Unlike Costco, Walmart Has 'No Plans' to Accept Apple Pay

[3460169]

Walmart's stance is unsurprising. They were holdouts from the get-go in light of the MCX (Merchant Customer Exchange) and so-called "CurrentC" that never came to be known as such -- instead that was scooped up by JPMC and rolled into "Chase Pay" (which I believe Walmart does accept).

Other MCX consortium companies did start accepting Apple Pay -- notably Best Buy and, as recently as this week (in my area anyway), 7-11.

 

[mrow]

Amazon even hurts the USPS because somehow they're making a loss despite doing all of Amazon's shipping. I think they're doing it at breakeven rate then losing from fixed costs, but nobody knows because the USPS keeps their balance sheets private. It really stinks of a secret agreement.

The USPS doesn’t lose money on Amazon deliveries.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/11/news/companies/postal-service-losses/index.html
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Apparently it's a problem. Maybe there are costs besides that, both in time and money. No matter where you are, it's less likely a street vendor or self-employed worker is going to take credit card. In China nobody uses it. They use WeChat Pay, which has zero fees and requires nothing but a regular phone, like our Venmo but more streamlined for businesses.

I pay my barber with Venmo, and it's great. I also liked how France handled their payments last time I was there (2010), with wireless payment terminals like you're saying but the waiter still has to bring it like a regular check, except it's regrettable that it's not cost-free like Venmo.

If the issue is the fees then why don’t retailers give a discount for using cash to encourage it? The only place I’ve ever seen it done is gas stations in New Jersey. That’s the issue here. It’s not so much they object to paying fees as it is they want to keep that extra percentage for themselves. As long as they’re not going to give me a discount for using cash or directly debiting my back account a la Venmo, I’m going to use my credit card and get my credit card rewards, not to mention the other benefits you get from using a credit card like purchase protection, extended warranty, price drop refunds, etc.

Oh and by the way, if you’re concerned about the fees that are charged you can just using a debit card or Apple Pay Cash when you pay with Apple Pay. Apple Pay Cash acts as a debit card when you pay with it at a card terminal and debit card transaction fees are capped at 21 cents by the federal government.
[doublepost=1534969282][/doublepost]

It has to be a very small minority of the stores, and also ones you'd not frequent as much. Grocery stores, yeah. But that's a twice-a-month thing. There aren't many big chain stores, which have standardized robust payment systems. Funny thing is the Taco Bell seems to be card only and no chip reader.

You seem to be assuming that because a place doesn’t explicitly advertise it accepts Apple Pay, that means they don’t accept it. If the card terminal is even relatively modern it has NFC and unless retailer has disabled NFC for some reason Apple Pay will work. Just try it places. You’ll be surprised how many places it works.

 

[tmiw]

I avoid Amazon like the cancer it is. Simple to find a smaller online retailer for that obscure part and help out them. Or go to the local hardware store that can get a lot of it. Or even shop in the local big box store which employs hundreds of locals which then support the other local businesses.

For stuff that's hard to get locally (like camera equipment), I'll do B&H - prices better than Amazon and I have it in a day with 0 membership. Or do Best Buy/Walart ship to store. Walmart will send it to you in 2 days free with no membership. And there's 3 of them on the way home from work. Cables and such come from Monoprice. Computer parts from MicroCenter.

It's quite easy to never shop at Amazon and still get the stuff.

BTW, B&H has had issues with worker treatment in the past: https://petapixel.com/2017/08/16/bh-pay-3-22m-settle-lawsuit-filed-dept-labor/

I don't think very many companies are 100% clean, unfortunately.

 

[lostngone]

You really think the credit networks/banks are sending them millions of individual payments for the fractions of a cent Apple gets on each transaction? Come on now.

First off, yes I would put money on it that they track down to the faction of a cent. When dealing with tens of millions of transactions that adds up quickly. Next they probably do bundle the transactions for processing but that doesn't negate the fact there would be a ledger that Apple can cross reference.

 

[itguy06]

BTW, B&H has had issues with worker treatment in the past: https://petapixel.com/2017/08/16/bh-pay-3-22m-settle-lawsuit-filed-dept-labor/

I don't think very many companies are 100% clean, unfortunately.

True but it couldn't have been that bad if they got on Forbes' top places to work list.

 

[ossifer]

It's always entertaining to see how clickbait articles (there is no actual news here) cause people to climb all over each other to exclaim they hate Walmart more than the next guy, but...

Walmart Pay handles more transactions because it is better, despite having to do one or two extra clicks. It allows you to pay from a gift card then default seamlessly to a credit card for remaining balance. It gives you your receipt electronically. It submits your receipt for price comparisons (where Walmart refunds you the difference if another retailer advertises a cheaper price). That gets funded to your gift card, and the cycle continues (see above)...

The advantage of Apple Pay? A modicum of privacy, and one or two fewer clicks (during which the cashier is working and you have nothing better to do).

Lastly, Apple could make this easier by allowing apps to access the NFC system. Anyone angry at Apple for not allowing that (for the same justification that they express anger at Walmart for not supporting Apple Pay)?

In my opinion Apple should expend ApplePay services/protocol to support electronic receipts, and they would still be able to monopolize NFC payments from their devices...

 

[itguy06]

Lastly, Apple could make this easier by allowing apps to access the NFC system. Anyone angry at Apple for not allowing that (for the same justification that they express anger at Walmart for not supporting Apple Pay)?

They have started since iOS11:
https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/25/apple-will-reportedly-open-up-nfc-in-ios-12/

 

[mrow]

First off, yes I would put money on it that they track down to the faction of a cent. When dealing with tens of millions of transactions that adds up quickly. Next they probably do bundle the transactions for processing but that doesn't negate the fact there would be a ledger that Apple can cross reference.

Sure but Apple can’t use that information to cross reference it to your individual transaction. When you may a payment a one time use, unique token is generated to authorize the payment on your card network. Apple never sees that token so they have no way to know that you made that transaction. Sure, they may know you made a transaction at that time but there’s no way to reference their cut back to you.
[doublepost=1534971095][/doublepost]

Lastly, Apple could make this easier by allowing apps to access the NFC system. Anyone angry at Apple for not allowing that (for the same justification that they express anger at Walmart for not supporting Apple Pay)?

In my opinion Apple should expend ApplePay services/protocol to support electronic receipts, and they would still be able to monopolize NFC payments from their devices...

In theory this should be possible in iOS 12. Walmart could use their app to generate a card that gets stored in the Wallet app, and then use that as the “payment” while still doing all the stuff you mentioned in the background.

https://atadistance.net/2018/06/08/contactless-passes-and-nfc-certificates-for-ios-12-and-watchos-5/

 

[WinterWolf90]

So they stomp out all competition, achieve monopoly control, and then LEAVE? That makes zero sense.

Google it, there are several instances of when they move into a small rural area and the local places all go out of business because of it, then Wal-mart doesn't feel like they are making enough, and they leave. Just one example below.

http://time.com/money/4192512/walmart-stores-closing-small-towns/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/what-happened-when-walmart-left

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...appears/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0f51cf440e6b
[doublepost=1534972501][/doublepost]

I had the same thought browsing this post. Like holy crap people. You just sound like you think you’re saving the world by not shopping at Walmart. Yeah. Totally gonna go out of business because you won’t shop there.
[doublepost=1534894075][/doublepost]
I don’t understand why anyone would choose a small place with a worse selection like Walgreens over Walmart. Where else do you shop?

That's a wonderful thought process to have. "well I'm just one person so what difference can I make?"

Regardless of the intent, each person has a right to not go there. I don't go there because it's trashy beyond hell, people that work there are often not great at customer service, and there are other places to go that have better prices. My local Kroger has better prices on almost all the meat, especially chicken. And local speciality stores like the Mexican and Indian food store carry items that Wal-mart doesn't. If I need groceries, I'd rather go to Kroger.

 

[lostngone]

Sure but Apple can’t use that information to cross reference it to your individual transaction. When you may a payment a one time use, unique token is generated to authorize the payment on your card network. Apple never sees that token so they have no way to know that you made that transaction. Sure, they may know you made a transaction at that time but there’s no way to reference their cut back to you.

Doesn't the iOS device make a token request to the Apple Pay server, that is date time stamped with the unique device ID? They would have the transaction percentage earned from that translation from your bank with a time stamp. Not perfect but not hard to match the two.

This is all irrelevant because Apple Pay is closed source and we really have no idea what is really happening in the background(other than what Apple tells us). However in my opinion of corp-evil america they probably are tracking more than even I think they are.

 

[mrow]

Doesn't the iOS device make a token request to the Apple Pay server, that is date time stamped with the unique device ID? They would have the transaction percentage earned from that translation from your bank with a time stamp. Not perfect but not hard to match the two.

Nope, it’s all done on device. That’s why you can still use Apple Pay with no network connection. I do it all the time when if forget to take my phone with me when I run out to get something. They use EMV for tokenization, the same standard used for chip cards and contactless cards, which is why nothing special is required to make Apple Pay work on card terminals that support NFC.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205645

 

[Triumphguy675]

Tried to use Apple Pay on Monday night at my local Costco in Sacramento and no go. The cashier said only Samsung based phones work. Costco probably needs to perform updates on the machines so Apple Pay works.
[doublepost=1534976950][/doublepost]

Nobody supports chip AND PIN for credit cards in the US.

That is not true at my store if your card is a credit card with a chip and pin it works every time.

 

[LovingTeddy]

Walmart is dying because they are unable to adapt to the current technology. Look no further than how they've conceded the vast majority of online sales to startups like Amazon. They are stuck in the past and many stores are horrible, dirty places to shop in. The latter is the main reason why I avoid them like the plague. Not to mention the special brand of obnoxious people who tend to frequent their establishment (no insult intended). Let's just say that people of Walmart is a real thing around these parts. Walmart is always a last resort.

WalMart is nowhere near dying. Walmart is doing just fine. I have been to several WalMart in my city, they are just fine. Place is not dirt nor it is horrible. I found lots of good deals with Walmart. They are doing lots of online stuff as well, I have been ordering from WalMart online store for sometimes now.

Apple isn’t refusing to assist in better forms of payment. Apple already has a superior method of payment. Walmart just doesn’t want to accept it. That’s on Walmart, not Apple. Opening apps, tapping buttons in the apps and taking pictures or QR codes? Forget it. It’s clunky, cumbersome and adds time to each transaction. Apple Pay is quicker than a chip card transaction. If Walmart wants the customer data (which is why they’re doing this, let’s be honest) that they’d lose out of since regular Apple Pay transactions are anonymized all they need to do is create a loyal program and get people to add it to their Apple Wallet. Apple Pay allows a loyalty card to be applied automatically during a transaction. Walmart gets all their customers data and the customer gets to use Apple Pay. Walgreens already does this.

Apple Pay is as quick as any tap pay system.

I however, argue that QR payment system is easier to adopt than Apple Pay. I use WeChat Pay or Alipay in China few months ago when I visited my family, it is pretty quick. All I need to do is scan the QR code on the wall and payment went through. The thing about QR payment system is it is easier to adopt. Seller just need print the QR code and payment system sets up. There is no need to purchase other equipment and enable NFC. NFC terminals are expensive for sellers to operate. Lots of smaller shop or street vendors aren't able to setup NFC terminal.

Let's just have one example: IF I went to food festival, lots of food trucks only accept cash payment. They do not have NFC terminals. If we have QR based terminal, all we need to do is scan QR code and process with payment. Your Apple Pay is useless in this situation.

QR pay enable lots of small business, street vendor, tourist sits accept digital payment without install NFC terminal. I am more in favor or QR payment system than NFC payment.

 

[lambertjohn]

I shop at Walmart. There's a nice one by my house in Plano, TX. Run in via the garden shop and score some cat food, spray paint, whatever else I need and then pay and leave via the garden shop. Never a hassle. And never a guy in a skirt with pink hair bending over in the dairy section showing some butt crack. Believe it or not, some Walmarts are pretty normal. And clean!

 

[fairuz]

The USPS doesn’t lose money on Amazon deliveries.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/11/news/companies/postal-service-losses/index.html
[doublepost=1534968632][/doublepost]

If the issue is the fees then why don’t retailers give a discount for using cash to encourage it? The only place I’ve ever seen it done is gas stations in New Jersey. That’s the issue here. It’s not so much they object to paying fees as it is they want to keep that extra percentage for themselves. As long as they’re not going to give me a discount for using cash or directly debiting my back account a la Venmo, I’m going to use my credit card and get my credit card rewards, not to mention the other benefits you get from using a credit card like purchase protection, extended warranty, price drop refunds, etc.

Oh and by the way, if you’re concerned about the fees that are charged you can just using a debit card or Apple Pay Cash when you pay with Apple Pay. Apple Pay Cash acts as a debit card when you pay with it at a card terminal and debit card transaction fees are capped at 21 cents by the federal government.
[doublepost=1534969282][/doublepost]

You seem to be assuming that because a place doesn’t explicitly advertise it accepts Apple Pay, that means they don’t accept it. If the card terminal is even relatively modern it has NFC and unless retailer has disabled NFC for some reason Apple Pay will work. Just try it places. You’ll be surprised how many places it works.

About the USPS, CNN and all these "fact checking" sites are jumping on this to defend Amazon since Trump has taken a stance, but he's actually right this time. The volume from Amazon is so huge that it obviously should've covered those other increased costs they're seeing. It sounds like they aren't counting those costs when they consider what are the costs of delivering packages for Amazon, probably since they're fixed. There's no way UPS or FedEx would make such a deal. The contract is kept secret, so this is all we know from them: https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2017/pr17_069.htm Do the math and it seems they charge only $3.38 per package on average, which is a lot less than what you'd typically see mailing a package yourself.

About the payment systems, as I said, it's not just the fees but the other costs. Many stores here don't have modern payment terminals. Some don't take credit card at all. They've decided somehow that it's not worth even providing the option. For debit, some take it for free, others charge something like 50 cents extra.

 

[drumcat]

Stop making the Walton family obscenely rich. They are what's wrong with capitalism.

 

[itguy06]

Walmart is dying because they are unable to adapt to the current technology. Look no further than how they've conceded the vast majority of online sales to startups like Amazon.

You obviously did not see Walmarts' latest quarterly report the other week. Online sales up 33% this quarter and in store sales also up. Not a huge Walmart fan but the prices are good and getting stuff in 2 days without some junk membership is great.
[doublepost=1534980297][/doublepost]

Stop making the Walton family obscenely rich. They are what's wrong with capitalism.

So we make Bozos rich instead?
https://wealthygorilla.com/top-20-richest-people-world/

#1 is Jeff Bozos head of Amazon.
The Waltons are 17, 18, and 19.

 

[mrow]

Apple Pay is as quick as any tap pay system.

I however, argue that QR payment system is easier to adopt than Apple Pay. I use WeChat Pay or Alipay in China few months ago when I visited my family, it is pretty quick. All I need to do is scan the QR code on the wall and payment went through. The thing about QR payment system is it is easier to adopt. Seller just need print the QR code and payment system sets up. There is no need to purchase other equipment and enable NFC. NFC terminals are expensive for sellers to operate. Lots of smaller shop or street vendors aren't able to setup NFC terminal.

Let's just have one example: IF I went to food festival, lots of food trucks only accept cash payment. They do not have NFC terminals. If we have QR based terminal, all we need to do is scan QR code and process with payment. Your Apple Pay is useless in this situation.

QR pay enable lots of small business, street vendor, tourist sits accept digital payment without install NFC terminal. I am more in favor or QR payment system than NFC payment.

QR was easier to adopt in China because the infrastructure for credit cards, and the culture of using them, wasn’t already widespread there. However, practically everywhere in the US takes credit cards and the vast majority of people use credit cards/debit cards to pay for things here so the technology infrastructure was/is already here to support NFC payments.

 

[Hater]

I also live in Scotland and use Pay every day with cards from 2 banks neither charge a monthly fee. As far as I know none of the UK banks charge a monthly fee for using Pay.

I don't live in the UK anymore.

 

[mrow]

About the USPS, CNN and all these "fact checking" sites are jumping on this to defend Amazon since Trump has taken a stance, but he's actually right this time. The volume from Amazon is so huge that it obviously should've covered those other increased costs they're seeing. It sounds like they aren't counting those costs when they consider what are the costs of delivering packages for Amazon, probably since they're fixed. There's no way UPS or FedEx would make such a deal. The contract is kept secret, so this is all we know from them: https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2017/pr17_069.htm Do the math and it seems they charge only $3.38 per package on average, which is a lot less than what you'd typically see mailing a package yourself.

About the payment systems, as I said, it's not just the fees but the other costs. Many stores here don't have modern payment terminals. Some don't take credit card at all. They've decided somehow that it's not worth even providing the option. For debit, some take it for free, others charge something like 50 cents extra.

So let me get this straight. You’re going off speculation by some guy who is feuding with the CEO of Amazon because he doesn’t like the coverage he gets from the newspaper that guy owns versus the company themselves or actual fact checkers? Makes total sense.

 

[fs454]

Kind of like Apple not accepting NFC friendly technology already present in your device?

Couldn't care less.
[doublepost=1534987803][/doublepost]

Good for them, they are a private business and can do whatever they want. They may loose some business over it, but again, it’s their business. ApplePay is a competitor, so makes sense. And if some don’t like it, then don’t shop there.

Exactly. CVS didn't take it and was smug about their choice not to (even having the right NFC point of sale hardware and specifically writing code to stop it from accepting Apple Pay), so I and many others haven't shopped there since. Hitting a walgreens or local convenience store is just as easy, there's always a choice. I don't even use Apple Pay every time I shop, it's the principle of being on the wrong side of history to what consumers want, what level of privacy they deserve, and the incentive to push technology forward for everyone instead of sticking to consumer-hostile garbage like the MCX consortium is doing. If there's any big company I trust with my info, it's Apple. They have the best track record for honesty and privacy.

Now it looks like there was enough incentive for CVS to stop their BS and accept it, as Tim has announced.

 

[LovingTeddy]

QR was easier to adopt in China because the infrastructure for credit cards, and the culture of using them, wasn’t already widespread there. However, practically everywhere in the US takes credit cards and the vast majority of people use credit cards/debit cards to pay for things here so the technology infrastructure was/is already here to support NFC payments.

Technology infrastructures are definitely not there as of right now. NFC terminals are not widely adopted just yet and even if store does have POS terminals, lots of them have tap to pay disabled.

QR is definitely easier for stores and small vendors. One of my friend operating his business in cash only, because cost of operating POS machine and he is doing business in Canada.

QR system definitely make lots of sense for small business owner, street food vendor, street vendor, business cannot afford to have NFC terminals etc. I rather use QR system know that it will work everywhere, instead that i need to hunt for which store supports NFC payments.

 

[fairuz]

So let me get this straight. You’re going off speculation by some guy who is feuding with the CEO of Amazon because he doesn’t like the coverage he gets from the newspaper that guy owns versus the company themselves or actual fact checkers? Makes total sense.

I'm getting it from the USPS earnings statement I linked, showing average $3.38 per package and extending losses despite increased orders. Has nothing to do with Trump; I don't give much weight to what he says anyway.

The "fact check" websites made some arguments like "the USPS has more revenue from Amazon than last year" where they really had nothing to say and were just making distractions. They also brought up that law requiring that the rate be at least break-even, but I already addressed that above.

 

[mrow]

I'm getting it from the USPS earnings statement I linked, showing average $3.38 per package and extending losses despite increased orders. Has nothing to do with Trump; I don't give much weight to what he says anyway.

The "fact check" websites made some arguments like "the USPS has more revenue from Amazon than last year" where they really had nothing to say and were just making distractions. They also brought up that law requiring that the rate be at least break-even, but I already addressed that above.

Where in that earnings statement did they break down revenue from Amazon?
[doublepost=1534989874][/doublepost]

Technology infrastructures are definitely not there as of right now. NFC terminals are not widely adopted just yet and even if store does have POS terminals, lots of them have tap to pay disabled.

QR is definitely easier for stores and small vendors. One of my friend operating his business in cash only, because cost of operating POS machine and he is doing business in Canada.

QR system definitely make lots of sense for small business owner, street food vendor, street vendor, business cannot afford to have NFC terminals etc. I rather use QR system know that it will work everywhere, instead that i need to hunt for which store supports NFC payments.

It costs less than $50 to accept NFC. You can use your own smart phone as the “register”. So the entire cost for a street vendor to accept NFC is $49 and the phone they already own. What business can not afford this?

https://squareup.com/us/en/hardware/contactless-chip-reader

 

[itguy06]

Where in that earnings statement did they break down revenue from Amazon?

They can't - the contract is confidential.

From your CNN link:

Amazon has a confidential agreement with the Postal Service under which it delivers large numbers of packages directly to the post office nearest to where they need to be delivered.

The only thing we know is that it's not "supposed" to lose money. We all know how well the government accounts for money....