U.S. Government Calls Apple's Opposition to iPhone Unlocking Order a 'Diversion,' Says Fears Are 'Overblown'

[aloshka]

Skully is still holding up better, though!

Oh yeah for sure. She still looks young but a little plastic-ky looking. I wonder if she had botox. Moulder definitely looks old.

So, lets take Aliens and such out of the equation. The Space conspiracy would benefits one things for sure... MONEY. If we think all this stuff is happening in space we'll have no problem letting the budget increase and spending more money on "Space" exploration. It is cheaper to fake space station stuff than to actually be up there. That is not saying we don't have a space station, but to fake the every day events would be a lot cheaper then doing it for real. What is the US most focused on... money power money power money power.... if you use this paradigm the NASA's Faking stuff makes sense.

It's so funny because I don't think you realize that NASA doesn't have any money. In fact their budget has been shrinking in the last 4 years from 22 billion to 17 billion last year. For what you are describing this conspiracy as , this is the biggest joke in history. It seems like a lot of money, but it really isn't.

LMAO, Enron had a better conspiracy than NASA. Those guys raked in 130million in insider trading over 3-4 people. NASA is an entire organization that wastes money on research

If there is a bigger conspiracy, it's apple. 700 billion net worth. Now THAT's a conspiracy.

 

[yaxomoxay]

NASA doesn't have any money. In fact their budget has been shrinking in the last 4 years from 22 million to 17million last year.

Billion not Million. Still pennies.

 

[aloshka]

Billion not Million. Still pennies.

Thanks, had to modify my post with some more research and took out things that wouldn't make sense.

Either way, my point still stands. A world-wide conspiracy, and that's all the money they get? They have to lie to every individual in the entire world except for the select few theorists that "figured it out" and that's it?

 

[yaxomoxay]

If there is a bigger conspiracy, it's apple. 700 billion net worth. Now THAT's a conspiracy.

Well. Apple's new campus is called........ ? exactly. lol

 

[aloshka]

Well. Apple's new campus is called........ ? exactly. lol

Nice you got it! I did that on purpose–and by purpose, I mean I'm taking credit for it even though had no idea.

NASA is stupid though. The US lottery state-wide makes on average $70 billion in revenue. That's just the US... I don't know if I'd go into the business of fooling the entire world for 17... Just sayin' Seems like lotto is so much easier to run. You don't have to modify pictures, videos or even buy swimming pools. You do need to buy photoshop though for flyers, which is a bummer.

 

[kemal]

Apple's rhetoric is false and "corrosive of the very institutions that are best able to safeguard our liberty and our rights."

....Since when was the ACLU suing Apple to degrade the phone?

 

[theelysium]

This is the problem of the internet. Anyone can write anything and make any youtube video, or take a picture of a president write up some random numbers, then next year replace the picture with a new president and not modify the words and people eat it up as the truth. They don't believe their government but they believe random youtube videos without a single shred of doubt. Give me any possible conspiracy and I'll find you youtube links with "facts" based on some video that was modified or blurry about something. 9/11? Check.. There were even email chains of how if you add up all the letters it equals something. Those were viral, the funny part? If you do the math it didn't even add up, or arbitrary numbers were added as "buffering" to make something that didn't make sense somehow add up and the question was raised "what do those extra numbers mean". They meant nothing, they were created to support the original conspiracy.

Are there conspiracies in the world? ABSOLUTELY! Without a doubt. Is there some psycho tinfoil wearing hat person that posted a video about everything and anything that can even be a conspiracy.. another resounding yes! Can you tell which is which? Most likely not anymore, because all of it sounds insane at this point. The one thing that is in common between all these conspiracies, like: aliens, that we are aliens and don't know it, or that the floor you are standing on is actually alive, but Obama is lying to you about it–is that all these conspiracies are based on doubts. Guess what? Doubt is everywhere and everything can be doubted.. that means EVERYTHING is a conspiracy. Can you know 100% sure that I'm not an alien and writing this to protect our race? There is a conspiracy there. I'll go post a video on youtube, link up some posts that I made that were questionable and title it in big letters..."macrumors central meeting place for aliens. They use our words but you can decode their meaning by: ignore every 6th word in my post unless it's a "the", or the word "aliens" if it shows up between posts 1 and 1000 and the 50th word but only if it's "are" and then any word in the next 20 pages that has the word "here"". But it's true! Check it yourself. Those are FACTS. Because you can find those words in that order. You can't possibly say that I knew about that before writing this? Or did I? I wonder what it spells out. But the bigger question is.. .why?

So you are right, you should choose your conspiracies and back them up with news articles you find and twist into what you already decided as a conspiracy. Search through facebook and youtube and find other people that believe what you believe and take what they say as pure facts, even though they, just like you, searched for information, reached and came to conclusion. You look at their videos and think, wow that is some strong evidence, they look at yours and think, wow that is some strong evidence. Each is dependent on each other until you have a full blown everyone is lying to us conspiracy that is not in your own circle that you created from scratch.

The videos I've seen by truthers do not edit in ways to distort the truth. I have scene those and yes I trash move past them. I am an intelligent person I search after watching, verify facts and come to my own conclusion. I do not take anyone word. You can hear the crazy in the voice and in the way the video is edited right way. Some times it is fun to watch the insanity.

I cannot post links and such here because admins will flag me and I think people need to find their own path to the truth.

What I think are real conspiracies from my research are:

NASA images and videos are fake. Why, I don't know... I just know NASA does fake stuff. Is all of it faked, no, but a large amount is.

9/11 Has more facts to being a setup by our Gov then being legit. 90% of those facts are all of the live news coverage pieced together nothing faked & the facts of the building design and the explosions of the floor caught be news cameras.

Crop circles are real and created by balls of light... it's crazy... I know...

Illuminati is real aka shadow government aka the "establishment", but are they good or evil? I don't know that is not clear too much fake stuff mucking up the facts, but they do exist.

UFOs are real, are they aliens or are they US tech? Maybe both? I don't know too much fake stuff mucking up the facts to say for sure.

Ancient alien artifacts are real. The place on earth where human being were created has been found (south Africa) and our government knows this. It is hushed up.

Pyramids are not tombs.

Chem trails are real they are weather manipulation experiments.

Some of our leaders are trying to create a one world order.

And the FBI does not need in that damn iPhone.... LOL

What all the conspiracies really lead up to I don't know, but I do know those ones are real. Just, the truth of them is hard to dicier and I DO NOT think I know the truth of them... just that those are real conspiracies.
[doublepost=1457733328][/doublepost]This Mulder is tapping out though... have a good day debating.

 

[kemal]

I'm %100 with Apple on this,it's scary and disgusting at the same time to see how government and FBI want the ability to breach personal privacy.
unless you are mentally challenged,of lower IQ or a child,you will realise the terrorist/criminal cases are just an excuse.

-->Apple should proceed with designing a new version of iOS that makes their request technically impossible.so they cannot comply even if they choose to.

Keep the increasing time delay for bad passcode guess within the Secure Enclave code*. Require that any change to the Secure Enclave code trigger an erase of main storage AND the Secure Enclave data.

*The SE is known to be its own CPU with an OS, RAM/ROM/Flash.

 

[eac25]

I think people need to find their own path to the truth.

Yes indeed.

And, BTW & IMHO: wow - just wow.

 

[aloshka]

The videos I've seen by truthers do not edit in ways to distort the truth. I have scene those and yes I trash move past them. I am an intelligent person I search after watching, verify facts and come to my own conclusion. I do not take anyone word. You can hear the crazy in the voice and in the way the video is edited right way. Some times it is fun to watch the insanity.

I cannot post links and such here because admins will flag me and I think people need to find their own path to the truth.

What I think are real conspiracies from my research are:

NASA images and videos are fake. Why, I don't know... I just know NASA does fake stuff. Is all of it faked, no, but a large amount is.

9/11 Has more facts to being a setup by our Gov then being legit. 90% of those facts are all of the live news coverage pieced together nothing faked & the facts of the building design and the explosions of the floor caught be news cameras.

Crop circles are real and created by balls of light... it's crazy... I know...

Illuminati is real aka shadow government aka the "establishment", but are they good or evil? I don't know that is not clear too much fake stuff mucking up the facts, but they do exist.

UFOs are real, are they aliens or are they US tech? Maybe both? I don't know too much fake stuff mucking up the facts to say for sure.

Ancient alien artifacts are real. The place on earth where human being were created has been found (south Africa) and our government knows this. It is hushed up.

Pyramids are not tombs.

Chem trails are real they are weather manipulation experiments.

And the FBI does not need in that damn iPhone.... LOL

What all the conspiracies really lead up to I don't know, but I do know those ones are real. Just, the truth of them is hard to dicier and I DO NOT think I know the truth of them... just that those are real conspiracies.

The FBI one yes.. lol

The rest of them, you cannot possibly say are all coverups? Some maybe, some maybe not. You are intelligent, I believe you, you took the time to sort through and find what you believe the truth is. Is it possible that the people that made the videos that you believe were intelligent as well and fooled you instead?

Because you figured out these conspiracies you assume that you are smarter than the government because you saw through them; billions of people didn't, but you did... which brings up an interesting point about you.

It feels like you are holding on to this because it's the only thing that can prove that you are intelligent, that you know something everyone else doesn't. That knowing this puts you outside of society looking in on everyone else that is fooled. You create the illusion that you want people to believe, but you choose a subject that you knew no one would, thereby holding on to the idea that you are still better than everyone else.

You realize that's a psychological condition, right? It's called loneliness and inability to connect with others with just a slice of narcism.

It's not an attack on you, but just a suggestion. Try being part of society, you might like it. We aren't all drones, we aren't all stupid. Can't say for others, we sure as hell don't think you're stupid, just use your intelligence on something more productive. If you feel like you have no edge or not standing out like you want to, lower your standards or find a better way to better yourself instead of just side stepping society and assuming everyone is a moron except you.

Just sayin'

 

[cosmichobo]

First thought... What if Apple loses the legal fight, but Tim still refuses? He'll be thrown in jail? Ok, then what? Apple appoints a new CEO, who either does, or does not agree, and is then possibly also thrown in jail? Or legally does the buck stop once Tim's imprisoned?

Second thought... It's often said that those with the deepest pockets win legal battles... A googlesearch suggests Apple has two to three times more money than the US government...

 

[aloshka]

First thought... What if Apple loses the legal fight, but Tim still refuses? He'll be thrown in jail? Ok, then what? Apple appoints a new CEO, who either does, or does not agree, and is then possibly also thrown in jail? Or legally does the buck stop once Tim's imprisoned?

Second thought... It's often said that those with the deepest pockets win legal battles... A googlesearch suggests Apple has two to three times more money than the US government...

Buck will continue down the next person in line that can make the decision. And keep in mind it will be more of a batch arrest, it's all execs that had the power to execute.

This is a toughy. Some people are under the impression that if it's just this one phone it's fine, then just tighten security later on so the request can't be carried out again. But they don't realize, THEN they are obstructing justice because now there was a way to do it and they closed it.

I think it's essential that they win because the ripple effect is going to be huge. Apple will fall apart quickly and caving in will cost them billions. I even predict they will lose 20-30% stock. In that case, they might as well consider pulling out of America altogether. Other countries will be very interested in america-resistent phones

Ideally, if American's would get off the couch and go protest in front of FBI building and in Washington on the 22nd. Anyone want to buy me an international flight? I'll go protest for you.

 

[kemal]

Can someone explain how exactly will they be able to load such a firmware on the phone if it is locked? I heard something about background updating but I though you always needed to unlock the iPhone to accept an update.

Also Apple could create a firmware which has checks in it that only runs on that particular iPhone using UDID for example. Once they sign the firmware nobody can modify this check for use on another device otherwise people like FBI and other hackers would have already used this method to create their own hacked firmwares based on the current stock ones. In other worlds - if someone can modify this hypothetical firmware they may be compelled to create in order to use on any iPhone, then they already have the technology to hack existing firmwares.

-In DFU mode, a signed RAMdisk based OS can be run. Apple have to sign this code.

-Apple could create such a RAMdisk that would on run on that phone. It would have to be based on something other than the UID since that is not known to anyone. MAC address would be enough. Since Apple have to sign the code, no one else could simply modify it and re-sign it.

 

[yaxomoxay]

-In DFU mode, a signed RAMdisk based OS can be run. Apple have to sign this code.

-Apple could create such a RAMdisk that would on run on that phone. It would have to be based on something other than the UID since that is not known to anyone. MAC address would be enough. Since Apple have to sign the code, no one else could simply modify it and re-sign it.

what about the next warrant?
and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?and the next?
sooner or later, stuff will get out.

 

[aloshka]

what about the next warrant?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?
and the next?

sooner or later, stuff will get out.

Like I wrote, Apple will either have to have a special FBI-hack-phone engineering department, or will create a generic one-size fits all firmware that leaks out.

 

[lordofthereef]

True, but even the director of FBI admitted to congress that there are now dozens of cases pending this new government OS and that is just from FBI. NY, CA, and a lot of other states already stepped forwarding saying we also have phones we need to use this OS on. Any of these hundreds of not thousands of cases will and probably are in court right now.

I don't deny that. I'm just speaking of what can and may be done in terms of this specific case.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Like I wrote, Apple will either have to have a special FBI-hack-phone engineering department, or will create a generic one-size fits all firmware that leaks out.

plus, today is terrorism. What if tomorrow a judge imposes the same thing on a case about a minor crime? Once it starts it won't stop.

 

[gnasher729]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that iOS 10 includes some new security features, perhaps unadvertised and unsettable, that will preclude any further such backdoor activity.

Well, there are two different things here really. One, whether Apple is capable of putting a firmware update onto a locked phone. Two, whether such a firmware update can remove the "delete after ten wrong attempts" and "up to one hour delay after a wrong attempt" features.

From the iPhone 5s onward, the "delete after ten wrong attempts" is built into the phone hardware and cannot be turned off on a locked phone, even with modified firmware. So I don't know whether the firmware can be replaced on a locked iPhone 5s, but it won't help against the deleting after ten wrong attempts.

 

[aloshka]

I don't deny that. I'm just speaking of what can and may be done in terms of this specific case.

That's the complicated part. This case isn't just this case. This is a foot in the door case. If Apple writes the software, there is absolutely no legal reason that that software can't be used to solve other cases. But if you pretend there are no other phones, no other cases and that the software used to create this is ignored, then yeah, it's fine.

 

[lordofthereef]

Sure. Then it sets the precedent and the FBI goes after another phone in a criminal case against a living person. Then Apple is forced again to repeat this process. Then the defense attorney in that later case requires chain of custody information as part of the defense. Then the "key" is in the courts and part of public records.



LotR, I believe I understand where you're coming from and the logic you're using, but I'm not sure all of us here agree with it, at least not 100%. The argument goes something like this:
(1) In order for Apple to load this version of software on this one phone requires some process of side loading it - through DFU or recovery mode or through whatever process would be required (I'm no expert on these mechanisms).
(2) This technique, once exposed and in "the public" {see above}, could also be used by whatever bad actors have the capability to recreate it - this might include hackers, terrorists, foreign governments, whomever...
(3) Even if physical custody of the phone is a requirement to implement the actual breaking-in part, there are several occasions that do not apply to all people but certainly do apply to some people where one must give up physical custody of one's phone. If it is during one of these occasions that the bad actor has access, then the hack might be implemented. Such occasions include such innocuous things as attending certain types of meetings, or taking a tech certification test as well as non-innocuous occasions like if someone is taken into custody, kidnapped, etc. or if the phone is simply stolen or lost. MOST of these occasions are not ones where the "victim" would be legally compelled to surrender their phone's info.

So while your fundamental point about this *not* being about a universally loaded back door that allows anyone with a passing interest to hack any phone anywhere in the world at any time is true, the scope *can* be much broader than just this phone, or even just the phones at question under legally issued warrants.

While I appreciate your trying to bring clarity to the discussion and keep it based on facts (as much as the future can yet be factual), which I too am endeavoring to do, and while I concede that many folks' impression of this risk is hyperbolic and not grounded well in real possibilities, I feel it important to point out in the same spirit that it is likewise hyperbolic to dismiss this as a "one time only" thing that could never fall into nefarious hands and put innocents at risk.

I guess where our opinions differ is that this method would be "in the public". I have no reason to believe, based on Apple's strict quality and security controls that this method would ever make it to the public. I can certainly respect your opinion if you believe otherwise.
[doublepost=1457734910][/doublepost]

That's the complicated part. This case isn't just this case. This is a foot in the door case. If Apple writes the software, there is absolutely no legal reason that that software can't be used to solve other cases. But if you pretend there are no other phones, no other cases and that the software used to create this is ignored, then yeah, it's fine.

I realize everyone wants to talk precedent. I'm trying to talk technicalities of how this specific phone's security may be stripped. I understand the issue with precedent and I don't feel that anyone has really be wrong about that. In short, I have nothing going to add about precedent that hasn't been already said on day one when the world found out about this whole issue.
[doublepost=1457735043][/doublepost]

Once that software is signed by Apple, you can load it onto _any_ Apple device. The devices only check if the new software is signed by Apple. Since the software intended for one phone is signed by Apple, it will work on all devices. And there is no protection against the FBI extracting it from that phone (like your locksmith didn't put any protection into your locks that prevent a burglar from _locking_ your doors; your locks are designed to prevent unlocking, not to prevent locking. iOS security is designed to keep bad updates away from the phone, not to keep good (signed) updates _on_ the phone).

I gave an example responding directly to the court order on how Apple may get around actually handing over a device with modified software on it. For the sake of brevity and as to not repeat myself I'm not going to type it up here again.

In short, Apple could simply do what they do, use software to enter pass odes until the phone is unlocked, and remove all trace of the software they loaded I the first place. In this specific case this gets out if Apple leaks it. That's really it. Is there a risk of that? I suppose. Considering Apple apparently has this ability in the first place there seems to be the risk of an apple engineer with the proper security clearances doing this anyway, with or without the will of the government.
[doublepost=1457735349][/doublepost]Really the only thing I am left completely scratching my head about is whether or not apple can truly be compelled to essentially create something that doesn't exist in order to help the fbi with this (and probably future) case(s).

 

[gnasher729]

This is a toughy. Some people are under the impression that if it's just this one phone it's fine, then just tighten security later on so the request can't be carried out again. But they don't realize, THEN they are obstructing justice because now there was a way to do it and they closed it.

Slow there. The FBI is trying to use a 230 year old law that they claim can force Apple to help solve a crime that has been committed. As far as I know there is no 680 year old law that could force Apple to help solve a crime that hasn't been committed yet.

 

[eac25]

I guess where our opinions differ is that this method would be "in the public". I have no reason to believe, based on Apple's strict quality and security controls that this method would ever make it to the public. I can certainly respect your opinion if you believe otherwise.

Right back atcha.

I agree that Apple wouldn't let it slip. I don't think that's where the weak link is though. If you haven't already read Zdziarski's blog post about the forensic trail and how this would get out, you might want to take the few minutes to. http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645

{Added after original quotation:}

Really the only thing I am left completely scratching my head about is whether or not apple can truly be compelled to essentially create something that doesn't exist in order to help the fbi with this (and probably future) case(s).

Yeah - that is the question, and currently a head scratcher. I guess we'll find out what this particular court thinks on the 22nd. We already found out what a NY court thinks about it (though, of course, that debate is not yet concluded either). But until then all we can do is speculate...

 

[aloshka]

Slow there. The FBI is trying to use a 230 year old law that they claim can force Apple to help solve a crime that has been committed. As far as I know there is no 680 year old law that could force Apple to help solve a crime that hasn't been committed yet.

What I meant was, they don't have the technology in place to follow the court order, which means they have to create something. That's the idea behind the old law. The discussion is around if the court order / that old law can force someone to create something for the government.

If they cave in and create something, that means the next time they get a request, they can no longer say no, because now something exists. Which means if they refuse, they are obstructing. So following this creation, any and all valid court orders have to go through or apple is held in contempt. And if Apple closes the loop on this, they are also now obstructing justice.

 

[eac25]

Slow there. The FBI is trying to use a 230 year old law that they claim can force Apple to help solve a crime that has been committed. As far as I know there is no 680 year old law that could force Apple to help solve a crime that hasn't been committed yet.

Well, not exactly.

The AWA is not quite that old, it's only about a century old. It's based on a 1791 law, but it itself is not that old.

The FBI is not trying to use this information to solve a crime. They are trying to gain additional evidence forensically - evidence which may shed further light either on the crime itself (such as co-conspirators) or on potential future crimes.

But I do agree about the 680 year old law part....

 

[AFEPPL]

But if we lived in that Shangri-la there wouldn't be terrorists or the need for laws and certainly not a Constitution to protect the citizens from the prospect of an over-reaching government. As long as there has been a U.S. Constitution citizens have been grappling with the state's duty to protect vs a citizen's natural rights. The fight goes on or we all just become slaves of the state w/ no freedom at all.

How melodramatic...
What next? images from 1984 and the perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance and public manipulation...