U.K. Surveillance Powers Are 'Illegal', Rules E.U.'s Highest Court

[nt5672]

. . . .
The more worrying thing is this. Unless someone is looking out for the little people who is going to stop the government from extending this and creating something far worse than the rampant snooping Snowden revealed to the world? . . . . .

This is by far the biggest threat we face today. There is no one to stop the government. They can (in the US) jail you without cause (they have to call it terrorism), they can take your property without cause (they just have to call your property drug profits or declare seizure in the public interest), they can take your money without cause (they just have to have a made up IRS decision), etc. In the desire for efficiently the US government has bypassed both the claim of "innocent until proven guilty", and the right to a fair trial. If you are rich enough of course you can get these decisions reversed.

No government looks out for the little guy. They only way to protect minorities and the poor is with guns. Governments are afraid of an armed populous, and they should be. That is why every dictatorship disarms the population, stops free speech, stops peaceful assembly, etc. At the end of the day it is the volume of little guys and gals that keep government in check. That is why we have the amendments to the US Constitution. When the little guys were in charge (our founding fathers) they saw the need to protect those rights. Lets hope we don't have to go to war again to keep them.

 

[apolloa]

Yeah, a dictatorship that actually looks out for Human rights violations.. Fancy that..

You mean those human rights that allow convicted criminals in jail like peodophiles and rapists to vote, terrorist preachers to come into the country and preach hatred and violence towards the west and the western society. Yeah what great human rights those are! The human rights bill is one of the worst things to happen to this country from the EU.

So this is how it works, put some fear into peole and they'll throw away their rights at the blink of an eye. Again, not trying to get cliche here, but tens of thousands of people fought and died to protect those rights (think WW2) and now, since youre a little nervous about terrorists, you want to throw away what they fought so hard for.
Your great grandparents are probably rolling over in their graves right now.

Actually millions fought and died for the right to a democracy and to vote, the democracy the EU has and wants to take away, laws made up by unelected members, they did not fight for the human rights bill. Your deluded if you think that it's somehow great and we need it. No, we are more then capable of respecting rights without resorting to EU laws being forced upon us that allow terrorist clerics to hold hate speech events on the streets, that allow Muslims to stand on the side street and protest at British soldiers as their dead bodies are driven past in coffins.

What are you on about.
Further this bill won't offer any more security because anyone with nefarious intentions can bypass it's effects. Only the most naive or cynical motives could have come up with this nonsese and my suspicion is that it perhaps started as naive and matured into cynicism. And please don't counter that you're not worried because you've nothing to hide. It's also a problem when our decision makers have something to hide because they are then ripe for blackmail.

No, only the naive believe you can bypass these systems actually. In the UK we have so many CCTV cameras which save lives, the intelligence services in the UK are amongst the best and if they want more tools to save us from attack then fine, everything you do is recorded anyway so it's no different. It's just potty liberalist labour members who spout human rights and fear mongering if we leave the EU that hold back this countries security.
And what the hell are you on about blackmail for? That literally makes no sense what so ever...

If you lot want this security to stop then don't live in a part of the world that supports and acts in war with another part of the world.
But don't forget to be a total hypocrite and complain and warn about Russia when it does the exact same thing.

 

[niun]

You mean those human rights that allow convicted criminals to vote, terrorist preachers to come into the country and preach hatred and violence towards the west and the western society. Yeah what great human rights those are! The human rights bill is one of the worst things to happen to this country from the EU.

Are you by any chance an avid reader of the Daily Mail?

Oh and by human rights you mean basic Freedom of Speech, but that has been sliced and diced by the terrorism bill.
Edit: this would now be considered hate speech and prosecuted under our laws. This was done whilst we we're still in the EU and they didn't appear to step in and stop it.

 

[apolloa]

Are you by any chance an avid reader of the Daily Mail?

Oh and by human rights you mean basic Freedom of Speech, but that has been sliced and diced by the terrorism bill.
Edit: this would now be considered hate speech and prosecuted under our laws. This was done whilst we we're still in the EU and they didn't appear to step in and stop it.

Nope, do you read The Sun? I mean the human rights bill that is flawed and corrupt and more suited to protect criminals then common people. The one I will be glad to see the back off.
I presume you support hate speech if you support the human rights bill? Do you think the UK is somehow incapable of coming up with its own human rights bill that protects its people who don't murder or sexually abuse children or insight hate speech then?

 

[theBostonian]

Couldn't they just ban Islam instead of monitoring every single citizen?

 

[niun]

Nope, do you read The Sun? I mean the human rights bill that is flawed and corrupt and more suited to protect criminals then common people. The one I will be glad to see the back off.

Not since they ditched page 3 and the only news they actually covered. I do read the mail though and your post above is an echo of the stuff they always preach which is an echo of what UKIP, the BNP and Combat 18 used to preach.

Swings and roundabouts though. Those same right also protect people that are wrongly accused, imprisoned and put through hell.

 

[TheRealTVGuy]

Meanwhile, in the U.S. we're still dealing with the Patriot Act & the damn TSA...

 

[apolloa]

Not since they ditched page 3 and the only news they actually covered. I do read the mail though and your post above is an echo of the stuff they always preach which is an echo of what UKIP, the BNP and Combat 18 used to preach.

Swings and roundabouts though. Those same right also protect people that are wrongly accused, imprisoned and put through hell.

Those rights are corrupt and should be scrapped end off. Their is no swings and roundabouts. We can leave the EU and come up with our own bill that's a lot better. I've seen it used far far far too many times since the Blair era for very wrong reasons to want it in anything like its current state.

Never heard of combat 18. UKIP are fantastic as they forced the government into letting us have a vote on the EU, they hadn't done much else though. And the BNP, I have no idea what their views are as I don't go reading about them but I guess you do?

 

[niun]

Never heard of combat 18. UKIP are fantastic as they forced the government into letting us have a vote on the EU, they hadn't done much else though. And the BNP, I have no idea what their views are as I don't go reading about them but I guess you do?

Yes I do.. I have a very real interest in my own country and read up - investigate and take as much interest in as many things as possible.
That includes looking at the nastier, grittier side of British life. If you've not heard of the BNP then maybe their most recent offshoot, Britain First must have caught your attention.

 

[apolloa]

Yes I do.. I have a very real interest in my own country and read up - investigate and take as much interest in as many things as possible.
That includes looking at the nastier, grittier side of British life. If you've not heard of the BNP then maybe their most recent offshoot, Britain First must have caught your attention.

Of course I've heard of the BNP, I've never heard of Combat 18, and Britain First? Maybe they were mentioned once in the news for some bielection perhaps???

 

[niun]

Right, I've just been through the Human Rights Act of 1998 and the European Convention on Human Rights and the proposed British Bill of Rights....

The proposed British Bill of Rights would have sorted many issues if our government would have pushed it through back in 2015. However the ones fighting that were Scotland, not the EU - although the EU did warn that enacting the BBR could result in a break from the EU.

Going by todays article I'm actually worried about what the new human rights act would look like.
Civil liberty advocates have expressed concern that the proposed changes (BBR) would "erode the right to life, the right to privacy, the right to a fair trial, the right to protest and the right to freedom from torture and discrimination".
[doublepost=1482352927][/doublepost]

Those rights are corrupt and should be scrapped end off. Their is no swings and roundabouts. We can leave the EU and come up with our own bill that's a lot better. I've seen it used far far far too many times since the Blair era for very wrong reasons to want it in anything like its current state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom

There, bit of interesting reading for you..

 

[manhattanboy]

This is by far the biggest threat we face today. There is no one to stop the government. They can (in the US) jail you without cause (they have to call it terrorism), they can take your property without cause (they just have to call your property drug profits or declare seizure in the public interest), they can take your money without cause (they just have to have a made up IRS decision), etc. In the desire for efficiently the US government has bypassed both the claim of "innocent until proven guilty", and the right to a fair trial. If you are rich enough of course you can get these decisions reversed.

No government looks out for the little guy. They only way to protect minorities and the poor is with guns. Governments are afraid of an armed populous, and they should be. That is why every dictatorship disarms the population, stops free speech, stops peaceful assembly, etc. At the end of the day it is the volume of little guys and gals that keep government in check. That is why we have the amendments to the US Constitution. When the little guys were in charge (our founding fathers) they saw the need to protect those rights. Lets hope we don't have to go to war again to keep them.

Why can't there be more people with your insight? We get a thoughtful post like yours followed on the same page by comments like the one below:

Couldn't they just ban Islam instead of monitoring every single citizen?

 

[Jambalaya]

A perfect example of why I voted Leave. In 2019 we will take back control of our country and our laws.

Can any American here say they wouod accept the Supreme Court to be in Mexico City and staffed by judges appointed by NAFTA ? By the way we don't have a constitution to protect us, the European Commission and it's court can do pretty much what it wants.

The most basic human right and civil liberty is to the right to be alive and not murdered by a terrorist
[doublepost=1482354168][/doublepost]

Sometimes I f**king hate this stupid country and it's ridiculous government. I didn't vote for Brexit and I didn't vote for Theresa May...what part of this is democracy?

Well if you vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party (link below) you'll never get the Government you voted for. Is that undemocratic ? The UK is not a Presidential democracy, we don't vote for the leader we voted for a party to govern.

http://www.omrlp.com/

 

[niun]

The most basic human right and civil liberty is to the right to be alive and not murdered by a terrorist

Yeah, I think that's covered already.

 

[Futurix]

You mean those human rights that allow convicted criminals in jail like peodophiles and rapists to vote, terrorist preachers to come into the country and preach hatred and violence towards the west and the western society. Yeah what great human rights those are! The human rights bill is one of the worst things to happen to this country from the EU.

Try reading less of fear-mongering tabloids and realise that they only report on the most outrageous case (and often outright make up the stories). They don't report about 99.99999% of cases where the law works as it supposed to - cause that ain't news.

the democracy the EU has and wants to take away, laws made up by unelected members

But they are elected!
You just never bothered to vote, haven't you?

everything you do is recorded anyway so it's no different

Yes, why bother and try making the world a better place?

 

[0098386]

I just hope they will take IN campaigners in easily...

I imagine so. It makes sense to appeal to economic migrants, would be a huge surge for their new economy.

 

[0004838]

Being an American, and living stateside, I don't have a direct dealing with this issue at hand per se, but I do find it interesting that so many are OK with the massive CCTV surveillance implementation within the U.K. where virtually EVERY move u make is recorded 24 hours a day but not ok with this.

CC being the operative initials here: Closed Circuit. That is, not intended for or open to mass dissemination.

I understand the mass collection of all electronic data from all citizens is a breach of certain civil liberties yes

The casualness with which you state this strongly implies a reluctance to view these civil liberties as being of crucial importance. Not for nothing did Patrick Henry declare, "Give me liberty, or give me death!" when attempting to convince delegates for the need to send troops against Great Britain in the American War of Independence!

but I also understand the issue with the large* amount of terrorist activities that are conducted within the EU as well as the large influx* of both terrorists and terrorist indoctrination groups working within the border that pose a much larger threat to the safety of all.

* I take issue with this characterisation. Where's the evidence?

[snip for time, but there was much to be discussed here]

And as a military veteran, I personally do not feel that this action is a contradiction for the freedoms I fought to protect as a solider of the ended goal is to protect the nation.

Define, "nation" - is it the people, the state, the land, a combination of all three or something else? Its ambiguity is crucial:

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

(from Dulce et Decorum Est, by Wilfred Owen)

The "patria" can be anything you want: the king, the people, the flag, that set of streets you grew up in… The vagueness of the term encourages you to fill the gap with whatever you most want to fight for.

The trade off of more privacy for citizens doing nothing wrong in an attempt to identify threats to national and sovereign security is an acceptable trade off for me.

Emphasis mine. You sound passionate, but not well educated. Have you read 1984 or read or seen V For Vendetta? Have you heard of the Stasi and the KGB? Are they organisations you respect? Germany created laws in 1935 for the protection of German blood and honour that allowed them to separate Jews from the populace under their control. Because it is a Law and because it is declared to be for the benefit of the country or the people does not make it so!

 

[Wahlstrm]

This EU-decision also saved us Swedes from basically the same thing.

So, for maybe the first time ever: Thank you EU.

 

[apolloa]

Try reading less of fear-mongering tabloids and realise that they only report on the most outrageous case (and often outright make up the stories). They don't report about 99.99999% of cases where the law works as it supposed to - cause that ain't news.


But they are elected!
You just never bothered to vote, haven't you?


Yes, why bother and try making the world a better place?

Firstly I read all sorts of media, and listen to people that speak too. So I am happy where I get my news from thanks and have no wish to change it because you don't agree with my views.
Secondly no they are not elected, please do explain how they are.

And thirdly no idea what your last comment is supposed to mean.
[doublepost=1482363400][/doublepost]

Right, I've just been through the Human Rights Act of 1998 and the European Convention on Human Rights and the proposed British Bill of Rights....

The proposed British Bill of Rights would have sorted many issues if our government would have pushed it through back in 2015. However the ones fighting that were Scotland, not the EU - although the EU did warn that enacting the BBR could result in a break from the EU.

Going by todays article I'm actually worried about what the new human rights act would look like.
Civil liberty advocates have expressed concern that the proposed changes (BBR) would "erode the right to life, the right to privacy, the right to a fair trial, the right to protest and the right to freedom from torture and discrimination".
[doublepost=1482352927][/doublepost]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom

There, bit of interesting reading for you..

They would be sensible human rights is what they would be, I certainly wouldn't listen to civil libertys groups 'erode the right to life'?? But I would have faith in the British people. Lots of exciting times ahead providing the government does the negotiations right and takes us out.

 

[NY Guitarist]

"Those who give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

 

[GigabitEthernet]

I really am undecided about the so-called "Snooper's Charter".

On the one hand I value privacy but on the other hand countries such as France and Germany whom have less invasive privacy laws have had multiple terrorist attacks recently and the UK hasn't had any.

 

[Altis]

Regardless of how you feel about the law, it's always interesting to see the E.U. flex its power over its states... kind of shows why so many don't want to be under it given that they don't have control over it.

You can always take the U.K. parliament to task for their policies, at least.

 

[vvswarup]

The threat of an attack unifies a populace like none other. Using the threat of an attack to justify blatant power-grabbing is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Throughout history, governments have used this tool to great effect. That's why I wouldn't believe a word of it without some proof if the government said that it needed me to give up my privacy in order to keep me safe.

In a congressional investigation on 9/11, I don't think a lack of intelligence was ever mentioned as a reason why the attack couldn't be foiled.

 

[niun]

I really am undecided about the so-called "Snooper's Charter".

On the one hand I value privacy but on the other hand countries such as France and Germany whom have less invasive privacy laws have had multiple terrorist attacks recently and the UK hasn't had any.

It is very strange though how both French and German intelligence services knew full details about these terrorists, where they were and were keeping tabs on them until a month, week, day before the terrorist did something terrible.

Before the bus bombings in London our spooks were keeping tabs on the terrorists and failed to prevent that - whilst at the same time managing to gun down a perfectly innocent man.

So in each of these cases, they know who they are and where they are. Having a 12 month history of their web browsing isn't going to make a difference.

 

[steve62388]

I never understand why people are so against this. If you're doing nothing wrong (and have nothing to hide) you have nothing to worry about. Same with CCTV. Is your life really that interesting?

You won't mind me browsing through your mobile phone then.