U.S. Antitrust Legislation Would Require Users to Be Able to Delete All Pre-Installed Apple Apps [Updated]

[jimothyGator]

i think that many ”naysayers” dont even realize why this is good for a customer. When there is a bug in a default preinstalled apple apps (an app that cannot be removed), then you need to wait when os get an update rather than the app is a separate app in appstore and updated via appstore. Would you rather download a mega than a giga and wait months to fix a small error?

I'd rather download a smaller app update, but this isn't the only way, and certainly not the best way, to accomplish that.

 

[JosephAW]

Obviously the anti trust committee assumes that everyone has a high data cellular plan or WiFi at home. There can’t be anyone out there who needs apps preinstalled and doesn’t have lots of data or WiFi at home.

 

[kmann1983]

False. They had systemic anticompetitive behavior:

1. code to create synthetic error messages if you use some third party offerings
2. branding the crash messages, e.g. netscape crashes give the user an option to download/switch to IE
3. restricting vendors from installing third party applications
4. penalizing hardware vendors by not giving them access to Windows 95 until post-consumer launch for not meeting Microsoft's demands

Microsoft falsely claimed that IE was a core part of the OS to try to justify their behavior in terms of monopoly abuse, but it was shown that it was entirely possible to remove IE.

The biggest core difference is that Apple hasn't restricted OEMs, because they have no OEMs. Apple is the only one selling iOS devices.

Conversely, Apple did make the browser engine a core component of the OS, and shipped safari, chat, mail and music support a year before they even had the capability to install third party software.

And the browser (specifically the javascript engine) is indeed a component that is not replicable by third parties without breaking the OS security model. Javascript and WASM need to be either interpreted or compiled locally after being downloaded, making it the vector for dynamic buffer overflow/remote code execution attacks.

Microsoft couldn't make such a security argument because... well, they had zero security before ~2000.

Monopolies are a cherished part of capitalism. It is called doing your job better than anyone else and winning.

It's the abuses of monopoly position that are bad - that means you are changing the rules of the game to make it so nobody else can win.

The thing is - Apple has tried very hard not to change the rules. It's the expectations of what others can do on their platform is what has changed a the platform has grown.

Look at Spotify - they have basically said that Apple is abusing their monopoly position by taking iTunes and.. altering how it bills people. Well, and a bunch of complaints where (similarly to Epic) they whine that Apple gives them the same APIs and rules and cut that they give every other third party developer.

Oh boy.. anyone want to to tell him about how Apple reacted to Amazon's Kindle app?
Because if you want to talk anti-competitive.... that's probably one of the biggest issues I have with Apple and their full control of the AppStore. They HAVE abused it and they abused it because of their pride -- not like it was a legitimate reason.

 

[Chlloret]

Appstore is an App which won't be included...

Why not? The App store is THE monopoly on any Device? So, it would be the first to go. Why stop there? If a free messenger is already a monopoly, why have any OS at all? The User has to choose. A phone app? What for? Who uses his phone to make phone calls? The camera app? Free? No way, there has to be an option to pay for the same thing (sorry, you get two filters for your pay app) before you make a picture?
This bill is so ridiculous, it hurts.
A device has to work, out of the box. Period. Apple devices do that. Anything special or preferred can be added thru the app store. no problem. I choose Apple BECAUSE its painless, I do not WANT to be bothered with stupid setup routines. "hold your device over the circle on your old device, wait 22 Minutes and off you go"
Nothing more and certainly nothing less! I did PAY for that. Congress should worry about important things, there are plenty, then alienating people from there tech.

 

[BJMRamage]

That's less bad than what some in Congress are proposing, but it's still nothing consumers are demanding. In fact, from a consumer point of view, that screen would be annoying. Especially because iOS would need to show me a similar screen for Music, and web browser, and weather, and phone, and FaceTime, and camera, and so on.

It's not customers demanding features like what your mockup shows or what this legislation would require. It's other companies who want their products and services in front of your face, and they're looking to Congress and courts to make their job of marketing to you easier.

People mentioned the anti-trust case against Microsoft. This is same story: Customers weren't complaining that Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer (which, in the mid 90s was arguably a better browser than Netscape Navigator, which Netscape wanted you to pay for) for free. It was Netscape, along with Sun and other companies who, essentially, complained that Microsoft was just too damn popular with customers.

I get it.
I’m a designer and hear so many asks that don’t make sense but I try to understand what they are asking for and at least communicate something not too offensive.

I would dislike that screen too on EVERY. SINGLE. APP. I open but something similar happens on startup of a new iOS a release or other major point release highlighting the new app features.

Im just saying it could be done reasonably but you are correct this is NOT welcome and a desire by most consumers but from the pockets of the competitors.

 

[smorrissey]

Well Apple is banning me from using Apple Music on HD on iTunes for Windows so.....

 

[eoblaed]

I love it when people that don't have the faintest inkling about how tech works write up legislation that can have a profound impact on tech... especially when they don't even understand that it will have a profound impact.

 

[Khedron]

Obviously the anti trust committee assumes that everyone has a high data cellular plan or WiFi at home. There can’t be anyone out there who doesn’t have lots of data or WiFi at home.

Yep who’s looking out for the guy that wants to stream hours of TV shows but just doesn’t have the bandwidth to download the Apple TV app…

 

[jimothyGator]

Yes, completely ignore Apple's existence as a duopoly with ability to write the rules while also playing the game.

Apple doesn't write the rules, though. Rather, if Apple writes rules that are overly restrictive—either for customers or for developers—then those customers and developers will leave the platform. If Apple had free reign over the rules, then we'd pay a million dollars for an iPhone, and developers would give 100% of their revenue to Apple. Obviously, neither customers nor developers would accept this.

 

[vipergts2207]

So when are we going to apply that to broadband ? you move in somewhere and you are told this is the only option for broadband/TV/phone......all because they made some shady deal with the township? I should be able to have all carriers available to me. We have Comcast....fortunately my area was part of the Verizon Fios project.....I made sure to be the first one to sign up, so I could be the first one to call Comcast that tell to shove their cable up their ass.

So, Walmart, is working very hard to compete with Amazon, there is no other player as big as Walmart. So once they get to that point there will be a duopoly of Walmart/Amazon...will they be knocked down??

You're talking to the wrong person if you don't think I have an issue with how broadband providers are allowed to operate in this country. Of course we already have a way to deal with that and it's by making broadband a utility through Title II.

Amazon is being scrutinized just like the rest of the tech companies. And the behemoth that is Walmart has a whopping 9.5% of retain sales. Get back to me when they even break into the double digits..

 

[jimothyGator]

Just give me a button that reads "install apple apps" and I'll be happy.

It'll take one that reads "f*** off, Congress" to make me happy.

 

[ninecows]

Great! Finally! Ican choose which app i prefer to use rather than adding lots of useless apps on my phone.

I would rather just install apps i use than loads of preinstalled apple apps i never use… And everybody wins - if you like to stick with apple apps, then choose them! if you dont, you now i have a choice to be without apple apps too.

Here’s your new iPhone 14. Now spend 3 hours in App Store getting it up to same level as your previous iPhone.

‘cause I tell you: Apple will also not be allowed to highlight their own calculator in the App Store, so you’ll have to find the right one between the adware bloated alternatives.

And iPhone 15: First you need to find the legit App Store

If you like Wild West grab an Android.

 

[JosephAW]

Woah wait… You get to choose which App Store you want? How would you download an App Store without an App Store app or browser?

 

[subi257]

As I’ve always figured, just make Apple ownership it a lottery for US customers. At 40 million, no more devices ship to the US, no more signups allowed, etc. The government can even administrate an exchange for those that don’t want devices to sell their place to someone that does.

Nice plan comrade, I don't even think that "banana republics" are like that. even Russia and China would not do that, they are into companies selling as much as they can....so they can pass money back and forth with the Oligarchs, who are multi billionaires. They are are not like Cuba was,

 

[macduke]

So who decides what other apps are presented to install? I presume it will only be big companies like Facebook, Google, etc that will have messaging apps shown. I can't just write a messaging app and have it show up as an option. There are probably many thousands on the store. All this does is spread around more money amongst the monopolies.

Will I not be allowed to pull my apps automatically from a backup when I get a new phone? How will that even work if iCloud can't be included by default. No Photos app either? No Files app? I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Is this going to apply to the Mac as well? Am I going to have to spend an hour configuring every single app that I want on my iPhone and iPad and Mac and Apple Watch? Is the Apple Watch not going to come with a clock app? Its just going to be a black void? LOL. This is the dumbest crap I've heard in some time. Are there going to be third party Settings apps too? Hah.

 

[tubular]

There's a lot more proposed legislation than there is passed legislation. And almost no legislation passes in its original form.

 

[4jasontv]

Oh boy.. anyone want to to tell him about how Apple reacted to Amazon's Kindle app?
Because if you want to talk anti-competitive.... that's probably one of the biggest issues I have with Apple and their full control of the AppStore. They HAVE abused it and they abused it because of their pride -- not like it was a legitimate reason.

Which one is the eye roll emoji? Ah, here we go: 🙄

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You can say whatever silly thing you want, but the rest of us will discuss topics as it pertains to how they actually exist in reality.

Of course you want to call it silly, because you disagree with it. It doesn’t change the fact that a “market” for monopoly/duopoly/whatever can be whatever a person defines it as.

What’s actually silly is to call something a duopoly that’s not. What is the interdependence between Google and Apple?
1. Existence of only two sellers (Neither Google nor Apple sells an OS, and there are more than two hardware sellers, quite a number more)
2. Interdependence: if any firm makes the change in the price or promotional scheme, other firms also have to comply with it, to remain in the competition.[further explanation needed]
3. Presence of monopoly elements: so long as products are differentiated, the firms enjoy some monopoly power, as each product will have some loyal customers
4. There are two popular models of duopoly, i.e., Cournot's Model and Bertrand's Model.

 

[Chlloret]

Apple should pause the App Store indefinitely in countries this stupid. Announce all phones will no longer have an App platform beyond web apps and no iphone going forward will provide outside APIs. Problem solved. All US phones get a blank home screen with a message saying call to find out where your Apps are and the direct numbers to every member of Congress who signs this garbage.

Except you could not call without a phone app or dialer. hmmm. Looking for a land line.....

 

[Wanted797]

Well if this isn’t the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

Will it apply the the millions of windows computers as well?

You get 0 programs and your computer. Is basically useless out of the box, given you have no web browser we’re going back to web browser CDs!

 

[vipergts2207]

Apple doesn't write the rules, though. Rather, if Apple writes rules that are overly restrictive—either for customers or for developers—then those customers and developers will leave the platform. If Apple had free reign over the rules, then we'd pay a million dollars for an iPhone, and developers would give 100% of their revenue to Apple. Obviously, neither customers nor developers would accept this.

Did you really just contradict yourself within two back to back sentences? If Apple charged $1 million for an iPhone they'd sell about 23 of them. That's why they don't do that. If Apple took 100% of developer revenue they wouldn't have an app store. That's why they don't do that. Just because Apple doesn't do things that are absurd on their face doesn't somehow mean that they aren't acting in an anti-competitive manner in certain instances.

 

[macguy2021]

Oh yes, lets ship phones that are blank at start and you have to go through a setup wizard and pick the apps you want from a list like Ninite or something, adding to bloat and lack of first party support which is almost always better than a third party app. No. How about we have the built in apps and if we want something else we go to the App Store where apps are curated and reviewed and gives us security and Apple can vet every app for privacy concerns.

This is as dumb as not letting Microsoft bundle a browser. And I hate Microsoft. But there is no monopoly. You can download another freaking browser. If people don't feel the need to download another one, that's not Microsoft's fault. Sure it benefits them but it's not a restriction. And I don't see that as a problem, frankly. This is just asinine and not really actively trying to end the competition. It's like not letting a company dip into too many products because OMG they might hurt competition. If Facebook wants to own Instagram, they can own Instagram. Go create your own app. If it fails by comparison, its not because Instagram actively tried to stop you. You just didn't make an appealing app.

I'm with Apple 120 percent on keeping iOS and iPadOS a closed ecosystem. In fact I wish they tightened up the macOS Apps to be only App Store apps or at least apps that the dev pays for a notarization fee and it gets reviewed. No "open anyway" bypass BS. It improves security and ensures Apple gets their deserved pay. I'm not ashamed to state I feel Apple is deserving of the 30 percent cut they make. Not at all. Without these platforms, devs wouldn't have anything to dev for unless they went to another platform maker and they are free to do so. And maybe those platform makers wouldn't care. But Apple isn't evil for wanting a chunk of the pie and insisting on it. And I don't buy the excuse that devs are the ones mainly responsible for liking a device. That's insane. I mostly always use first party apps on my iPhone, iPad, and Mac. I only use Apple devices anyway and for things like the typical mail, browser, office, etc apps first party is where it's at for me. That said, you do have a plethora of those apps in the iOS and macOS App Stores.

A lot of these tech breakup and antitrust suits are insanely stupid IMO. We don't have to agree, but that's how I feel. I'm with Apple all the way and I think Epic showed what *epic* d-bags they are and how ungrateful they are. End of.

Apple is an easy target unfortunately. But on issues like this and so called "right to repair", I'm with Apple all the way.

 

[subi257]

Woah wait… You get to choose which App Store you want? How would you download an App Store without an App Store app or browser?

I don't think you will get to choose an app store

 

[macfacts]

First time I've heard the argument that installing apps from Apple's iOS app store could be difficult

 

[bollman]

This is a different situation. At that time IE was tightly integrated into the OS and it was impossible to separate it from the OS. Running another browser was not seamless.

And that differs from Safari on iOS in what way?