U.K. Surveillance Powers Are 'Illegal', Rules E.U.'s Highest Court

[sim667]

From an outside perspective though, (one example) isn't the immigration and refugee situation with lack of assimilation becoming a big issue that is forced down each EU member's throat without recourse?

It just seems to me that each country is different and faces different challenges so the EU "prescribing" the same medicine across the board for all countries would not be a good thing. I would compare it to the US federal government passing blanket laws for all US states when really they should be handled by each individual state, as different states have completely different challenges.

Freedom of movement within the EU is part and parcel of being in the single market. Thats already very clear, economically is pretty much undoubtable we will suffer without single market access, or freedom of movement.

Anti immigration sentiment is largely due to some kind of notion that immigrants are simultaneously stealing everyones jobs and everyones benefits. But actually all research points to immigration have a net economic benefit, and that immigrants are far less likely to claim benefits and far more likely to pay into social systems.

The lack of assimilation is nothing to do with the EU, thats each countries responsibility to handle, and additionally the EU does not prescribe levels of the amount of refugees that should be accepted into countries without discussion and vote from all the Union members either.

 

[Porco]

I understand why Brexit is being brought into the comments, but the issues are really much wider than that.

This sort of stuff is happening all over the world and if you think 'thank goodness I don't live in the UK where this is happening...' well it either already probably is on a smaller scale but without an announcement, or it could do very soon.

Brexit is a total side issue in relation to this, IMHO, and we're talking about the freedom of the internet-using world.

 

[gnasher729]

I hear being Trumps pet pays handsomely.

Well, Trump seems to believe that Frogface is of any importance in the UK. The reason why Trump believes it is because Farage thoroughly agrees with him, and that's what Trump neeeeeds.

 

[NeilHD]

You could also say they people not showing up to vote didn't care enough about the EU to vote to remain. You can't ascertain the intention of people with a magic want. If they didn't vote, their desires truly are unknown.

Perhaps. What I do know is that you should not be able to do something this damaging based on 37% of the electorate.

All that needed to happen after the vote was for David Cameron to come out and say:

"Well, the votes are in and 37% of the electorate voted to leave. That shows us that there is a strong desire among some people to leave, but ultimately it is not a majority. The government will take this on-board and do what we can to address the issues that people raised during this campaign. Now we can continue with growing our economy. Thank you."

Then this whole mess would have been put behind us, the pound wouldn't have tanked, banks wouldn't be making plans to leave, we wouldn't have Theresa May playing Dictator and we would have a good, certain future to look forward to.

I firmly believe that those who voted for Brexit are going to be those who will be most affected by it. The "rich elite" they seem to be railing against will certainly move to protect their interests, and it will definitely be at the expense of those who cause the chaos.

 

[niun]

No. But I'm not making a statement without evidence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

 

[VulchR]

I was thinking V for Vendetta (the movie).

Or, given the incompetence of the Conservative government, Brazil. Now I just need to save for my information retrieval charges.... (Speaking of which - anybody care to bet about how long it will be before consumers are charged for storing their internet history?)

 

[sp3k0psv3t]

That's just not true. It might be the case for some city centres, but not elsewhere.
Also, those CCTV networks are not joined up - the majority of them are private, and only small scale.

Well Obviously I did not mean in the "literal" sense that everybody was covered via camera at all times through the entire country lol. In some areas there are just no cameras yes, and no electricity too lol. But for al intents and purposes, and for this conversation, the argument I presented was valid. And if the cameras are U.K. based security cameras planted in place by the authorities, what would make you think they were not "joined up?" I don't mean a store camera provided by the proprietor of the retail establishment, but all government cameras do communicate and the data is available for the authorities as needed. And how is the camera situation in the U.K. "small scale" when by all accounts it is the most publically monitored country in the world when considering land mass, population, volume of cameras, etc.

Not sure I agree with your sentiment. If you live in the U.K. I'd love a more informed rely. Thanks.



Best,

USVet

 

[gnasher729]

Precisely. This is exactly what should have happened. It should have required a supermajority and a minimum turnout to pass. However that ignores the fact that this was advisory and not legally-binding, and thus the supermajority and minimum turnout was irrelevant as there is no need to actually act on the result.

So when Duncan-Smith says this vote was legally binding, he is just lying, right? That's what I thought.
[doublepost=1482338466][/doublepost]

I never understand why people are so against this. If you're doing nothing wrong (and have nothing to hide) you have nothing to worry about. Same with CCTV. Is your life really that interesting?

Here's the counter argument: It's nobody's f***ing business.

 

[QuarterSwede]

Being an American, and living stateside, I don't have a direct dealing with this issue at hand per se, but I do find it interesting that so many are OK with the massive CCTV surveillance implementation within the U.K. where virtually EVERY move u make is recorded 24 hours a day but not ok with this. I understand the mass collection of all electronic data from all citizens is a breach of certain civil liberties yes, but I also understand the issue with the large amount of terrorist activities that are conducted within the EU as well as the large influx of both terrorists and terrorist indoctrination groups working within the border that pose a much larger threat to the safety of all.

It for sure is a delicate balance of freedom of rights and personal security in which I don't think there can ever be one without the other. Sadly, the evidence points to more needing to be done to protect the citizens and how can that be done without collecting, analyzing, and acting upon actionable intel that would not have been present without programs like this?

Again, this is just MY opinion and personal feeling of the issues and matter at hand.

And as a military veteran, I personally do not feel that this action is a contradiction for the freedoms I fought to protect as a solider of the ended goal is to protect the nation. The trade off of more privacy for citizens doing nothing wrong in an attempt to identify threats to national and sovereign security is an acceptable trade off for me. Not saying this opinion is right or wrong, just mine

Be safe.



Best,

USVet

The main difference is CCTV is in public areas and this data collection law collects data that is seen as private. Although one could make the arguement that everything online is public but they haven't yet to my knowledge.

 

[gnasher729]

It was a joke of a referendum that is no longer funny.

I'll quote Nigel Farage, the one single time in known history when he wasn't lying: "Nobody is laughing".

 

[niun]

So when Duncan-Smith says this vote was legally binding, he is just lying, right? That's what I thought.

Heh well it was something politicians agreed on 6 years before the vote so it's no surprise they forgot. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

 

[simonmet]

The Snooper's Charter gives explicit permission for authorities to hack into computers (e.g. laptops with cameras) and spy right inside your home. Let's call it CCTV+. The UK has been pioneering public surveillance, and it now has the most draconian surveillance laws of any developed nation. Cheers, HM Government.

I wish the Queen would actually refuse royal assent sometimes and tell them to get stuffed.

 

[Huntn]

Or, given the incompetence of the Conservative government, Brazil. Now I just need to save for my information retrieval charges.... (Speaking of which - anybody care to bet about how long it will be before consumers are charged for storing their internet history?)

I think the all shady people as determined by Chancellor Sutler should have all of their conversations recorded... you know just to be safe. To be fair, I imagine the U.S. is close behind in this regard.

 

[djlythium]

So, "It's okay! We're using it to fight serious crime. Sorry we didn't tell you before, but now we're telling you that we do this. Carry on, then!"

 

[alexgowers]

The issue with the UK is it makes decisions that even americans feel is an invasion of privacy. The UK has long been the most spied upon nation, unfortunately now with the rise of the right wing here and leaving the EU, it's becoming a bit of a joke how little respect is given to the public. The only reason people voted out of the EU was to avoid being told what to do, but we've replaced the devil with a sleeping monster that once has it's own control back will take extreme measures to manipulate the rules to be even more oppressive. I love the UK as a place to live but it's been a long time since i've been proud of anyone in politics, even america at least has bernie as a ray of light we have NO ONE! All our politicians have proved to have been in the pocket of big money and remain outside the law.

 

[bpcookson]

Now that we know Trump is a shill for Putin, I wonder if Russia made Brexit happen too? If Putin undermines both the US and UK, who's left to stop him??

 

[captain cadet]

Can they change laws?

Eh not really but they can fine the absolute slurry out of us.
[doublepost=1482341573][/doublepost]

When the list of institutions that will have access to our data under this horrendous law include such luminaries of national security as

• Food Standards Agency
• Gambling Commission
• Food Standards Scotland
• HMRC

I think it's clear that this is about a lot more than "protecting" us from the bogeyman (full list here)

Lets not forget about the Welsh Ambulance Service - they'll be looking through your web history while they save you to decide wether to save you or not...

 

[Cloudane]

Problem is no matter who we vote for we always get the same crap. Labour were just as bad. Only time it'll change is if people consider it important enough that one of the big parties having a policy of "we'll go back to not being a police state" is enough to actually swing it vs. the prospective PM having a bit of a funny face or whatever.

 

[0098386]

Well it's a good thing we have the EU to look after us brits.

God help us when we don't have to follow their rules. But that's exactly why I got my citizenship to an EU country last week.

 

[Garsun]

Maybe what's needed is a screen saver app that they continually goes to random websites. This would preserve privacy by hiding the real websites inside all the chaff.
(my apologies if this is a repeat, I didn't read all the previous post )

 

[0098386]

May well be inevitable anyway if England try to force Scotland and NI out of the EU. Stupid referendum.

I'm hoping that Ireland and Scotland leave the United Kingdom. Would love to move to an independent Scotland, get to take my studio there. My partners family are Scottish so citizenship would be easy to get.

 

[captain cadet]

I'm hoping that Ireland and Scotland leave the United Kingdom. Would love to move to an independent Scotland, get to take my studio there. My partners family are Scottish so citizenship would be easy to get.

I just hope they will take IN campaigners in easily...

 

[ksnell]

Freedom of movement within the EU is part and parcel of being in the single market. Thats already very clear, economically is pretty much undoubtable we will suffer without single market access, or freedom of movement.

Anti immigration sentiment is largely due to some kind of notion that immigrants are simultaneously stealing everyones jobs and everyones benefits. But actually all research points to immigration have a net economic benefit, and that immigrants are far less likely to claim benefits and far more likely to pay into social systems.

The lack of assimilation is nothing to do with the EU, thats each countries responsibility to handle, and additionally the EU does not prescribe levels of the amount of refugees that should be accepted into countries without discussion and vote from all the Union members either.

All very interesting points. There has been similar discussions here in the US about whether illegal immigrants are a net positive or negative for our country.

It sounds like for you it comes down to whether you are in a single market or not because you think it will change freedom of movement, which is interesting. I know this was the goal of the EU (no boarders more or less, streamlined currency, etc). Basically economies of scale to make things better/cheaper/easier, etc.

As far as the travel goes, as an American I can buy a plane ticket and travel to Europe with my passport no problem without being part of the EU. What benefits does it offer that I am missing here? Why would being in the EU make my life better? As far as I know, there are considerable taxes from it (EU VAT) so hopefully considerable benefits?

 

[nbs2]

I'm hoping that Ireland and Scotland leave the United Kingdom. Would love to move to an independent Scotland, get to take my studio there. My partners family are Scottish so citizenship would be easy to get.

Understand the idea, but why would citizenship be necessary to the plan?

 

[masteroflondon]

Sometimes I f**king hate this stupid country and it's ridiculous government. I didn't vote for Brexit and I didn't vote for Theresa May...what part of this is democracy?

I think the bit where more people voted leave than voted remain. Isn't that the democracy you were looking for?