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Tiger and Core Image

I'll throw my two cents in about how I feel about Tiger and Core Image as a Mac mini owner and a programmer. I just bought a Mac mini about six weeks ago. I will not get Tiger for free. I tried my SN on the update program website with April 12th as my purchase date, but it didn't work. I'm not upset though. I knew Tiger was around the corner when I purchased my mini. I'm happy to have been using it for the past several weeks. In all, I will have had two months of usage while Panther is the latest and greatest. I will probably be upgrading to Tiger in the next 2-3 months. I'm not in a hurry, I'll wait to see if there are any critical bugs and upgrade at 10.4.1 or 10.4.2 - ".0" releases can sometimes cause a little pain.

As for Core Image, my mini's GPU is not supported. I had assumed it wouldn't be when I bought my Mac mini. I knew this... well all knew this because the previous CI GPU list didn't include the 9200 when the Mac mini came out. If that pisses you off, you shouldn't have bought a mini.

I don't think CI will be that big of a deal for average users. This is mainly for graphic designers/programmers and gamers. There will be some new graphics capabilities, but I probably won't use them that much as I don't do much image/video editing (just iLife periodically) and I only game on my PC.

I'm a programmer and I understand what an API is - Jim, you're explanation that CI was an API set was helpful, I didn't know exactly what the technology was before. Apple has a way of describing things in "marketese" on their site. If this is the case, it would seem to be equivalent to MS's DirectX stuff. There are GPU's that are optimized for DX8 or DX9 and those perform better when playing games written with DX8/9. In the PC world, if your machine is running like crap on new games, you buy a new GPU that is optimized for DX 8/9. I'm don't use any pro image/video apps on PC so I'm not sure if they utilize DX, but they probably do.

So, here is my opinion, CI will probably only initially get used by pro image/video editting apps and graphics-intensive games, just like DirectX. If you want to use those apps/play those games, you need to get hardware that is capable. This would not be the mini, a budget machine. It would be a PM or at least an iMac. If, as SilconAddict predicts, many developers start incorporating CI intensive code into all their apps they are being stupid. If you are making a simple word-processing program, or some run of the mill application that you want to run on systems of varying specs then you need to program to the lowest common denominator. Otherwise they are minimizing the market for thier application.

As a programmer, I don't work with graphics much, but when I code for Windows apps, if I want my app to run on Win98 I cannot use certain Windows APIs that are only available with WinXP. Sometimes, I code around it using other APIs to accomplish the same task (usually more work) or sometimes the technologies you want to use are simply not there. Why do you think iTunes for Windows only runs on Windows 2000 and XP. Windows 9x doesn't have services support built-in. iTunes uses services for iPod detection and mounting on Windows. There may be other technologies they are using that are Windows 2000/XP specific too, not sure. Apple choose not to support the Windows 9x market, which is still fairly large - I have many friends who would like to run iTunes, but cannot because their OS is out of date. If they really want to use iTunes they will upgrade their OS or computer. This is the nature of technology, plain and simple.

I don't believe it is fair to blame Apple. In the role of Core Image, they are providing a core technology for their operating system. This is for the benefit of application developers and in turn, end-users. It is up to the development community to use that technology responsibly within their applications. Yes, all programmers could start littering their apps with CI that would run the mini's CPU into the ground, but that would be irresponsible and people would stop buying those apps - which is why application developers will only incorporate CI if it is the right thing for their market (graphics design, games, etc). New technologies have to be forward-looking, it would be stupid to design the technology for older (current low/mid-end) hardware. You design the technology for the latest hardware because by the time the technology is adopted and really gets used by developers the "then-latest" hardware is now more mainstream and more/most people get the benefits.

So if anything, I would fault Apple for buidling so few computer lines with upgradable GPUs. I really wish Apple had a consumer level machine that was truly upgradable. Only the PMs have the flexibility of upgrading after purchase. Yes, you can do some things to your iMacs, mini's and 'books after purchase, but not much at all for someone coming from the PC world. I understand that Apple is constantly balancing flexibility and upgradability with the style and deisgn of their machines. I'm glad they finally gave in enough to offer a consumer/budget-level headless Mac and that was enough concession to get me to buy a Mac. (I hate AIOs!) Honestly, I would rather NOT have it be "mini" but instead be "midi" with an AGP and some PCI or even PCI-E slots, more RAM slots and an extra bay or two. Apple could do this with a stylish case. This doesn't have to be top of the line - put a G4 in it, put an older chipset with slower bus in there, I don't care. Expandability and flexibility shouldn't have to come ONLY with the bleeding-edge technology.

And I'm not some rich PM user throwing money down for the latest and greatest every few months. I'm not going to get the full benefit of CI, but that's okay. I'll get some benefit now and when I get better hardware in the future, which is inevitable, I'll get more use from CI then. This is how technology evolves - it is supposed to be this way.
 
bosrs1 said:
Actually it always has been and is. I don't know where these people get their info but iLife05 is with Tiger as part of Tiger.

Do tell... so then why are they bundling Tiger with iLife05 and iWork for $249 if it's already included in Tiger? That doesn't make sense.
 
matticus008 said:
No, the British style allows for clauses to be included that way, but unfortunately, "the bibles of English writing" is a not a clause. It's a phrase. All English styles allow the use of semicolons to alleviate comma confusion (mainly in lists), but you cannot arbitrarily insert semicolons and should NEVER split any noun or verb phrase from its modifiers. What you did in that sentence is a semicolon-splice.



No, the word "bible" is also used to mean "handbook." The reference here is not to the Christian Bible, but to a handbook. In your example, you are capitalizing proper names for companies, which is proper. "Bible" is not always a proper noun, and in fact is never a proper noun with the exception of "the" Bible and references to it. So that's not really the same vein at all.

Seriously guys, this is pathetic, I'm not looking here for a freakin grammar lesson.
 
jim. said:
I think the general rule of thumb would be that, as far as UI goes, Tiger should be as fast or a little faster than what you see in Panther. Wouldn't be much of a "step up" if it was otherwise. Now as far as heavier graphics stuff goes, if it stuttered in Panther, I don't think that Tiger will miraculously make it faster.

Jim
Plus you won't have much choice in 6 months. Look at how little is still supported by 10.2 anymore. You HAVE to update by Christmas, there is no choice.
 
VanNess said:
Back to the Photoshop example. If Adobe releases a core image enhanced version of Photoshop on May 10th, every Tiger compatible machine would see a performance increase from the older Panther version of Photoshop, including the poor mac mini. Because core image in Tiger optimizes how applications can process image filters in a way that wasn't possible on Panther, or any other OS for that matter. Of course, a G5 with a pixel programmable graphics card will scream, but that doesn't mean that the poor mac mini is left out. On the contrary, it will see a performance boost as well, commensurate with its hardware set. Core image technology is like a rising tide that will lift all Tiger compatible machines.
Yes you are one who actually understands. The problem with your example is that Adobe probably will not do that, unfortunately. They have already implemented a whole lot, if not all, of CI's functionality in their own filters and libraries. Why reprogram it, and make it beholden only to OSX? They can't port Photoshop to Win if it uses the CI API. Plus they'd invest a lot of time and money to rewrite the PS backend. All in all, a very poor business decision.

This means that someone new coming along can have a much easier time writing a PS-like application that will run on Tiger, and be blazing fast on the Pro machines. That is what is exciting.

feakbeak: excellent post and explanation. Let's hope people read it and understand it.
 
bosrs1 said:
Actually it always has been and is. I don't know where these people get their info but iLife05 is with Tiger as part of Tiger.
No, actually, your statement is completely false.
 
And you're contributing to the Tiger discussion...how?

Diavilo1 said:
Seriously guys, this is pathetic, I'm not looking here for a freakin grammar lesson.
Then perhaps it would be wise to direct your comments to Tiger? I'm not here for a discussion of iLife, but I'm not complaining. The grammar topic started with some "errors" on Apple's site, which isn't really any more or less relevant than iLife WRT Tiger. Then the discussion turned to criticizing the grammar of a poster (with imperfect grammar used there). In the interest of defending a poster and stopping the madness, I chose to correct the corrected grammar to show that anything can be nitpicked. All while also discussing Tiger.

If you unintentionally learned something about grammar along the way, I'm sure we're all terribly sorry for performing such a disservice. There are 20-odd pages of "I ordered Tiger! Sweet!" in various forms that I'm sure are more worthy of your time.
 
Pismo is now officially supported!

To answer my own post from yesterday and those of a few others, Apple updated their "Supported Systems" webpage, and Tiger is indeed supported on the Pismo.

This is good news for me. I plan on squeezing every ounce of life out of that machine. I bought it at the discontinued price of $1800 in early 2001 while I was working on my master's degree earning $750/month. Let's just say it's been used with kid gloves, and still looks and performs as new, right down to the battery. Just not ready to consider it "unsupported" yet.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html
 
jim. said:
The problem with your example is that Adobe probably will not do that, unfortunately. They have already implemented a whole lot, if not all, of CI's functionality in their own filters and libraries. Why reprogram it, and make it beholden only to OSX?

Actually i intended that just as a technology example and not a prediction. But who knows? Jobs has already gone on record as saying he wants Adobe to implement CI technology. If anyone on this planet can convince Adobe that it makes business sense to develop a truly OS X native version of Photoshop (and it's siblings, i.e., Elements) it's Jobs.

jim. said:
feakbeak: excellent post and explanation. Let's hope people read it and understand it.

Probably not. Unfortunately, the minute people see a list of graphics cards published they think "Oh, then its like a video game, if I don't have that card I can't play the game..."
 
64-bit...makes a diff?

I hope people are still reading this thread, and I'm sorry if this has been addressed and beaten to death already, but I can't read 27 pages of comments right now.

What is the significance of 64-bit processors being "fully" supported in Tiger as opposed to "limited" in Panther? I have an iMac G5. Will this upgrade make for a big speed increase? I know I'm showing my ignorance about what a 64-bit processor is supposed to do, but it's hard to find a straight answer:
Will Tiger be faster because it supports 64-bit machines?

Thanks!

--DT
 
Gil_Grissom said:
Really?? I read the included software list and it just said iTunes 4.7.1. Unless I've missed something or looked in totally the wrong place!! (which to be honest is possible!!) As I understand it iLife wont come with Tiger by default. You can buy a special package deal from Apple to get Tiger AND iLife 05 AND iWorks for a reduced rate. Quite a saving if I remember someones post. Why would Apple do this if iLife is with it anyway? Unless you meant hardware. Yes iLife is included with all new hardware. Sorry if this seems a little attack at ya, not meant to be!!..just a tad confused...please correct me if im wrong!!!! (you dont get many of those invitations now do ya!!!)
...Yeah, that's what i was saying; that OS updates don't come with iLife (the newest version).
 
Why didn't Apple just think ahead?

bpd115 said:
We don't know how much core image is supported via the radeon 9200. It's not like Tiger will be broke on a mini.


No, I understand that Tiger will run fine on a mini. I also understand that the mini is a low-end machine designed to run basic consumer software. I have heard all the arguments about Core Image and it's high-end nature from Jim and others.

My point and I think SiliconAddict's point also, is why didn't Apple have enough foresight a few months ago to just put a better GPU card in the mini?

They could have avoided all the new user animosity about not being able to fully support CoreImage blah, blah, blah, just by increasing the price a measley $25.00 - $50.00 and including a fully supported GPU card. Or at least, they could have provided a build option and listed one of the Core Image compatible GPU's as an upgrade.

I have been an Apple supporter for 20 years. I don't have a mini, I have a TI PB so this doesn't effect me but I just expect Apple to do better. I also see Apple becoming more and more "Microsofted" year by year with their business practices.
 
DTphonehome said:
What is the significance of 64-bit processors being "fully" supported in Tiger as opposed to "limited" in Panther?

Tiger adds limited 64-bit virtual addressing capability to OSX, whereas Panther had none. Tiger is "limited" because only terminal (command line) and server-type apps can use 64-bit addressing - GUI and graphical libraries (like Cocoa and Carbon) are 32-bit only.

64-bit virtual addressing is a feature that allows a single program to use more than 4 GiB of RAM. This is seldom needed on a desktop, but scientific apps and server apps can run out of space in 4 GiB - but of course you need more than 4 GiB of RAM to benefit!

Note that 32-bit Pentium systems support up to 64 GiB of RAM, and even many of the G4 chips supported 64 GiB of RAM (although no Apple system had more than 2 GiB). You don't *need* 64-bit to support more than 4 GiB of RAM.


DTphonehome said:
I have an iMac G5. Will this upgrade make for a big speed increase? Will Tiger be faster because it supports 64-bit machines?

A big increase, certainly not. With the limited memory capacity of an iMac, 64-bit virtual addressing will be of little or no value to you.

There's no simple answer, however, because there are at least three dimensions to the "64-bit support" question.

  • PPC970 optimizations - the compilers are improving on getting better performance out of 32-bit code on the PPC970. Sometimes this is called "64-bit processor support", even though it is only using 32-bit code that is compatible with the G3 and G4.

    If you see any improvement in speed in a G5 iMac, it is more than likely due to improved compilers, not 64-bit per se.
  • 64-bit integer math - a few applications make significant use of 64-bit integers. Since the PPC970 can use 64-bit integers even while running with 32-bit addressing, these applications can be faster on the 64-bit machine.

    Sometimes the system libraries can speed things up by using 64-bit integers - even though the application is using only 32-bit G3/G4 compatible code.

    You iMac might get some benefit from 64-bit integers, depending on your applications.
  • 64-bit virtual addressing - until you can put more than 4 GiB of RAM in your iMac, this won't help you and could even slow you down a little. (The 64-bit addresses are bigger, so they use more memory, more memory bandwidth, and more space in caches.)

Not a simple answer, but it's not a simple question....
 
digitalbiker said:
My point and I think SiliconAddict's point also, is why didn't Apple have enough foresight a few months ago to just put a better GPU card in the mini?
I think Apple did have the foresight, even if they didn't execute on it. I'm sure they would have liked to put a GPU in the mini that fully supported the functionality of Core Image. However, there are many constraints involved when building a machine for the budget market, especially one that is so small. My guess is that they would have liked to put a better GPU in the mini, but there were engineering difficulties (heat/size) and/or it would have pushed the price/profit margin outside of acceptable levels for Apple from a business perspective.

Apple wanted to aggressively price the Mac mini. They were successful, but it forced some corned-cutting. I'm sure the business/finance folks at Apple forced the engineers to hit a certain target price for the mini while maintaining an acceptable profit margin. That is tough! I think a good solution to offering more with a headless consumer Mac is.... "Mac midi". That's what I would have wanted, ideally. Not a PM, not DP, more like the current iMac, but headless - start at $999. I would like Apple to fill in the non-AOI desktop market. I doubt this will happen, I know Apple envisions desktops going away to just notebooks and desktops will mainly just be for servers or pros. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter to me - I don't like notebooks. I like my desktop machine with a separate monitor... please don't take them away Apple! :)
 
AidenShaw said:
Not a simple answer, but it's not a simple question....

Thanks for the excellent explanation! Now I can know what to expect when I upgrade. According to some benchmarks I've seen, the upgrade should give me a nice boost, so 64-bit support or not, I'm going for it.
Thanks!
--DT
 
yay, tiger is here. sooner than i thought..

is re-caliberation of my battery (pb 12) recommended/necessary when i upgrade to tiger? or with any install of an os? thanks.
 
AidenShaw said:
XP Home OEM $93
XP Pro OEM $146

http://www.newegg.com/app/searchPro...&DEPA=0&bop=and&description=xp&InnerManu=1149

Please be realistic about comparing prices - if you're one of the rare people who are building a system, you know how to get the software at a reasonable price.


So yeah I am only on page 12 of this huge topic..

anyway, Aiden, you are forgetting the fact that you need to buy new PC hardware to get that price. Being an avid windows user myself, I also wouldn't compare XP Home with OSX anyway. Granted the Pro version's biggest advantage is "domain membership", and most home users don't need that.

Since new Apple computers come with an OS, like most Windows computers come with an OEM license, I think it is fair to price "over the counter" OS prices. With that, price advantages between OSX and Windows ammount to about a cup of coffee. The nice thing about OSX is the fact that the price is the same almost everywere, and you don't have to "activate" it with Apple to use it, and or reload your Macintosh.

840
being realistic
 
My PowerMac G5 came with iLife 05 preinstalled. Is there any way I can use my restore disks to install iLife, or will I need to repurchase it?
 
NuPowerbook said:
My PowerMac G5 came with iLife 05 preinstalled. Is there any way I can use my restore disks to install iLife, or will I need to repurchase it?

You'll be able to install it without repurchasing. In fact, if you do an Upgrade or an Archive and Install, you shouldn't even have to dig out your restore DVD!
 
apologize in advance.

was I the only one who bought tiger and then thought they were going to get access to that seminar right away to hold me over until it arrived? dman it. sorry in advance if this was posted previously, because I did not get a chance to read through the 600+ about how sweet it will be on the upcoming g5 powerbook.
 
matticus008 said:
You'll be able to install it without repurchasing. In fact, if you do an Upgrade or an Archive and Install, you shouldn't even have to dig out your restore DVD!

Well, I plan to do a clean install. How would I go about reinstalling iLife once I wipe the hard drive?
 
iLife

So, is iTunes the only iLife app that's included in Tiger? I would have thought they would have put in iPhoto 4 and iMovie 4, or something! Panther included iTunes 4, iPhoto 2, and iMovie 3, the second most current versions of them at the time. Well, may I dust off an old chestnut, "Whodathunkit?"
 
iMacZealot said:
So, is iTunes the only iLife app that's included in Tiger? I would have thought they would have put in iPhoto 4 and iMovie 4, or something! Panther included iTunes 4, iPhoto 2, and iMovie 3, the second most current versions of them at the time. Well, may I dust off an old chestnut, "Whodathunkit?"
It's not that they were the second-most current, it's that they were the latest FREE versions. iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3 are still free, provided you can find them. Version 4's were never freely available, so you can only install them if you paid for them.

For the other poster (NuPowerbook), just do an Archive and Install. If you're really hell-bent on reinstalling all of your applications, then do an Erase and Install. Afterwards, get your restore DVD, put it in, and opt to install iLife only from that disc.
 
matticus008 said:
It's not that they were the second-most current, it's that they were the latest FREE versions. iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3 are still free, provided you can find them. Version 4's were never freely available, so you can only install them if you paid for them.

Well, what I mean is usually Apple throws in a few iLife apps in for free. They did iMovie, iPhoto, and iTunes in Panther. They did iTunes and iMovie in 10.1. I'm not sure about Jaguar. I think 10.0 came with iTunes. I'm pretty sure iTunes came even with Mac OS 9 and iMovie may have come with iMovie as well.

(PS: I haven't used Mac OS 9, Mac OS 10.0, or Mac OS 10.2. I am creating educated guesses on what Apple included. If I'm wrong, don't be shocked.)
 
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