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Ah - more a fan of scotch whisky?
Haha! No, that's not why. @WRONG (hi!) and me participated in the epic Waiting for Skylake MBP thread. As we kept waiting for 12345 pages, Kaby Lake was announced, and I think one of the follow-up Lakes got its first mention. I started joking that I would only be satisfied by a Whiskey Lake. Guess what happened next? ;)

I wonder whether the real reason for no updates to Mac line-up is that everyone at Apple is just as confused about Sky/Kaby/Whiskey/Coffee/Amber/Ice/Some Other Lakes as I am.

‘waiting for the 2020 ARM MacBook Pro’
I hope to see the first ARM Macbook (Air?) and Mini this year. Once that happens, someone needs to start the 'Waiting for the 2020 tbARMBPA15X' thread.
 
"underpowered and overpriced"

Someone to inform Dave2D about the European prices of Apple products.
I am sure he will cut his veins when he will hear them, and make a new video telling hate feelings about Apple and their cynical attitude to their European customers.
And we talk about Europe, not third world countries.
So 'overpriced' even more than a normal mind could imagine.
Apple started the trade war early. They're leading the way in this category, just like in anti-sustainability.
[doublepost=1531085819][/doublepost]
Haha! No, that's not why. @WRONG (hi!) and me participated in the epic Waiting for Skylake MBP thread. As we kept waiting for 12345 pages, Kaby Lake was announced, and I think one of the follow-up Lakes got its first mention. I started joking that I would only be satisfied by a Whiskey Lake. Guess what happened next? ;)
Right, I'm going to wish for Tranquility Lake, Gore Lake, Banana Lake, Lava Lake, and You Are in a Maze of Twisty Little Passages Lake. I bet they can just about squeeze them in before 10nm launches.

On a slightly more serious note, Intel is probably a really poor business partner right now. They appear just about as confused about their strategy and product lineup as everyone else.* It's a shame that AMD doesn't really have a full range of mobile parts, and I'm not sure about things like TB3, LPDDR[34] etc.

* I can currently get the 7820X (Intel) with 8 cores and 28 PCIe lanes, or the 1950X (AMD) on sale with 16 cores and 64 PCIe lanes -- for nearly the same price, at least within the same price range. That situation has gone from Intel being painfully overpriced, to Intel just being completely wiped out of the market place. Apple not quite there yet, but it's a similar situation.
 
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ARM would be the death of macbooks. Being able to run Windows remains important to th models. Take that away as a shift to ARM would and it will die
I've read this time and time again, but do we actually know for certain that we won't be able to run Windows on Macs anymore if Apple decides to use a derivative of the A-series chips in their Macs as rumored, and if that's so, why? Back in the days of the switch from PowerPC to Intel, Apple provided Rosetta for many years as a means to run PowerPC-software on Intel chips, so who is to say that they won't come up with a comparable emulation method this time around and this won't include the possibility to run Windows via BootCamp like we can now?
 
ARM would be the death of macbooks. Being able to run Windows remains important to th models. Take that away as a shift to ARM would and it will die
Ideally (for me) they would have both. Lower end laptops could be a really great fit for ARM processors. Higher end laptops should still be x86, and if they were to switch over to Ryzen processors that could be ideal. I doubt this would happen though, as they would have to maintain two of everything. It's probably not an engineering problem at all, but quite confusing for non-tech users.
[doublepost=1531087969][/doublepost]
I've read this time and time again, but do we actually know for certain that we won't be able to run Windows on Macs anymore if Apple decides to use a derivative of the A-series chips in their Macs as rumored, and if that's so, why? Back in the days of the switch from PowerPC to Intel, Apple provided Rosetta for many years as a means to run PowerPC-software on Intel chips, so who is to say that they won't come up with a comparable emulation method this time around and this won't include the possibility to run Windows via BootCamp like we can now?
You could say Windows for ARM, but it's not really about running Windows, it's about running apps that require Windows. So maybe you're saying run Windows apps in emulation, or maybe the whole Windows installation in emulation. There may be a time in the future when that's feasible, but we just haven't seen any evidence or even indications that the technology is there for that yet. On the contrary, we've actually seen a decent bit of evidence of the opposite.

And beyond that, it would be a complex solution to something that isn't even a problem currently. Complex solutions can be required sometimes, but usually come with significant maintenance drawbacks. Simple solutions tend to end up working best. ARM processors is most likely a push from the accountants, not from the engineers.

For me personally though, I don't currently need Windows for my Mac. I have separate Windows boxes. I've been playing with the idea of getting a more capable MBP and dual booting Windows -- it would be more convenient to have more on one single machine. But with current pricing it's just nowhere near worth it anyway.
 
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I've read this time and time again, but do we actually know for certain that we won't be able to run Windows on Macs anymore if Apple decides to use a derivative of the A-series chips in their Macs as rumored, and if that's so, why? Back in the days of the switch from PowerPC to Intel, Apple provided Rosetta for many years as a means to run PowerPC-software on Intel chips, so who is to say that they won't come up with a comparable emulation method this time around and this won't include the possibility to run Windows via BootCamp like we can now?

Eh if i recall correctly its down to CPU instruction set problem. x86 are CISC type processors, while ARM is a RISC type processor. They are fundamentally different and from time immemorial windows is based in CISC, so writing a window version that would run on RISC would be like starting from scratch. Microsoft would have no interested in doing that I would tend to think. More on RISC vs CISC: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14794460/how-does-the-arm-architecture-differ-from-x86#14795541
 
There are (or soon will be) arm devices that run Windows 10 and can run x86 Windows apps via emulation similar to Rosetta. It’s slow, only supports 32-bit at the moment and doesn’t always work but maybe by the time Apple releases arm laptops it might work better.

A side question... are we sure the Apple designed processors will be ARM based? The original rumor I read only said Apple would design their own processors. Is it possible that they are developing an Intel compatible processor?
 
Eh if i recall correctly its down to CPU instruction set problem. x86 are CISC type processors, while ARM is a RISC type processor. They are fundamentally different and from time immemorial windows is based in CISC, so writing a window version that would run on RISC would be like starting from scratch. Microsoft would have no interested in doing that I would tend to think. More on RISC vs CISC: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14794460/how-does-the-arm-architecture-differ-from-x86#14795541
It's not so much RISC vs CISC. It's just that it's a completely architecture, and executables for one won't normally run on the other. Windows actually exists for ARM already, you can buy an ARM Windows laptop today. In the past, Windows has also been available (though maybe not widely) on PowerPC, DEC Alpha, MIPS and Itanium. All of these are RISC architectures, so it's clear that Microsoft has a long long history of being interested in putting Windows on other platforms than x86, and maybe RISC in particular. In contrast, the M68k architecture from the 80's was also very much CISC, but it could never run Windows.

For those interested, here's a longer explanation of architectures.

CPU's execute binary machine code programs. Briefly, they are encoded primitive instructions that can only do super simple things like add and subtract, multiply, divide, jump to another part of the code base on some condition, move data from memory into the registers, or move from registers to memory. And more, but effectively very primitive operations. These operations are very closely tied to the hardware. They cannot understand html, they have no idea what Windows is, nor macOS/Linux, and while some may have hardware support for higher level functionality, they can't play music or videos, they don't know how to do encryption, they don't know anything about networking etc etc. Now, these primitive operations are encoded as binary code (zeros and ones) and they can be loaded from memory and executed. This is how programmers can start making these processors actually do something meaningful.

However, through the history of computing, there have been many different ideas on how to best build processors, many different ideas on how to best create this encoding of the machine code, and so on. CISC for example, is the idea of making the primitive operations do more, so they become more useful, powerful and easier to use. Which is great for machine code programmers, but the downside is that the processor hardware gets increasingly complex (=expensive) to build and maintain. RISC on the other hand goes the other way. It aims to make the primitive operations as primitive as possible in order to make the hardware much easier to build. Early on this meant that they could run higher clock frequencies for example, but that's less of a point now. And there are variations within RISC and CISC as well. The point is that the encodings are different, so a program that is encoded for one processor, will just be garbage on another and won't run.

Now the thing is that programs on your desktop, your laptop, your iPad and iPhone (Android phones are slightly different), servers, most embedded devices etc etc. are all using these binary encodings and are therefore incompatible across processor architectures. You'd think that in 2018, lightyears away from the beginnings of computing in the 60's and 70's, we wouldn't be doing things this way anymore, but we still do. There are exceptions of course, but a very large part of the programs we use carry this incompatibility.

The thing with current Mac hardware is that it's very similar to PC/Windows hardware. Current Macs are effectively flavors of PCs, with some extras. This is why you can bootcamp into Windows very easily, while you were never able to do this back in the PowerPC days as I recall.

So if this is the case, why can't you take Notepad (or any other Windows program) from your PC and run it on your Mac? They are programs for the same hardware architecture then, aren't they?

Yes. However... a program like Notepad also depends on some other things. It needs to be able to open the application window. For this it needs to interact with the operating system. Notepad asks the operating system to produce a window, and it's actually the operating system that does the hard work there. It's the same for macOS, and the same for Linux. Problem is just that they all use different methods of asking for that window to be opened. If a Windows program (like Notepad) asks macOS to open a window, it's not going to understand the request and again we have garbage. It's like when you go to a fast food place and you try to order, but they don't speak your language so they just slap a bluescreen in your face. Well, they might.

So there are multiple levels of architecture at play, the processor architecture, and also the operating system architecture. This whole structure is actually incredibly complex today, for all three major operating systems. Anyone is welcome to dive into binary file formats and shared library dependencies and find out what amazing problems you can come across. It used to be somewhat simple back in the day :)

Of course, there has always been a lot of interest in bridging these architecture gaps. We want access to Windows apps on the Mac, that's why we bootcamp into Windows. Some may want to run macOS on non-Apple hardware. Developers want to be able to test run iPhone apps on their MBP. There are several methods for achieving this, some work better than others. But in short, if you want things to run quite fast, you'd better not be inserting too many translation layers (like emulation). It very quickly slows things down very much. We can successfully emulate old games consoles or Commodore machines like the C64 or Amiga, but that's simply because todays computers are on the order of hundreds of thousands times faster. It's not going to matter if we lose 2x or 4x or even 10x due to emulation. But emulating current architectures is a whole different thing.

Now I wrote above that CISC was great for machine code programmers, and RISC wasn't. This was meaningful in the 70's when we wrote programs in machine language, but ever since then we use compilers to create them for us. So when crossing architecture boundaries from one processor to another, a simple solution is simply to recompile the program. This is how Mac moved from PowerPC to Intel, and it's how it would move from Intel to ARM. For the apps that get recompiled it won't actually be much of a problem at all. The main issue there is that many apps won't get recompiled, for various reasons. It's the same when bridging from Windows on x86 to Windows on ARM. Apps could get recompiled and run much faster, but so far that mostly hasn't happened. And of course, the other architectural gap is harder. A Windows program won't seamlessly recompile for macOS, and vice versa.

So if Apple wanted to put macOS on ARM, would it have to create a version of macOS for ARM? Yes. But they already have one. Why can I be so sure? macOS and iOS share the same low level building blocks. You can think of it as the same operating system, but with different graphical interfaces. There's a bit more to it than that, but effectively, Apple would already have 95% of an ARM macOS based on what they have for iOS and on recompiling macOS. Most of it should work seamlessly. There will be a remaining 5% or less that is effectively getting some device drivers and kernel things to work on the new device. Tricky stuff, but it's been done many times before.

So this is why people are concerned about not being able to run Windows if MBP switches to ARM. It's not a problem to build the hardware or the operating system. It's mostly not a problem with Mac apps, though only a subset of apps would carry over. It is however a problem with Windows apps, because you have not one, but two architectural gaps to cross over. Both the processor gap and the operating system gap. As long as x86 is alive and well and is where the performance is, that's also where the apps are going to be.

In closing, I hope this was useful to you or someone else. Or that anyway even read it! If you did, maybe at the very least it provided some distraction while waiting for unreleased fruit branded products :)

For the hackintoshers in despair, just imagine the insane value of a Raspberry Pi Hackintosh and you get to smile again :)
[doublepost=1531102991][/doublepost]
There are (or soon will be) arm devices that run Windows 10 and can run x86 Windows apps via emulation similar to Rosetta. It’s slow, only supports 32-bit at the moment and doesn’t always work but maybe by the time Apple releases arm laptops it might work better.

A side question... are we sure the Apple designed processors will be ARM based? The original rumor I read only said Apple would design their own processors. Is it possible that they are developing an Intel compatible processor?
It's not really possible for it to be x86, simply because the licensing for x86 is very locked down and unavailable for new entries. In theory everything is possible, but it's very unlikely. Not a technology thing, I'm sure Apple could make an x86 processor just the same as an ARM one.

Emulation is also... not a technology thing I would argue. We don't have the technology today to do near native speed x86 emulation on ARM. I would however, expect that this could be developed if just enough money, time and effort were put into it. I don't currently see anyone having a strong enough incentive to put solid amounts of money into this, so that's why I wouldn't expect it to happen in the near future.
 
It's not so much RISC vs CISC. It's just that it's a completely architecture, and executables for one won't normally run on the other. Windows actually exists for ARM already, you can buy an ARM Windows laptop today. In the past, Windows has also been available (though maybe not widely) on PowerPC, DEC Alpha, MIPS and Itanium. All of these are RISC architectures, so it's clear that Microsoft has a long long history of being interested in putting Windows on other platforms than x86, and maybe RISC in particular. In contrast, the M68k architecture from the 80's was also very much CISC, but it could never run Windows.

For those interested, here's a longer explanation of architectures.

CPU's execute binary machine code programs. Briefly, they are encoded primitive instructions that can only do super simple things like add and subtract, multiply, divide, jump to another part of the code base on some condition, move data from memory into the registers, or move from registers to memory. And more, but effectively very primitive operations. These operations are very closely tied to the hardware. They cannot understand html, they have no idea what Windows is, nor macOS/Linux, and while some may have hardware support for higher level functionality, they can't play music or videos, they don't know how to do encryption, they don't know anything about networking etc etc. Now, these primitive operations are encoded as binary code (zeros and ones) and they can be loaded from memory and executed. This is how programmers can start making these processors actually do something meaningful.

However, through the history of computing, there have been many different ideas on how to best build processors, many different ideas on how to best create this encoding of the machine code, and so on. CISC for example, is the idea of making the primitive operations do more, so they become more useful, powerful and easier to use. Which is great for machine code programmers, but the downside is that the processor hardware gets increasingly complex (=expensive) to build and maintain. RISC on the other hand goes the other way. It aims to make the primitive operations as primitive as possible in order to make the hardware much easier to build. Early on this meant that they could run higher clock frequencies for example, but that's less of a point now. And there are variations within RISC and CISC as well. The point is that the encodings are different, so a program that is encoded for one processor, will just be garbage on another and won't run.

Now the thing is that programs on your desktop, your laptop, your iPad and iPhone (Android phones are slightly different), servers, most embedded devices etc etc. are all using these binary encodings and are therefore incompatible across processor architectures. You'd think that in 2018, lightyears away from the beginnings of computing in the 60's and 70's, we wouldn't be doing things this way anymore, but we still do. There are exceptions of course, but a very large part of the programs we use carry this incompatibility.

The thing with current Mac hardware is that it's very similar to PC/Windows hardware. Current Macs are effectively flavors of PCs, with some extras. This is why you can bootcamp into Windows very easily, while you were never able to do this back in the PowerPC days as I recall.

So if this is the case, why can't you take Notepad (or any other Windows program) from your PC and run it on your Mac? They are programs for the same hardware architecture then, aren't they?

Yes. However... a program like Notepad also depends on some other things. It needs to be able to open the application window. For this it needs to interact with the operating system. Notepad asks the operating system to produce a window, and it's actually the operating system that does the hard work there. It's the same for macOS, and the same for Linux. Problem is just that they all use different methods of asking for that window to be opened. If a Windows program (like Notepad) asks macOS to open a window, it's not going to understand the request and again we have garbage. It's like when you go to a fast food place and you try to order, but they don't speak your language so they just slap a bluescreen in your face. Well, they might.

So there are multiple levels of architecture at play, the processor architecture, and also the operating system architecture. This whole structure is actually incredibly complex today, for all three major operating systems. Anyone is welcome to dive into binary file formats and shared library dependencies and find out what amazing problems you can come across. It used to be somewhat simple back in the day :)

Of course, there has always been a lot of interest in bridging these architecture gaps. We want access to Windows apps on the Mac, that's why we bootcamp into Windows. Some may want to run macOS on non-Apple hardware. Developers want to be able to test run iPhone apps on their MBP. There are several methods for achieving this, some work better than others. But in short, if you want things to run quite fast, you'd better not be inserting too many translation layers (like emulation). It very quickly slows things down very much. We can successfully emulate old games consoles or Commodore machines like the C64 or Amiga, but that's simply because todays computers are on the order of hundreds of thousands times faster. It's not going to matter if we lose 2x or 4x or even 10x due to emulation. But emulating current architectures is a whole different thing.

Now I wrote above that CISC was great for machine code programmers, and RISC wasn't. This was meaningful in the 70's when we wrote programs in machine language, but ever since then we use compilers to create them for us. So when crossing architecture boundaries from one processor to another, a simple solution is simply to recompile the program. This is how Mac moved from PowerPC to Intel, and it's how it would move from Intel to ARM. For the apps that get recompiled it won't actually be much of a problem at all. The main issue there is that many apps won't get recompiled, for various reasons. It's the same when bridging from Windows on x86 to Windows on ARM. Apps could get recompiled and run much faster, but so far that mostly hasn't happened. And of course, the other architectural gap is harder. A Windows program won't seamlessly recompile for macOS, and vice versa.

So if Apple wanted to put macOS on ARM, would it have to create a version of macOS for ARM? Yes. But they already have one. Why can I be so sure? macOS and iOS share the same low level building blocks. You can think of it as the same operating system, but with different graphical interfaces. There's a bit more to it than that, but effectively, Apple would already have 95% of an ARM macOS based on what they have for iOS and on recompiling macOS. Most of it should work seamlessly. There will be a remaining 5% or less that is effectively getting some device drivers and kernel things to work on the new device. Tricky stuff, but it's been done many times before.

So this is why people are concerned about not being able to run Windows if MBP switches to ARM. It's not a problem to build the hardware or the operating system. It's mostly not a problem with Mac apps, though only a subset of apps would carry over. It is however a problem with Windows apps, because you have not one, but two architectural gaps to cross over. Both the processor gap and the operating system gap. As long as x86 is alive and well and is where the performance is, that's also where the apps are going to be.

In closing, I hope this was useful to you or someone else. Or that anyway even read it! If you did, maybe at the very least it provided some distraction while waiting for unreleased fruit branded products :)

For the hackintoshers in despair, just imagine the insane value of a Raspberry Pi Hackintosh and you get to smile again :)
[doublepost=1531102991][/doublepost]
It's not really possible for it to be x86, simply because the licensing for x86 is very locked down and unavailable for new entries. In theory everything is possible, but it's very unlikely. Not a technology thing, I'm sure Apple could make an x86 processor just the same as an ARM one.

Emulation is also... not a technology thing I would argue. We don't have the technology today to do near native speed x86 emulation on ARM. I would however, expect that this could be developed if just enough money, time and effort were put into it. I don't currently see anyone having a strong enough incentive to put solid amounts of money into this, so that's why I wouldn't expect it to happen in the near future.

I don't have time to read all of that but I thank you for the detailed answer!
 
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I don't have time to read all of that but I thank you for the detailed answer!

I only took a computer architecture module for my MSc Computer Science a year ago - but I think I pretty much agree with him. ARM is still quite a long way away for performance computing (on most modern OS). It does however have a bright near future in low/mid range. Even then, it is only due to cost (there is a big saving to go the ARM route) and you will find there is noise being made that the Chromebooks et al are a bit too slow for people's liking. There are some fancy figures floated around in favour of ARM (e.g. 75% performance vs CISC CPU's in single core), but it is quite flattering to ARM and doesn't really tell the whole story.
 
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From Apple’s POV I see few reasons not to turn to in house ARM processors at this point in time - breaking compatibility with Windows x86 being one of the few (with windows ARM edition with an emulator itself anyway if you are desperate) the performance of emulation on devices running a snapdragon 835 is apparently a bit sluggish, but then that is literally a mobile phone chip, designed to sip power and be passively cooled. Give Apple’s team a TDP budget of 15W actively cooled and I think we will be looking at an entirely different situation.
 
From Apple’s POV I see few reasons not to turn to in house ARM processors at this point in time - breaking compatibility with Windows x86 being one of the few (with windows ARM edition with an emulator itself anyway if you are desperate) the performance of emulation on devices running a snapdragon 835 is apparently a bit sluggish, but then that is literally a mobile phone chip, designed to sip power and be passively cooled. Give Apple’s team a TDP budget of 15W actively cooled and I think we will be looking at an entirely different situation.

From Apple's point of view, if they break compatibility with Windows x86 they will lose many many customers!
 
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I don’t mind to wait for several month to avoid first bench of issues like sky lake had,and probably intel with apple to fix the meltdown and the other hardware malware
 
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I can't really imagine there is an update tomorrow. They know they have to fix that keyboard issue asap, because it could grow from a big problem to a huge problem.

Are there any information about the keyboard replacement parts? Are they updated? I saw a video and the author said it feels like it's the same 2nd gen keyboard.
 
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I can't really imagine there is an update tomorrow.
My concern with a silent update, i.e., no media event, is that there will be no information regarding the keyboard. I want to know explicitly if apple updated the keyboard. If a silent update does come through then I'll be forced to wait for teardowns to confirm/deny the existence of a new design.
 
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My concern with a silent update, i.e., no media event, is that there will be no information regarding the keyboard. I want to know explicitly if apple updated the keyboard. If a silent update does come through then I'll be forced to wait for teardowns to confirm/deny the existence of a new design.

Well that is what I'm talking about. The only video (I found) about the keyboard replacement is this guy (
) and he claims it's the same 2nd gen keyboard. I'm really surprised there is no video about the keyboard replacement program made by a iFixit or similar channel. It has been like two weeks, so a lot of the repaired MBP should be already back in hands of their owners...

If it's the same part, it's obvious Apple has problems with designing a flawless keyboard that will fit the current design.
 
To me the thing about touch on a windows laptop is that it isn’t about being the primary modus operandi - it is merely an additional way of interacting with the machine and the content it displays. Sometimes it’s easier to just use the keyboard and trackpad/mouse, while at other times you might want to manipulate the screen directly with your finger. To that end, it’s actually unnecessary to completely rework macOS for touch, as you just use the mouse when it makes sense.
Exactly! So funny to see these same people every time trying desperately to shoot the touch display idea down with nonsensical arguments. The TouchBar forces you to one thing no more physical esc button etc. but a touch display doesn’t force you to do anything or take away from anything. It really amazes me that in 2018 we have a new breed (the kids of the folks who used to stall innovation and progress) chiming in, similarly to how their parents did it a decade and two ago. Their arguments are always stupid stuff like “they would have to completely re-do everything about MacOS, fingerprint argument etc. just plain stupidity
 
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My concern with a silent update, i.e., no media event, is that there will be no information regarding the keyboard. I want to know explicitly if apple updated the keyboard. If a silent update does come through then I'll be forced to wait for teardowns to confirm/deny the existence of a new design.

Even if Apple updates the keyboard, I believe they will stay silent. They updated it on 2017 MBP, and didn't say a single word about it.

Best we can hope for is that they say BF keyboard 3.0, but I'm 100% sure they won't say something like 'we fixed those faulty keyboards, sorry for that kb glitch' :)
 
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From Apple's point of view, if they break compatibility with Windows x86 they will lose many many customers!
Really though? How many Mac customers do you think actually use bootcamp? I’m pretty sure most people who want a Mac want it for MacOS, and where they might also want/need Windows, they will buy a second windows computer because it’s easier/ better experience.

I think the key thing with windows compatibility isn’t that the computer is able to run windows, but that it’s programme output is interoperable with windows programmes (eg pages documents having an .docx compatibility feature) or that the system can be addressed by a windows server and read the files off/ save to it. This can be achieved on ARM with little more difficulty than x86 - look at the file types and internet server systems that work across windows and iOS, for example.
 
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