That might be complicating Intel's move to 10nm (or at least not helping).
I think its less about incurring more raw CPU power, but rather Apple in control of its own destiny. They will no longer be reliant on Intel.
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Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]
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Of course, but I think they would also love to be able to create their own RAM, displays, GPU's, SSD's etc - but none of them are feasible unless you are able to produce something market leading. I truthfully do not see Apple being able to pull one over Intel in the CPU department.
People forget that intel have decades of expertise making chips. Literally noone else has the experiecne they do and making such complex chips in bulk. Its not just a case of Apple simply throwing some of their cash mountain at it - you cannot buy that legacy of knowledge.
An interesting article on the matter: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-quitting-intel-processors/
Could be Apple first try it indeed on their low end MacBook - use it as a trial basis and see where it goes?
an excerpt:
For me, performance is probably only half of the challenge. Let's say I use Parallels/Bootcamp to load Windows and linux up, with all sorts of third party applications. Maybe I even install various third party dev tools on macOS, how will it all function.
I can see it working fine if all your workflow is using a very limited set of tools and stock apps, but what happens when you venture out.
iPhones/iPads work so well because they operate in a very constrained environment controlled by Apple. On a desktop OS however, things are different, people don't want a chromeOS/Windows 10S experience where they are not much different to iOS/Android, at least most of us.
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Well, I think the quantity that everyone is ignoring when these conversations come up is AMD. With the Ryzen and Threadripper chips they have forced intel to react by pushing up core count on their chips. They have just pushed the bar higher with TR2 chips with 32 cores. These chip packages are of course too chunky for mobile ... but here's hoping AMD plan to push as aggressively into the mobile market in the next few eyars as they have done in the destkop market in the last few
An interesting tidbit: German news site MacTechNews.de reports that Apple is already testing macOS 10.15 and 10.4.4 internally since about a week, which is unusually early for Apple, even skipping the testing-oriented distribution of the intermediate updates (10.4.1, etc.). They speculate that this might be done either for early testing of the new Mac Pro which might coincide with either of those two releases, or for testing it with new Macs that have non-Intel CPUs, and further goes on to speculate if we might already see the first concrete hints towards ARM-Macs next year because of that.
To quote the most interesting part of the article (in regards to future Macs):
Roughly translated:
Source. There's more but I didn't want to quote too much. An interesting read in regards to what we might see in terms of MacBooks (and Macs in general) in the next 1-2 years.
To quote the most interesting part of the article (in regards to future Macs):
"Für die gleichzeitige Praxiserprobung eines Sommer- und eines Herbst-Updates für das Jahr 2019 könnte nicht nur nur ein einzelnes Produkt, sondern ein kompletter Architekturwechsel stehen. Mehrere Berichte sprachen bereits davon, Apple wolle sich von Intel verabschieden und stattdessen auf eigene Prozessoren setzen. Hinweise darauf gibt es inzwischen zuhauf. Neben der langen Entwicklungszeit für den Mac Pro (2-3 Jahre!) weisen auch Software-Entscheidungen den Weg. Apple verabschiedet sich plötzlich von OpenGL und OpenCL, was zunächst unnötig erscheint. Bedenkt man aber, dass die Grafikeinheit der A-Chips, basierend auf der PowerVR-Architektur, jene Frameworks nicht vollständig unterstützen kann und ein ARM-Mac daher nur unter starken Kompromissen OpenGL-Support bieten würde, dann ergibt der Schritt Sinn. [...]
Gleiches gilt für das schnelle Ende von 32 Bit auf dem Mac. 11 Jahre nach vollständiger 64-Bit-Unterstützung fällt Apple nun so plötzlich ein, dass 32 Bit verbannt werden muss? Der Grund dafür ist wohl eher ein anderer, nämlich der fehlende 32-Bit-Modus in Apples aktueller ARM-Architektur. Der Befehlssatz von 32-Bit x86-Prozessoren ist patentrechtlich durch Intel geschützt. Dies zu emulieren wäre daher fast unmöglich – im Gegensatz zu 64 Bit. Dort greift nämlich AMDs offene 64-Bit-Implementierung, weswegen Hardware-Translation oder Software-Emulation ohne immense rechtliche Hürden umzusetzen sind."
Gleiches gilt für das schnelle Ende von 32 Bit auf dem Mac. 11 Jahre nach vollständiger 64-Bit-Unterstützung fällt Apple nun so plötzlich ein, dass 32 Bit verbannt werden muss? Der Grund dafür ist wohl eher ein anderer, nämlich der fehlende 32-Bit-Modus in Apples aktueller ARM-Architektur. Der Befehlssatz von 32-Bit x86-Prozessoren ist patentrechtlich durch Intel geschützt. Dies zu emulieren wäre daher fast unmöglich – im Gegensatz zu 64 Bit. Dort greift nämlich AMDs offene 64-Bit-Implementierung, weswegen Hardware-Translation oder Software-Emulation ohne immense rechtliche Hürden umzusetzen sind."
Roughly translated:
"The simultaneous practice-testing of a summer- and a fall-update for 2019 might not be caused by a single product, but by an entire architecture change. There were multiple reports already talking about Apple wanting to move away from Intel and instead use their own processor chips. There are already hints for that. Besides a long development time for the new Mac Pro (2-3 years!), there are software decisions pointing towards that. Apple suddenly says goodbye to OpenGL and OpenCL, which seems unnecessary at first. But if we consider that the unit of the A-chips, based on the PowerVR-architecture, isn't able to entirely support those frameworks and that an ARM-Mac could therefore only support OpenGL with strong compromises, this step would make sense. [...]
The same goes for the quick end of 32-bit on the Mac. 11 years after a complete 64-bit-support, Apple now suddenly realized that 32-bit has to be banned? The reason is likely another one, namely the missing 32-bit-mode of Apple's new ARM-architecture. The command set of 32-Bit x86-procewssors is protected by patents from Intel. Emulating these would be near impossible – not so with 64-bit. There, we have AMD's open 64-bit-implementation, because of which the hardware-translation or software-emulation should be possible without immense legal trouble."
The same goes for the quick end of 32-bit on the Mac. 11 years after a complete 64-bit-support, Apple now suddenly realized that 32-bit has to be banned? The reason is likely another one, namely the missing 32-bit-mode of Apple's new ARM-architecture. The command set of 32-Bit x86-procewssors is protected by patents from Intel. Emulating these would be near impossible – not so with 64-bit. There, we have AMD's open 64-bit-implementation, because of which the hardware-translation or software-emulation should be possible without immense legal trouble."
Source. There's more but I didn't want to quote too much. An interesting read in regards to what we might see in terms of MacBooks (and Macs in general) in the next 1-2 years.
That is interesting, it seems little by little the clues are falling into place - I’d now give it better than evens chance 2020 really will see Apple switch to ARM processors (I had it at about 50:50 previously; while I think it’s inevitable in the mid term I wasn’t sure if 2020 was too soon and they’d want to have developers playing with iOS apps on macs a bit more before they committed)
There are a lot of developers that rely on x86 virtualisation, and I don't believe this can be emulated without a big performance hit. I believe Apple will move to a more hybrid solution (they already are somewhat hybrid with the T2 chip) before they ditch x86 completely.
A timely article:
https://www.gsmarena.com/arm_unveil...os_and_hercules_cores_incoming-news-32803.php
If ARM can do this given 5W, imagine what Apple who are arguably even better at chip design could do given 15W? If ARM want to get into laptop form factor computing, It wouldn't surprise me if they were working with Apple on this vis. emulation solutions.
here's hoping AMD plan to push as aggressively into the mobile market in the next few eyars as they have done in the destkop market in the last few
They don't. Ravenridge has not been very successful for them, laptops are not a huge market, and even if they did design an APU for Apple there's no telling if it would be good enough for Apple to actually buy it. AMD's play is for servers, then desktops. A Zen 2 + Navi APU is not likely to beat Intel's 10nm solution to market unless there is another delay.
ARM's amazing power-performance ratios lose a lot of luster at higher wattages, so don't expect that performance to scale linearly into a 15W part. For the level of power in a Macbook Pro, ARM is just right out. If we do see an ARM notebook in 2020, it'll be the 12" Macbook.
Why I think that Arm cpu's seem to be underpowered and rather anemic, in comparison with intel ones?
Well, I expect mbp to be always a professional laptop with serious horsepower, and not just an upgraded version of ipads.
Well, I expect mbp to be always a professional laptop with serious horsepower, and not just an upgraded version of ipads.
Apple's AX processor is a beast and I think on a single core comparison, it holds its own on Intel. I'm not sure how well it scales up with multiple cores and the level of multitasking that we require current Intel CPUS to do
I think it will be interesting for Apple to make an AX processor for the Mac line. But I wouldn't hold my breath for a complete change. That would probably take years. Both Intel and AMD have a huge leg up on ARM based CPU's for the desktop. As much as we deride Intel for their mishaps with shipping their latest processors, they have some of the most sophisticated fabs and have been heavily optimized for desktop and server workstations. Their mobile chips are nothing to sneeze at either.
Apple AX chip are amazing. For a device that doesn't need cooling. They have great single core and multicore scores. But lack multi-threading. Maybe that's something Apple can add for the desktop replacements, however, we're talking about a relatively new chip maker. It's taken AMD a long time to compete against Intel. And when they did have an advantage they couldn't hold on to it. Competition is good. I mean look at what AMD is doing? For years Intel sat on their laurels and now they are paying for it.
I think there will be a slow churn if Apple forces AX chips on all Mac's. I don't see how that will benefit power users who rely on Intel's or AMD's raw power. I can see a low cost/low end model MacBook as a start. But even with the help of running iOS apps on the Mac I don't see it being a big success. They need Adobe, Micrososft and the countless other developers to port their apps again to a new chip architecture. This would create the ultimate "Walled Garden" and I'm not sure I would enjoy using Macs as much. I really like the freedom to do my professional stuff on the Mac and then maybe bootcamp to Windows and play a few games or run apps that are better optimized on W10.
Apple AX chip are amazing. For a device that doesn't need cooling. They have great single core and multicore scores. But lack multi-threading. Maybe that's something Apple can add for the desktop replacements, however, we're talking about a relatively new chip maker. It's taken AMD a long time to compete against Intel. And when they did have an advantage they couldn't hold on to it. Competition is good. I mean look at what AMD is doing? For years Intel sat on their laurels and now they are paying for it.
I think there will be a slow churn if Apple forces AX chips on all Mac's. I don't see how that will benefit power users who rely on Intel's or AMD's raw power. I can see a low cost/low end model MacBook as a start. But even with the help of running iOS apps on the Mac I don't see it being a big success. They need Adobe, Micrososft and the countless other developers to port their apps again to a new chip architecture. This would create the ultimate "Walled Garden" and I'm not sure I would enjoy using Macs as much. I really like the freedom to do my professional stuff on the Mac and then maybe bootcamp to Windows and play a few games or run apps that are better optimized on W10.
So since there is very little chances of getting Cannon lake(10nm) chip before like the end of 2019, what CPU updates do we expect next year for the 13 "MBPs and the MBs?
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Intel will have some revised 14nm CPU’s for the interim.
They could always skip it, they have done so before (and if the iGPU’s don’t live up to their standards, highly likely).
In short, the mobile variant of the 9th generation of Intel chips which are still 14nm. Their exact specifications are currently unknown (and will most likely remain that way for a while, the usual rollout is sometime in spring with leaks starting 1-3 months earlier), but we can probably take some hints of their desktop variants which are expected to roll out in October or so and of which a lot of specifications are already known.
Overall though, I wouldn't get too excited. Probably some slightly higher base clocks and the like. Interestingly, the desktop variants of the 9th generation i9 go up to 8 cores, but I have no idea if that means there'll be a mobile variant with 8 cores aswell (and even if there is, it's probably not that suitable for the MBP anyway since the current 6-core i9 already performing much lower than its' theoretical potential due to all the heat and power draw). Maybe someone more knowledgeable with the topic can say if there are any other features of the 9th generation that might carry over to the mobile line and are more interesting, because overall I don't see much that we should get excited about (but I'm not an expert on the topic either).
So I'd advise lowering your expectations – the next big jump will most likely be either Cannonlake or the switch to an ARM-based A-series derivative, whichever comes first.
The part where consumers expect more to it than it is. You can edit 8k on the go with a MacBook Pro. There may be better tools out there, but the possibility that a college student can get a MacBook Pro and edit video in better than broadcast quality on a portable device is simply great.
I guess the dream of buying the final computer that never becomes old is fascinating for a few of us, but rather unrealistic. All the stories about people on old hardware telling stories about how good their computers are five years in, how have those guys changed their workflow? Are they still doing stuff the old way? Are they still using five year techniques, while the people with new hardware and software are engaging in new ways to solve problems?
If you are using your computer for anything worth while you should also be able to upgrade every other year. A desktop may last you five years, but a laptop gets stale some time after the third year. The iPhone is worth an upgrade biannually. The smaller the device, the faster it is going to become irrelevant. I like it that way. It paves the way for innovation.
I would expect whiskey lake and a GPU upgrade of some sort for 2019, my hope is that SSD prices will continue their gradual decline to the point Apple might consider equipping the £2,349 model with 512GB which would make it hugely less objectionable
I’ve always updated on a 2-3 year cycle with laptops and I don’t have a particularly demanding workflow, I just like getting a fresh machine often with several new incidental benefits (certainly in the past) like HDD -> SSD, standard res screen -> retina, nicer build, more pleasing design, lighter & more compact to carry. With iPhones I genuinely don’t care anymore, the ‘innovation’ they’ve brought with the X just doesn’t interest me or puts me off actively. I’m not a big fan of oled having owned similar panels in the past, I’m dubious about Face ID and while the gesture based controls look cool I’m not desperate to get my hands on the phone for that.
Ps in this instance you mean biennially (every two years) not biannually (twice a year) - easily confused!
Thanks for improving my English. Well, I think the iPhone X is the best phone in use, and FaceID is great, except for when I use sunglasses. Gestures are also great. I also like the Touch Bar a little bit, even though I still use trackpad gestures and keyboard shortcuts for most of my operations due to me being a legacy user.
Expecting a jump from HDD to SSD every iteration is unrealistic. Higher resolutions may look good on paper, but the wider gamut and brightness looks better on the actual screen. The build is the nicest on the market, and it is light for a 15" laptop. Cutting the bezels won't do wonders, and I rarely think of the black edge around the screen as a limitation.
In the end I am not trying to buy a computer that will give me the most specifications per dollar, but a laptop that gives me a good working environment, and at the moment, the current MacBook Pro is the best out there.
You know my English teacher picked me up on the same mistake on a piece of homework a few years back and it’s one of those little things that’s stuck with me! Probably because I was a smug little overachiever in top set and used to just getting praise, but that’s a tangential story.
Sure, I’m realistic in that I’m not going to get a big thing like an SSD or retina every 2-3 years, but generally there is a compelling thing to move on to - with the current generation I think it’s actually the chassis size reduction which makes the 2016- 15” noticeably more portable than the 2012-15 ones. In this case I can’t get past the £2,700 price tag for the model I want though (primarily the 512GB SSD, but I also prefer a stock model than a BTO). In the end I expect this price increase will probably save me money by changing my mind on biennial updates, even if the price were to go back to £1,599 I’d probably keep the computers for 3-4 years now provided they work as its kind of been thrown into focus how much money I’ve been wasting indulging my love for the new and shiny. The exception would be if the pace of innovation picked up again e.g. batteries jumping to 14h plus, chips getting annual 80%+ speed increases (which kinda forces old machines into obsolescence) or proper wireless charging
With Intels problem to get beyond 14nm in manufacturing it is highly unlikely that we will see bigger performance jumps than we saw this summer, with the hex core on the MBP 15" and quad core on the smaller MBP 13", in a while due to Intel seems to be pushing GHz instead of architecture with their new desktop lineup. Last time Mac laptops got more cores was back in 2011, so I guess this generation will grant you 3-4 years instead of the usual biennal bump.
I think we have come such a long way with laptops that we won't see anything radical coming up. I guess different brands have tried to adapt touch, but no standard has yet set out a wildfire of copycats like the iPhone X has done. Essential phone may have introduced the notch, but Apple made it a standard, and I can't really see how they have made the same impact with the Touch Bar. It will be fun to see how they solve Mac Pro and Mac mini, as they are machines I would consider buying, but I love just docking my MacBook Pro 2018 to an external screen and I no longer have any fear of missing out. Maybe FaceID would be better, but then again, it won't help me in clamshell mode, just like TouchID.
I think the price is steep, but the market and general need for laptops is decreasing, so I may assume they need to charge more per unit to make it worth their while. Personally I could just use my iPhone X as my daily driver, and I may consider doing that whenever the X becomes a bit bigger. As much as I like to think that I just need the bare necessities, I think the laptop or even the desktop will ever cease to exist due to the nature of the experience of running multiple programs simultaneous and using multiple screens are such a delight that I could never consider it an alternative. A single screen setup of an iPad Pro will never be a viable option for users in need of screen real estate, but for specific tasks I could live with an iPhone or a iPad Pro. In the end it is all about how much the interactions you do on your computer favour you spending 2500+ dollars on a Mac.
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How things change!
A decade ago, the transition to intel was like a blessing.
This was the main reason for myself, to come to mac world!
Because I wanted to be sure, that if something goes wrong with my transition to mac from pc, I would be able at least to use windows on mac, thanks to intel cpu! This could not be done while on powerpc cpus!
And now?
On a crossroad again.
A decade ago, the transition to intel was like a blessing.
This was the main reason for myself, to come to mac world!
Because I wanted to be sure, that if something goes wrong with my transition to mac from pc, I would be able at least to use windows on mac, thanks to intel cpu! This could not be done while on powerpc cpus!
And now?
On a crossroad again.
How can you wait. Every year there will be something new. But 6 cores will be same for.a while.