Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[frow3n]

Power efficiency is probably the reason I will hold out... They may even come this year though...
Fingers crossed!

1. Power savings + haswell + mavericks = 16 hour battery life?
2. Resolution would be improved...

Reason why it wouldn't be here this year
1. Sharp's 13.3 is the right size however they don't currently make an IGZO panel that is the size of the 15 inch retina... its 0.2 too big I think.
This would call for a total redesign if Apple wanted to match the size of the IGZO display.
Perhaps they've already done that...

 

[Jordan-D]

Power efficiency is probably the reason I will hold out... They may even come this year though...
Fingers crossed!

1. Power savings + haswell + mavericks = 16 hour battery life?
2. Resolution would be improved...

Reason why it wouldn't be here this year
1. Sharp's 13.3 is the right size however they don't currently make an IGZO panel that is the size of the 15 inch retina... its 0.2 too big I think.
This would call for a total redesign if Apple wanted to match the size of the IGZO display.
Perhaps they've already done that...

Apple had custom built screens before it was available for its competitors (the iPhone 4's retina display for example)

 

[frow3n]

An adaptation of the chassis to fit the 15... or a tiny bezel could mean that we see the 15.6 display IGZO... but I'm very doubtful about that

 

[netcastle]

One event or two before Christmas? That seems to be the question.

One for new iPads would make sense because they are such a big part of apple's lineup. But it would be a pretty short event right? What are they going to talk about? "This is he new ipad and mini - thinner, lighter, sharper, faster..." Not much to say. It would be a short event, even if it included multiple models.

One for Mav and new hardware. This would include a whole lot to talk about - Mav, mp, Mbps, iMac, mini, new displays, tb2 capabilities, final cut, logic, yada yada yada...

I am betting on one blockbuster event which would include all of the above a few weeks before thanksgiving to ramp up for holiday sales.

Who's betting? First week in November?

 

[mcarling]

Power savings + haswell + mavericks = 16 hour battery life?

No, more like 10 hours probably. To get to 16 hour battery life with the size and weight of today's rMBPs, today's technology (constrained to battery technologies that would be allowed on aircraft), and at least the performance of today's rMBPs would require:
Power savings + haswell + mavericks + magic
The magic is probably unavailable.

 

[frow3n]

When I said power savings I meant IGZO display.. my bad!

What are the thoughts of the benefits that IGZO will bring... because I need to get a laptop to run Logic X but would like to wait till haswell. But above that I don't know if I should wait till IGZO or let that one pass?
I'm really not sure.. any ideas?

 

[GSPice]

When I said power savings I meant IGZO display.. my bad!

What are the thoughts of the benefits that IGZO will bring... because I need to get a laptop to run Logic X but would like to wait till haswell. But above that I don't know if I should wait till IGZO or let that one pass?
I'm really not sure.. any ideas?

Igzo is expected to draw significantly less power draw and faster refreshing. I'd try to find one of those Dell notebooks to see if it actually looks any different.

Performance and battery life usually chase each other though, so for example if IGZO added 6 hours of battery life (crazy illustration) Apple would most likely take advantage of that to increase the power of the notebook, bringing it down to 3 extra hours.

Can't imagine it affecting Logic Pro specifically one way or another.

 

[DHagan4755]

In looking at Dell's website, the new Precision mobile M4800 with their "retina" screen AND Haswell is estimated to ship on 10/7.

 

[SFrank]

Ok so I've been without a laptop now since I returned the 13 retina I bought in august (due to lag), and I started university in sept. If we dont see a rMBP soon I'll just go for the current rMBP 15.

Do any1 of you know if the problems with the 13" retina lagg, is it the same on the 15"?
Or does the quadqore fix the lagg issues with the retina?

 

[Rick-ITA]

I've tried for an hour an rMBP in a shop and it has lag.

Nothing exceptional, but annoying.

I guess the reason is a lack in the GPU power: HD4000 is simply not enough for such an hi-res screen. This is a typical 1st gen problem. Next gen with HD5100 will surely solve it.

I really need it, I hope it comes soon.

 

[ValSalva]

In looking at Dell's website, the new Precision mobile M4800 with their "retina" screen AND Haswell is estimated to ship on 10/7.

So Apple won't be that far behind.

That M4800 looks like something from 2000. And that tiny trackpad and even tinier trackpad buttons are an ergonomic mess. Same old Dell

 

[powerslave12r]

Ok so I've been without a laptop now since I returned the 13 retina I bought in august (due to lag), and I started university in sept. If we dont see a rMBP soon I'll just go for the current rMBP 15.

Do any1 of you know if the problems with the 13" retina lagg, is it the same on the 15"?
Or does the quadqore fix the lagg issues with the retina?

13" http://www.anandtech.com/show/6409/13inch-retina-macbook-pro-review/5

15" http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/8

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So Apple won't be that far behind.

That M4800 looks like something from 2000. And that tiny trackpad and even tinier trackpad buttons are an ergonomic mess. Same old Dell

And yet it is one of the best computers you can buy today. I wish their latitude line was the same old as well, I would have bought one in a pinch. Too bad they had to go out and make it into what it is now. If I can buy a E6510 with an FHD screen anywhere, I'll jump on it.

 

[AaronM5670]

That M4800 looks like something from 2000. And that tiny trackpad and even tinier trackpad buttons are an ergonomic mess. Same old Dell

Agreed.

 

[GSPice]

I guess the reason is a lack in the GPU power: HD4000 is simply not enough for such an hi-res screen.

This is simply not true. Search the forums and online for the real reason.

 

[Vanilla35]

Do any1 of you know if the problems with the 13" retina lagg, is it the same on the 15"?
Or does the quadqore fix the lagg issues with the retina?

The whole retina line-up lags (to my experience, and others). It might be fixed (at least 80%) by Mavericks. But there are a bunch of software problems linked to it. Don't expect it to be 100% gone

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I've tried for an hour an rMBP in a shop and it has lag.

Nothing exceptional, but annoying.

I guess the reason is a lack in the GPU power: HD4000 is simply not enough for such an hi-res screen. This is a typical 1st gen problem. Next gen with HD5100 will surely solve it.

I really need it, I hope it comes soon.

It's the the hardware. The HD4000 isn't a piece of cardboard, just because it's old Intel graphics. It can run resolution a little higher than 1080p. It's software optimization. There were a lot of kinks in there that I guess they either didn't notice, or didn't have to time fix. Most of it should be worked out with Mavericks, as some beta testers have (allegedly) said.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

If they're going to be there for 2014 I might actually skip Haswell. 2013 is unlikely though because it'll involve a resolution change (plus I think the current crop of IGZO screens are 16:9, which I don't think Apple wants to switch to).

If Sharp can manufacture those displays in principle (in volume and at cost) then Apple can order them in any shape or aspect ratio they want and Sharp will deliver. Even square.

 

[SFrank]

The whole retina line-up lags (to my experience, and others). It might be fixed (at least 80%) by Mavericks. But there are a bunch of software problems linked to it. Don't expect it to be 100% gone

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It's the the hardware. The HD4000 isn't a piece of cardboard, just because it's old Intel graphics. It can run resolution a little higher than 1080p. It's software optimization. There were a lot of kinks in there that I guess they either didn't notice, or didn't have to time fix. Most of it should be worked out with Mavericks, as some beta testers have (allegedly) said.

Should I just get the non retina then? Is it THAT big of a difference to have retina? I mean i Want to wait for the new one but honestly I had my hopes so high for september, I honestly don't feel like it will be released soon, there are 0 evidence suggesting it.

 

[PDFierro]

Should I just get the non retina then? Is it THAT big of a difference to have retina? I mean i Want to wait for the new one but honestly I had my hopes so high for september, I honestly don't feel like it will be released soon, there are 0 evidence suggesting it.

It isn't coming in September. October? Yes. Whether or not you have to have Retina depends on you. If you have an Apple store nearby, go compare them for yourself. For my uses, I wouldn't be able to use non-Retina. But keep in mind that there is a good chance the non-Retina MacBook Pro will be discontinued, so you're stuck with either the Air or the rMBP.

 

[Vanilla35]

So Apple won't be that far behind.

That M4800 looks like something from 2000. And that tiny trackpad and even tinier trackpad buttons are an ergonomic mess. Same old Dell

Very true

And yet it is one of the best computers you can buy today. I wish their latitude line was the same old as well, I would have bought one in a pinch. Too bad they had to go out and make it into what it is now. If I can buy a E6510 with an FHD screen anywhere, I'll jump on it.

They're always on top of their specs, including the latest and greatest. But their build quality, and intellectual design is lackluster. My friend bought a new inspiron the other week. I used it for a few minutes yesterday. The touch pad buttons are extremely cheap and actually "loose", the keyboard feels weak, and overall quality is just sub-par. In comparison, I spent $~700 (several years back) on my current laptop (Sony) and the quality is much better.

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Should I just get the non retina then? Is it THAT big of a difference to have retina? I mean i Want to wait for the new one but honestly I had my hopes so high for september, I honestly don't feel like it will be released soon, there are 0 evidence suggesting it.

I never said it was that much of a difference, but it annoys me slightly. It's one of those things you can forgive and hope they optimize eventually. I think your best bet is going with the cMBP because the new Retinas aren't gonna make their way out until late October anyway. Likely to be around October 20th (assuming an event is the 15th). But if you really want the Retina bad, then 1) you can return the cMBP before 30 days and 2) you'll forgo varying lag across the interface, and hope they'll fix it over time (likely - over time).

 

[Rick-ITA]

November 13, 2012 from Anandtech:

By far the biggest issue with buying the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display is that you know, in about a year, it'll be updated with even better hardware. It's very clear to me that the 13-inch rMBP was built with Haswell in mind. Without enough room for a discrete GPU, a CPU with significantly faster processor graphics (~2x in the case of Haswell) will open up the 13 to even more customers

------------

Regarding the lag, true I was wrong. The problem is in the hardware, but not on the GPU:

Next-generation GPUs should do a better job of driving these ultra high resolution displays, but today it looks like our biggest bottlenecks are software and single threaded CPU performance. In every situation where UI frame rate drops significantly on the rMBP, the offending application usually ends up consuming 100% of a single CPU core

(...)

There's not much you can do here other than wait for faster hardware or buy the fastest CPU available on whatever system you're considering. Single threaded performance will scale linearly with CPU clock speed, so higher clocked CPUs should deliver smoother scrolling performance. Ultimately just scaling CPU clock is an inefficient way to solve the current UI frame rate issues. Future revisions of OS X will likely shift even more UI workload to the GPU, plus we'll see new microprocessor architectures that will perform better with these types of workloads as well.


Correct me if I'm wrong: actually, due to the OS, much of the work is demanded to the CPU that is simply not fast enough to achieve a good frame rate. Hence the problem is both in hardware (the CPU) and software (the OS). Maverick will shift much of the work to the GPU, but in any case you will need a capable GPU or the bottleneck will simply be shifted from CPU to GPU.

To sum up, Apple worked hard to solve the lag problem. New CPUs will provide much more power (and will be optimized to work with hi-res panel), Maverick will reduce the workload on CPU and will shift it to GPU, GPU that receives the most significative upgrade.

 

[Krazy Bill]

Should I just get the non retina then? Is it THAT big of a difference to have retina?

Entirely up to you. Personal preference. Completely subjective. For people like me that use external monitors the lack of retina is a non issue. We've had non-retina screens for a very long time and somehow still managed to get things done. In all those years I don't ever recall wishing the display to be anything more than it was. (Because I knew what I was getting).

And don't neglect the upgradeability factor in the non-retinas either. Only yesterday, I gave somebody's cMBP (Early 2011) a complete overhaul. (New battery, 16GB RAM, SSD, etc.). Perhaps not the most cost effective approach but the point being, this is just so easy to do in the non-retina models. (And as of now, there is no way to get 16GB memory in a retina 13").

I honestly don't feel like it will be released soon, there are 0 evidence suggesting it.

This pretty much sums up the entire thread.

 

[GSPice]

After you see retina you can't go back.

 

[PDFierro]

After you see retina you can't go back.

Ain't that the truth. I can't look at an Air screen the same way again.

 

[OneCharmingQuar]

So Apple won't be that far behind.

That M4800 looks like something from 2000. And that tiny trackpad and even tinier trackpad buttons are an ergonomic mess. Same old Dell

One upside of the mouse input of the M4800 is the trackpointer. That way user who use the keyboard extensively don't need to move their hands as often. While I am a fan of the touchpad on macs, I don't think their hardware click buttons are very good either. It always surprises me when I walk into a store and clicking by tapping the touchpad is disabled by default. It seems like the best way to use them to me.

They're always on top of their specs, including the latest and greatest. But their build quality, and intellectual design is lackluster. My friend bought a new inspiron the other week. I used it for a few minutes yesterday. The touch pad buttons are extremely cheap and actually "loose", the keyboard feels weak, and overall quality is just sub-par. In comparison, I spent $~700 (several years back) on my current laptop (Sony) and the quality is much better.

"Build quality" and "intellectual design" depends on many different factors. The M4800 and M6800 laptops are designed to be durable, configurable and highly repairable. If these are your standards for "build quality" and "intellectual design" then the M4800 is far, far ahead of the rMBP. Dell is also coming out with the M3800 later this year. It is much more of a direct competitor to the 15 inch rMBP. I just hope they avoid inanely glueing the battery to the case. If MBAs and Ultrabooks can use screws to attach their batteries then I don't see why the rMBP should be cramped for space. It will be interesting to see if Windows 8 handles the higher resolution without the scroll lag seen in Apples products. It seems like it might.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4iPuzSIu8
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1483617/
I would definitely recommend anyone who is worried about the lag and gpu on the (probably) upcoming rMBP to look into the M3800. So far it's looking like a better machine than I would reasonably extrapolate the Haswell rMBP to be, at least on paper.

My aunt actually owns an Inspiron Dell. While I agree that the overall build quality isn't as good as a Macbook it was cheaper than any Macbook currently on the market, and it has a higher resolution display than any non-retina Macbook. It even beats the resolution on Macbooks that cost more than twice as much.

 

[frow3n]

Well... we could actually be looking at an IGZO display this october although highly unlikely it is still a possibility which is nice to know. I for one think it may actually happen if Dell can put it on a toaster (which they have) we can surely see it in a macbook pro... Considering that the rMBP is late already we may be lucky and get it earlier than we thought!