Tim Cook Comment Prompts Speculation iPhone 7 Will Support Apple Pencil

[sgriska]

If you want a pencil with your phone so much,.,get the Note 7.. samsung is the only company who has done a good job with having a smart pen built into the phone.

If you want to draw, pressure sensitivity is really the whole point.

 

[Veraxus]

This is the one thing that might get me to upgrade from my 6+

The 6S was so weak to begin with, it sounds like today's announcements might be little more than another S release. Apple Pencil support, though... that would be a game changer for me... but only if they provide a first party solution for carrying the pencil around with me.

 

[rjohnstone]

If you want to draw, pressure sensitivity is really the whole point.

The S-Pen on the Note 7 has 4,096 levels of pressure sensitivity. It uses the Wacom "Feel" digital pen solution.
It's not a "stylus" either. It is a digital pen.

 

[peterdevries]

Yeah, Apple really has to solve this problem before it can ship the pencil to be used with their iPad.

Very constructive.
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They still haven't with the iPad Pro.

Logitech has, however.

Yeah, I know. The issue is though that an iPad is usually carried in a bag when on the go. So the stowing of a pencil is less of an issue. But many men do not have a bag or anything and carry their phone, wallet and keys in their pockets. Pencils are easily lost. I think Samsung has quite an elegant solution.

 

[kdarling]

I'm sure this has all been said before, but did any of you ever use a device that came with a stylus 10 years ago? They required a stylus. They would not work without one. The screens didn't work with fingers.

I agree with most of your post, and your general gist here, but wanted to point out that a stylus wasn't strictly required. Many smartphone touchscreens back then worked pretty well with fingers also.

The main reason people used a stylus with the older phones (besides for Graffiti on the Palms) was because most of the input buttons (especially for on-screen keyboards) were so tiny, in order to conserve space on the usually fairly small screens of the time.

I say "most of the input buttons", because smartphone and app makers were beginning to try to appeal to those who didn't want to yank out a stylus every time they wanted to do something. For example, by 2005 Samsung included a finger friendly quick control panel (for disabling WiFi, etc), and a finger friendly remote control app to use the IR transmitter that some of their smartphones included. They even had a finger friendly browser back then.

I would also point out that at least on Windows Mobile, you could also use menu and cursor keys if you didn't feel like pulling out the stylus and/or only had one hand free.

Finger input (and especially multitouch) changed the game in this market.

Yep, and those things were coming no matter what.

Analysts had predicted that capacitive screens and finger friendly UIs would become big in 2007. Everyone in the industry knew that finger-friendly was the wave of the future, and were working (slowly) on such systems.

"the mobile phone market is almost ripe for an explosion in touch sensitive user interfaces and, when it comes, it will be capacitive technology that dominates."

"We expect most demand to come from finger-sensitive technology built into high-end feature phones. This will be a significant shift from today's wireless PDA segment, where most stylus-driven touch screen devices can be found."

- Stephen Entwistle at Strategy Analytics, June 2006

(Edit: snipped a lot of images and other info about this topic, because this thread is more about pens, not touch history.)

Sure, the Pencil has similarities with a stylus, but a Pencil is not a simple stylus.

Exactly. People misuse the terms all the time.

• A stylus is just a dumb stick taking the place of a finger poking at a touch panel.
• A pen/pencil is an active device that transmits its position/slant/pressure to the device for higher accuracy and more options to emulate real life writing/drawing instruments.

I simply don't buy the argument by people who rehash the stylus quote. Yes, it looks like a stylus, but the context is very different.

Having said that, would Steve have let the Pencil go to market? Honestly, who knows? Perhaps not. But that's not really the point. The point is that his quote had a specific meaning in a specific context. Things have changed a lot since then.

This.

Also, one thing I've pointed out many times, is that Tim Cook will add any Samsung features that he thinks are stealing major iPhone sales away. That's why Cook went phablet mode. And that's why it's quite possible he'll add pen support to an iPhone model.

 

[kirk.israel]

Bummer, no sign of it at the launch.

Over the years I've spent so much on Yet Another Doodle Tablet (THIS one will really make be an artist ;-) )

 

[ahbiteme]

Yes, I did use one of those devices that "required" a stylus. A Treo 650. It came with a stylus and when I lost mine it was fingertip navigation for a while until I got another. It wasn't pretty as the targets were small but it would register with a fingertip or fingernail press.

It would work without a stylus.

This is from someone who actually used one of these devices, not repeating wrong "facts" they read on the Internet.

But that's just the point - you replaced the stylus because the finger input (which was a proxy for a missing stylus) was rubbish. The screens needed pressure, not a simple touch, and the UIs were designed for the small tip of the stylus, not a broad finger. This is why no one released a device where the primary input method was a fingernail press. Devices like your Treo were designed for stylus input.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said require - you're right, you can make them work without a stylus, but it's a workaround. And yes, I shouldn't have said that the screens didn't work with fingers, etc. The point was that they weren't really designed for that.

Hopefully I've clarified that now, but just to be sure, those devices were designed for stylus use as their primary input method. iPhones and iPads (and other devices - I'm certainly not saying this is just an Apple thing) were designed for finger input, and that finger input has been pretty sensational. But in its own way, finger input is limited - fingers are blunt. The additional functionality of the Pencil expands what we can do.

Not sure if you're saying I'm repeating wrong facts that I read on the Internet, but if so, that's not the case. Like you, I also used these things back in the day. I still do. I receive many deliveries and lots of the drivers ask me to sign on devices that require a stylus. Those who have lost their stylus hand me a pen instead. I can't sign on those devices with my fingers or fingernails. Some additional thing is needed. So at least those devices, for that purpose, require a stylus or some other item that they must carry in order to do their main function.
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I agree with most of your post, and your general gist here, but wanted to point out that a stylus wasn't strictly required. Many smartphone touchscreens back then worked pretty well with fingers also.

The main reason people used a stylus with the older phones (besides for Graffiti on the Palms) was because most of the input buttons (especially for on-screen keyboards) were so tiny, in order to conserve space on the usually fairly small screens of the time.

I say "most of the input buttons", because smartphone and app makers were beginning to try to appeal to those who didn't want to yank out a stylus every time they wanted to do something. For example, by 2005 Samsung included a finger friendly quick control panel (for disabling WiFi, etc), and a finger friendly remote control app to use the IR transmitter that some of their smartphones included. They even had a finger friendly browser back then.

I would also point out that at least on Windows Mobile, you could also use menu and cursor keys if you didn't feel like pulling out the stylus and/or only had one hand free.

Yes that's true. Fair points that you've made there. I was talking in pretty general terms and there were always going to be exceptions.

But the main point, really, is that the Pencil was designed for very different functions than a stylus. Sure, at the end of the day there's still a long thin thing being pressed against the screen, but they're quite different.

 

[itguy06]

But that's just the point - you replaced the stylus because the finger input (which was a proxy for a missing stylus) was rubbish. The screens needed pressure, not a simple touch, and the UIs were designed for the small tip of the stylus, not a broad finger. This is why no one released a device where the primary input method was a fingernail press. Devices like your Treo were designed for stylus input.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said require - you're right, you can make them work without a stylus, but it's a workaround. And yes, I shouldn't have said that the screens didn't work with fingers, etc. The point was that they weren't really designed for that.

The Treo had a screen less than 1/2 the site of the original iPhone. The touch targets were simply too small because of the small screen. It also used resistive touch (like early touch screens) vs the capacitive touch of the original iPhone. I have no doubts that with a larger screen it could have been made to work with touch - if you used a pinkie you could get some of the larger things (icons, OK/Cancel) to register. It was serviceable but ideal.

 

[Mochan]

I'm sure this has all been said before, but did any of you ever use a device that came with a stylus 10 years ago? They required a stylus. They would not work without one. The screens didn't work with fingers. Finger input (and especially multitouch) changed the game in this market. Styluses then became a simple marker of primitive and limited hardware.

Sure, the Pencil has similarities with a stylus, but a Pencil is not a simple stylus. The Pencil expands the use of the device. I can still use an iPad without it, but there are limits to what fingers can do. The Pencil greatly increases the creative capabilities of these devices.

Remember the arguments about how an iPad is great for content consumption, but not for content curation? Sketching on the iPad with fingers was pretty ordinary, mostly because fingers are not fine or precise. The Pencil gets around that limitation. So what's the problem with expanding what a device can do by adding another type of input?

I simply don't buy the argument by people who rehash the stylus quote. Yes, it looks like a stylus, but the context is very different.

Having said that, would Steve have let the Pencil go to market? Honestly, who knows? Perhaps not. But that's not really the point. The point is that his quote had a specific meaning in a specific context. Things have changed a lot since then.

This is incorrect. 20 years ago people were using Palm devices that did not work with fingers and needed the stylus, but that was back in the late 90's. By the time Steve Jobs made his famous stylus quote a decade ago, Palm was a dying brand and the smartphone market was dominated by Windows Mobile devices that had BOTH stylus and finger input. I should know -- I used a lot of these devices at the time up until 2008 or so when I switched to an iPhone.

The context at the time was pretty much the same as it is today. It just underscores one thing: Steve Jobs was WRONG and people have always found value in having a stylus -- that's why the Galaxy Note 1 did ridiculously well and spawned a new class of device when it first came out in 2010. People had the Android-based Note 1, which had excellent usage as a touchscreen device with your fingers, but which had a stylus that expanded the use of the device, just as you describe. And this is exactly how it was with Windows Mobile devices a decade ago like the XDA II, the various HP iPAQ devices, the HTC Prophet, the Samsung i780, and a whole host of other smartphones from that era.

While there's no doubt that Steve's vision of touch input was far, far superior to how Windows Mobile and Palm Treos did it in 2007, he was wrong to think that the stylus was a useless tool, and that's part of the reason why Samsung was able to gain a foothold in the market and fight tit for tat with Apple over the last decade.

 

[blackcrayon]

the various HP iPAQ devices, the HTC Prophet, the Samsung i780, and a whole host of other smartphones from that era.

While there's no doubt that Steve's vision of touch input was far, far superior to how Windows Mobile and Palm Treos did it in 2007, he was wrong to think that the stylus was a useless tool, and that's part of the reason why Samsung was able to gain a foothold in the market and fight tit for tat with Apple over the last decade.

I agree with the other poster. I didn't try all of the devices you mentioned, but I did use an iPaq for a short time (it's still around here somewhere). You might have been technically able to trigger items on the screen with your fingers, but it was nearly useless without the stylus. The iPhone was in a completely other class in terms of finger input. Those other devices (if all windows mobile devices were like the iPaq) required a stylus as far as I'm concerned.