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Well the problem is that no one on the Right made a peep when Regan instituted the landline program in 1984. I don't remember anyone on the Right mentioning anything in 2008 when George W Bush started the Tracfone program. It was only when Barack Obama came into office that most of us found out this program, Which had been around for 24 years in one form or another, existed.

Had I known about it earlier I'd have railed against it then.
 
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Interesting. I was thinking along similar lines.

I would never have believed that I could become a fan of gridlock, but if that were the only way to stop a (god forbid) President Trump, I'd be in favor of it. Even more so if both parties were to band together to impeach him for cause. I've been a life-long anti-establishment guy, but I'd gladly join the establishment to stop something even worse from happening to my country. The enemy of my enemy, and all that.

Don't get me wrong. I want the establishment out of there, too. But not at the expense of installing a classless, moronic demagogue like Trump.

I agree. Normally, I would believe the will of the people should be honored but too much is at stake. Real wars could be started, our economy could go to crap if he makes our allies mad, our credit rating would probably go down, etc. He's already said he would gut the First Amendment by increasing the libel laws so he could sue anyone who was critical of him, which is the very reason for the first amendment. Of course, that's one of the many (all) things he says that he wouldn't actually have the power to do but just the thought of him being able to coerce the GOP into going along is too scary.
 
After parroting that phrase for eight years, you are just now finding this out?

Trump must love you.

I never heard of the Reagan or Bush phone. Like you said, it was only widely known about during BHOs reign. I also think the Obama administration really pushed the program more than previous administrations.
 
Well the problem is that no one on the Right made a peep when Regan instituted the landline program in 1984. I don't remember anyone on the Right mentioning anything in 2008 when George W Bush started the Tracfone program. It was only when Barack Obama came into office that most of us found out this program, Which had been around for 24 years in one form or another, existed.


It's when a program is abused is when eyebrows start to raise up.
 
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I agree. Normally, I would believe the will of the people should be honored but too much is at stake. Real wars could be started, our economy could go to crap if he makes our allies mad, our credit rating would probably go down, etc. He's already said he would gut the First Amendment by increasing the libel laws so he could sue anyone who was critical of him, which is the very reason for the first amendment. Of course, that's one of the many (all) things he says that he wouldn't actually have the power to do but just the thought of him being able to coerce the GOP into going along is too scary.

The will of the people should be honored, except if Trump is elected, right?
 
After parroting that phrase for eight years, you are just now finding this out?

Trump must love you.
I never heard of the Reagan or Bush phone. Like you said, it was only widely known about during BHOs reign. I also think the Obama administration really pushed the program more than previous administrations.

Do you know how long Barack Obama has been in office? Eight years.
 
Trump is a way out of the shell game that is politics today. Trump makes people and the elites uncomfortable because, well, he says stuff that people actually are thinking. Why does the US have to educate and support generations of illegal immigrants from Central and South America? Where is the responsibility of the Latin governments? Why does the US consider Saudi Arabia an ally, when half of the time they're working against US interests? Who really does benefit from free trade?

Why does the US have to educate people who live within our borders? We would be much worse off if we did not. And, having those people within our borders and taking jobs that full-blooded citizens would not take allows industries to exist in the US which otherwise could not.

Where is the responsibility of Latin governments? Within their own borders. They don't enjoy their workers leaving either. It is silly to believe that they are somehow benefiting from this situation.

Why does the US consider Saudi Arabia an ally? Well, the Cliff's Notes version is that we can have no allies in an area of the globe, or we can have imperfect allies. Insisting on sycophant states around the world is never going to work.

Who really does benefit from free trade? Generally speaking, the world benefits from free trade. On a selfish level, the US benefits less from free trade than more impoverished nations; the debate is if it is better for us in the US for the world economic level to rise year over year and for the average US citizen to be less extravagantly rich compared to the world average, or if we should prefer the world economic level to stagnate or even fall if it means that the difference between the average US citizen and the average world citizen gets wider.

Back on topic, the problem with Trump is none of this. The problem with Trump is that he is a demagogue. He incites fervor by giving easy answers to problems. Immigration? Build a wall (for $10B while the most generous estimate for what he has described is closer to $500B-$1Trillion just for the Mexico border, and that wall can be tunneled under and climbed over or swum around). Terrorism? Ban Muslims from entering the country (violating the Constitution and all precedent, and setting a nice big fire under the "holy war" rhetoric used by Jihadist factions to do harm to the US). "Obamacare"? Throw it out and let insurance be sold across state line (ignoring every economist who predicts a rapid race-to-the-bottom to the most permissive states and a skyrocketing of insurance and office administrative costs). Gay marriage? Trump opposes it (a hit for the crowd he is currently courting, as though he could do anything as President to put that genie back in the bottle). Foreign countries say bad stuff about us on Twitter? "Shut down the internet" in those countries (ignoring that that is practically impossible and the only effect it would have is to make the US look like more of an ******* than we already look like). ISIS gaining control of some Iraqi oil fields? "Bomb the hell out of" them. Oh, and kill their families too. Torture is banned by Geneva conventions? Pass a law to make them legal again, because the "bad guys" do worst and we're in the third grade where an excuse like that actually apparently sounds reasonable to some people. And we haven't even hit on his comments about how to deal with world leaders.

Demagoguery works to get people elected. It always has, since the first recorded examples in ancient Greece (where, in fact, the term comes from). It is a flaw in the system of democracy (especially representational democracy, the variant we follow here in the US) just as intrinsic as monopolies are a flaw in capitalism. As with monopolies, when the "system" fails, rational people need to recognize that and enhance the "system" so that it can not fail again or can at least defend itself from someone exploiting the weakness for their own personal gain. What demagoguery has never, ever accomplished is increasing the prosperity of the country upon which it is inflicted. The closest it has come is when that country - 1930s Germany as a prime example - is so beaten down that there is only upward potential, but even there most historians agree that the demagogues in question hurt their countries far more than they ever helped it.
 
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He knows how to create jobs and wealth. He is the only candidate that has ever built or created a product or service that anyone has been willing to pay for

Hmmm, he created jobs for illegal immigrants and immigrants on temporary work passes. And considering how many failed businesses and products he has, I dispute the other part of your post, too. Most of his declared wealth is from how much he THINKS the name Trump is worth licensing to people. And considering how he has outed himself as being a despicable human being, I wouldn't bank on a whole lot of new licensing for that name.

Why you would think a guy who creates a mortgage company shortly before the housing collapse and then fails miserably is some kind of brilliant businessman we should trust the entire US economy with is beyond my comprehension.
 
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......Sometimes the people have no idea what's good for them.
While that may be correct, in a true democracy, the people are always right, perhaps misguided, but always right as the will of the majority shall prevail. The alternative would be a dictatorship or communism where the will of one person or a handful of people, is imposed upon the rest of the population, and freedom or personal choices are severely restricted.

While democracy may not be 100% perfect, it allows the human spirit to soar, and enables individuals to reach their maximum potential. Democracies the world over are a beacon of hope for humankind, and this regularly becomes painfully obvious, when we see yet another example of those living under tyranny being prepared to leave all their worldly possessions behind and risk life and limb to join the way of life we usually take for granted.

Democracy is an all-or-nothing proposition. We unfortunately can't cherry-pick those aspects of democracy we like, while discarding those we disagree with. If we privately believe the majority has it wrong, the best we can hope for is, with our freedom of speech, through discussion to influence the viewpoint of those we think are misguided.
 
Oh how I wish this were the case. I don't even have confidence that our votes are counted accurately. Voter fraud is rampant. We need better, stronger voter ID laws.

I'd love to see your data for rampant voter fraud. Did you read it on the Alex Jones website?
 
The will of the people should be honored, except if Trump is elected, right?

As you should know, the rights of the minority should never be trampled over by the tyranny of the majority.

Prop. 8 should have taught you that.

BL.
 
That's a distinction without a difference and you know it. He's made the moratorium on Moslem entry into the U.S. a cornerstone of his foreign policy; God knows you can't hear a news report about him without it being reiterated in exasperation. That poll was taken March 1st, so it's not a question of ignorance on the part of those polled.

The thing I hear from more Trump supporters than anything else is "Oh, but that's not really what he believes. He's just saying that for the reaction. And it worked!"

I find it entirely likely that 11% of Muslims in the US would give Trump the "benefit of the doubt" that he is not really suggesting that they be deported, or just haven't fully understood what vile things he has promoted, just like the absolute worst leaders ever in our country rarely get below a 20% approval rating.
 
The will of the people should be honored, except if Trump is elected, right?

Don't worry. Clinton will be elected by popular vote and Trump will go back to selling crappy products with his name on it. Not sure who will start selling his products again but he can still sell them at his resorts. I stayed at his Doral resort in Miami a couple weeks ago, not my choice. Tackiest place I've ever stayed at and everything was labelled Trump down to the interlocking "T"s in the carpet and all the Trump toiletries made in Canada. Every worker there had a thick accent. Blech.
 
As you should know, the rights of the minority should never be trampled over by the tyranny of the majority.

Prop. 8 should have taught you that.

BL.

The majority didn't want gay marriage. And while I am not taking a stance for or against it, the voice of the people should not have been silenced by a single activist judge.*

* I don't remember if it was a single judge or a 3 judge panel.
 
Well the problem is that no one on the Right made a peep when Regan instituted the landline program in 1984. I don't remember anyone on the Right mentioning anything in 2008 when George W Bush started the Tracfone program. It was only when Barack Obama came into office that most of us found out this program, Which had been around for 24 years in one form or another, existed.

Okay yes, let's invalidate the ridiculousness of new taxpayer funded programs like free internet and free smart phones with stuff that was done 30 years ago.

Most of these things start out based on good intentions and helping people legitimately in need... the problem is the path to hell is paved with good intentions.... and social assistance has gone from being viewed as a helping hand up to now being an entitled handout.
[doublepost=1457473743][/doublepost]
Don't worry. Clinton will be elected by popular vote and Trump will go back to selling crappy products with his name on it. Not sure who will start selling his products again but he can still sell them at his resorts. I stayed at his Doral resort in Miami a couple weeks ago, not my choice. Tackiest place I've ever stayed at and everything was labelled Trump down to the interlocking "T"s in the carpet and all the Trump toiletries made in Canada. Every worker there had a thick accent. Blech.

I am ready to accept that Hillary very well could become president even though I think she's a criminal and will make a terrible leader.

Are you ready to accept Trump if he's elected, or will your head simply explode?
[doublepost=1457473803][/doublepost]
The thing I hear from more Trump supporters than anything else is "Oh, but that's not really what he believes. He's just saying that for the reaction. And it worked!"

I find it entirely likely that 11% of Muslims in the US would give Trump the "benefit of the doubt" that he is not really suggesting that they be deported, or just haven't fully understood what vile things he has promoted, just like the absolute worst leaders ever in our country rarely get below a 20% approval rating.

He hasn't talked about deporting muslims, he's talked about halting muslim immigration until we have better vetting processes in place. Distort much?
 
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Yeah, I need data that proves voter fraud, not people saying they thought they saw something and a programmer saying a REPUBLICAN hired him to write code that COULD be used to create fraud. ACTUAL studies have been done on possible voter fraud and the numbers were so tiny it's laughable. Members of the GOP have already admitted that voter ID laws are solely meant to keep people who tend to vote Democrat out of the voting booth.
 
Hmmm, he created jobs for illegal immigrants and immigrants on temporary work passes. And considering how many failed businesses and products he has, I dispute the other part of your post, too. Most of his declared wealth is from how much he THINKS the name Trump is worth licensing to people. And considering how he has outed himself as being a despicable human being, I wouldn't bank on a whole lot of new licensing for that name.

Why you would think a guy who creates a mortgage company shortly before the housing collapse and then fails miserably is some kind of brilliant businessman we should trust the entire US economy with is beyond my comprehension.

Yes because turning it over to a community organizer who outsourced it to a bunch of wall street hacks has worked out so well for us.

If progressives are so terrified at the thought of a Trump presidency they should have fielded better candidates than Free Ice Cream Grandpa Simpson and the Wicked Witch of The West.
 
Okay yes, let's invalidate the ridiculousness of new taxpayer funded programs like free internet and free smart phones with stuff that was done 30 years ago.

Most of these things start out based on good intentions and helping people legitimately in need... the problem is the path to hell is paved with good intentions.... and social assistance has gone from being viewed as a helping hand up to now being an entitled handout.
[doublepost=1457473743][/doublepost]

I am ready to accept that Hillary very well could become president even though I think she's a criminal and will make a terrible leader.

Are you ready to accept Trump if he's elected, or will your head simply explode?
[doublepost=1457473803][/doublepost]

He hasn't talked about deporting muslims, he's talked about halting muslim immigration until we have better vetting processes in place. Distort much?

Trump hasn't talked about deporting Muslims? All 11 million? WTF? Did you come out of your sound-proof cave just recently or what?
 
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