U.S. Senate Panel Approves Antitrust Bill That Would Allow Sideloading

[Shirasaki]

But if developers decide to not put apps on the App Store, and only make them available through other ways… thinking they can make a little more money… You haven’t just gained choice. You are then forced to either obtain it through that alternate method, or not at all.
This is the exact problem with the Mac App Store. It’s a ghost town comparatively. I don’t like having to Google various software, figure out where to download it, try to determine if it’s even a safe source… and then hand over financial info to that source. And then is the problem of subscriptions. I have to try to remember who I have subscriptions with, when they renew, how to cancel, etc. on the App Store it’s all easy to view in one place.
It’s okay to disagree, but please don’t pretend this is all benefit with no downside.

Mac App Store is a ghost town partially because how restricted Mac App Store is, thus resulting many developers releasing simple apps that would otherwise be banned in Mac App Store, to release outside of Mac App Store.

While it is easy to manage multiple subscriptions in one place, I fail to believe App Store is all handy dandy without any downside. Similar restrictions means themeing and customisation is rather limited on iOS, as well as more granular control that Apple otherwise don’t want to provide for unknown reasons. Also, Apple can release arbitrary limitations if the incoming app could hurt their bottom line somehow, such as long standing policy to not allow devs to direct user outside of app to pay subscription with tailored exemptions only conglomerates are eligible to benefit from.

 

[Ethosik]

Exactly.

Android has had things like sideloading and alternative apps stores since the beginning.

But no one cares.

Almost all Android apps still come from the official Google Play Store.

So maybe iOS users will largely ignore sideloading too if Apple is forced to allow it.

And thanks for mentioning Epic and Fortnite with regards to sideloading. I remember when Epic made a big deal about leaving the Google Play Store... only to come crawling back 18 months later.

Apparently being on the official store really does mean something... even for the most popular game in the world.

You're right... it might not be the best idea for developers to pull out of the App Store. It could actually be worse for them.

The typical trend is "Apple does something, Android follows" is quite common. I don't think people will understand what this would mean to not only iOS but Android too. Once iOS opens, and Epic gets their own store and buys exclusives, and does the SAME on Android, it will become much more common on both platforms.

 

[Michael Scrip]

The typical trend is "Apple does something, Android follows" is quite common. I don't think people will understand what this would mean to not only iOS but Android too. Once iOS opens, and Epic gets their own store and buys exclusives, and does the SAME on Android, it will become much more common on both platforms.

It makes me wonder why Epic didn't build their own store on Android?

They can, right? Google allows 3rd-party apps stores! Freedom! That's what all the Android-fans keep telling me.

Instead... Epic sued Google. Savvy.

?

 

[Wildkraut]

Well we don't need TV, cars and arcade under the main Apple umbrella. Breaking this to smaller companies (compared to Apple as-is) will allow other smaller companies to compete. Because Apple TV as a company will have the same budgets and cash available compared to Netflix and others.

Apple would find a shady way to transfer money back and forth. The idea of breaking apart is good, but it would need more detailed regulations to prohibit internal B2B licensing of stuff for the sole purpose of transferring money.

 

[Ethosik]

You’re the one who brought up other platforms, I was simply giving you a much more relevant example. And yes, epic wants their own store, that doesn’t mean their store will be successful but it would still be nice for Apple to compete for Deb and customer business in the App Store by improving their offering, rather than just getting it by default.

Not really sure what the first part of this post is supposed to mean. I explained it in my post that you quoted why its not common on Android and typically the mentality in this industry is to follow Apple's lead in a lot of ways. I can certainly see this negatively impacting Android too with stuff being removed from the Play store and be exclusives to the Epic Games Store on Android.

 

[Ethosik]

It makes me wonder why Epic didn't build their own store on Android?

They can, right? Google allows 3rd-party apps stores! Freedom! That's what all the Android-fans keep telling me.

Instead... Epic sued Google. Savvy.

?

As I said, its because iOS doesn't allow this. Which leads to customers wanting to use Play Store on Android because its similar to iOS. But once iOS is required to allow this, and things take a turn for the worse on iOS, it will start impacting Android too.

 

[boss.king]

Sure most of them won’t know what sideloading is, simply because the term “sideloading” itself is awkward. Sideloading is just a fancy new debased naming for installing software downloaded normally from the web, wrapped with fictive malware excuses.

Sure, but the point still stands. Just to be clear, I think Apple should allow people to install apps from elsewhere, I just don’t the the general public is informed/cares enough to make that call.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple would find a shady way to transfer money back and forth. The idea of breaking apart is good, but it would need more detailed regulations to prohibit internal B2B licensing of stuff for the sole purpose of transferring money.

Not if, like you said, regulations are in place to prevent this which definitely would be a must.

 

[Michael Scrip]

As I said, its because iOS doesn't allow this. Which leads to customers wanting to use Play Store on Android because its similar to iOS. But once iOS is required to allow this, and things take a turn for the worse on iOS, it will start impacting Android too.

I see... thanks!

 

[Wildkraut]

The typical trend is "Apple does something, Android follows" is quite common. I don't think people will understand what this would mean to not only iOS but Android too. Once iOS opens, and Epic gets their own store and buys exclusives, and does the SAME on Android, it will become much more common on both platforms.

Hmmm like punch hole camera?
Or camera bumps?
Or like Flat UI?
Customizable Notifications?
Etc.


They both copy from each other, as you see.

 

[boss.king]

Not really sure what the first part of this post is supposed to mean. I explained it in my post that you quoted why its not common on Android and typically the mentality in this industry is to follow Apple's lead in a lot of ways. I can certainly see this negatively impacting Android too with stuff being removed from the Play store and be exclusives to the Epic Games Store on Android.

But that hasn’t happened. The thing you’re saying will happen is in direct conflict with what has actually happened. There’s no need com up with hypotheticals when we have real world examples of this exact thing happening and failing.

 

[Ethosik]

I see... thanks!

Otherwise what is the entire point of this antitrust bill? If nothing will ever be outside of the App Store, why is Epic and apparently others having such a major fit to have this bill in the first place?

 

[Ethosik]

But that hasn’t happened. The thing you’re saying will happen is in direct conflict with what has actually happened. There’s no need com up with hypotheticals when we have real world examples of this exact thing happening and failing.

Again, what is the point of this bill, and Epic and other discussions about this? If nothing will ever be outside of the App Store, what is the point? If side loading is so horrible Epic came back to Play Store, why is this bill and lawsuits and discussions even a thing?

And back when Epic did this on Android, they weren't doing what they are doing on PC with purchasing exclusives to remove them from Steam.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Otherwise what is the entire point of this antitrust bill? If nothing will ever be outside of the App Store, why is Epic and apparently others having such a major fit to have this bill in the first place?

That's a good question.

Have any Senators spoken on this matter?

I mean... the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee approved this bill... what are they saying?

 

[boss.king]

Again, what is the point of this bill, and Epic and other discussions about this? If nothing will ever be outside of the App Store, what is the point? If side loading is so horrible Epic came back to Play Store, why is this bill and lawsuits and discussions even a thing?

And back when Epic did this on Android, they weren't doing what they are doing on PC with purchasing exclusives to remove them from Steam.

It’s not that nothing will be outside the App Store, it’s that companies aren’t going to suddenly pull all their apps from the App Store. I see sideloading as being for niche developers with a dedicated audience and a specialized app that doesn’t work within Apple’s constraints. Think LittleSnitch—an undoubtedly great Mac app but not one that can be distributed via the App Store.

It doesn’t matter whether Epic was buying exclusives then or not, they are successful because their games are easy to get. There are very few developers who could pull their app from the store and not see a double digit percentage drop in users.

 

[Ethosik]

It’s not that nothing will be outside the App Store, it’s that companies aren’t going to suddenly pull all their apps from the App Store. I see sideloading as being for niche developers with a dedicated audience and a specialized app that doesn’t work within Apple’s constraints. Think LittleSnitch—an undoubtedly great Mac app but not one that can be distributed via the App Store.

It doesn’t matter whether Epic was buying exclusives then or not, they are successful because their games are easy to get. There are very few developers who could pull their app from the store and not see a double digit percentage drop in users.

And you are insane if you don't release your game on Steam - the biggest PC game distributor out there. Yet, its taking place now because Epic is paying for exclusivity. Which definitely will happen on iOS with Epic's current behavior.

 

[ericwn]

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Good bye to Security and Privacy. It will open up the door access to Melware

Who is this Mel?

 

[boss.king]

And you are insane if you don't release your game on Steam - the biggest PC game distributor out there. Yet, its taking place now because Epic is paying for exclusivity. Which definitely will happen on iOS with Epic's current behavior.

Not all apps are games. No one is going to follow their note-taking app or their parcel tracking app to the Epic store, they’ll just get the next best competitor.

 

[ericwn]

With the risk of feeding the troll, why aren't you just using Android if this bothers you so much?

Well said. Having something to complain about seems to provide some structure for some folks.

 

[Ethosik]

Not all apps are games. No one is going to follow their note-taking app or their parcel tracking app to the Epic store, they’ll just get the next best competitor.

Epic does all it can to compete with Steam. It will do the same on iOS. Doesn't have to be games. Epic continuously offers free games or discounts on new games out of their OWN pocket in order to compete with Steam. On PC space, games are all that matters as we don't have Photoshop on Steam. But this CAN and WILL bleed into non-gaming apps on iOS.

 

[I7guy]

Certainly. And based on the committee vote, my view appears to be more popular in the Senate.

Most developers on the iOS App Store would be insane to leave it unless there is a specific and compelling use case that dictates their departure. On the contrary, macOS has never required developers to use the App Store and has often given developers little reason to migrate to it, what with restrictions that non-App Store apps aren’t subjected to and handing over 15%/30% of your revenue to Apple.

Almost like the Mac App Store is competing and faltering because its terms aren’t actually all that competitive.


It's up to Congress to determine what conduct is and isn’t illegal with respect to interstate commerce, a power given to them by the Constitution. This is their determining that some conduct that is currently legal should not be because existing antitrust law does not adequately cover the current competitive landscape with respect to Big Tech.

We all know where we stand and we will see what the future holds. I thought it was widely predicted (or widely hoped) by some that epic would crush apple…so one never knows what is going to happen and what may happen if a Supreme Court case could be put in the docket.

 

[boss.king]

Epic does all it can to compete with Steam. It will do the same on iOS. Doesn't have to be games. Epic continuously offers free games or discounts on new games out of their OWN pocket in order to compete with Steam. On PC space, games are all that matters as we don't have Photoshop on Steam. But this CAN and WILL bleed into non-gaming apps on iOS.

Well, then Apple will have to dig around in their pockets to match the offers or pull some rabbits out of their hats to make the App Store the more compelling place to sell your apps. It’s not like they don’t have the war chest to fight Epic. This is literally what competition is, and competition is great for us as customers.

 

[Ethosik]

We all know where we stand and we will see what the future holds. I thought it was widely predicted (or widely hoped) by some that epic would crush apple…so one never knows what is going to happen and what may happen if a Supreme Court case could be put in the docket.

Yes that is what doesn't make sense. People keep flip-flopping saying this stuff isn't happening on Android, but want this to pass.....why exactly? If this essentially makes iOS === Android, won't the same thing happen here? Nearly nobody will side-load so they won't even bother with offering apps elsewhere. So why are people so desperate for this to pass only to have a repeat of Android? What is the point of all of this?

Like you said, people hoped Epic would crush Apple which would mean apps get removed from the App Store.

 

[Ethosik]

Well, then Apple will have to dig around in their pockets to match the offers or pull some rabbits out of their hats to make the App Store the more compelling place to sell your apps. It’s not like they don’t have the war chest to fight Epic. This is literally what competition is, and competition is great for us as customers.

And Steam isn't compelling to sell games on Windows? How can Steam compete with Epic purchasing exclusivity deals, offering free games and offering discounts out of their own pocket?

Sorry, this is all the comparison I have because like you and others stated, Android doesn't have this kind of problem so I can't really compare Apps and Apps in the mobile space so I know its a LITTLE comparing Apples to Oranges but the same fundamentals apply here because Epic WILL do the same on iOS for iOS apps.

 

[boss.king]

And Steam isn't compelling to sell games on Windows? How can Steam compete with Epic purchasing exclusivity deals, offering free games and offering discounts out of their own pocket?

Sorry, this is all the comparison I have because like you and others stated, Android doesn't have this kind of problem so I can't really compare Apps and Apps in the mobile space so I know its a LITTLE comparing Apples to Oranges but the same fundamentals apply here because Epic WILL do the same on iOS for iOS apps.

I have no idea what Steam or the Epic store are like these days, it’s been years since I owned a gaming PC. But I know for a fact that Apple can do more to improve the App Store just by looking at its many shortcomings that exist today.

Ultimately, I’m sure some devs will pull out of the App Store, and some of those may return, but I just don’t think it’s going to be at a scale that most people would notice or care about. Devs already deprecate apps all the time because competition is tough, so they’d have to have really done the math before pulling out of a store that lists their app in the pocket of billions of people by default.

Basically, I think it’s going to be far less of a big deal than you seem to, and will give devs whose apps can actually offer new functionality a chance to reach a whole new audience. Tiny downside—potential for big upsides. But I do acknowledge that we’re both just guessing and know one really knows how this will play out.