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How melodramatic...
What next? images from 1984 and the perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance and public manipulation...
Hmm, yes, that does sound like what's next.

In fact, much of that already is.... you may want to live in blissful ignorance that it doesn't, or maybe you do live in a remote enough location that it's spread hasn't reached you yet (after all, it's only developing now, not yet complete nor ubiquitous), but it is real.
{edited for clarity}
 
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Stop with the FUD....my lord.

What you think the Chinese and Iranians won't want the same access the Americans get?

They are sovereign states too so have equal rights. Expecting any different is living in fairy land.
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How melodramatic...
What next? images from 1984 and the perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance and public manipulation...

America has perpetual war and omnipresent surveillance now...
[doublepost=1457737896][/doublepost]
Like I wrote, Apple will either have to have a special FBI-hack-phone engineering department, or will create a generic one-size fits all firmware that leaks out.

Exactly.
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plus, today is terrorism. What if tomorrow a judge imposes the same thing on a case about a minor crime? Once it starts it won't stop.

Even if it just sticks with terrorism it is any countries definition of terrorism.
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I have nothing to hide and don't need anyone else's data.
somewhat a dramatic reply, the ask is for the government to have access to data on a terrorist phone..

In the eyes of the worlds second largest economy and largest by PPP supporters of the Dali lama are terrorist supporters. Why shouldn't their phones be hacked?
 
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The thing that is still getting to me about this, is that the FBI really don't need Apple to do anything. They have physical possession of the device. They can copy all the data from the phone and brute force the encryption that way. They can back up the effaceable storage and get round it that way. This is really just about making it convenient for the FBI for now and crucially in the future.
 
The thing that is still getting to me about this, is that the FBI really don't need Apple to do anything. They have physical possession of the device. They can copy all the data from the phone and brute force the encryption that way. They can back up the effaceable storage and get round it that way. This is really just about making it convenient for the FBI for now and crucially in the future.

And that is sufficiently hard that I see no issue with it.
 
Because Antartica is useless. The space has many functions, both military and commercial. That's why everyone with $$$ is trying to go there.

Useless? In what context?

Given that there are vast amounts of natural resources in Antartica that makes for a pretty good motivation for claimants to break treaty obligations - but they haven't.
 
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This is the problem of the internet. Anyone can write anything and make any youtube video, or take a picture of a president write up some random numbers, then next year replace the picture with a new president and not modify the words and people eat it up as the truth. They don't believe their government but they believe random youtube videos without a single shred of doubt.
I understand your plight, your reality is based on the axiom that governments, politicians, media and other structures of influence and control in society can be trusted. You are convinced they have your well being as their guiding principles and whatever they say or do should be accepted based on that foundation of trust.

It is natural to become defensive when the very foundation for your day-to-day existence is challenged.

cognitive-dissonance.jpg


However, taking on an approach of relating to politicians, governments, banksters, media et al as the clergy of a religion based on worship of and faith in the materialistic principles of consumption for sense gratification only leads to slavery and misery.

Challenge that system based on its factual merits.

Objectively, all information and facts point in the direction that governments are turning their countries into fascistic police states that treat their citizens like animals, or less.

Objectively a very very small percentage of the ruling elite control resources that if they were distributed equally, every single person on this planet would have a job, a place to live, education, clean food, clean water, healthy living and more important than anything else, the opportunity to express their freedom and liberty according to their own desires.

Without no doubt whatsoever you are ruled by a system of domination and control that every day exploit your very life force but you are prepared to defend it to your last breath.

The terms "conspiracy" and "tin-foil-hat" are created by the system itself for its defence, and the mindless servant robots of the system repeat them faithfully every time their artificially made up religion is challenged.

You are not a slave, your are a beautiful, free individual meant to be able to explore life without having a psychopathic criminal gang of creeps destroying all that is good in life.

You are the One.
 
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I understand your plight, your reality is based on the axiom that governments, politicians, media and other structures of influence and control in society can be trusted. You are convinced they have your well being as their guiding principles and whatever they say or do should be accepted based on that foundation of trust.

Wrong! Only an idiot blindly trusts everything they hear and see. I don't trust everything I hear and see from the government just like I wouldn't trust every asinine youtube video or article I see on any subject.

However, taking on an approach of relating to politicians, governments, banksters, media et al as the clergy of a religion based on worship of and faith in the materialistic principles of consumption for sense gratification only leads to slavery and misery.

Correct. Not sure what that has to do with thinking aliens are taking over or any other overly construed sense of fear you have.

Objectively a very very small percentage of the ruling elite control resources that if they were distributed equally, every single person on this planet would have a job, a place to live, education, clean food, clean water, healthy living and more important than anything else, the opportunity to express their freedom and liberty according to their own desires.

I agree with this 100% and more if I could. Very reasonable statement, very realistic and well known compared to all the other verbal diarrhea you have been spewing.

Without no doubt whatsoever you are ruled by a system of domination and control that every day exploit your very life force but you are prepared to defend it to your last breath.

Wrong. I am not defending the system or the system that governs us. I am pointing out that you, being "outside the system" are not special. You aren't even outside the system. You think you figured it all out with your imagination and base everything you know on the internet and youtube. All I'm saying before you make an entire life of paranoia around something, understand that there is a possibility that you are wrong. That the things you fear might not be bad, and the things you should be fearing you are not.

As much as you don't agree, you live in a country where you are free. You will quickly realize that if you ever lose the freedoms that you DO have. Can it be oppressive? Maybe, but I don't think you know or lived in oppression or truly know what that means. Do we have free speech? No that was lost a long time ago. There are a very limited number of things I can say or even write here without potentially being called a "terrorist". These days I feel like you sneeze and you are considered dangerous. Are things getting worse and we are losing more rights? Absolutely.

But I really recommend you start studying history. Once you do, you realize what we are going through is absolutely nothing new. Civilizations have gone through this time and time again. You can even predict what will happen based on history as it seems the ship is headed that way. Does that have anything to do with mass government conspiracies, and aliens, etc... um no.

The terms "conspiracy" and "tin-foil-hat" are created by the system itself for its defence, and the mindless servant robots of the system repeat them faithfully every time their artificially made up religion is challenged.

Wrong. It's a term that was developed by anyone and everyone who has ran into people that have uncontrolled fears of basic things that rationalize them by "they are out to get me". People that freak out someone following them when no one is around. This is the same babble that schizophrenics mumble when they think that the government is planting thoughts in their head and the voices and people they hear and see are real. Are they real? There are some youtube videos that say that they do not have a mental condition but that rather a huge government conspiracy is creating medication to silence their truth that they are seeing. That they are the only ones that see the truth and they are all out to get us. And we just don't see and hear what they do because the government has poisoned our minds.

You are not a slave, your are a beautiful, free individual meant to be able to explore life without having a psychopathic criminal gang of creeps destroying all that is good in life.

As opposed to you, who is filled with fear and cannot live out their life in happiness because the government is out to get you specifically. You need to run and hide, because the government knows where you live and you are just doing a service by warning everyone that the aliens may be planting thoughts in our heads and the government is hiding this from us, because they want to use our bodies as batteries for the overlords.

You are the One.

Some fears are natural and founded. Some people are disabled and debilitated by their fears like my schizophrenic example above. So honestly, I'm not defending the government like you think I am. I'm just trying to show you the irrationality of your arguments and how a lot of it has nothing to do with governments, or aliens, or whatever else you are afraid of and has everything to do with you. You are not special enough that the government or aliens have any interest in. You and your "elite" group of people who thinks outside the drones is a lie, and you only exist because you have nothing else that defines who you are. I still stand by that you are an intelligent person, just with somewhat irrational fears that are based off of random idiotic information.

So honestly...

Is the government corrupt? An absolute resounding yes!
Is everyone bad in the government? No.
Is there an elite group of people that are controlling things like food? Maybe. Monsanto comes to mind. But I believe that is more about money than control. Or maybe both.
Are they all connected? Maybe, but neither you or youtube knows
Are there aliens? Maybe, who knows.
Does the government know about aliens and is hiding it from the public in fear of... fill in x here? Why bother with the government when the aliens can clear our heads themselves. Seems like a waste for them to work with a bunch of power hungry people. If they need batteries, they wouldn't go through the government. Just sayin'
Is NASA fake? I doubt it, there is absolutely no benefit to them being fake.
Do they waste money? Yeah, every organization and department of the government wastes money; but their sole existence and faking things like the moon landing does not accomplish them getting more. In fact it's very counteractive for them to lie about this stuff.

Any answer to any of these questions are you and I don't know and neither does any lunatic on youtube. You cannot base your entire life on the fear of some random sh* you hear on youtube. You have to be smarter than that. Like I said above, put your intelligence, energy and life to a better purpose. You running around screaming that everyone is out to get you is not productive and doesn't change anything. Believing everything the government is saying is just as bad as believing anything you find on youtube. I know you think you filter the information because you clearly figured out the government, but I wouldn't be so sure; all you did was generalize one side and believed the other and then accused me of doing the same. It's not that simple.

All I can say, focus on more immediate real fears if you have them, and do some good in this life. Even if you believe the government is out to get you. Volunteer at a hospice, feed the homeless, work hard and donate to causes you believe in. Take care of a family member or even someone you met. Make a difference in one person's life. Focus on the good things as this big grand scheme you are so afraid of is based on as many lies from the government as lies from youtube and everything else you have ever read or thought. Doing those things matter to humanity, matter to the people you live with and touch. Freaking out over aliens, NASA, government just makes you a sad isolated person who most people probably see as borderline lunatic. I don't think you are crazy and I think you might be right on a lot of stuff, but nothing you are right on matters. And this overblown fear of yours is debilitating you.

Make a difference. "Awareness" is NOT a difference. It's the answer for people who are too lazy to do anything else and half-hardheartedly think they care about something.
 
I understand your plight, your reality is based on the axiom that governments, politicians, media and other structures of influence and control in society can be trusted. You are convinced they have your well being as their guiding principles and whatever they say or do should be accepted based on that foundation of trust.

It is natural to become defensive when the very foundation for your day-to-day existence is challenged.

cognitive-dissonance.jpg


However, taking on an approach of relating to politicians, governments, banksters, media et al as the clergy of a religion based on worship of and faith in the materialistic principles of consumption for sense gratification only leads to slavery and misery.

Challenge that system based on its factual merits.

Objectively, all information and facts point in the direction that governments are turning their countries into fascistic police states that treat their citizens like animals, or less.

Objectively a very very small percentage of the ruling elite control resources that if they were distributed equally, every single person on this planet would have a job, a place to live, education, clean food, clean water, healthy living and more important than anything else, the opportunity to express their freedom and liberty according to their own desires.

Without no doubt whatsoever you are ruled by a system of domination and control that every day exploit your very life force but you are prepared to defend it to your last breath.

The terms "conspiracy" and "tin-foil-hat" are created by the system itself for its defence, and the mindless servant robots of the system repeat them faithfully every time their artificially made up religion is challenged.

You are not a slave, your are a beautiful, free individual meant to be able to explore life without having a psychopathic criminal gang of creeps destroying all that is good in life.

You are the One.


Completely agree. Governments should not be trusted and their motives should always be questioned. The founders of your government understood this and created a system of checks and balances to try to ensure that no one branch of the government accumulated too much power.

The greatest danger that democracy faces is the idea that questioning ones government is somehow the same as betraying your country. The government is not the country, the country is its people and its set of underlying principles; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, are what are crucial. It is the governments job to protect those principles, when they start acting against them, then they should be replaced. The problem we all face today in most countries, is that our selection of politicians is so similar in their beliefs. How do we elect an alternative government when those standing in opposition will do almost exactly the same as the ones they replace.
 
The thing that is still getting to me about this, is that the FBI really don't need Apple to do anything. They have physical possession of the device. They can copy all the data from the phone and brute force the encryption that way. They can back up the effaceable storage and get round it that way. This is really just about making it convenient for the FBI for now and crucially in the future.

There is a hardware part of the key in the device that Apple doesn't know about, getting this key out without destroying the device (how?) and then putting it together with the other key part from the pin (how, before, after, is there a math function or hash to put them together into one key) and then if by miracle you got them and know how they're assembled, doing the attempts to decrypt would take millions of years even on a massively parallel fast computer.

So, no they don't have really another option,
 
I have absolutely no comment on the constitution unless you want to talk about right to "bear arms" clause is possibly one cause for the killing in the first place...
 
The thing that is still getting to me about this, is that the FBI really don't need Apple to do anything. They have physical possession of the device. They can copy all the data from the phone and brute force the encryption that way. They can back up the effaceable storage and get round it that way. This is really just about making it convenient for the FBI for now and crucially in the future.

Please, provide any evidence that this is true. This iPhone is going to erase data after ten incorrect attempts. Usually that would be "game over". So what do you think will happen on the eleventh attempt? Do you think the iPhone will even _try_ the eleventh passcode?
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what about the next warrant?
and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?
sooner or later, stuff will get out.

Apple estimates 30 engineer weeks of work. Now the engineers in question (there are not many) could just quit temporarily and allow Apple to hire them back at consultants, at an appropriate rate considering how many other people can be hired. Say $500 an hour, which is cheap compared to a lawyer. $4,000 a day, $20,000 a week, $600,000, and the FBI pays the bill. And of course _everything_ is destroyed when that phone's passcode is found.

How many warrants will Apple get at a rate of $600,000 a piece?
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What I meant was, they don't have the technology in place to follow the court order, which means they have to create something. That's the idea behind the old law. The discussion is around if the court order / that old law can force someone to create something for the government.

If they cave in and create something, that means the next time they get a request, they can no longer say no, because now something exists. Which means if they refuse, they are obstructing. So following this creation, any and all valid court orders have to go through or apple is held in contempt. And if Apple closes the loop on this, they are also now obstructing justice.

They create it, unlock the phone, destroy it. Which the original court order (which was issued before Apple was even told about the case) actually said.
 
There is a hardware part of the key in the device that Apple doesn't know about, getting this key out without destroying the device (how?) and then putting it together with the other key part from the pin (how, before, after, is there a math function or hash to put them together into one key) and then if by miracle you got them and know how they're assembled, doing the attempts to decrypt would take millions of years even on a massively parallel fast computer.

So, no they don't have really another option,
Yes your right the first method would not work, I thought the hardware key was linked to something knowable but its not. The second method backing up the effaceable storage and then restoring it if the device is wiped should work though. The device isn't actually fully wiped after 10 attempts, only the key in the effaceable storage is destroyed. Edward Snowden suggested that method.
 
I guess where our opinions differ is that this method would be "in the public". I have no reason to believe, based on Apple's strict quality and security controls that this method would ever make it to the public. I can certainly respect your opinion if you believe otherwise....

Let's play real life scenario.
The LEO gets a locked iPhone. Reaches out to Apple to work it's magic and use either the FBIOS or a new version to allow LEO to unlock my phone. They get major data. I'm arrested.
As part of my allowed legal defense, I can challenge the chain of evidence and the manner it was collected and analyzed (think fingerprints and DNA).
I hire my own set of "experts" and request to review both the code, the method, and the process used by Apple to get that data. That is a right granted to me. This isn't Apple reviewing it. It's not the FBI. It is whatever credentialed person/group I hire.
How long till the code is "out in the wild"? I could see groups staging this just to get a chance to analyze the code.
If this is allowed (hopefully not) and sets a precedent (if allowed very likely) you can pretty much guarantee it will get out.
 
The other thing is that physical searching is slow and boring. So if you only have a tiny chance of finding something you don't do it.

Additionally it is obvious and high profile so if you're a political dissident you can
use being searched illegally to further your cause.

Furthermore landlords can't search your house without a time delay.

Tough ****. People expect things to come easy and fast. No one knows work ethic anymore.
 
LOL. It does feels like a cover up for the most part. Forgot who, but one of the congressmen asked Comey if this was FBI looking to fix their mistakes, but he responded, the court did not think so.
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Ahh gotcha. Sorry misunderstood!! Makes sense now that I read it again in that context.

Yeah, the next thing your know, people will start using super cheap, discarded, or busted microwave ovens as an "RF safe" for their phones. Or they'll just use these when they're not using their devices: http://disklabs.com/products/faraday-bags
 
We all know that if this software is written and used its only matter of time before someones greed will sell this on and then its will be open season on everyones phone. Don't do it Apple.
 
Anyone read DoJ's filing yesterday? Let me summarize it for you.

If you are a small business owner: send every trade secret you have to the FBI right now. Hire a few people full time so that your product can change to what the FBI wants it to be at any given moment. DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT, put covers (if physical) or passwords (if software) on anything; absolutely use transparent glass for any product you have because not doing so, means that you purposefully and willfully made it hard for the FBI to investigate a potential future crime after-the-fact and by doing so you are obstructing justice and WILL go to prison. Stamp this Apple shaped template on any business as you wish since that is the request.

Oh and if you are a terrorist, just go ahead and use a different app other than iMessages on your iPhones. Something that uses asymmetrical encryption that has quick expiration. That's it. You really don't have to do anything else different. You don't even have buy a different phone either. That's not necessary unless the iPhone 7 is really cool. Either way, just the one app really. Oh and if you absolutely need voice, I mean really? But OK, if you do need it, go ahead and buy a burner phone like you used to. I know it's not as cool as the iPhone, but it still works.

And Apple, sorry, by losing you lost money, you lost iOS, you will lose a little over 50% trust of all consumers who will feel like an iPhone is actually a snoop phone, you lost the trust of all enterprises, you will most likely not be able to sell in many countries. And in return, you have done NO good and gained nothing. No crimes were prevented, no crimes were solved. The criminals that are smart did not take pictures and leave them on their phone, or left notes to themselves in the note app about what they were going to do. They definitely did not have "my buddy in crime" in the contacts app. They deleted the iMessages of any damning evidence. And they definitely turned off their backups before planning the crime. I get that turning off location service is worthless since all carriers can pinpoint your phone anyway, that leaves absolutely no useful things on the phone. Oh and if you were hoping to convict some of the dumber criminals, sorry, those guys are already in prison because they posted their sh__ on facebook and twitted the crime as it was happening.

Which leads me to the question for this forum... Comey looks stupid, or is he playing stupid? I mean in the congressional hearing, he didn't even take the time to read the brief when asked questions. Even every congressmen took the time to google the difference between "key" and "signing key". This moron did not, and just responded, "that's not my area of expertise"–The guy that is asking the key to the world has no idea what security actually is(<--- a little dramatic effect there). He can't really naively think that this will stop terrorists or that phone will have any useful information on it. Even if he did, wouldn't secretly working with Apple and the NSA should have been the way to go? I mean the guy was labeled a terrorist after all and this is NSA's problem too, not just the FBI's.

So what's the real plan? Is the FBI and the government just stupid (I doubt this) or is there a bigger picture in play here? Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the computer illiterate hillbilly morons that are writing that they will "put Cook in prison unless he unlocks the magic box that has buttons". A foot in the door, I get it. But to what end? Just to be able to go into any private company and boss them around and tell them what to do, and what products to make and how to make them? For all the government conspiracy nuts, sure. FBI doing NSA's dirty work because they lost a lot of their ability to snoop? Maybe...

Does anyone else think that this stunt is actually to slow down the big Apple Behemoth? If Apple loses, they will shrink down and lose billions. I actually estimate about 20%. But that's risky, because if they win, they will grow even bigger. I know it's an insane reach, just a theory and just wondering if anyone else thought about it that way.
 
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