Two thoughts

[iSayBoourns]

No matter how good it eventually becomes you still have to point the camera to your face for scan and comparison.
By the time I pull the phone out of my pocket it's already unlocked with my finger and inside the home screen.
While I have it laying flat on my desk the camera points to the ceiling. I don't have to lift it up to my face to do things I need done.

At what point in the steps the unlocking happens is irrelevant. You still have to look at your device to use it. Wether you’re looking at it after it’s unlocked (in your example of placing your finger on the reader as you’re pulling the phone out of pocket) or if you’re looking at it before the unlock happens . At the end of the day it’s the same steps.

TouchID:
- pull out phone
- place finger on sensor
- look at phone to use.
(Steps one and two can be interchangeable in their order done)

FaceID:
- pull out phone
- look at phone
- swipe up

It’s in the documentation and in an image during the keynote that it will/can work at angles, such as flat on your desk.

 

[eyoungren]

Please point me towards another smartphone that offers face recognition that uses 3D mapping for accurate multiple data point and has the same security level as what’s on the iPhone X. Not to mention the other uses the data gathered by the 3D mapping can be implemented. No one has done that before in any smartphone. That is somethin brand new wether you agree or not. You’re just salty about camera bumps and obsess about using words like “fugly” over and over as an adult.

I can't point you to one that does the same thing.

But I know other manufacturers have done facial recognition before.

You are equating breakthrough with technology that improves upon or solves a problem.

I am equating breakthrough with first to do, or intial.

Apple was not the first to do facial technology.

As to camera bumps and my 'obsession' in using the word fugly I won't apologize. Meeting someone else's standards or approval isn't my problem or concern.

 

[Applejuiced]

Off course I agree.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything they don't see fit for their needs.
Just stating my views on it that's all.
The smartphone tech has been around for over 10 years.
Prices keep going up for marginal yearly improvements to a product that there isn't much that can be done to make groundbreaking. You can't reinvent the wheel every year.
But keep adding a few marginal improvements each year that have been around for years and done by competitors before and try to charge $300+ extra for it? For what a beta test product?
You'll eventually run out of people seeing the value in upgrading and throwing their money away.

Remember, you don't have to buy the X. You can wait for the price of the new tech to come down when an SE like version comes. Those TVs have tech that have been around for 5+ years, hence the lower price. If you want the newest and greatest TV, you'll pay a premium -- Have you seen the LG tvs that are like a sheet of paper? tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[iSayBoourns]

I would say its edge would be a smaller notch or eliminate the notch entirely, that would give better aesthetic than the X. Or maybe utilize a dual authentication system to beat out the security of FaceID. Idk, I just want to see companies do things differently rather than follow one another.

The notch would still exist if the TouchID were to be embedded under the display. You still need a spot for the front facing camera, proximity sensor, earpiece and mic. TouchID doesn’t change that.

 

[Applejuiced]

Yes but many times you are not looking directly to the front facing camera when you're using the phone.
Many will notice that once they start using the iPhone x and will get sick of the selfies and positioning the phone to the right angle to unlock it
You'll notice what you think or what Apple is advertising in the documentation is not real life use. A camera that faces straight up will not catch your face features and unlock using face id when not in direct view to scan you.

At what point in the steps the unlocking happens is irrelevant. You still have to look at your device to use it. Wether you’re looking at it after it’s unlocked (in your example of placing your finger on the reader as you’re pulling the phone out of pocket) or if you’re looking at it before the unlock happens . At the end of the day it’s the same steps.

TouchID:
- pull out phone
- place finger on sensor
- look at phone to use.
(Steps one and two can be interchangeable in their order done)

FaceID:
- pull out phone
- look at phone
- swipe up

It’s in the documentation and in an image during the keynote that it will/can work at angles, such as flat on your desk.

 

[iSayBoourns]

I can't point you to one that does the same thing.

But I know other manufacturers have done facial recognition before.

You are equating breakthrough with technology that improves upon or solves a problem.

I am equating breakthrough with first to do, or intial.

Apple was not the first to do facial technology.

As to camera bumps and my 'obsession' in using the word fugly I won't apologize. Meeting someone else's standards or approval isn't my problem or concern.

Yes others have done face recognition before. But they are flimsy at best and can be fooled by literally pointing a photo at it. At that point it’s just a gimmick and not a real method of authentication, because it lacks all forms of security.

Apple is rarely first to anything, but in a lot of cases best at doing it when they bring their version to market. History has proven this tone and time again. It’s their implementation that is breakthrough. Because no one else has been able to do it with a security level that can rival and potentially beat our current method of authentication.

 

[eyoungren]

Yes others have done face recognition before. But they are flimsy at best and can be fooled by literally pointing a photo at it. At that point it’s just a gimmick and not a real method of authentication, because it lacks all forms of security.

Apple is rarely first to anything, but in a lot of cases best at doing it when they bring their version to market. History has proven this tone and time again. It’s their implementation that is breakthrough. Because no one else has been able to do it with a security level that can rival and potentially beat our current method of authentication.

You point out what I have always liked about Apple. They refine things and do things better.

FWIW, you make fair points and I acknowledge that. We just don't see the word "breakthrough" in the same light is all.

 

[Ralfi]

FWIW, you make fair points and I acknowledge that. We just don't see the word "breakthrough" in the same light is all.

So many posts focussing on a word, when you agreed all along....

 

[iSayBoourns]

Yes but many times you are not looking directly to the front facing camera when you're using the phone.
Many will notice that once they start using the iPhone x and will get sick of the selfies and positioning the phone to the right angle to unlock it
You'll notice what you think or what Apple is advertising in the documentation is not real life use. A camera that faces straight up will not catch your face features and unlock using face id when not in direct view to scan you.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re meaning. You won’t need to extend the phone out and find the perfect angle (a la taking a selfie pose)

If the documentation says it will work at angles and they literally had an image on their slide someone in a swimming pool looking at it at an angle (with beams to represent the IR+dot mapping happening) then it will work at an angle. What angle? We don’t know yet. Could be shallow or could be a fairly wide angle.

Also pretty sure you won’t literally have to look into the camera. It just needs to see your face, see your eyes are open and at least looking towards the screen (IE how one would naturally look at their device.)

So the steps I mentioned in a previous post still stand. It will be seamless and many hands on videos can back a lot of its accuracy up.
[doublepost=1507434978][/doublepost]

You point out what I have always liked about Apple. They refine things and do things better.

FWIW, you make fair points and I acknowledge that. We just don't see the word "breakthrough" in the same light is all.

Fair enough

 

[eyoungren]

So many posts focussing on a word, when you agreed all along....

Please do not assume.

I agree that Apple refines things. But my definition of breathrough is not the same as @iSayBoourns definition. So we do not agree from that standpoint.

The points I acknowledge that he made were related to Apple refining things and doing a batter job of it than others. But to me, that's not a breakthrough. It is to iSayBoourns.

 

[Applejuiced]

We'll have to wait and see but if I'm nowhere near the view of the phone but reach on the right of my desk with my finger to view a quick notification.
I don't think that's going to happen with face id or the fast speed of current Touch ID has.
But it's all assumptions for now

I’m not sure I understand what you’re meaning. You won’t need to extend the phone out and find the perfect angle (a la taking a selfie pose)

If the documentation says it will work at angles and they literally had an image on their slide someone in a swimming pool looking at it at an angle (with beams to represent the IR+dot mapping happening) then it will work at an angle. What angle? We don’t know yet. Could be shallow or could be a fairly wide angle.

Also pretty sure you won’t literally have to look into the camera. It just needs to see your face, see your eyes are open and at least looking towards the screen (IE how one would naturally look at their device.)

So the steps I mentioned in a previous post still stand. It will be seamless and many hands on videos can back a lot of its accuracy up.
[doublepost=1507434978][/doublepost]

Fair enough

 

[iSayBoourns]

Yes but many times you are not looking directly to the front facing camera when you're using the phone.
Many will notice that once they start using the iPhone x and will get sick of the selfies and positioning the phone to the right angle to unlock it
You'll notice what you think or what Apple is advertising in the documentation is not real life use. A camera that faces straight up will not catch your face features and unlock using face id when not in direct view to scan you.

Found the image that was used in the keynote slide that someone in another thread added lines to.

This shows that it can potentially work flat on a desk if need be
[doublepost=1507436095][/doublepost]

Please do not assume.

I agree that Apple refines things. But my definition of breathrough is not the same as @iSayBoourns definition. So we do not agree from that standpoint.

The points I acknowledge that he made were related to Apple refining things and doing a batter job of it than others. But to me, that's not a breakthrough. It is to iSayBoourns.

I will say this and ask you about the term “breakthrough”.

Say for example there are some pills available that can help mitigate a disease. Is it not a breakthrough in medical science when someone comes out with a new pill that is far for effective or possible virtually eliminate the disease? It’s literally the term used in medical science “a breakthrough in medical science”. Apple’s FaceID is that better, more effective pill essentially.

 

[Applejuiced]

Yes but thats flat on the desk with the user leaning towards it.
Try that with what I was suggesting where the phone is not in front of the user.
My computer screen, keyboard and mouse is where that iPhone x is located.
And my phone is further off to the right of the desk.
It's not going to be able to see or scan my face.

Found the image that was used in the keynote slide that someone in another thread added lines to.View attachment 724292

This shows that it can potentially work flat on a desk if need be
[doublepost=1507436095][/doublepost]

[doublepost=1507436737][/doublepost]

Found the image that was used in the keynote slide that someone in another thread added lines to.View attachment 724292


Say for example there are some pills available that can help mitigate a disease. Is it not a breakthrough in medical science when someone comes out with a new pill that is far for effective or possible virtually eliminate the disease? It’s literally the term used in medical science “a breakthrough in medical science”. Apple’s FaceID is that better, more effective pill essentially.

Lmao
Yes we're now comparing a gimmick smartphone feature update to breakthrough medical science life saving accomplishments.
Sure, same thing

 

[Ralfi]

Lmao
Yes we're now comparing a gimmick smartphone feature update to breakthrough medical science life saving accomplishments.
Sure, same thing

Why did you just take the condescending route instead of discussing things sensibly?

Never seen a forum where so much patronising occurs...

 

[iSayBoourns]

Yes but thats flat on the desk with the user leaning towards it.
Try that with what I was suggesting where the phone is not in front of the user.
My computer screen, keyboard and mouse is where that iPhone x is located.
And my phone is further off to the right of the desk.
It's not going to be able to see or scan my face.

If you’re just trying to glance at a notification why not just press the side button to turn on the screen and view the lock screen with your notifications? Or better yet iPhone 10 has Tap to Wake and you don’t even have to reach for the side button.

Lmao
Yes we're now comparing a gimmick smartphone feature update to breakthrough medical science life saving accomplishments.
Sure, same thing

The term “breakthrough” still applies equally in both. Obviously a smartphone feature isn’t even in the same league as a life saving pill (or whatever) but at the core of the comparison it applies. Something exists and something solving the same thing comes and is miles better than what already was available.

 

[Applejuiced]

Discussing an electronic devices feature and then comparing it to scientific medical life saving advances?
Seriously?

Why did you just take the condescending route instead of discussing things sensibly?

Never seen a forum where so much patronising occurs...

[doublepost=1507438591][/doublepost]Glancing doesn't need unlocking.
Replying to texts for example or providing any input passed the lock screen would not work.

If you’re just trying to glance at a notification why not just press the side button to turn on the screen and view the lock screen with your notifications? Or better yet iPhone 10 has Tap to Wake and you don’t even have to reach for the side button.



The term “breakthrough” still applies equally in both. Obviously a smartphone feature isn’t even in the same league as a life saving pill (or whatever) but at the core of the comparison it applies. Something exists and something solving the same thing comes and is miles better than what already was available.

 

[iSayBoourns]

Discussing an electronic devices feature and then comparing it to scientific medical life saving advances?
Seriously?

It’s whats called an analogy. It’s not directly comparing them to one another but the situation instead. IE why is one thing considered a breakthrough and not the other. When in both cases it’s a matter of something already existing for something and then something new tackling the same thing being better comes along.
[doublepost=1507438820][/doublepost]

Glancing doesn't need unlocking.
Replying to texts for example or providing any input passed the lock screen would not work.

Wouldn’t one need to pick up the device to begin tying out a response to a text? That’s generally what people do when they want to type on their phone.

 

[Applejuiced]

It's a very bad analogy and comparison imo

I don't need to pick up my phone or bring it near my face to type a text reply though.

It’s whats called an analogy. It’s not directly comparing them to one another but the situation instead. IE why is one thing at the considered a breakthrough and not the other. When in both cases it’s a matter of something already existing for something and then something new tackling the same thing being better comes along.
[doublepost=1507438820][/doublepost]

Wouldn’t one need to pick up the device to begin tying out a response to a text?

 

[iSayBoourns]

It's a very bad analogy and comparison imo

I don't need to pick up my phone or bring it near my face to type a text reply though.

That’s only your opinion because it doesn’t fit your logic.

But if you’re picking up your phone to type on the keyboard to reply to a text you’re bringing the device in view of your face and therefore would naturally unlock and be ready for you to reply. TouchID doesn’t magically remove the need to look at your phone to type a reply.

 

[flat five]

By the time I pull the phone out of my pocket it's already unlocked with my finger and inside the home screen.

everybody always says this.. but let's be honest here for a minute..

how often do you use your phone that way?

for one, it's completely unnatural of a motion to be picking a phone up -- upside down-- while pinched vertically with your thumb on one end.. (unnatural.. not impossible)

it puts your phone in a vulnerable state to be dropped and you subconsciously try to protect it during that type of motion.

but for real.. how often do you actually use the phone in the way you're describing in the argument?
i'm willing to bet that 99%+ touchID unlocks , when the phone started out in the user's pocket, happen once the phone is palmed and facing up..
ie- the same position the phone will be in for faceID.

 

[44267547]

1. Many people hating Apple for the premium price of FaceID. Honestly that’s the price we pay for breakthrough tech. The auto industry bumps prices of the same car when new features and tech are introduced. Why do people expect Apple to introduce new tech at the same price???

2. Rumors about other companies ditching under display fingerprint tech in favor of facial recognition is dumb. I hope another company chooses to not follow Apple and rather push to perfect the new under-display-tech. This will provide the competitive edge we desperately need in the phone industry.

1.) Too many times, in comparison, I always don't find it appropriate to use car comparisons to technology. In the case of the notch and iPhone X, it's just a matter if you choose to support it with your funds or not. I don't think everyone expects Apple to introduce new technology at the same starting price as the iPhone 8, but we all know Apple products are very expensive and they carry a hefty price tag. Not to mention, this is one of the first times were brinking on the verge of a starting price of $1000 for a smart phone incorporating a new form of security.

2.) No doubt Apple is a trendsetter. They always have been and the technology with Face ID to really determine its overall future as of yet. But if it is successful, it will easily succeed to other Apple products and other competitors will likely follow with other forms of biometric security.

 

[iSayBoourns]

everybody always says this.. but let's be honest here for a minute..

how often do you use your phone that way?

for one, it's completely unnatural of a motion to be picking a phone up -- upside down-- while pinched vertically with your thumb on one end.. (unnatural.. not impossible)

it puts your phone in a vulnerable state to be dropped and you subconsciously try to protect it during that type of motion.

but for real.. how often do you actually use the phone in the way you're describing in the argument?
i'm willing to bet that 99%+ touchID unlocks , when the phone started out in the user's pocket, happen once the phone is palmed and facing up..
ie- the same position the phone will be in for faceID.

Of course everyone always says it. Because it’s a cherry picked scenario they can use against it, regardless of how often it happens in normal use cases for the majority. Just how people are using landscape web browsing as the ultimate negative on the iPhone 10 (due to it not being as wide as a Plus size screen.) Even though the majority of total smartphone users are likely to browse in portrait (I even provided a chart from a study that showed in the range of 5”- 6” screens, only 10% of what people did on their phones were in landscape. Assuming watching videos on YouTube and the like making the bulk of that.)

 

[KhunJay]

At the risk of sounding tech phobic, I will say that I find touch id, face id and even audio siri to be gimmicky.

I have no inclination to talk to a device, register my fingerprint or face map on someone else's database where it can live forever
and possibly run the risk of being compromised.

I saw a documentary on digital security where they discussed that the argument being used to slowly entrench these technologies among less savvy folks (millennials) who don't think consequences through fully was:

WHY SHOULD YOU WORRY IF YOU HAVENT' DONE ANYTHING WRONG?

The implication being that anyone who raises concerns is automatically someone with something to hide.

FWIW I would never use such tech....so even if I got the X face ID would remain de-activated...Id just use my pin.

 

[iSayBoourns]

At the risk of sounding tech phobic, I will say that I find touch id, face id and even audio siri to be gimmicky.

I have no inclination to talk to a device, register my fingerprint or face map on someone else's database where it can live forever
and possibly run the risk of being compromised.

I saw a documentary on digital security where they discussed that the argument being used to slowly entrench these technologies among less savvy folks (millennials) who don't think consequences through fully was:

WHY SHOULD YOU WORRY IF YOU HAVENT' DONE ANYTHING WRONG?

The implication being that anyone who raises concerns is automatically someone with something to hide.

FWIW I would never use such tech....so even if I got the X face ID would remain de-activated...Id just use my pin.

For starters. Your fingerprint and soon to be face scan are not stored on someone else’s database. That data is all stored locally on device, encrypted within the dedicated secure enclave chip.

 

[flat five]

At the risk of sounding tech phobic, I will say that I find touch id, face id and even audio siri to be gimmicky.

I have no inclination to talk to a device, register my fingerprint or face map on someone else's database where it can live forever
[...]
FWIW I would never use such tech....so even if I got the X face ID would remain de-activated...Id just use my pin.

i think you might just be better off not using the phone at all.
pretty sure if your scenario is true, that the phones are secretly sending your biometric data off to some data center instead of remaining strictly in the secure enclave..

if that is true then i'm about 100% sure they're secretly scanning your face with or without your approval and regardless of using the faceID feature.

--------
for clarity-- i'm not trying to ridicule the concern.. i think it's a valid concern and something all users should at least question or consider to some extent..

my point is more about-- if they built this phone in order to extract/store your facial data then... you can be assured the phone will be scanning your face no matter what settings/preferences you may choose.
wouldn't you think?