Thoughts on difficult family situation?

[Scepticalscribe]

I have a number of points that I wish to make, and, like @lowendlinux, I'll admit that my patience is becoming sorely tried, not to mention severely tested.

I will start with a few quotes from the OP, @StephenCampbell, and let us dissect what has been written here.

Undoubtedly something in me is still strongly wired to feel more like I belong with my parents than with my wife. Day to day right now I feel great, but something still isn't right with me. I'm terrified of them getting older, I'm terrified of running out of time to really connect with them. I'm terrified of how much my wife hates my mom, and of the feeling that I'll never be able to really connect with my mom without my wife feeling like I'm betraying her. I'm terrified of the feeling I'll get after my mom visits and my wife is in a bad mood, and I see my daughter starting to feel like she doesn't like my mom because of it, and my wife says that she can't help getting in a bad mood when she's around my mom.

Read what you have written. The verb 'terrified' appears four times. Ye gods.

This word, verb, is stronger than 'a bit bothered', 'concerned', frightened', or 'worried'. This is a veritable verb to inspire terror. A primitive, primal verb, one that suggests atavistic emotions.

Nowhere, not once is your posts, have you written of your wife with affection, love, warmth, respect, humour. Above all, not with respect.

Instead, let us now put forward a few quotes which give a flavour of the adjectives and verbs - all of them negative - which attach themselves to your wife when you write about her.

and right now I still have a strong connection to my parents which I feel is greatly threatened by my wife.

'Greatly threatened'…...

and have a stubborn wife who caused it all by not being willing to just get along nicely with my mom. I'm so afraid of my daughter disliking my mom, and me feeling great resentment towards my wife because of it.

'Great resentment'….'stubborn wife'……

[doublepost=1463036509][/doublepost]With all of this being said, my personal wish is that my wife could just adopt the same attitude I have towards my mom: That's the way she is, she can't help it, just ignore her if you find what she's doing to be rude or inappropriate.

Your professed wish. Your personal wish. If only she would see things your way…..

……...
Anyways, this morning my wife has been saying that she needs to have control over some money, and that the traditional housewife role doesn't work for her when she doesn't trust me. She didn't think it would be a big deal, but it was to me, because she was saying she doesn't trust me and that she basically has to take a few steps away from me and establish an identity in the marriage that she never thought she'd need. It was very upsetting. ….

'Upsetting' that she wants her own identity? "An identity in the marriage that she never thought that she would need"? Really? Would you care to ask yourself why this might be so?

'Very upsetting' that she wants access to money without having to ask permission for it?

but I was sort of saddened this morning with what she said about wanting control over some money, etc, not because of the nature of that in itself, but because of what it means about our relationship and her lack of trust towards me. She was super happy to be a housewife, that's what she wanted, and she never felt the need to arrange things such that she could be prepared to leave me. Now she does. It's just really depressing, .

So, this is 'just really depressing' for you, that she wishes to have access to money independently?

In terms of not mentioning my feelings for my wife or baby, this is all I can say about that. I love them both very much, I regularly buy gifts for my wife, I pay all the bills, pay her student loans, take them on outings regularly. This attachment I have to my mom and to my family of origin is so strong that it often overwhelms everything else, and it would do so regardless of who my wife was. .

You pay the bills, but you control the finances. You get to say how the money is spent, much as a parent does for a child. The child asks, but they are not an equal party to the disbursement of the finances of the arrangement.

She just wants me to respect her feelings.

Clearly, something that presents a considerable challenge for you. Is that so hard to do? That is what is at the kernel of all this.

Anyway, this is the key quote to be remembered. She just wants you to respect her feelings, - and acknowledge that in deeds, not solely in words, and, if you continue to fail to do so, I suspect that your marriage may not - and will not - last.

Without respect, any relationship - be it personal or professional - is doomed.

…...and then feeling resentment towards my wife. It'll take the effort of every muscle in my body not to say to my wife "Come on! She did so well! Don't hold that one tiny slip-up against her so strongly! She wasn't even trying to be rude!" At least that's how I feel now.

In all honesty I feel like my wife responds unreasonably to my mom's quirks and social ineptitudes, but I guess there has also been evidence that the more my wife feels like I'm on her side, the less she gets angered by my mom.

And again. "Unreasonably". "Feeling resentment towards my wife". The emotions expressed towards your wife are all negative, exclusively so. In every post. In every, single post.

We do already only have one bank account, and it is a joint account, and she has her own debit card with her name on it. What she was talking about was having money that I don't have any access to. But I think she's okay with the idea of just feeling like she has more of a right with our money than she has been so far. Feeling like if she really wants something, that she has a right to buy it if we can afford it.

This might be a good time to mention that I go through phases in my life of being obsessed with different things, and during each phase I throw a great deal of my expendable income at that thing, be it Blu-Rays that I'm collecting, collectible cards, etc. I have spent thousands of dollars on stuff like that that I collect, just over the past year, and I complain when my wife wants to buy something that costs even $100. I have gotten a lot better at this recently, but in any case, that's part of the whole money thing she was talking about. She wants our expendable income to be split more evenly between us, which is reasonable.

Oh dear. You spend thousands on yourself, and whinge, whine and complain when she wants to buy something that costs $100?

And, why, might I ask, would you wish to behave in this manner?

Words such as 'controlling' come to mind, as do others which suggest 'encouraging a state of dependency'.

And, why shouldn't she ask for money that you don't have any access to? Is she an adult, or a dependent child? Why shouldn't she 'feel' that she has 'more of a right with our money than she has so far'?

This voice inside me still says "your wife is asking you to be mean and unreasonable towards your mom. All she wants is a relationship with her granddaughter. Your wife is standing in the way, your wife is cold and unreasonable."

Again, those words. 'Cold'. 'Unreasonable'. And, 'mean'.

……..
Is my wife right? Is it impossible to ever free myself from my mom? I slept in the same room with her until I was 16 years old, I wasn't completely free from anxiety surrounding sleep until 18 or 19. When I was 12 years old I couldn't attend a band rehearsal without her present and sitting there through the entire thing, else I'd fear that I'd never see her again. One time when I was 10 or 11 I was going to go bowling with friends a fair distance from where we lived, and ended up not going because I panicked being apart from my mom. At age 15 my experience at an 8 week summer camp was completely ruined by my inability to have fun and function while being apart from my parents. I was extremely homesick, panicked really, and would call them every single day. Throughout my childhood there were also times where I was successfully able to play with friends and do things separate from my parents, but they were the exception.

A singularly disturbing post, when put alongside your compulsive and controlling tendencies.

Okay.

Again, @GrumpyMom, and @A.Goldberg have given you excellent advice.

Your thick skull, compulsive, controlling and obsessive tendencies, profoundly unhealthy and needy relationship with your mother, and utter absorption with yourself, mean that there are only two people whose views you even accept as valid when discussing this, or focussing on this, and they are, your mother and yourself.

You claim you hear, but you don't listen. In fact, I doubt that you are capable of listening or absorbing any of the good advice you have received here.

(Only one fatuous post suggested that your wife was not entirely within her rights and completely in the right in seeking to set boundaries on whatever role your mother is to play in your family. Every single other post said that your wife is entirely right.)

I have said before - and I will say it again: This is not a problem between your wife and your mother although you consistently and with an admirable and adamantine bloody-mindedness keep trying to persuade yourself that it is.

The problem relationship is the one that lies between yourself and your mother. Your wife has nothing to do with it, and it is hugely unfair to her to try to make her a party to - or responsible for, as you are clearly trying to do - the completely dysfunctional relationship you have with your mother.

My view - for what it is worth - is that you do not see and have never seen your wife as someone who has the right to articulate a point of view, or take a position, that in any way serves to inconvenience you. You do not see her as a human being, with rights and responsibilities and an identity separate to yours, who is deserving of respect.

All of your posts, without exception, have made it perfectly clear that her dislike and detestation of your mother is a source of inconvenience and annoyance for you. Indeed, it is clear that you even dislike and resent your wife offering an opinion that makes you uncomfortable, all of the adjectives that have accompanied references to her 'cold', 'unreasonable', 'stubborn' are negative.

At the same time, what is of interest is how your posts reference your own responses to her expressed feelings about your motor: You write that you found it all 'depressing', that your 'strong connection to (your) parents threatened by your wife', and you found it all 'very upsetting'. Your responses are the only thing that that matter, not the strength of her feelings. Not only do you not validate or support her feelings, you are annoyed with her because the fact that she has given voice to these feelings has made you 'depressed' and 'very upset'.

In one post, outrageously, you even admit that you think your wife 'caused it all by not being willing to get along with my mom', and try to get her - a young mother struggling with an infant - to take the blame for your warped relationship with your mother.

As usual, it is all about you, and only all about you, and never about how these matters might have had an impact on your wife (let alone your daughter).

Then, there are the finance issues. You begrudge small sums to your wife, get 'upset' and 'depressed' when she requests an independent source of income, spend a fortune on your own needs, and believe that she must be made accountable for every penny - or cent - she spends, as it is clear from your posts that you do not believe she should spend money without your prior approval.

I will tell you what I have come to think: I believe that - at a fundamental level - you do not remotely respect your wife, as a person, or as a wife. You do not see her as a human being with the right to express thoughts that may inconvenience you. She exists - in your mind - only as an adjunct to you. Her thoughts and feelings - when you don't like what you are hearing - are inconveniences to be dismissed and brushed aside.

Actually, I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the controlling, compulsive elements in your character mean that you have sought to replicate the controlling, dependent relationship you had with your mother, with your wife.

However, there is a difference and it is this: The only difference is that you seek to have your wife in the sort of position of utter and total dependency on you that you seem to still have experienced with your mother.

 

[5105973]

@Scepticalscribe as always, you are on point and insightful.

However as I go over in my mind the progression of this thread, I can't help wonder if this entire thing is real. I know as I was responding to each new post presenting a new revelation and a new development, I felt like I was being manipulated into giving up personal information and tested on how I would respond, as each response I made to each outrage heaped on the wife was met with some "clarification" designed to elicit sympathy or understanding for SC. This could just be a legitimate progression of how a person with a real pathology responds to other people. Or it could be the methodology of a clinical study.

Stephen, if you're sincere I am truly sorry for making these comments. But as I said in a previous post, this IS the Internet. "Reality" is what we write of it. Which is the reason we all warn our children that the "kid" they are talking to in social media could be an adult predator.

I was on a robotics forum many years ago and due to the nature of AI and the continuing multitudes of questions experts have on the human response to artificial intelligence, we were heavily spammed with people posing as members but interacting with legitimate members in a way clearly designed to elicit "honest, unrehearsed" responses for data for their studies. It was a real pain for the forum owners. I hate to disparage students working toward advanced degrees. Most were honest and disclosed their identities and purposes, but we always got enough people with murky ethics to consider it a problem.

At any rate, Stephen, legit or not, your behavior IS heavily manipulative of everyone you come in contact with, even as you try to seek help. So if this is all real, please know you're becoming your Mom, version 2.0 and so please continue seeking help from pros qualified to deal with everything and anything you can throw at them. And not some caffeine deprived mom like me. I'm fully capable of offering sisterly advice and a sympathetic ear but we see clearly this all goes way beyond that.

If this is not real and some sort of experiment for a thesis, same deal, the behavior is very manipulative. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. There's a discernible pattern to your queries and responses, and how you progress your scenarios. Either way, further interaction between us isn't constructive and not healthy for me. I'm just here to wrap up my part in this thread with other folks here.

I still offer my prayers and best wishes from one human being to another in all that you do, provided it's in reference to activities to make yourself and your world better. I'm still open to reading updates. I'm just no longer open to putting myself in a position to be manipulated.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

@Scepticalscribe as always, you are on point and insightful.

However as I go over in my mind the progression of this thread, I can't help wonder if this entire thing is real. I know as I was responding to each new post presenting a new revelation and a new development, I felt like I was being manipulated into giving up personal information and tested on how I would respond, as each response I made to each outrage heaped on the wife was met with some "clarification" designed to elicit sympathy or understanding for SC. This could just be a legitimate progression of how a person with a real pathology responds to other people. Or it could be the methodology of a clinical study.

Stephen, if you're sincere I am truly sorry for making these comments. But as I said in a previous post, this IS the Internet. "Reality" is what we write of it. Which is the reason we all warn our children that the "kid" they are talking to in social media could be an adult predator.

I was on a robotics forum many years ago and due to the nature of AI and the continuing multitudes of questions experts have on the human response to artificial intelligence, we were heavily spammed with people posing as members but interacting with legitimate members in a way clearly designed to elicit "honest, unrehearsed" responses for data for their studies. It was a real pain for the forum owners. I hate to disparage students working toward advanced degrees. Most were honest and disclosed their identities and purposes, but we always got enough people with murky ethics to consider it a problem.

At any rate, Stephen, legit or not, your behavior IS heavily manipulative of everyone you come in contact with, even as you try to seek help. So if this is all real, please know you're becoming your Mom, version 2.0 and so please continue seeking help from pros qualified to deal with everything and anything you can throw at them. And not some caffeine deprived mom like me. I'm fully capable of offering sisterly advice and a sympathetic ear but we see clearly this all goes way beyond that.

If this is not real and some sort of experiment for a thesis, same deal, the behavior is very manipulative. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. There's a discernible pattern to your queries and responses, and how you progress your scenarios. Either way, further interaction between us isn't constructive and not healthy for me. I'm just here to wrap up my part in this thread with other folks here.

I still offer my prayers and best wishes from one human being to another in all that you do, provided it's in reference to activities to make yourself and your world better. I'm still open to reading updates. I'm just no longer open to putting myself in a position to be manipulated.

Ah, @GrumpyMom, I have read some of the OP's earlier threads. Unfortunately, I believe that this is real, and equally unfortunately, it is of a kind with them.

 

[5105973]

Ah, @GrumpyMom, I have read some of the OP's earlier threads. Unfortunately, I believe that this is real, and equally unfortunately, it is of a kind with them.

Acknowledged. Sorry to hear that. Damn.

Healthy well adjusted people can give advice until they turn blue but they can't fix/heal someone with a mental health problem or a serious psychological issue. Someone who is professionally trained and not personally connected and who can maintain professional detachment has to do that job. Even then, not all professionals are equal. I hope Stephen gets the best.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Everything I have said is true. And I would like to reiterate again, when I express all the feelings that seem problematic (feeling resentful towards my wife, etc), I am aware that they are problematic! I am saying "look at what I'm feeling, look at what a problem I have, what do I do?" I feel like that didn't sink in the last time I said it. I really am aware that my feelings are messed up. They are what they are, so I'm sharing them to let you all know how messed up they are, and try to get advice on how to reorient my thinking in a way where I would no longer feel resentful towards my wife or so attached to my mom.

Last night while I was at work my wife started sending me texts about how frustrated and angry she is thinking about everything that's happened. She sent text after text after text, and I began to get a panic attack. I almost had to leave work early. When I got home she actually seemed in good spirits and said "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give you a panic attack! I just have to express this stuff."

Then this morning we started talking about my mom's visits again, because she kept bringing it up and wanted to know if I would be okay with my mom never visiting again. She said "I need to know whether or not I'm wasting my time. If you will never be capable of respecting my feelings even if what I needed was to never have me or my daughter see your mom again, then I'm wasting my time."

I did have some difficulty with that and said that at that point we would probably go to couple's counseling to discuss options of visitation, options where my wife doesn't have to see my mom, etc. She said "The counselor probably wouldn't change how I feel. Are you going to be okay with me saying that your mom is not going to be a part of our life at all?"

In the end I said that yes, I would respect her feelings no matter what. And she then said that she probably won't feel the need to cut her out completely once I've had successful therapy and once the trust between us is rebuilt.

She said a lot of things like "Your mom emotionally abuses kids. Why would I want her spending time with my daughter?" I get really frustrated with that because it seems like everyone, universally acknowledges the fact that even an emotionally abusive person cannot have an abusive effect on a child that they see only once a month, when that child's home is stable and emotionally healthy. I told her that visits in the future will ONLY happen if the following conditions are met:

1. I have gone through successful therapy and feel confident that I am in an adult-to-adult relationship with my mom.
2. My wife's trust in me has been fully restored.
3. My wife feels comfortable with having my mom over for a visit.
4. My mom does not bring any of her issues into our home, and just behaves respectfully and plays nicely with our daughter.

She then said "Even a pedophile can play nicely with a child if they're being supervised!" "Your mom would have to go through therapy and actually work on her issues in order for me to feel comfortable."

I tried to express to her that I think it's okay for her to visit if we set the boundaries and manage the relationship such that her issues play no part in her relationship with us, at all. I think she half-agreed at that point.

But ultimately I thought really hard about the fact that this is all still very raw, and tried to just bring myself to say "yes, your feelings will be respected. We can ban her forever if you want. Whatever you want, whatever you're comfortable with," without worrying about the future. I more or less successfully did that in the end.

 

[kch50428]

Dude... with all due respect... you're not going to get the help you need here... get help off-line.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

….. And I would like to reiterate again, when I express all the feelings that seem problematic (feeling resentful towards my wife, etc), I am aware that they are problematic! I am saying "look at what I'm feeling, look at what a problem I have, what do I do?"

The problem you have now is not the problem you will have if you fail to listen to, heed, acknowledge, and respect, your wishes feelings and views.

I feel like that didn't sink in the last time I said it. I really am aware that my feelings are messed up. They are what they are, so I'm sharing them to let you all know how messed up they are, and try to get advice on how to reorient my thinking in a way where I would no longer feel resentful towards my wife or so attached to my mom.

And everyone here has reiterated that this is not your wife's problem, it is yours.

Do you really think it "didn't sink in" amongst those who have read, and contributed to, this thread?

What we think has not sunk in is an awareness that you are a married man, married to an adult woman (not a Stepford wife) with a young child, but someone who cannot see that his primary love, locus, and loyalty is to his original family unit and that his core identity is still derived from it, and who, thus, has difficulties with the fact that his wife has (perfectly legitimate) issues with this, and dislikes her expressing her concerns with these issues, as she, for her part, - naturally - would prefer that the new family is respected by the family of origin, and, clearly, it is not.

Listen to your wife. Take your head out of your own navel. Or other parts of your anatomy. Try to remember that This Is Not All About You.

Your wife and kid need your support, - they are - or ought to be - the drama of your life. Not only are you not giving support, you are behaving like an emotional vampire, endlessly demanding and draining, and narcissistic and needy, and insisting that every interaction, every encounter, every discussion, is All About You, your reactions, your relationships, your needs.

The narcissistic neediness that you are showing is deeply unattractive, very wearing, and utterly exhausting, and you are parasitically insisting that your wife make your needs and your messed up relationship with your mother the fulcrum of her life, at a time when she is the primary carer for a very small infant. That is monstrously selfish.

What do you do?

Support your wife, or accept that marriage is not for you.

Last night while I was at work my wife started sending me texts about how frustrated and angry she is thinking about everything that's happened. She sent text after text after text, and I began to get a panic attack. I almost had to leave work early. When I got home she actually seemed in good spirits and said "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give you a panic attack! I just have to express this stuff."

So, instead of acknowledging - allowing - and respecting the delayed and suppressed rage that your wife is now expressing, once again, you have diverted matters to yourself, and made this all about your panic attacks. Good grief.

Then this morning we started talking about my mom's visits again, because she kept bringing it up and wanted to know if I would be okay with my mom never visiting again. She said "I need to know whether or not I'm wasting my time. If you will never be capable of respecting my feelings even if what I needed was to never have me or my daughter see your mom again, then I'm wasting my time."

I did have some difficulty with that and said that at that point we would probably go to couple's counseling to discuss options of visitation, options where my wife doesn't have to see my mom, etc. She said "The counselor probably wouldn't change how I feel. Are you going to be okay with me saying that your mom is not going to be a part of our life at all?"

And are you?

In the end I said that yes, I would respect her feelings no matter what. And she then said that she probably won't feel the need to cut her out completely once I've had successful therapy and once the trust between us is rebuilt.

She said a lot of things like "Your mom emotionally abuses kids. Why would I want her spending time with my daughter?" I get really frustrated with that because it seems like everyone, universally acknowledges the fact that even an emotionally abusive person cannot have an abusive effect on a child that they see only once a month, when that child's home is stable and emotionally healthy. I told her that visits in the future will ONLY happen if the following conditions are met:

1. I have gone through successful therapy and feel confident that I am in an adult-to-adult relationship with my mom.
2. My wife's trust in me has been fully restored.
3. My wife feels comfortable with having my mom over for a visit.
4. My mom does not bring any of her issues into our home, and just behaves respectfully and plays nicely with our daughter.

She then said "Even a pedophile can play nicely with a child if they're being supervised!" "Your mom would have to go through therapy and actually work on her issues in order for me to feel comfortable."

I tried to express to her that I think it's okay for her to visit if we set the boundaries and manage the relationship such that her issues play no part in her relationship with us, at all. I think she half-agreed at that point.

But ultimately I thought really hard about the fact that this is all still very raw, and tried to just bring myself to say "yes, your feelings will be respected. We can ban her forever if you want. Whatever you want, whatever you're comfortable with," without worrying about the future. I more or less successfully did that in the end.

Look: From your self obsessed post, it is clear that you and your mother have treated your wife disgracefully badly, and have shown little consideration or respect for her, and I have no doubt, now that this has surfaced, she will need to work her anger out. This is a deeply rooted anger, as being shown an evident lack of respect is something that strikes at your core.

Please do not bring this back to how you feel; I would imagine that she is getting fed up with having to constantly reassure you. She has a young infant to care for; this should be your concern too.

What do you do? You need to reassure her that you actually see how she is feeling, and that you completely respect her feelings, and her right to express them.

No, I feel 'depressed/upset/panicked/resentful' - all of this is attempting to swing matters back to you, your feelings, your reactions, your perceptions, and undermining and invalidating hers.

There is a reason respect is something deemed of paramount importance in prisons, and in the mafia. I am not sure how many times I have to repeat that your wife feels disrespected, as a person, as a woman, as an adult, as a human being, as a mother.

Treating her with respect - and treating what she says she feels with respect - is the price of saving your marriage.

Insisting - as you do - on bringing everything - every single interaction - back to a tedious discussion about how you feel and what you experience is manipulative, and needy and narcissistic.

Godammit, the woman is a young mother, she needs support, not a needy self-absorbed husband with compulsive behaviours, controlling attitudes, and a warped relationship with his mother that he would probably prefer to preserve over his marriage.

Your wife doesn't need your problems on top of her own, let alone your mother's.

 

[StephenCampbell]

The problem you have now is not the problem you will have if you fail to listen to, heed, acknowledge, and respect, your wishes feelings and views.




And everyone here has reiterated that this is not your wife's problem, it is yours.

Do you really think it "didn't sink in" amongst those who have read, and contributed to, this thread?

What we think has not sunk in is an awareness that you are a married man, married to an adult woman (not a Stepford wife) with a young child, but someone who cannot see that his primary love, locus, and loyalty is to his original family unit and that his core identity is still derived from it, and who, thus, has difficulties with the fact that his wife has (perfectly legitimate) issues with this, and dislikes her expressing her concerns with these issues, as she, for her part, - naturally - would prefer that the new family is respected by the family of origin, and, clearly, it is not.

Listen to your wife. Take your head out of your own navel. Or other parts of your anatomy. Try to remember that This Is Not All About You.

Your wife and kid need your support, - they are - or ought to be - the drama of your life. Not only are you not giving support, you are behaving like an emotional vampire, endlessly demanding and draining, and narcissistic and needy, and insisting that every interaction, every encounter, every discussion, is All About You, your reactions, your relationships, your needs.

The narcissistic neediness that you are showing is deeply unattractive, very wearing, and utterly exhausting, and you are parasitically insisting that your wife make your needs and your messed up relationship with your mother the fulcrum of her life, at a time when she is the primary carer for a very small infant. That is monstrously selfish.

What do you do?

Support your wife, or accept that marriage is not for you.



So, instead of acknowledging - allowing - and respecting the delayed and suppressed rage that your wife is now expressing, once again, you have diverted matters to yourself, and made this all about your panic attacks. Good grief.



And are you?



Look: From your self obsessed post, it is clear that you and your mother have treated your wife disgracefully badly, and have shown little consideration or respect for her, and I have no doubt, now that this has surfaced, she will need to work her anger out. This is a deeply rooted anger, as being shown an evident lack of respect is something that strikes at your core.

Please do not bring this back to how you feel; I would imagine that she is getting fed up with having to constantly reassure you. She has a young infant to care for; this should be your concern too.

What do you do? You need to reassure her that you actually see how she is feeling, and that you completely respect her feelings, and her right to express them.

No, I feel 'depressed/upset/panicked/resentful' - all of this is attempting to swing matters back to you, your feelings, your reactions, your perceptions, and undermining and invalidating hers.

There is a reason respect is something deemed of paramount importance in prisons, and in the mafia. I am not sure how many times I have to repeat that your wife feels disrespected, as a person, as a woman, as an adult, as a human being, as a mother.

Treating her with respect - and treating what she says she feels with respect - is the price of saving your marriage.

Insisting - as you do - on bringing everything - every single interaction - back to a tedious discussion about how you feel and what you experience is manipulative, and needy and narcissistic.

Godammit, the woman is a young mother, she needs support, not a needy self-absorbed husband with compulsive behaviours, controlling attitudes, and a warped relationship with his mother than he would probably preserve over his marriage.

Your wife doesn't need your problems on top of her own, let alone your mother's.

Okay, I am 100% with you. My wife and I just went on a walk and she shared with me her concern that she'll never be able to be the loving, trusting woman that she once was. Her analogy was that if you keep piling on logs on a wagon, the stress becomes greater and greater, but if you start removing logs before the bottom of the wagon caves out, then you can still save the wagon. But if you pile them to the point that the wagon caves, then it's much, much harder to repair it. So she's saying that by getting to the "last straw" place and threatening to leave, the bottom of the wagon caved out, and she now feels "dead inside."

All I want to do right now is stand by her and support her and listen to her and be a good husband. I tell her that. She knows that that's my intention. But she called herself a "sacrificial lamb," lamenting the fact that it took a great emotional sacrifice on her part in order to inspire me to fix my issues. My issues were so deep rooted that nothing short of what happened could have inspired me to really take them on.

The only thing that causes me anxiety at the moment is the thought that it is too late to get my wife back, emotionally. She says these things that really freak me out. I ask her how I'm supposed to respond. She said "You don't have to respond. Just listen."

She says that now that I am actually listening to her, she feels the need to express a lot of that pent up anger and sadness, and that that's part of the process of moving forward.

I'm totally there for her now, just doing whatever I can to take care of her, and at the same time I'm really worried that she's slipping away from me anyway. She says "I already slipped away from you." And then she says that if I just keep doing what I'm doing she'll try to rebuild her trust in me.

I feel so sad and frustrated that I've brought our marriage to this place. I'm really angry at myself. I want to show my wife that I love her and care about her, but how am I supposed to do that when she doesn't trust me? And when she says she fears that she may never be able to really trust me again? Ugh.

I'm really doing everything I can at this point. I'm so sad and frustrated.

 

[kch50428]

Take the time you're expending here, and put it to use getting help offline.

 

[StephenCampbell]

Take the time you're expending here, and put it to use getting help offline.

I am. I am going to be finding a great psychotherapist.

 

[Jayderek]

Take the time you're expending here, and put it to use getting help offline.

I read through this entire thread the other day, and also read some more that the OP had started. He's being given WONDERFUL advice and it saddens me (and kind of angers me too) that all of it is being ignored.

His posts read like "oh, I KNOW...but.....[ paragraph after paragraph not addressing his issues ]

I wonder if it's not time to just close this thread as the help he needs is going to come from him hitting rock bottom when the eventual divorce happens? He needs heavy therapy and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some spectrum-level stuff going on here as well that he's just not aware of.

I feel so sorry for his wife and child...

 

[Khalanad75]

I also hope your wife is getting to chat with a therapist as well. From being in her spot in the past, it was a huge step in talking with a therapist for me to help start to rebuild the trust in my wife.

And the anger and lashing out.... you are just going to have to take it. When you crush the trust in a relationship of someone you have promised not to, it cuts very deep and hurts for a long time.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I also hope your wife is getting to chat with a therapist as well. From being in her spot in the past, it was a huge step in talking with a therapist for me to help start to rebuild the trust in my wife.

And the anger and lashing out.... you are just going to have to take it. When you crush the trust in a relationship of someone you have promised not to, it cuts very deep and hurts for a long time.

She says she's afraid that if she saw a therapist, she would end up divorcing me. But given what my commitment is at this time, and everything I have been doing to show her that commitment, I feel like the therapist would help her rebuild trust in me, as you said.

 

[Clix Pix]

Right now everything is pointing to her leaving and divorcing you, anyway....it's just a matter of time. Individual therapy for each of you as well as couples therapy for the two of you together might work, then again it might not.

 

[mobilehaathi]

She says she's afraid that if she saw a therapist, she would end up divorcing me.

She should.

 

[Khalanad75]

She says she's afraid that if she saw a therapist, she would end up divorcing me. But given what my commitment is at this time, and everything I have been doing to show her that commitment, I feel like the therapist would help her rebuild trust in me, as you said.

I would still suggest her to go talk with someone.

And it won't be anything quick. It took me a good 2 1/2 years to fully trust my wife again, but we had already been together for 14 years when we went through our rift. I at least had a much bigger foundation to our relationship to want to build that trust back.

 

[ProjectManager101]

I realize it is kind of awkward to ask this question on a MacRumors forum, but this forum is full of normal people who belong to normal society, and so I feel like I could get some useful reflection on this situation here.

My wife and I have a 7 month old baby. My wife really hates my mother. My mother does have issues, and many of the tell-tale signs of a narcissist.

My wife is okay with my mom coming to visit us sometimes, but wants to limit the frequency and duration of the visits, because she hates my mom.

My mom is really excited about the baby, it's her first grandchild. I want to let her come visit on a fairly regular basis.

Given how my wife feels about my mom, what is reasonable for me to suggest in terms of how often we should have my mom over for a visit?

Your wife is now first and she is the mom of your baby.
Your mom needs to grow up, take some therapy, find out what her issue is.
Narcissistic mothers do that... create problems to call the attention.
And I am telling you this because I had to put distance with my own mother, she had this sick game between me and my brother and sister. My mom is super nice but, and pay attention to this, did your mother had some sort of problem with your dad? was she neglected? was she neglected as a child? divorced parents?
Because usually when a woman had some sort of trauma (it does not have to be as bad as sexual abuse, it can be a mild experience that got a wrong interpretation) usually they develop behaviors to call the attention, can be good behaviors or bad... at the end they are toxic some what. And one of the things they do is to "cut the wings of their sons" so she can have always company.

Be careful with that. The reality is that your family is your temple, your wife chose to be with your and you have to protect her. Be the man and put both women into their right place.

 

[5105973]

I hate to come back to this but for the sake of a child, I'll say this: Your wife made a valid point. Even pedophiles can play nicely with kids. Your mom made a serious mess out of you and your brother. Then you told us she has trouble accepting she is not the mother of your child and disregards boundaries. You even said in passing she would dry nurse your kid if she could. What the bleep? That's not normal. At the time I thought your were just speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Now I fear you were being literal.

That stuff is not going to miraculously stop even if you yell at her and try to set boundaries. Your wife already tried and your mother doesn't think she has anything to apologize for. There are more than a few ants missing at her picnic. She needs pro help getting them back.

She's sick. It was ABUSE to make you this psychologically and emotionally dependent. It's as bad as hitting you upside the head and rendering you too physically disabled to live independently. The end result is the same, an adult who can't function normally, can't have a normal relationship with friends, can't have a healthy marriage, and can't a normal life without professional intervention. Any dysfunctional people I mentioned keeping in my life today got pro help to become functional. There was one person who wouldn't, and I ejected her from my life last year.

Keep that woman away from your kid. If your dad can offer to pay for your psychotherapy, he can pay for your female biological relative. I can't even use the term mother for someone who made their own child this incapable of having a healthy marriage to a very smart and decent woman.

That's it. That was for your kid.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I hate to come back to this but for the sake of a child, I'll say this: Your wife made a valid point. Even pedophiles can play nicely with kids. Your mom made a serious mess out of you and your brother. Then you told us she has trouble accepting she is not the mother of your child and disregards boundaries. You even said in passing she would dry nurse your kid if she could. What the bleep? That's not normal. At the time I thought your were just speaking in hyperbole to make a point. Now I fear you were being literal.

That stuff is not going to miraculously stop even if you yell at her and try to set boundaries. Your wife already tried and your mother doesn't think she has anything to apologize for. There are more than a few ants missing at her picnic. She needs pro help getting them back.

She's sick. It was ABUSE to make you this psychologically and emotionally dependent. It's as bad as hitting you upside the head and rendering you too physically disabled to live independently. The end result is the same, an adult who can't function normally, can't have a normal relationship with friends, can't have a healthy marriage, and can't a normal life without professional intervention. Any dysfunctional people I mentioned keeping in my life today got pro help to become functional. There was one person who wouldn't, and I ejected her from my life last year.

Keep that woman away from your kid. If your dad can offer to pay for your psychotherapy, he can pay for your female biological relative. I can't even use the term mother for someone who made their own child this incapable of having a healthy marriage to a very smart and decent woman.

That's it. That was for your kid.

Well you were the one who explained to me how it doesn't matter if you make an extended family member solve all their deepest issues, and that it only matters that they don't bring any of those issues into your life. And since you've still refused to go into any detail about what you consider appropriate or inappropriate behavior, for all we know you might not find her behavior that rude, disrespectful, etc.

Furthermore, the widespread consensus of everyone I've talked to about this issue is that an occasional visit with a grandma who has emotional problems could not possibly result in emotional problems for a child who spends 99.9% of their time with their emotionally healthy biological parents. Interestingly, my mom's brother held very negative views of her parenting style as we were growing up, and his own children were much more free to explore, experience, interact with a variety of people, etc. When I speak to him now about the issues we've been having, he relates to me how disturbed he was by what he saw in my house when I was younger, and how much control, fear, and neuroticism my mom employed in her parenting. My point is that the idea of sheltering a child from even an occasional visit with a grandparent simply because they have narcissistic, selfish tendencies, is part of what my uncle would describe as part of the PROBLEM in my upbringing. He would describe that as paranoid and overprotective, and potentially having an undesirable effect on the child. Much like what he saw in my mom's parenting.

In any case, today I told my wife that we don't have to ever re-start regular scheduled visits from my mom, and we can just see her whenever it happens on its own, such as family gatherings, when she's in town on her way to the airport and can swing by for a few minutes, and when we occasionally take a trip up to where my folks live. She was in disbelief and asked me if some sort of mafia men snatched me up and replaced me with a different version of myself. The fact that I was open to completely abandoning the entire idea of having my mom visit at fixed intervals, coming all the way here just to spend time with our daughter, just blew her away and had a really positive impact on things.

I do agree with what you told me before; that if proper boundaries are set up and the dysfunctional person either has to behave completely functional and respectful or not visit anymore, that that can work and there would be no harm done to anybody. It's not our business what deep, dark issues she has, or what swirls around her head. She would be welcome to come by for a visit occasionally, provided she treat me and my wife with respect and as a unit, and just plays nicely with our daughter. If she can do that, why wouldn't she be welcome? Our daughter did really like her when we were up at my parents house last month, so she would be a positive presence in our daughter's life. Just a fun grandma to play with now and again. Of course it would also depend on my wife having full trust in me again, and in having agreed to have her over. My wife's feelings do come first.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well you were the one who explained to me how it doesn't matter if you make an extended family member solve all their deepest issues, and that it only matters that they don't bring any of those issues into your life. And since you've still refused to go into any detail about what you consider appropriate or inappropriate behavior, for all we know you might not find her behavior that rude, disrespectful, etc.

Given that my first post today took - oh, about an hour of my time (and my life) which I shall never get back, I shall hold off replying to the rest of this post until tomorrow:

But, seriously, @StephenCampbell, you seem to me to have massive, serious issues respecting boundaries set by anyone, anywhere.

You are utterly unable, and completely incapable - and unwilling - of mounting any sort of a challenge to police your mom's boundaries; and worse, you are spectacularly incapable and utterly unwilling to support your wife's right to set boundaries. Deep down, you don't believe that she has the right to set boundaries.

And now, you seek to deny someone (@GrumpyMom) who has set her own (entirely legitimate) boundaries on what she wishes to discuss when she posted out of decency, and basic human good will, in essence, informed by her own life experiences; and yet, you seek to challenge her right, and deny her right, to set her own boundaries, or you arrogate to yourself the right to challenge them……how (expletive deleted) dare you?

Expletive Deleted: It is not - repeat not - for you to even discuss, let alone question - the boundaries set by someone else. Accept them. What - bloody right - have you to even ask that? This is - none of your business.

The fact that you cannot accept this in a poster who has treated you with nothing other than complete courtesy, respect and kindness is extraordinarily revealing of what you cannot accept in your wife (anything that doesn't please you - her boundaries are of no account). And is utterly illuminating and illustrative of the behaviour of your mother, and what you accept from her, and demand - in turn - learned behaviour, no doubt, - of others. (Utter violation of boundaries, and that you have the right to do so, in case you missed it).

And, frankly, it is exactly the behaviour that you have described that your mother is possibly prone to in her treatment of you.

And, equally revealing, it is very telling that your wife (whom both your mother and you see merely as an extension of yourself, someone devoid of agency, independence, and the right to be given respect) - is on the receiving end of the sort of behaviour where both you and your mother deny the right of your wife to set any sort of boundaries.

 

[mobilehaathi]

Well you were the one who explained to me how it doesn't matter if you make an extended family member solve all their deepest issues, and that it only matters that they don't bring any of those issues into your life. And since you've still refused to go into any detail about what you consider appropriate or inappropriate behavior, for all we know you might not find her behavior that rude, disrespectful, etc.

Furthermore, the widespread consensus of everyone I've talked to about this issue is that an occasional visit with a grandma who has emotional problems could not possibly result in emotional problems for a child who spends 99.9% of their time with their emotionally healthy biological parents. Interestingly, my mom's brother held very negative views of her parenting style as we were growing up, and his own children were much more free to explore, experience, interact with a variety of people, etc. When I speak to him now about the issues we've been having, he relates to me how disturbed he was by what he saw in my house when I was younger, and how much control, fear, and neuroticism my mom employed in her parenting. My point is that the idea of sheltering a child from even an occasional visit with a grandparent simply because they have narcissistic, selfish tendencies, is part of what my uncle would describe as part of the PROBLEM in my upbringing. He would describe that as paranoid and overprotective, and potentially having an undesirable effect on the child. Much like what he saw in my mom's parenting.

In any case, today I told my wife that we don't have to ever re-start regular scheduled visits from my mom, and we can just see her whenever it happens on its own, such as family gatherings, when she's in town on her way to the airport and can swing by for a few minutes, and when we occasionally take a trip up to where my folks live. She was in disbelief and asked me if some sort of mafia men snatched me up and replaced me with a different version of myself. The fact that I was open to completely abandoning the entire idea of having my mom visit at fixed intervals, coming all the way here just to spend time with our daughter, just blew her away and had a really positive impact on things.

I do agree with what you told me before; that if proper boundaries are set up and the dysfunctional person either has to behave completely functional and respectful or not visit anymore, that that can work and there would be no harm done to anybody. It's not our business what deep, dark issues she has, or what swirls around her head. She would be welcome to come by for a visit occasionally, provided she treat me and my wife with respect and as a unit, and just plays nicely with our daughter. If she can do that, why wouldn't she be welcome? Our daughter did really like her when we were up at my parents house last month, so she would be a positive presence in our daughter's life. Just a fun grandma to play with now and again. Of course it would also depend on my wife having full trust in me again, and in having agreed to have her over. My wife's feelings do come first.

Your mother sounds like a really ****ing sick person. Maybe you should try to understand her behavior, and its effect on you and your relationships. With a therapist.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I really am taking all these posts seriously. I make progress all the time, and I had a breakthrough today. My wife was in disbelief at the way I was talking today, in a very good way. Thank you for all the help and support and telling me what I need to hear.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Again, @GrumpyMom, and @A.Goldberg have given you excellent advice.

Your thick skull, compulsive, controlling and obsessive tendencies, profoundly unhealthy and needy relationship with your mother, and utter absorption with yourself, mean that there are only two people whose views you even accept as valid when discussing this, or focussing on this, and they are, your mother and yourself

I think SS is absolutely right here. Being raised with an overly involved parent can certainly create an egocentric attitude. There is more to life than your own feelings, especially in a relationship I am happy @StephenCampbell that you can at least identify some of the problematic thoughts and feelings you're having. Regardless of how valid they are, they are your feelings, but moving forward you NEED to start thinking differently to change your feelings if you expect to save your marraige.

You need to respect the fact that your wife has a right to her opinions and feelings despite what you think of them. She might be wrong some of the time, but that doesn't mean you're right all the time. It sounds to me like her feelings are aligned much more with reality than yours and that she is at her almost at her wits end. I suggest start thinking about others rather than yourself. Volunteering is a great way to do this.

Well you were the one who explained to me how it doesn't matter if you make an extended family member solve all their deepest issues, and that it only matters that they don't bring any of those issues into your life. And since you've still refused to go into any detail about what you consider appropriate or inappropriate behavior, for all we know you might not find her behavior that rude, disrespectful, etc.

This is the most disrespectful thing I've read in a while. @GrumpyMom is trying to help you and has given her own boundaries and you have 1. Refused to recognize them 2. Persistently challenged them and 3. Come off with this haughty sounding tone criticizing her personal space. Grumpy Mom has been here devoting paragraph after paragraph and here you are demanding you get the information you want. Selfish, self seeking, and egotistical oh my.

Seriously, she owes you nothing and she has no requirement to share (perhaps very) personal details of your life with a stranger. There is no reciprocation of you spill out your feelings therefore she must.

I understand you're probably under a great deal of stress but let's be honest, her mom, her mom's issues, and her life have no bearing on your situation. There are so many variables in play to equate two situations.

Furthermore, the widespread consensus of everyone I've talked to about this issue is that an occasional visit with a grandma who has emotional problems could not possibly result in emotional problems for a child who spends 99.9% of their time with their emotionally healthy biological parents.

Not necessarily. It really depends on the extent of her "emotional problems". Clearly you're wife is very concerned about her presence, perhaps rightfully so. You've only had one mom, one perspective, and don't really know anything different. Maybe your wife is just afraid your mom will affect your daughter the way your mom affected you. Maybe she's wrong.

The fact is she's the mother of your child and she clearly feels like she's been stepped on and walked over in her relationship with you and her mother. This post demonstrates AGAIN your inability to BELIEVE this is a YOU PROBLEM.

I honestly believe you still think this is a wife vs mom problem, but really your wife's problem. You agree with everyone saying this is a "you problem" either to people please or maybe just in the occasional and fleeting moment of clarity.

Ultimately if you don't change this will come down to you picking your mom over your wife. So be it if that's your choice. I will repeat yet again what report your wife saying is not asking for your mom to change, she wants YOU to change. She doesn't want to feel like you support your more while minimizing your wife's feelings.

n any case, today I told my wife that we don't have to ever re-start regular scheduled visits from my mom, and we can just see her whenever it happens on its own,

I think you should try and minimize the amount of discussions you have about the mom-ban. I'm not sure who keeps bringing it up but 6 months is a ways off. Leave it at that. Obsessing over a non issue only makes it worse.

I have 2 related Questions Stephen
1) How often to you communicate with your mom. I'm wondering if you talking to her too much is causing issues.

2) What compelled you to date and marry your wife? The only affection you've displayed is her supposed ability to handle your self reported idiosyncrasies.

The reason I ask the latter is because remember my friend I mentioned who self sabatages his own relationships? He forms his "intimate" relationships based on his insecurity. I feel what he wants out of a relationship is self seeking validation that he is worthy of love.

Third question... Boarding on my own boundaries of help... but where are you located? Depending on where you are I might be able either reccomend or find a reccomendation for a quality therapist if you find yourself unsatisfied with your current. Like I said before it may take time for him to build an understanding of your situation. I work in psychiatric medicine and have connects across the country. I think we both know it is imperative you get the help you seek.

 

[StephenCampbell]

I would still suggest her to go talk with someone.

And it won't be anything quick. It took me a good 2 1/2 years to fully trust my wife again, but we had already been together for 14 years when we went through our rift. I at least had a much bigger foundation to our relationship to want to build that trust back.

What caused the rift?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

What caused the rift?

How about an apology to @GrumpyMom - about your arrogant tone, refusal to accept her boundaries, and your outrageous and disrespectful attempt at flagrant boundary trespass - before you seek to try to breach or broach someone else's boundaries?

And, why - and how - is this any of your business?

All you need to know is how others have been able to use the personal experiences of their lives to inform how they feel able to advise you on your situation.

Hint: Rhetorical question? What has this to do with Stephen's little problems?

Everything.

This whole thread is about boundaries. Your inability to support your wife's and your mother's inability to recognise that others have a right to set boundaries and demand respect.

Precisely because much of this (your mother's problems with you, your issues with your wife, and yes, your mother's issues with your wife) are - most of them - about an inability to recognise and respect that other people - you need to learn that other individuals, such as posters who response to you, and here, also, in this instance - your wife, - have the right to set and enforce personal boundaries.