Tile CEO: 'We Welcome Competition From Apple, But We Think It Needs to Be Fair'

[LordVic]

Forcing a company to give free unrestricted access to technology they developed and put in their own device doesn't sound like capitalism just because another company doesn't want to put in the time/money to develop something themselves. Sounds like communism to me.

that's a gross misunderstanding of the argument.

Nobody is saying apple needs to give apps for free. Just that Apple shouldn't be able to lock you to exclusively the App store all while imposing their restrictions AND restrictive pricing to use it.

If I TRULY owned the hardware Apple sells me, I would have the right to do anything to the software stack and install anything I want. EVEN if it voided my warranty and bricked my phone.

 

[sparkinstx]

Tile just needs to step up their game. And just charge users a one-time fee to buy Tile Pro, instead of making people buy a subscription.

 

[Zmmyt]

I can see where they are coming from. But they have the entire Android market at their disposal. Why can’t they hook up with Google or Samsung and create a decent tracker for the other 71%.

 

[WiseAJ]

that's a gross misunderstanding of the argument.

Nobody is saying apple needs to give apps for free. Just that Apple shouldn't be able to lock you to exclusively the App store all while imposing their restrictions AND restrictive pricing to use it.

If I TRULY owned the hardware Apple sells me, I would have the right to do anything to the software stack and install anything I want. EVEN if it voided my warranty and bricked my phone.

You do own the hardware. Apple still owns the software though. You are welcome to develop any OS you want and find a way to put it on the hardware if you so choose.

 

[pauloregan]

Apple are like a domestic abuser. All smiles and marketing when out in public but controlling and vicious behind the scenes.

They probably hired Amazon Basics executives to help steal ideas.

 

[k1121j]

This case seems much more valid then epic games….

 

[Michael Scrip]

All of these companies claiming that Apple is being unfair - turn the argument on it's head. So Apple are NOT allowed to create a piece of hardware that works with their platform and OS, just BECAUSE they own the platform and OS, in case that might give them an unfair advantage over others? That position would be incredibly unfair to Apple. Apple can invest huge amounts of money to create the phone and it's OS, but they're NOT allowed to leverage that to make other items, such as watches, headphones, glasses etc that work with the eco-system. Just because that might be unfair to someone else?

For example, do you see Bowers & Wilkins, Bose, Sony, Bang, or any of the myriad other headphone manufacturers whining? No. Because they compete on features and value for money. All Apple's wearable audio products feature incredibly easy pairing that other manufacturers cannot offer because that part of the system is closed to them. Unfair advantage to Apple? It's certainly an advantage. But it is most definitely not unfair. They built the damned system. But it's just a part of the functionality. There are plenty of other reasons for the consumer to favour, say, B&W over Beats, regardless of the nifty pairing. And so those companies still have a market.

If Tile focused on innovating and added features that might make people want to purchase their products, then they would do well. The U1 capabilities are not everything. Just a part of the tracking solution.

Stop whining Tile. Go do something positive and prove everyone on here that they're wrong, and that you do have a survivable business model.

Thank you for this. I was actually thinking about the headphone example earlier.

Nobody complained when Apple entered the headphone market with EarPods, AirPods, and AirPods Max, did they?

The headphone market is still as vibrant as ever. And huge.

The difference here, though, is that the Bluetooth tracker market isn't huge. Even though Tile has been around for 8 years... it's still a niche product in the broad marketplace. I think I read somewhere that Tile has sold 26 million Tile device in their history. And that's out of billions of mobile phone users. Again... niche.

But when Apple decides to sell Bluetooth trackers... people will notice. Apple has a presence in the world. Everything they do makes news. Apple could probably sell 26 million AirTags in the first year. And they already have a billion compatible devices in their Find My network.

On the one hand... I feel bad for Tile.

On the other hand... Apple simply built a better mousetrap. That's life.

As Gruber said... "The problem for a company like Tile  is that location tags are inherently simple, and Apple’s Find My network is bigger and better than Tile’s device network. Everything about AirTags is better than Tile, if you’re an iOS user."

"If you have a good idea for a third-party product on a big platform, you need to expect that the platform maker will eventually use your idea. If they don’t, maybe it wasn’t that good an idea in the first place. If they do, you should be ready to keep your product viable by going further than the platform maker is willing to go."

 

[Unregistered 4U]

So the lesson learned here is: don't have the bulk of your business model (Tile) rely on another company (Apple) for long term success

Unless your business plan (Tile) is to eventually be purchased by that company (Apple)?

iPhone customers want apple products because they know they work best together. That's Apple's business model.

Tile is platform agnostic, so maybe they'll have to ramp up the reasoning why Apple and Android users should buy them.

I don’t think so. Because there’s a very large number of companies depending on Amazon, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Steam, Epic etc. for their long term success and they have found it makes sense for them to do so. Blizzard doesn’t want to create an OS, Ubisoft doesn’t want to create a portable device, Sega doesn’t want to create a games console (anymore). DropBox doesn’t want to stand up a worldwide network of storage servers. As a result, they’re willing to work with the companies in question to do business.

The bigger lesson is… make sure that you’re always working to ensure that customers use your product NOT because they don’t have a choice, but because they WANT to. Because, if you’re in any way successful, someone’s going to challenge your market and if folks love what you’ve been making, they will be reluctant to switch to your competitor. If Tile has done nothing to make a Samsung user choose their tags over Samsung’s solution, then they’ve failed.

 

[LordVic]

You do own the hardware. Apple still owns the software though. You are welcome to develop any OS you want and find a way to put it on the hardware if you so choose.

That's the problem. Apple has blocked this completely and even if I were actively trying there is no way to replace iOS. there were some attempts in the past with jailbreaking to at least replace portions, but Apple now actively bricks phones that don't pass software checks.

Apple 100% violates the very premise you claim they should be allowing.

I agree with you though. if these checks and blocks weren't around and some 3rd party dev wanted to create their own OS. They should have 100% ability to do so. I probably wouldn't trust it, but that's up to the user to decide. NOT Apple;.

 

[sn00p]

Having been caught by the Tile "We won't notify you if we know or have calculated that the battery in your device is low and needs replacing" issue, they need flushing down the toilet.

A device that helps you locate lost "things" is no use if it doesn't tell you that the battery is dying or dead, because you only tend to open the app to find things, opening it to find that your battery died months ago is not useful.

I've had this conversation with technical support at Tile who are aware of the issue but have done nothing to fix it.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Yes but I still keep a QR code generator around when I need it.

Generator... yes.

But I was talking about QR code scanner apps. Red Laser, etc.

 

[happyprozak]

the big equestion that really can't be easily answered is what constitutes a monopoly and whats the market.

if we're talking about "smart phone" market. yes, Android is bigger and would illuminate any talk of monopoly.

But that's not exactly real breakdown of phone and it's user base. especially with vendor / software lock in.


However if we look at each market independantly as they often behave. Android is a monopoly of the android space and iOS of the Apple space. The reason why this argument doesn't get brought up against Android is because you can install 3rd party stores and that is competition.

if you look at iOS as it's own market, than the App store is 100% a monopoly.


And as someone using iOS? Telling users to "just leave" is stupid. More users leave the ecosystem and it results in smaller potential customer base for Developers. Which results in less development for that platform. Encouraging people to leave over Apple's business practices in some veign attempt to feel superior is just silly gatekeeping that helps nobody

when in reality, the best solution is to prevent monopolization and monopolistic business practices.

When you have long standing fanboys such as MKBHD who are starting to go "hold up apple, something's not right here"... and even the fanboys are pointing out the monopolistic behaviour that is crippling 3rd parties, than it's clear there is a problem here.

It's true that you can install 3rd party app stores on Android but the malware on Android makes it less user friendly and from what I know of the average person, the average person is better off sticking to Apple. Installing 3rd party app stores isn't straight forward either so that's limited to tech enthusiasts but even tech enthusiasts get hit with malware when side-loading.

Situations like this are an opportunity for Tile to team up with companies like Google to provide a better tracking experience than is available on iOS.

Use Apple's closed ecosystem against them.

If iOS were to lose major developers like Google, Facebook, Instagram (Facebook), Microsoft, Netflix, Spotify, etc they would be crippled. These are powerful companies that can bring Apple to their knees if they banded together.

How many people would jump ship to Android if they lost apps from these developers? I'm sure it would bring Apple to the table to discuss opening up the platform more.

At the end of the day, users have to voice their opinion with their purchases.

 

[LordVic]

Thank you for this. I was actually thinking about the headphone example earlier.

Nobody complained when Apple entered the headphone market with EarPods, AirPods, and AirPods Max, did they?

The headphone market is still as vibrant as ever. And huge.

The difference here, though, is that the Bluetooth tracker market isn't huge. Even though Tile has been around for 8 years... it's still a niche product in the broad marketplace. I think I read somewhere that Tile has sold 26 million Tile device in their history. And that's out of billions of mobile phone users. Again... niche.

But when Apple decides to sell Bluetooth trackers... people will notice. Apple has a presence in the world. Everything they do makes news. Apple could probably sell 26 million AirTags in the first year. And they already have a billion compatible devices in their Find My network.

On the one hand... I feel bad for Tile.

On the other hand... Apple simply built a better mousetrap. That's life.

As Gruber said... "The problem for a company like Tile  is that location tags are inherently simple, and Apple’s Find My network is bigger and better than Tile’s device network. Everything about AirTags is better than Tile, if you’re an iOS user."

"If you have a good idea for a third-party product on a big platform, you need to expect that the platform maker will eventually use your idea. If they don’t, maybe it wasn’t that good an idea in the first place. If they do, you should be ready to keep your product viable by going further than the platform maker is willing to go."

My fear if I were coming to market with a new product that ties into the apple ecosystem. is when is Apple going to come out and undercut me and render my product unable to compete due to being able to leverage the Apple platform.

How many times have we seen someone who has a great App, only for Apple to release their own but undercut them because Apple doesn't need to take 30% off the top themselves.

or in cases like flux, outright block the app because it competes with Apple on a feature they added after the fact.

These are why the current App store model is questionable from an Anti-Trust point of view. Apple removes autonomy and competition as they see fit. Not as the market actually shakes out.

 

[mashdots]

My God. They literally have access to use the Find My network. What more do they want Apple to do?

Definitely recommend watching MKBHD's video on this.

After watching MKBHD's video on Tile's options, the future looks pretty bleak for them.

 

[G5isAlive]

the big equestion that really can't be easily answered is what constitutes a monopoly and whats the market.

if we're talking about "smart phone" market. yes, Android is bigger and would illuminate any talk of monopoly.

But that's not exactly real breakdown of phone and it's user base. especially with vendor / software lock in.


However if we look at each market independantly as they often behave. Android is a monopoly of the android space and iOS of the Apple space. The reason why this argument doesn't get brought up against Android is because you can install 3rd party stores and that is competition.

if you look at iOS as it's own market, than the App store is 100% a monopoly.


And as someone using iOS? Telling users to "just leave" is stupid. More users leave the ecosystem and it results in smaller potential customer base for Developers. Which results in less development for that platform. Encouraging people to leave over Apple's business practices in some veign attempt to feel superior is just silly gatekeeping that helps nobody

when in reality, the best solution is to prevent monopolization and monopolistic business practices.

When you have long standing fanboys such as MKBHD who are starting to go "hold up apple, something's not right here"... and even the fanboys are pointing out the monopolistic behaviour that is crippling 3rd parties, than it's clear there is a problem here.

Sure you can define anything narrowly enough so that eventually it's a monopoly. Just because you can define it such doesn't mean it is. What is without question is that Fortnite was available on at least 7 separate platforms with cross platform play, that you could buy Fortnite bucks with a web browser and hence did not have to rely on IOS for that either. Also what is without question is that Epic engaged in ill faith practices by not submitting their pay system for review as required, but made server side changes that broke their agreement with Apple. This case relies on specifics, not generalities. But sure, call everyone fanboys if their knowledge of the facts conflict with your agenda

 

[Unregistered 4U]

And the reminders that "Tile has been accessing your location in the background"? Surely this just reminds users they have Tile and it's working?

I used to have Dark Sky which would use the barometer in your device to help improve their weather models. You didn’t HAVE to turn it on, but if you wanted to, they appreciated it. Whenever it popped up saying Dark Sky has been accessing your location in the background, that was just a reminder that I was providing the information. It also kinda reminded me that if something WAS getting my location in the background, I’d know about it.

 

[haydn!]

... it happens around the time its turned into a generic compute device with hundreds of thousands if not millions of companies basing their businesses around developing for it. It was Apple's choice to move in that direction (Because iPhone would have died without Apps in a competitive market against phones with Apps), there are certain rules businesses are expected to play by that are written into law that then come into effect.

I don't buy that. Not entirely at least. Sure, Apple opened themselves up to third party developers but it's still not open source. Since day one, that access has been sold as a service. It comes at a nominal price and with a long, and well documented list of limits and boundaries. The developer agreement specifically states that Apple reserves the right to restrict/limit/wiithdraw access to services and features at any time. So, if you opt to build a business based on that, you do so on the understanding of what you can or cannot do at the moment in time you sign the agreement.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

For me, it's all a moot point until I can get a slim credit card sized airtag that fits into my wallet (the thing I misplace the most)

I see the posts on here saying “I want an AirTag that’s in my wallet” or “I want an AirTag with a key ring hole”, then I look at Tile’s website and I can visualize the numbers of dollars Tile ISN’T making per second

 

[Unregistered 4U]

How to Opt out of Apple's "Find My" Network on iPhone, iPad, and Mac

While Apple's Bluetooth network is anonymous and encrypted, you can still turn it off if you want.

www.howtogeek.com

Toggle this off. Pretty simple.
View attachment 1769726

Next week, when they lose their phone, “WHY DOESN’T ‘FIND MY’ WORK? Apple claims it can help you track your phone but I’m not seeing it!!”

I have a paranoid friend that would always turn off everything, even when they didn’t understand what it did, then wondered why some feature didn’t work. “WHY DOESN’T THE MAP WORK ANYMORE?” You turned off location services, remember? “THEY NEED MY LOCATION FOR THE MAP?”

sigh…… yes.

 

[LordVic]

Use Apple's closed ecosystem against them.


At the end of the day, users have to voice their opinion with their purchases.

It's true that you can install 3rd party app stores on Android but the malware on Android makes it less user friendly and from what I know of the average person, the average person is better off sticking to Apple. Installing 3rd party app stores isn't straight forward either so that's limited to tech enthusiasts but even tech enthusiasts get hit with malware when side-loading.

Sure. But that should still be a users choice whether to risk themselves or not. Not Apples. They can bury it in the menues and give numerous popups warning about the risk all they want. That's fine. WHERE I think its too much is the outright refusal to allow the 3rd parties. Which in my mind indicates that they are likely more driven by monetary decision making than outright security.

Situations like this are an opportunity for Tile to team up with companies like Google to provide a better tracking experience than is available on iOS.

Let them do whatever with Android. but the fear is that if Tile no longer can compete in iOS they walk away and only are available on Android. Resulting in ONLY Airtags available for IOS devices. this is a lack of competition and Apple historically when they haven't had competition, min/maxes at the users expense.

How many people would jump ship to Android if they lost apps from these developers? I'm sure it would bring Apple to the table to discuss opening up the platform more.

I am one of those who will switch platforms depending on featuresets. if Apple can no longer deliver the competing products, apps and development space that is in Android, I'll switch for the next generation. Heck, I'm only back in Apple land after numerous Android devices. I will switch back if Apple can't deliver.

If iOS were to lose major developers like Google, Facebook, Instagram (Facebook), Microsoft, Netflix, Spotify, etc they would be crippled. These are powerful companies that can bring Apple to their knees if they banded together.

Apple's lucky that Google, Facebook and the like aren't directly teaming up. we already have seen Netflix and Amazon outright reject the App store model and refuse to do in-store purchasing because of the Apple cut and controls. Epic is just another company falling behind that. for now, the iOS ecosystem is still bringing in enough money. but what if that changes? It'll end up similar to Apple Home kit which quite frankly, sucks compared to the comptition, has few developers, which ended up in a massively reduced availabillity of features. that's not the direction i Think anyone of us should want with iOS as well.

we're starting to see the App store walls crack because companies are getting tired of giving 30% of all revenues to Apple.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Sure you can define anything narrowly enough so that eventually it's a monopoly. Just because you can define it such doesn't mean it is. What is without question is that Fortnite was available on at least 7 separate platforms with cross platform play, that you could buy Fortnite bucks with a web browser and hence did not have to rely on IOS for that either. Also what is without question is that Epic engaged in ill faith practices by not submitting their pay system for review as required, but made server side changes that broke their agreement with Apple. This case relies on specifics, not generalities. But sure, call everyone fanboys if their knowledge of the facts conflict with your agenda

Exactly.

Epic violated the contract they had with Apple... then Epic sues Apple?!

Bizarre!

 

[kiensoy]

Funny how I don’t remember Apple fans saying how “crappy” Tile was when they were happily using them long before AirTags came along. It’s almost like you have to HATE everything that competes with Apple products.

Just how they started hating on Intel when Apple Silicon was introduced (when they used to love their Intel Macs). Or how they started hating on Spotify when Apple Music was launched.

Sometimes I don’t like reading the comments because it’s turned into a bunch of angry fanboys mad at anything not Apple. This place used to be muuuch better.

 

[LordVic]

Sure you can define anything narrowly enough so that eventually it's a monopoly. Just because you can define it such doesn't mean it is. What is without question is that Fortnite was available on at least 7 separate platforms with cross platform play, that you could buy Fortnite bucks with a web browser and hence did not have to rely on IOS for that either. Also what is without question is that Epic engaged in ill faith practices by not submitting their pay system for review as required, but made server side changes that broke their agreement with Apple. This case relies on specifics, not generalities. But sure, call everyone fanboys if their knowledge of the facts conflict with your agenda

Epic is wrong.... mostly


their behaviour is pretty ****** and this is a case of crappy company that has a point, behaving like **** because they're dealing with another company that has crappy behaviour

just because Epic themselves are a ****** company doesn't invalidate all the points they're making

 

[Michael Scrip]

we're starting to see the App store walls crack because companies are getting tired of giving 30% of all revenues to Apple.

It makes me wonder if this would all go away if Apple changed it to 15% for everyone.

Or would everyone start demanding 10% ?

 

[LordVic]

Just how they started hating on Intel when Apple Silicon was introduced (when they used to love their Intel Macs). Or how they started hating on Spotify when Apple Music was launched.

Sometimes I don’t like reading the comments because it’s turned into a bunch of angry fanboys mad at anything not Apple. This place used to be muuuch better.

it's amusing though. in my... 10 years on these forums, you can usually tell who the sycophants are. and the haters as well. there's both.