Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread

[The Leafs Fan]

I can perfectly imagine so many people I know saying "pffff don't buy Apple laptops, they cost so much and don't even come with NVIDIA graphics, while other 800,- laptops do, lol!!!" It's sad but I understand those reactions if you have a very limited knowledge of this stuff. And in the end Apple cares about making a lot of money, let's be honest.

Just my thoughts

To be honest, people who have limited knowledge about graphics cards and integrated GPUs probably don't even know the difference between the two, let alone being able to identify the companies who create the graphics cards. I've never heard of someone saying "pffff don't buy Apple laptops, they cost so much and don't even come with NVIDIA graphics, while other 800,- laptops do, lol!!. As long as they can browse and type documents, they'll be fine.

 

[Dominican]

Intel pushes back Broadwell

 

[The Leafs Fan]

Intel pushes back Broadwell

Source?

 

[thebrobrah]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/15/intel-delays-broadwell-chips-to-early-2014/

i dont think the delay will effect macbooks much at all...

 

[The Leafs Fan]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/15/intel-delays-broadwell-chips-to-early-2014/

i dont think the delay will effect macbooks much at all...

I'm thinking that thr mobile processors were scheduled to come out in mid-2014, and the processors have been pushed back to Q3-Q4.

 

[Vanilla35]

I'm thinking that thr mobile processors were scheduled to come out in mid-2014, and the processors have been pushed back to Q3-Q4.

We're looking at like a January launch next year then, that means

 

[luffytubby]

Intel Delays Haswell: http://www.techpowerup.com/178068/intel-core-haswell-delayed-till-computex-2013-no-show-at-ces.html

Intel Delays Ivy-Bridge: http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/27/intel-delays-ivy-bridge-launch-june/

Intel Delays Sandy-Bridge: http://9to5mac.com/2011/01/31/intel...ps-imac-and-macbook-pro-timetables-to-suffer/

Intel Delays Nahalem; http://techreport.com/news/16243/report-mainstream-nehalem-variants-delayed


Anyone starting to see a trend here? And literally it looks like features keeps getting postponed to the next, next release. If you look at all the goals they try to achieve with their next micro processor, it seems that half the things keep getting delayed.

So I wouldn't be surprised if half of the broadwell features gets delayed to Skylake as well. Who wants to start the Waiting for Skylake MBP thread?



I think I might just get Haswell version now.

 

[Wuiffi]

So I wouldn't be surprised if half of the broadwell features gets delayed to Skylake as well. Who wants to start the Waiting for Skylake MBP thread?

There is one. I'm not kidding ^^

 

[AdolfCaesar]

Broadwell is less important then maxwell and igzo.

 

[Wuiffi]

Broadwell is less important then maxwell and igzo.

Who knows if there will even be Maxwell (or dedicated GPUs in general) in the next Macbook Pros. And for IGZO, I guess it is good, but not "the savior of the macbook". I mean LTPS is probably an even better display technology, but no one is waiting for that (because it is probably too expensive to ever come to big screens)

 

[zI INFINITY Iz]

Who knows if there will even be Maxwell (or dedicated GPUs in general) in the next Macbook Pros. And for IGZO, I guess it is good, but not "the savior of the macbook". I mean LTPS is probably an even better display technology, but no one is waiting for that (because it is probably too expensive to ever come to big screens)

It's correct that nobody knows if there will be a Maxwell dGPU in the next MacBook Pro's. Nobody knows exactly what Maxwell will bring. What I do know is this: if Maxwell indeed doubles or triples the performance of this generation dGPU's, I'd rather get a good sub 2000 Windows machine with a superb Maxwell dGPU (something like the "850M" or "865M").

Even this generation, the best iGPU is lacking in enough ways compared to the 750M. And to go even further, the 750M is a joke compared to what you find on desktop's. I read a nice article on Anandtech about "what you pay for mobility". While the difference between laptop and desktop has gotten much smaller CPU wise, the differences are still enormous on the GPU side. And then go from desktop GPU to mobile to iGPU... anyway. Broadwell iGPU might see a 40% increase, Maxwell might see a 200-300% increase. The differences get even larger. Why would I pay 2600 for a laptop with iGPU (broadwell) only, instead of a 1500-2000 Windows laptop with similar specs and a dGPU Maxwell? I think that would be to much of a difference to justify the price difference.

One thing is sure though, NVIDIA's Maxwell dGPU's are coming and there's a big chance I want them in a laptop. If they turn out to be such an improvement as told till now, I hope Apple does the right thing.

 

[Wuiffi]

Why would I pay 2600 for a laptop with iGPU (broadwell) only, instead of a 1500-2000 Windows laptop with similar specs and a dGPU Maxwell?

There you go.

Ok seriously, if you are after graphic performance macs are not for you and never were. Right now the situation is not perfect, with the Macbook at the same price with and without dGPU, but drop the price of the iGPU only version by 100-200$ and I guess a lot of people would go for it.
I am past my gaming on a notebook days and a good performance device without a dGPU (failed in nearly every computer I owned) for a fair price would be cool

 

[zI INFINITY Iz]

There you go.

Ok seriously, if you are after graphic performance macs are not for you and never were. Right now the situation is not perfect, with the Macbook at the same price with and without dGPU, but drop the price of the iGPU only version by 100-200$ and I guess a lot of people would go for it.
I am past my gaming on a notebook days and a good performance device without a dGPU (failed in nearly every computer I owned) for a fair price would be cool

A similar formula of the 15" Haswell base model, next year with Broadwell and the 40% stronger iGPU, for $1799? Now that's a great thing suddenly, I agree. But don't ask 2600 for something with an iGPU only while other (much) cheaper things would come with a much, much stronger next-gen dGPU. There is a point where it just becomes absurd and the lines "Mac's are overpriced" and "you get a better deal with a 1000$ cheaper Windows laptop" become true.

 

[Wuiffi]

There is a point where it just becomes absurd and the lines "Mac's are overpriced" and "you get a better deal with a 1000$ cheaper Windows laptop" become true.

Yes Macs need to have some sort of good/average GPU performance, but in my opinion it doesn't matter if it comes from an iGPU oder dGPU. Nobody knows if next years Macbook Pro will have a dGPU. I think it will go something like this:
2014 Macbook Pro without dGPU but with an build to order option (not like now, but you can add it to any configured macbook for some 100-200$)
2015 Macbooks drop the dGPU completely. Performance is a bit below what they could do with dGPU (as they did before with the 13" model or the Mac Mini)
2016 Intel integrated Graphics will deliver similar performance to midclass GPUs

Btw my girlfriend is sitting right next to me with a 2.6/16/512 late 2013 rMBP WITHOUT dGPU and couldn't be happier. I don't see a 1000$ Win Notebook keep up with the performance, build quality and "all the little thing" (touchpad, keyboard, screen....)

 

[The Leafs Fan]

Intel Delays Haswell: http://www.techpowerup.com/178068/intel-core-haswell-delayed-till-computex-2013-no-show-at-ces.html

Intel Delays Ivy-Bridge: http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/27/intel-delays-ivy-bridge-launch-june/

Intel Delays Sandy-Bridge: http://9to5mac.com/2011/01/31/intel...ps-imac-and-macbook-pro-timetables-to-suffer/

Intel Delays Nahalem; http://techreport.com/news/16243/report-mainstream-nehalem-variants-delayed


Anyone starting to see a trend here? And literally it looks like features keeps getting postponed to the next, next release. If you look at all the goals they try to achieve with their next micro processor, it seems that half the things keep getting delayed.

So I wouldn't be surprised if half of the broadwell features gets delayed to Skylake as well. Who wants to start the Waiting for Skylake MBP thread?



I think I might just get Haswell version now.

They initially delayed it once,but any other delays have just been rumours circulating around, not something Intel actually announced. And I don 't understand why you feel the need to link Intel track record over the past couple of years for delays, this is the waiting for Broadwell thread. Trends can be useful, but we were specifically talking about Broadwell delays. Just saying.
Also the Haswell link is dead.

----------

It's correct that nobody knows if there will be a Maxwell dGPU in the next MacBook Pro's. Nobody knows exactly what Maxwell will bring. What I do know is this: if Maxwell indeed doubles or triples the performance of this generation dGPU's, I'd rather get a good sub 2000 Windows machine with a superb Maxwell dGPU (something like the "850M" or "865M").

Even this generation, the best iGPU is lacking in enough ways compared to the 750M. And to go even further, the 750M is a joke compared to what you find on desktop's. I read a nice article on Anandtech about "what you pay for mobility". While the difference between laptop and desktop has gotten much smaller CPU wise, the differences are still enormous on the GPU side. And then go from desktop GPU to mobile to iGPU... anyway. Broadwell iGPU might see a 40% increase, Maxwell might see a 200-300% increase. The differences get even larger. Why would I pay 2600 for a laptop with iGPU (broadwell) only, instead of a 1500-2000 Windows laptop with similar specs and a dGPU Maxwell? I think that would be to much of a difference to justify the price difference.

One thing is sure though, NVIDIA's Maxwell dGPU's are coming and there's a big chance I want them in a laptop. If they turn out to be such an improvement as told till now, I hope Apple does the right thing.

I really doubt that Maxwell will see a 200-300% increase in power. I just think they're making claims perhaps a specific (probably desktop GPU), and making it look like their whole line of GPUs are improving by the same factor.

 

[mcarling]

Regarding the future of dGPU's: I think it's more relevant if they will change the body of the 15" rMBP or not for the next version. If they don't, the space is still there for a dGPU. In that case I'm sure there will be a model with a dGPU again (probably the high-end one like this Haswell generation).

There are many other things which Apple may choose to do with the space now occupied by the discrete GPU. For example, Apple may decide to offer a 32GB BTO option, in which case board space will be at a premium.

Don't forget that Apple's target market is shifting more and more towards the mainstream. They don't know what Iris Pro is, they don't have the patience to learn what it is. They know that NVIDIA graphics are "strong" and would laugh that a 2000-2600 dollar/euro laptop doesn't come with an "NVIDIA chip".

I can perfectly imagine so many people I know saying "pffff don't buy Apple laptops, they cost so much and don't even come with NVIDIA graphics, while other 800,- laptops do, lol!!!" It's sad but I understand those reactions if you have a very limited knowledge of this stuff.

The logic you present here actually argues against including Nvidia graphics and offering Intel integrated graphics instead because the masses know and think positively of Intel but mostly have never heard of Nvidia. "pffff don't buy Apple laptops, they cost so much and don't even come with Intel graphics …." Intel has vastly higher name recognition than Nvidia and probably somewhat higher positive associations as well as, for mainstream consumers.

 

[Count Blah]

There you go.

Ok seriously, if you are after graphic performance macs are not for you and never were. Right now the situation is not perfect, with the Macbook at the same price with and without dGPU, but drop the price of the iGPU only version by 100-200$ and I guess a lot of people would go for it.
I am past my gaming on a notebook days and a good performance device without a dGPU (failed in nearly every computer I owned) for a fair price would be cool

The 2012 rMBP, was a legit trade off - not the best, but capable for the amount you pay(base+Apple tax). You can't make that statement anymore.

 

[Vanilla35]

There are many other things which Apple may choose to do with the space now occupied by the discrete GPU. For example, Apple may decide to offer a 32GB BTO option, in which case board space will be at a premium.


The logic you present here actually argues against including Nvidia graphics and offering Intel integrated graphics instead because the masses know and think positively of Intel but mostly have never heard of Nvidia. "pffff don't buy Apple laptops, they cost so much and don't even come with Intel graphics …." Intel has vastly higher name recognition than Nvidia and probably somewhat higher positive associations as well as, for mainstream consumers.

Speaking from personal experience (back when I was like 13 and knew nothing of computers) that's not the conclusion I came to. I knew intel was good for computers, but I also related Nvidia to powerful gaming, thus graphics. There is aboslutely no connection I had with Intel being that it would be good with graphics. Not sure how I made the connection between CPU and GPU before I really knew the difference but I guess I did.

Btw most "assumptions" come from things like stickers put on computers. Those that come with Nvidia graphics have the sticker in the bottom right corner (next to the intel sticker) that say it has Nividia on board. Therefore one would assume that the Nivida computer, is better than one without that sticker, for graphics.

(Speaking of window's computers - obviously mac's don't have stickers)

 

[Vanilla35]

Aside from my previous post:

While it is true that no one can predict what apple will do next. I think it is quite obvious from what they've done that they're continuing to strive towards dropping the dGPU completely...they just decreased the price of the computer by $200. They're wouldn't have done that had they not planned to phase out the dGPU eventually. The true question lies in interpreting their future strategy based on what they did with the high-end model. They force you to buy a fully spec'd out model for the 750M this year. ( <-- that's the decision to analyze).

It makes me think that they will get rid of a standard dGPU next year. Especially if Maxwell dGPU's increase in price a little bit (likely imo, as we're still in a semi volatile period in the market with companies erring on the side of conservatism), I find it likely they will have only a BTO order dGPU next year, or maybe if their strategy is more daring they will take dGPU out of the equation completely. You can also look at how they are essentially giving you a "free" 750M (in the high-end model) this year and notice that with them doing this they are eating a bit of profit margin from the product (they make more money off the lower-end model, than the higher end model because of this). That's not something a company would normally do, unless it was, maybe, a bypass for a new strategy - to be fully implemented next year with cutting the dGPU cut out completely (to remain as a BTO, or maybe not even).

 

[827538]

Just had a quick skim over some of the points being made.
I'm using a late 2013 Haswell rMBP with the 750M. While it's not exactly a GTX 780Ti, it's not slow my any means.

I've completed Metro Last Light on High settings at 1680x1050 getting 30-35FPS usually. I have been playing BF4 on a mix of high and ultra settings at this same resolution getting anywhere from 35-55FPS. Another thing I noted using GPU-z was the utilisation of the 2GB VRAM with BF4 using around 1.8GB playing on large 64player matches. Also been playing Skyrim on ultra without a problem.

The biggest issue with iGPU vs dGPU is the VRAM and until this changes to include a 2GB or larger portion of VRAM it will always remain inferior. This is a very capable gaming system for such a small and sleek package, fan noise isn't even a big issue, as the game sounds easily mask it. I will be eagerly waiting to see what Apple do next year and if it will be worth the upgrade to Broadwell. But a Broadwell i7 + Maxwell 850M sounds very appealing.

Also Apple should be paying me commission, a friend of mine at university just bought herself a rMBP after gaming on mine!

 

[iKrivetko]

Just had a quick skim over some of the points being made.
I'm using a late 2013 Haswell rMBP with the 750M. While it's not exactly a GTX 780Ti, it's not slow my any means.

I've completed Metro Last Light on High settings at 1680x1050 getting 30-35FPS usually. I have been playing BF4 on a mix of high and ultra settings at this same resolution getting anywhere from 35-55FPS. Another thing I noted using GPU-z was the utilisation of the 2GB VRAM with BF4 using around 1.8GB playing on large 64player matches. Also been playing Skyrim on ultra without a problem.

The biggest issue with iGPU vs dGPU is the VRAM and until this changes to include a 2GB or larger portion of VRAM it will always remain inferior. This is a very capable gaming system for such a small and sleek package, fan noise isn't even a big issue, as the game sounds easily mask it. I will be eagerly waiting to see what Apple do next year and if it will be worth the upgrade to Broadwell. But a Broadwell i7 + Maxwell 850M sounds very appealing.

Also Apple should be paying me commission, a friend of mine at university just bought herself a rMBP after gaming on mine!

It's not the amount of RAM that matters for the iGPU, since that is merely a software issue. The main bottleneck is the bandwidth of the RAM. Iris Pro is just about as fast as a 650/750 if you give the latter DDR3 memory, often even faster. But as soon as they get GDDR5 VRAM, things get different. So if intel really wants to compete with dGPUs, they need to get that issue fixed, say, with HMC.

 

[827538]

It's not the amount of RAM that matters for the iGPU, since that is merely a software issue. The main bottleneck is the bandwidth of the RAM. Iris Pro is just about as fast as a 650/750 if you give the latter DDR3 memory, often even faster. But as soon as they get GDDR5 VRAM, things get different. So if intel really wants to compete with dGPUs, they need to get that issue fixed, say, with HMC.

I don't believe the Iris Pro is as fast as the 650M/750M, close, but not quite. Still a solid effort from Intel, but to get any faster they are going to need to include more CU's, pipelines etc. No amount of fancy architecture will change that, then you run into the problem of having a massive and rather expensive die. DDR3 is a problem as GPU's need large amounts of memory bandwidth to feed them - just look at DDR3 vs GDDR5 versions of the same chips. The XBOne is going to run into severe issues with this over the coming years, using 32MB of ERAM aka L4 Cache is too small and inadequate for gaming, hell Iris Pro even has 128MB!
Intel's only solution is to use GDDR5 on die and that is prohibitively expensive, or OEM's like Apple and Dell include it themselves.

I still think the best solution is what we have currently, with a strong iGPU along with a solid dGPU. Looking forward to seeing how Maxwell performs, as my current 750M runs everything pretty well. If it received a 50% boost I would be extremely happy.

 

[Vanilla35]

Just had a quick skim over some of the points being made.
I'm using a late 2013 Haswell rMBP with the 750M. While it's not exactly a GTX 780Ti, it's not slow my any means.

I've completed Metro Last Light on High settings at 1680x1050 getting 30-35FPS usually. I have been playing BF4 on a mix of high and ultra settings at this same resolution getting anywhere from 35-55FPS. Another thing I noted using GPU-z was the utilisation of the 2GB VRAM with BF4 using around 1.8GB playing on large 64player matches. Also been playing Skyrim on ultra without a problem.

The biggest issue with iGPU vs dGPU is the VRAM and until this changes to include a 2GB or larger portion of VRAM it will always remain inferior. This is a very capable gaming system for such a small and sleek package, fan noise isn't even a big issue, as the game sounds easily mask it. I will be eagerly waiting to see what Apple do next year and if it will be worth the upgrade to Broadwell. But a Broadwell i7 + Maxwell 850M sounds very appealing.

Also Apple should be paying me commission, a friend of mine at university just bought herself a rMBP after gaming on mine!

While I agree with your points overall...it really just comes down to how conservative you are. I for one think 30-35 FPS for a shooter is barely passable. I'd probably bring that down to medium because I think 40-50+ is almost a must. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I am quick with my hands so I can't have the game stutter or lag if it runs at low frames like 30 FPS. Aside from that specific example (and yes it runs BF4 admirably - for what it is), my point about conservatism is that will this computer be acceptable for you down the line? You're playing a game from 2012, but what about the game that comes out in 2014? The 750M is basically the same tech from 2012, so you'd expect things to turn sour sooner rather than later.

My only point I guess is that if you're not in immediate need of a laptop, I think the choice to wait for broadwell will be a much smarter one, because right now you could probably buy a 2012 refurb and get the same performance as the current gen. (this is assuming you don't upgrade your computer every 2 years)

 

[iKrivetko]

I don't believe the Iris Pro is as fast as the 650M/750M, close, but not quite.

It is, actually. Have a look at notebookcheck. In most cases it is either on par or marginally slower.

Still a solid effort from Intel, but to get any faster they are going to need to include more CU's, pipelines etc. No amount of fancy architecture will change that, then you run into the problem of having a massive and rather expensive die.

True, but again: it is a very capable GPU, and the architecture isn't where the major bottleneck is.

DDR3 is a problem as GPU's need large amounts of memory bandwidth to feed them - just look at DDR3 vs GDDR5 versions of the same chips. The XBOne is going to run into severe issues with this over the coming years, using 32MB of ERAM aka L4 Cache is too small and inadequate for gaming, hell Iris Pro even has 128MB!

That is exactly what I said: the performance of iGPUs is EXTREMELY hindered by the RAM. As soon as we get faster RAM, their performance will skyrocket.

Intel's only solution is to use GDDR5 on die and that is prohibitively expensive, or OEM's like Apple and Dell include it themselves.

They can't use GDDR5 on die due to its poor latency. It's inefficient as a cache. The best solution on the horizon is the HMC, that has both low latency and high bandwidth, but that is a very young technology and will probably not appear in mainstream computers as soon as we'd like it to.

I still think the best solution is what we have currently, with a strong iGPU along with a solid dGPU. Looking forward to seeing how Maxwell performs, as my current 750M runs everything pretty well. If it received a 50% boost I would be extremely happy.

I can't quite agree with you. This combo has its flaws, and as integrated solutions will likely keep closing the performance gap, the extra heat and power draw, generated by dGPUs will be getting less and less worthy of the hassle. However, at the moment it has no alternatives if you actually need all that graphics power.

In bold

 

[zI INFINITY Iz]

My only point I guess is that if you're not in immediate need of a laptop, I think the choice to wait for broadwell will be a much smarter one, because right now you could probably buy a 2012 refurb and get the same performance as the current gen. (this is assuming you don't upgrade your computer every 2 years)

Totally agree on this. A few other big reasons aside, this is one of the reasons I returned my 15" Haswell rMBP and decided waiting till June/October 2014. Will have to manage with my Dell XPS 13" ultrabook (Ivy Bridge) till then, but it's ok.

I have two big problems with Ultrabooks/MBA in general: 1. working hard for hours on a 13" screen is not a nice experience for me and 2. performance is "just" enough for my programs. Got myself a very nice 24" Dell monitor for €239, so I at least solved the problem of working for long periods of time on a 13" screen. Really hated that. Now I got a very portable laptop and a large screen at home. Only thing missing is performance

For June/October/whenever the next MBP's might come, I'm going to reconsider between a 13" or 15" form factor. If the next 13" rMBP has enough power (especially GPU wise), I might prefer it. Go as small and light as possible on the road, big screen at home. Not a bad thing after all haha.

Though if the next 15" MBP's come with Maxwell (and they are as good told), it might become a hard choice again. And who knows what the next MBA's are going to be like... really interested in 2014.