my desire to set up such additional visits is more proof that I'm still trying to take care of my mom and her feelings ahead of and at the expense of my wife's feelings. But I don't see why I couldn't both be putting my wife's feelings first, and also arranging that kind of visit and telling her "you don't have to see my mom," etc.

She says that anyone who comments on this would need to understand the "full context" and how the way my mom raised me could be classified as emotionally abusive in many ways, and so she is concerned about her spending too much time with our daughter on those grounds as well.

Thoughts?

Well......my thoughts are that this marriage isn't going to last even another year......

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well, things have been pretty good the last week. She says that it's going to take time for her to trust me, etc, but the six-month ban is securely in place, and that has been having a positive impact.

Then today she started bringing up the issue of my mom's visits again (she later admitted it was a big mistake), and in response I started talking about how we could arrange for there to be times where I spend time with our daughter and my mom, without my wife having to be involved so she doesn't have to deal with my mom.

Only problem with that is that right now she doesn't trust me to adequately protect our daughter while spending time with just her and my mom. And furthermore, she said that since she's already willing to see my mom for one day each month, and be polite to her, etc, that I shouldn't be trying to find ways to have my mom see our daughter even more. She said that arrangements where the mom would be absent from a dad/daughter/grandma visit would be situations where the mom would be refusing to see her mother-in-law altogether. But since she is willing to see my mom once a month, she says that should be enough and that I shouldn't try to schedule additional times with just me and our daughter and my mom. She says I simply need to listen to what she's saying and heed her basic needs.

This is a point where I'm getting stuck again. Why would it be so unreasonable to have times when I see my mom and spend time with her and my daughter? Wouldn't that be a reasonable way for my mom to be able to have more of a relationship with her granddaughter, without infringing on my wife's 'basic needs'? She wouldn't have to see my mom.

That's when my wife says something to this effect: "We know that if your mom said that she's too busy to come more than once a month, and that she's perfectly happy not seeing her granddaughter more than once a month, that you would have no problem with it, and you would be happy too. You don't have a personal need for your mom to see our daughter more than once a month, you're only trying to arrange that because of her feelings and you're trying to take care of her and make her happy."

It is true that if my mom were happy with one visit a month, that I would be happy too. But my mom would prefer much more than that. Is there someplace it says that it's a sin to care about your mom's feelings? Why couldn't I arrange for her to see our daughter and me at one other point each month, without my wife having to be present? I'm not asking my wife to get along with my mom or be friends with her.

My wife says that my desire to set up such additional visits is more proof that I'm still trying to take care of my mom and her feelings ahead of and at the expense of my wife's feelings. But I don't see why I couldn't both be putting my wife's feelings first, and also arranging that kind of visit and telling her "you don't have to see my mom," etc.

She says that anyone who comments on this would need to understand the "full context" and how the way my mom raised me could be classified as emotionally abusive in many ways, and so she is concerned about her spending too much time with our daughter on those grounds as well.

Thoughts?

Three thoughts occur.

The first is the obvious one: You had - very reluctantly - negotiated an agreement of sorts concerning these matters with your wife, negotiations which belatedly acknowledged the strength of her feelings on this subject only when she threatened to leave you.

Why must you return to this subject matter now? Can you not leave it alone? Why not accept a six month ban (on your mother visiting or playing an active role in your daughter's life and yours) and drop the subject completely for six months?

Secondly, if you persist in raising this matter, especially when your wife has made clear just how strongly she feels on this matter, you may run the risk of torpedoing your marriage.

Thirdly, is your wife aware that your every thought - and her every reservation - is a topic under discussion on an internet forum?

 

[shinji]

That's when my wife says something to this effect: "We know that if your mom said that she's too busy to come more than once a month, and that she's perfectly happy not seeing her granddaughter more than once a month, that you would have no problem with it, and you would be happy too. You don't have a personal need for your mom to see our daughter more than once a month, you're only trying to arrange that because of her feelings and you're trying to take care of her and make her happy."

It is true that if my mom were happy with one visit a month, that I would be happy too. But my mom would prefer much more than that. Is there someplace it says that it's a sin to care about your mom's feelings? Why couldn't I arrange for her to see our daughter and me at one other point each month, without my wife having to be present? I'm not asking my wife to get along with my mom or be friends with her.

My wife says that my desire to set up such additional visits is more proof that I'm still trying to take care of my mom and her feelings ahead of and at the expense of my wife's feelings. But I don't see why I couldn't both be putting my wife's feelings first, and also arranging that kind of visit and telling her "you don't have to see my mom," etc.

She says that anyone who comments on this would need to understand the "full context" and how the way my mom raised me could be classified as emotionally abusive in many ways, and so she is concerned about her spending too much time with our daughter on those grounds as well.

Thoughts?

She wants you to genuinely agree that your mom is toxic and care about the effect it has on your child and the rest of the family. Instead, you're simply placating whoever threatens you, the most recent case being your wife's use of the divorce nuclear option. Giving in isn't the same as actually taking a stand.

Also, nowhere in here do we hear what you want. It's just, "my mom says this," and, "my wife says that." You're allowed to have your own opinion, too. And if you did start therapy this week, then that's really something that you should work on because nothing can really change without that.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

She wants you to genuinely agree that your mom is toxic and care about the effect it has on your child and the rest of the family. Instead, you're simply placating whoever threatens you, the most recent case being your wife's use of the divorce nuclear option. Giving in isn't the same as actually taking a stand.

Also, nowhere in here do we hear what you want. It's just, "my mom says this," and, "my wife says that." You're allowed to have your own opinion, too. And if you did start therapy this week, then that's really something that you should work on because nothing can really change without that.

Ah, @shinji, actually, we did hear what the OP 'wants' or would like.

He wanted his wife to accept that his mother would have an active and ongoing role and presence in their lives, above all, in the life of the young grandchild, and, until his wife threatened him with the nuclear option of divorce, he was reluctant to accept the strength of his wife's feelings on this subject.

 

[shinji]

Ah, @shinji, actually, we did hear what the OP 'wants' or would like.

He wanted his wife to accept that his mother would have an active and ongoing role and presence in their lives, above all, in the life of the young grandchild, and, until his wife threatened him with the nuclear option of divorce, he was reluctant to accept the strength of his wife's feelings on this subject.

That's actually what his mom wants, and he's just echoing it as if it were his own thought. He'd be happy with as little contact as his mom is willing to concede to, which means it's ultimately his mom's wishes- not his- that are in control. And deep down, that's really what is pissing off his wife.

 

[StephenCampbell]

That's actually what his mom wants, and he's just echoing it as if it were his own thought. He'd be happy with as little contact as his mom is willing to concede to, which means it's ultimately his mom's wishes- not his- that are in control. And deep down, that's really what is pissing off his wife.

Bingo. I think you have it. I'm just having trouble understanding why it's so bad to care about my mom's feelings to some degree, given that she does feel the way she does. Why can't I take some action to help her see her granddaughter more if that's what she wants and if what I want is to make her happy? (Not INSTEAD of or IN FRONT of my wife, but in addition to?) Remember, we're not talking about doing Anything to my wife, this is in the context of the suggestion of visits where my wife doesn't even have to see my mom.

In any case, as I said in my post a few posts up, my wife brought it up today, and quickly realized it was a mistake and that we need to drop it for a while. We've been having a really good time the past several days, and my wife's confidence in our marriage has been going up with each day that goes by that I don't plead to prematurely end the six-month ban.

 

[rdowns]

Thoughts?

Yes, you haven't listened to a thing said in this thread.

 

[Khalanad75]

Thoughts?

You and your wife need counseling, and quickly.

If she brought it up out of thin air (even if she admits it was a mistake) it generally means she is still very hurt and very pissed on the inside, no matter what she is displaying to you on the outside.

 

[shinji]

Bingo. I think you have it. I'm just having trouble understanding why it's so bad to care about my mom's feelings to some degree, given that she does feel the way she does. Why can't I take some action to help her see her granddaughter more if that's what she wants and if what I want is to make her happy? (Not INSTEAD of or IN FRONT of my wife, but in addition to?) Remember, we're not talking about doing Anything to my wife, this is in the context of the suggestion of visits where my wife doesn't even have to see my mom.

It's not bad to care. It's bad to let that guilt manipulate you into exposing your daughter to such a toxic woman, lest your mom do to her what she did to you. I think you realize you have an issue to work on. Do you want to risk passing that on to a child?

If your mom were only mildly narcissistic, or merely irritating rather than emotionally abusive, then you'd be perfectly justified to insist on some involvement from your parents. But that isn't what's going on here, and that's what your wife is talking about when she says "full context." Your mom sounds like she's so far outside the boundaries of healthy, that minimal contact is the best for everyone.

 

[Clix Pix]

Remember, you're not married to Mommy, you are married to a very different woman with her own ideas, thoughts and feelings....and who has undoubtedly come from a different background than yours. Your wife would be totally justified in at some point saying that she has had enough and leaves you, taking the child, and letting you and Mommy continue on with your own peculiar relationship.

Yes, I know this sounds harsh, and it is meant to be. i don't have any hope that it will wake you up any more than any of the other comments in this thread already have done. The reality seems to be that you are still more concerned about what your mother thinks and feels than you are about the feelings of the woman you married. That's sad. Therapy may help, but then again it might not....

 

[StephenCampbell]

She brought it up today expecting me to say "we'll do whatever you're comfortable with." She felt confident that I had already come far enough that we could talk about it with no problem. She didn't bring it up out of bitterness or anything.

I would also add that this entire thread has been extremely helpful for me and that I have been taking seriously what people have said. I keep pushing, playing devil's advocate, so that I can get as much clarity as possible in terms of how I should be. I really appreciate it! It does make a difference for me.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Your wife probably has a much more objective viewpoint than you do regarding your mother. Years and years with a narcissist, emotionally abusive/manipulative mother very well have impacts you're unaware of... Such as minimizing your own feelings (you seem to have expressed few here except confusion and fear) and feeling overly responsible for pleasing her.

You've talked about procuring a therapist, how is that coming? I think solidifying a therapist will further show your wife you're willing to take action.

You can't make a deal with your WIFE (no mom for 6 months), then later try and negotiate alternative terms. That's now how it works.

You wish your mom would be okay not visiting as much. If you haven't noticed, that's evidently not the reality you are lucky enough to be in. Stop worrying about your moms feelings, be concerned with your wife's, and try to start getting in touch with YOUR OWN feelings independent of "what your mom will think".

Maybe you are more committed to your mom than your wife and child. Maybe you can't accept shutting out your mother/birth family. And maybe your second guessing this marraige from the start is indicative of your actual feelings regarding the woman you married. I don't know, I really don't, but I'm not going to perpetuate a fantasy.

As @Scepticalscribe pointed out it seems risky to talk about your marraige online like this, assuming your name is S.C and your wife is not a neo-Luddite. You may want to think about requesting a name change if that's the case.

 

[StephenCampbell]

S.C. is not my real name. And, my wife knows very well that I'm having this conversation here, though she has not read any of it. She also has conversations online to get feedback and advice about this situation.

I never second guessed this marriage. I don't know where anyone got that idea. I second guessed whether I wanted to be with her while we were dating, but only for reasons which are very complicated and not worth getting into here. The point is that once I proposed to her there was no doubt or second guessing after I made that decision.

 

[mobilehaathi]

I love second guessed whether I wanted to be with her while we were dating, but only for reasons which are very complicated and not worth getting into here.

Hey, maybe it is relevant; we'll never know if you don't share.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I did see a therapist last week, but he wasn't very good. I'm trying one more session with him this week, and if it doesn't get better, I will be looking for someone else.

Today was much better than yesterday, and she even wrote me an email this evening expressing her feelings about my parents, and prefaced it by saying that she feels it's important for her to share these feelings with me now that she feels like I will finally listen.

She wrote about how she feels that they've been trying to get in between us, threatening our marriage, insulting her the minute she stands in the way of them getting what they want, etc. I was in complete agreement with everything she wrote, and I told her that. I reassured her that we're on the same page and that I am establishing appropriate boundaries with my parents, and will be VERY harsh with them if they ever again say anything that seems to want to undermine our marriage.

When we were visiting them a couple weeks ago, at one point my mom said something like "I'm really worried about you. I don't know if this marriage can work out." In response I said something like "**** you, who the **** do you think you are? What the **** is the matter with you? Get the **** out of here," and she then apologized immediately and never said anything like that again. So I have already practiced the appropriate response to something like that, and I told my wife about that instance and assured her that I would be that harsh again with either of my parents if need be.

We do have a difference in feeling about matters like this in general, which came up in the course of this conversation, but did not cause a great deal of strife. She feels that if someone says something like "I don't know if this marriage can last" (especially if they were at the wedding and vowed to support the marriage), that it would make sense to just cut them out completely. I feel differently, and from what I've gathered from our surrounding community, I'm not alone. People have a sense of extended family, of making relationships work as best they can. They don't think of extended family as strangers, they don't just exile them from their life completely on the same grounds that they would a random stranger who showed up and behaved that way.

That's how I feel, that's what my orientation is like regarding in-laws, etc. I spoke to a woman at my church whose husband's parents pulled the same thing, telling him that maybe she's not right for him. She said that he put his foot down with them very strongly, but of course they're going to continue having relationship with them. So I told my wife that story as an example, and I think she understands that this is more a difference in attitude rather than evidence that I'm not loyal to her. What do you think? Am I right that generally people think of in-laws and extended family as an inevitable part of their lives, and simply try to manage it as best as possible?