VintageApple on Reddit...

[Amethyst1]

I asked a question about the two GPUs that it came with.

But note, no one answered your question and gave various advice you never asked for 😉

You need at least 32 MB VRAM to run a 4K monitor (at 32,768 colours). Uhhh… what was the question?

 

[velocityg4]

Flashing really isn't hard, so definitely go for it when you get the chance! Really wakes up an old G4 too, especially since you've already got the CPU upgrade. For some reason many of the people who splurged on CPU upgrades seemed to never consider GPU upgrades back in the day. I inherited a pre-ordered "500mhz" (of course shipped as 450 instead) Sawtooth with 1.4Ghz upgrade but stock GPUs (The standard rage 128 and an extra Rage LT Pro PCI card). Flashing a Radeon 9800Pro for it was a game changer, it's a "1999" machine that performs like it's from 2005 or so (also has 2GB RAM, USB2, FW800, and a SATA card, so it really does feel like it's from 2005!). Paired with a 23" Cinema HD display, it's a great experience!

Main thing to look out for is if you have an ADC capable G4 be sure to tape or otherwise disable the correct pins on your PC gpu. I honestly found trying to figure that out harder than the flashing itself when I tried to upgrade a Quicksilver G4.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. While I upgraded the RAM and Hard Drive as soon as I bought my DA G4. I put in a Radeon 7000. Then later upgraded it with an 800Mhz Sonnet card and Radeon 8500.

That was a great time. With how much we could upgrade a Mac. The 9500/9600 being the king of upgrades. Although some 68K Macs had some great longevity for upgrades. As they had considerable CPU upgrade ability. I just don't rank them as high. Since NuBUS never got a 3D GPU (at least not a mainstream gaming card), USB card or IDE card. Even though the technologies existed at the time of or soon after the end of NuBUS.

 

[GMShadow]

Flashing really isn't hard, so definitely go for it when you get the chance! Really wakes up an old G4 too, especially since you've already got the CPU upgrade. For some reason many of the people who splurged on CPU upgrades seemed to never consider GPU upgrades back in the day. I inherited a pre-ordered "500mhz" (of course shipped as 450 instead) Sawtooth with 1.4Ghz upgrade but stock GPUs (The standard rage 128 and an extra Rage LT Pro PCI card). Flashing a Radeon 9800Pro for it was a game changer, it's a "1999" machine that performs like it's from 2005 or so (also has 2GB RAM, USB2, FW800, and a SATA card, so it really does feel like it's from 2005!). Paired with a 23" Cinema HD display, it's a great experience!

Main thing to look out for is if you have an ADC capable G4 be sure to tape or otherwise disable the correct pins on your PC gpu. I honestly found trying to figure that out harder than the flashing itself when I tried to upgrade a Quicksilver G4.

I think too many people had the thought of "I don't play games, so I don't need a new GPU", never mind that OS X was pretty GPU heavy even in Tiger, let alone Leopard.

 

[eyoungren]

Main thing to look out for is if you have an ADC capable G4 be sure to tape or otherwise disable the correct pins on your PC gpu. I honestly found trying to figure that out harder than the flashing itself when I tried to upgrade a Quicksilver G4.

I would also just point out the the Quicksilver is the one oddball of the entire G4 line that does not always play nice with flashing/flashed GPUs.

@LightBulbFun can attest to this. Based on his recommendation I purchased a ATI FireGL X3 off eBay from a vendor who was selling them pre-flashed for Mac. At the time they were advertised as compatible with the QS. Note, this is nothing on @LightBulbFun. He was entirely unaware of the problems at the time.

Mine did not work. Thinking perhaps it was a bum card, I bought a second one. It didn't work either. By that point, the vendor had started posting that these cards might not work in the QS. I did a little looking and it seems that for the most part they didn't work at all in the QS.

I have since used one of these cards a couple of times in a G5 that needs work done on it's LCS (2.7ghz DP model). I don't recall ever using the other one (although I think I might have sent it to another member here).

In any case, essentially brand new cards that didn't get used for years after I bought them because they don't work in the QS.

Funnily enough, the NVIDIA GeForce 68000 GT is ONLY stable in the Quicksilver! A forum member here in the UK generously sent me his because he couldn't use it in his Macs.

 

[Stevenyo]

I think too many people had the thought of "I don't play games, so I don't need a new GPU", never mind that OS X was pretty GPU heavy even in Tiger, let alone Leopard.

Exactly, the GPUs in my G4 when I got it couldn't support basic OS features. Plus, the machine belonged to someone who did a lot of video work, I know modern Video editing uses a lot more GPU than was possible 15-25 years ago, but the cards in this machine could barely drive a decent video editing setup, with at least a main display and a video monitor.

Honestly my speculation is that GPU upgrades weren't that mainstream on the Mac. My recollection, and I was pretty young at the time, was that you couldn't open a MacWorld without seeing Sonnet Accelerator ads, but I don't recall being very aware of choices for GPU upgrades. Did ATI, nVidia, or any AIBs regularly advertise mac GPUs?

I checked macsales.com on the wayback machine. In February 2004, there's a lot of options for G4 upgrades from multiple vendors, but seems to be only three GPUs on the entire site, a Radeon 9800 pro, 9000 pro and 7000. The 7000 is a PCI card, the 9000 pro is an ADC card, so on my sawtooth could only support a single DVI monitor. So basically the 9800Pro would be the only GPU advertised for sale as a realistic upgrade for a Sawtooth G4. We have the hindsight of easy flashing and lots of spare cards from later macs, etc. But looking back it seems there wasn't much in the way of PowerMac GPU offerings in 2004, even if you wanted to upgrade (plus, by the time you upgraded to like a 9800Pro and 1.4ghz G4 a you're at least halfway to the price of a base 1.6 G5 anyway, might have made sense to sell the G4 and upgrade!

 

[Stevenyo]

I would also just point out the the Quicksilver is the one oddball of the entire G4 line that does not always play nice with flashing/flashed GPUs.

@LightBulbFun can attest to this. Based on his recommendation I purchased a ATI FireGL X3 off eBay from a vendor who was selling them pre-flashed for Mac. At the time they were advertised as compatible with the QS. Note, this is nothing on @LightBulbFun. He was entirely unaware of the problems at the time.

Mine did not work. Thinking perhaps it was a bum card, I bought a second one. It didn't work either. By that point, the vendor had started posting that these cards might not work in the QS. I did a little looking and it seems that for the most part they didn't work at all in the QS.

I have since used one of these cards a couple of times in a G5 that needs work done on it's LCS (2.7ghz DP model). I don't recall ever using the other one (although I think I might have sent it to another member here).

In any case, essentially brand new cards that didn't get used for years after I bought them because they don't work in the QS.

Funnily enough, the NVIDIA GeForce 68000 GT is ONLY stable in the Quicksilver! A forum member here in the UK generously sent me his because he couldn't use it in his Macs.

Interesting... Did not know this.

I also have a FireGL x3 I flashed myself that lives in my 2.7DP (so far the LCS seems ok, but I really want make a plan and swap it out before it causes trouble) but never seemed to work in my quicksilver. I always assumed I was messing up the ADC pin.

 

[GMShadow]

Exactly, the GPUs in my G4 when I got it couldn't support basic OS features. Plus, the machine belonged to someone who did a lot of video work, I know modern Video editing uses a lot more GPU than was possible 15-25 years ago, but the cards in this machine could barely drive a decent video editing setup, with at least a main display and a video monitor.

Honestly my speculation is that GPU upgrades weren't that mainstream on the Mac. My recollection, and I was pretty young at the time, was that you couldn't open a MacWorld without seeing Sonnet Accelerator ads, but I don't recall being very aware of choices for GPU upgrades. Did ATI, nVidia, or any AIBs regularly advertise mac GPUs?

I checked macsales.com on the wayback machine. In February 2004, there's a lot of options for G4 upgrades from multiple vendors, but seems to be only three GPUs on the entire site, a Radeon 9800 pro, 9000 pro and 7000. The 7000 is a PCI card, the 9000 pro is an ADC card, so on my sawtooth could only support a single DVI monitor. So basically the 9800Pro would be the only GPU advertised for sale as a realistic upgrade for a Sawtooth G4. We have the hindsight of easy flashing and lots of spare cards from later macs, etc. But looking back it seems there wasn't much in the way of PowerMac GPU offerings in 2004, even if you wanted to upgrade (plus, by the time you upgraded to like a 9800Pro and 1.4ghz G4 a you're at least halfway to the price of a base 1.6 G5 anyway, might have made sense to sell the G4 and upgrade!

You'd mostly see GPU stuff on BareFeats or Xlr8yourmac, I believe. May have been less common in MacWorld. But even then most of those reviews still focused on framerates in Halo or Q3A.

 

[eyoungren]

Interesting... Did not know this.

I also have a FireGL x3 I flashed myself that lives in my 2.7DP (so far the LCS seems ok, but I really want make a plan and swap it out before it causes trouble) but never seemed to work in my quicksilver. I always assumed I was messing up the ADC pin.

ATI fireGL X3 NOS on ebay

while I was browsing eBay for graphics cards to flash for one of my G4s I came across this http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-FireGL-X3-256-256MB-GDDR3-AGP-4X-8X-Dual-DVI-Video-Card-w-Stereo-3D-Output-/371194233061?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item566ce680e5 and as some of you guys know the ATI fireGL X3...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Stevenyo]

You'd mostly see GPU stuff on BareFeats or Xlr8yourmac, I believe. May have been less common in MacWorld. But even then most of those reviews still focused on framerates in Halo or Q3A.

Right, I just mean mainstream G4 owners in ~2004 who wanted to upgrade without buying a G5 were bombarded with CPU upgrade options but rarely saw GPU ads or reviews. Sure there were people and places to find GPU info, but you'd have to know you wanted a GPU and hunt that down, it doesn't seem like it was the obvious upgrade a CPU or RAM was.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I would also just point out the the Quicksilver is the one oddball of the entire G4 line that does not always play nice with flashing/flashed GPUs.

Digital Audio's also suffer the same issue, as I understand from the research that me and a few other members have done it over the years

I think its some sort of race condition/issue between the card and the Uninorth 1.5 chipset that just causes them simply not to be recognised

I think the Jury is still out on if the issue lies with the machine or the card exactly, but at least 1 report seems to suggest that when a card works, its the card thats friendly to all U1.5's, rather than that one U1.5 machine being friendly to all FireGL X3's if that makes sense

this issue also can happen with ATI Radeon 9600/9650's and was an actual pain in ATI side causing them to have to remove the DA/QS from the list of macs the ATI Radeon 9600 PC/Mac edition was officially compatible with

despite coming from the exact same batch of eBay cards that have not worked for anyone else, my own personal FireGL X3 has worked perfectly fine in both my QS and DA, because it knows better 🙂

further FireGL X3 shenanigans and findings can be gleaned from these 2 threads also

EEPROM replacement and flashing X850 XT ROM on FireGL X3

So a few days ago a bunch of new soldering equipment i ordered arrived (mostly for another big project that ill be undertaking once that main part for that arrives) and one of the things i wanted to do with this was solder a larger (128K) ROM chip to my FireGL X3 and flash it with an X850XT ROM...

forums.macrumors.com

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/powermac-g4-fun-part-2.2246307/

@LightBulbFun can attest to this. Based on his recommendation I purchased a ATI FireGL X3 off eBay from a vendor who was selling them pre-flashed for Mac. At the time they were advertised as compatible with the QS. Note, this is nothing on @LightBulbFun. He was entirely unaware of the problems at the time.

Mine did not work. Thinking perhaps it was a bum card, I bought a second one. It didn't work either. By that point, the vendor had started posting that these cards might not work in the QS. I did a little looking and it seems that for the most part they didn't work at all in the QS.

the first card was "just" a PC Card from my thread that you linked, that you flashed yourself with assistance from us lot, the 2nd card however was indeed a pre-flashed card but from a listing you had found yourself, that you had bought as a last ditch effort which sadly did not work

Interesting... Did not know this.

I also have a FireGL x3 I flashed myself that lives in my 2.7DP (so far the LCS seems ok, but I really want make a plan and swap it out before it causes trouble) but never seemed to work in my quicksilver. I always assumed I was messing up the ADC pin.

if it's a pins 3 and 11 taping issue then I dont think the QS will even power up full stop at all, if its "just" the standard FireGL X3, QS incompatibility then the machine will boot just fine but it will simply flat out refuse to see the card at all, its as if its never slotted in there in the first place

so worth double checking what your issue is exactly 🙂

 

[Stevenyo]

Digital Audio's also suffer the same issue, as I understand from the research that me and a few other members have done it over the years

I think its some sort of race condition/issue between the card and the Uninorth 1.5 chipset that just causes them simply not to be recognised

I think the Jury is still out on if the issue lies with the machine or the card exactly, but at least 1 report seems to suggest that when a card works, its the card thats friendly to all U1.5's, rather than that one U1.5 machine being friendly to all FireGL X3's if that makes sense

this issue also can happen with ATI Radeon 9600/9650's and was an actual pain in ATI side causing them to have to remove the DA/QS from the list of macs the ATI Radeon 9600 PC/Mac edition was officially compatible with

despite coming from the exact same batch of eBay cards that have not worked for anyone else, my own personal FireGL X3 has worked perfectly fine in both my QS and DA, because it knows better 🙂

further FireGL X3 shenanigans and findings can be gleaned from these 2 threads also

EEPROM replacement and flashing X850 XT ROM on FireGL X3

So a few days ago a bunch of new soldering equipment i ordered arrived (mostly for another big project that ill be undertaking once that main part for that arrives) and one of the things i wanted to do with this was solder a larger (128K) ROM chip to my FireGL X3 and flash it with an X850XT ROM...

forums.macrumors.com

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/powermac-g4-fun-part-2.2246307/

the first card was "just" a PC Card from my thread that you linked, that you flashed yourself with assistance from us lot, the 2nd card however was indeed a pre-flashed card but from a listing you had found yourself, that you had bought as a last ditch effort which sadly did not work


if it's a pins 3 and 11 taping issue then I dont think the QS will even power up full stop at all, if its "just" the standard FireGL X3, QS incompatibility then the machine will boot just fine but it will simply flat out refuse to see the card at all, its as if its never slotted in there in the first place

so worth double checking what your issue is exactly 🙂

It's been years, but my recollection was no display, not failure to power up. I haven't messed with my QS in so long. That's a machine I probably should find a better home for, works perfectly, but I really only have bandwidth for my sawtooth. Too many Macs and other projects to have more than one G4 tower

 

[Pedro Passamani]

Flashing really isn't hard, so definitely go for it when you get the chance! Really wakes up an old G4 too, especially since you've already got the CPU upgrade. For some reason many of the people who splurged on CPU upgrades seemed to never consider GPU upgrades back in the day. I inherited a pre-ordered "500mhz" (of course shipped as 450 instead) Sawtooth with 1.4Ghz upgrade but stock GPUs (The standard rage 128 and an extra Rage LT Pro PCI card). Flashing a Radeon 9800Pro for it was a game changer, it's a "1999" machine that performs like it's from 2005 or so (also has 2GB RAM, USB2, FW800, and a SATA card, so it really does feel like it's from 2005!). Paired with a 23" Cinema HD display, it's a great experience!

Main thing to look out for is if you have an ADC capable G4 be sure to tape or otherwise disable the correct pins on your PC gpu. I honestly found trying to figure that out harder than the flashing itself when I tried to upgrade a Quicksilver G4.

Wow, that's a beast of a system! It's amazing how far you can take these G4s by upgrading them.

About the flashing, yeah, from what I've read, it's a pretty straightforward process. The only thing that worries me is, you guessed it, having to disable those pins. I know it's probably going to turn out OK, but I'm a bit scared of possibly bricking the computer during the process.

I've seen a few AGP 9200s, 9500s and 9700s pop up from time to time on my local eBay equivalent, so I'm keeping an eye on the listings to grab one the next time one of those shows up.

 

[Pedro Passamani]

You need at least 32 MB VRAM to run a 4K monitor (at 32,768 colours).

That gives me some... ideas 😛

Uhhh… what was the question?

If it makes sense to use a PCI card (in my case, a Radeon 9250 128 MB) with Sawtooths (Sawteeth?) and later G4s. A few days ago I got a nice Digital Audio with a Sonnet Encore/ST 1.8 GHz CPU. It came with two GPUs, the stock Rage 128 Pro (AGP) and the aforementioned Radeon 9250 (PCI). I've been wondering if it's better to keep the 9250, or if it makes more sense to drop in a slightly weaker, but AGP compatible card like a GeForce 4 MX or an FX 5200, for example.

 

[Stevenyo]

That gives me some... ideas 😛



If it makes sense to use a PCI card (in my case, a Radeon 9250 128 MB) with Sawtooths (Sawteeth?) and later G4s. A few days ago I got a nice Digital Audio with a Sonnet Encore/ST 1.8 GHz CPU. It came with two GPUs, the stock Rage 128 Pro (AGP) and the aforementioned Radeon 9250 (PCI). I've been wondering if it's better to keep the 9250, or if it makes more sense to drop in a slightly weaker, but AGP compatible card like a GeForce 4 MX or an FX 5200, for example.

The 32MB thing is definitely 90% a joke. Even if you can store enough data for thousands of colors at 4k, I'm not aware of a card released before 2012 had any way to output resolutions above 2560x16009. And no card before Apple's 30" Cinema display in 2004 had Dual link DVI to even support that. The real fun is a 16B card that supports 1920x1200 like the RAGE 128 pro, and you already have that covered! With a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter, you can hook that RAGE Pro up to a full HD TV and then the sky's the limit for silliness.

 

[Stevenyo]

Wow, that's a beast of a system! It's amazing how far you can take these G4s by upgrading them.

About the flashing, yeah, from what I've read, it's a pretty straightforward process. The only thing that worries me is, you guessed it, having to disable those pins. I know it's probably going to turn out OK, but I'm a bit scared of possibly bricking the computer during the process.

I've seen a few AGP 9200s, 9500s and 9700s pop up from time to time on my local eBay equivalent, so I'm keeping an eye on the listings to grab one the next time one of those shows up.

It's a serious G4 for sure, currently resisting the urge to look into things like a Dual 1.8Ghz upgrade and planning to mess with AHCI M.2 storage (apparently it's possible! I have all the parts just need to pick a day to get into it).

Honestly, a huge percentage of Macs before the 2010s can support crazy upgrades, it's definitely one of the things I miss most about the newer hardware (as I type from my M1 Max MBP which has seamlessly taken the place of two macs and an iPad in my workflow)

 

[Amethyst1]

The 32MB thing is definitely 90% a joke. Even if you can store enough data for thousands of colors at 4k, I'm not aware of a card released before 2012 had any way to output resolutions above 2560x16009.

This screenshot (using a 2002 32MB Mobility Radeon 7500) isn’t a joke. 😉 That's 4K (actually WQUXGA) via single-link DVI. The trick, as you can see, is to reduce the refresh rate enough to keep the pixel clock below 165 MHz.

And no card before Apple's 30" Cinema display in 2004 had Dual link DVI to even support that.

Dual-link DVI cards were released in 2003 (NVIDIA Quadro FX 2000/3000).

The real fun is a 16B card that supports 1920x1200 like the RAGE 128 pro, and you already have that covered! With a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter, you can hook that RAGE Pro up to a full HD TV and then the sky's the limit for silliness.

The Rage 128 Pro can't do 1920×1080@60Hz/1920×1200@60Hz via DVI. Its TMDS transmitter can't push the pixel clocks necessary for these modes. The highest resolution it's confirmed to run via DVI is 1600×1024@60Hz (112.27 MHz). But I'll do some testing (I've got one on the way) to find the actual limit.

 

[Stevenyo]

This screenshot (using a 2002 32MB Mobility Radeon 7500) isn’t a joke. 😉 That's 4K (actually WQUXGA) via single-link DVI. The trick, as you can see, is to reduce the refresh rate enough to keep the pixel clock below 165 MHz.


Dual-link DVI cards were released in 2003 (NVIDIA Quadro FX 2000/3000).


The Rage 128 Pro can't do 1920×1080@60Hz/1920×1200@60Hz via DVI. Its TMDS transmitter can't push the pixel clocks necessary for these modes. The highest resolution it's confirmed to run via DVI is 1600×1024@60Hz (112.27 MHz). But I'll do some testing (I've got one on the way) to find the actual limit.

I wouldn’t consider 13hz a successful 4k output, but it’s impressive curiosity for sure! I would pair well with the GoPro hero 3 I had 10 years ago that claimed 4k support but was limited to 12fps! Is that a feature of the t221 or some other trickery to allow full resolution options?

I don’t usually follow the Quadros, spent almost 20 years believing the first implementation of dual link was to drive the 30” Cinema Display, glad to be corrected.

I’ve never had a rage 128 Pro, but I’ve always seen it quoted as capable of 1920x1200, curious to see what you find! My only RAGE 128s are VGA only models from 1999, so have different limitations.

 

[Amethyst1]

I wouldn’t consider 13hz a successful 4k output, but it’s impressive curiosity for sure!

It's a matter of definition. 🙂 If I had two DVI outputs (no such thing on a PowerBook though), I could get 25 Hz OOTB and ≈33 Hz with custom timings.

Is that a feature of the t221 or some other trickery to allow full resolution options?

It's handled by the T221. You can run full resolution using just a single DVI. If you want higher refresh rates, you need to use more (up to four).

I don’t usually follow the Quadros, spent almost 20 years believing the first implementation of dual link was to drive the 30” Cinema Display, glad to be corrected.

You're welcome. The 30" ACD was the first dual-link display targeted at consumers. The T221 wasn't exactly a consumer monitor.

I’ve never had a rage 128 Pro, but I’ve always seen it quoted as capable of 1920x1200, curious to see what you find!

1920×1200 via VGA works just fine. But DVI is a different beast on these early cards.

Sorry if I came across as grouchy or anything, I didn't mean to. 🙂

 

[micahgartman]

/r/VintageApple has a fascination with re-capping SEs. I don't doubt it's necessary but it's portrayed as if they're defusing a bomb. #dramallama

 

[TheShortTimer]

/r/VintageApple has a fascination with re-capping SEs. I don't doubt it's necessary but it's portrayed as if they're defusing a bomb. #dramallama

It's a sentiment that pervades much of the retro computing community with people across innumerable forums insisting you pull every single capacitor from whichever 80s machine is in your possession - or else!

In some situations it's actually unnecessary but the REPLACE ALL CAPS NOW brigade shouts the loudest.

 

[GSWForever8]

Anything genuinely informative on there arouses little interest, unlike posts such as this...

View attachment 2199176

It does look nice though...

 

[floral]

It is kind of cute...

True. What a dashing, yet clunky and obsolete desktop :3

 

[eyoungren]

/r/VintageApple has a fascination with re-capping SEs. I don't doubt it's necessary but it's portrayed as if they're defusing a bomb. #dramallama

And the LB batteries!

If I had a dollar for every 'Defused a bomb!' thread, I'd own the subreddit. 🙁

They act over there like they've done some thing very important or like no one else is qualified to do it.

Yeah, we get it. You're special! SMH!

 

[retta283]

I feel like a part of that is perhaps related to 'karma farming' or posting just for up votes, which seems much more prevalent on Reddit than other forum sites with reactions. Myself I would be perfectly happy to see reactions eliminated altogether, I never liked the idea.

Otherwise I do jobs like what they post all the time, and I never felt compelled to notify anyone else. Sure they are old machines, but after it's been done once online everyone already knows what you've done. It's not the same as a case mod for example, something unique that you did yourself or some mod that you soldered on. Replacing what's there again is standard procedure.

 

[eyoungren]

I feel like a part of that is perhaps related to 'karma farming' or posting just for up votes, which seems much more prevalent on Reddit than other forum sites with reactions. Myself I would be perfectly happy to see reactions eliminated altogether, I never liked the idea.

Otherwise I do jobs like what they post all the time, and I never felt compelled to notify anyone else. Sure they are old machines, but after it's been done once online everyone already knows what you've done. It's not the same as a case mod for example, something unique that you did yourself or some mod that you soldered on. Replacing what's there again is standard procedure.

I gave you a like for that post!

👍

Here, have an internet meme! 😀