Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]

[Plutonius]

Actually, I just found a case where a customer was allowed to return a laptop even after he setup the OS. Wow.. We might be very lenient on the customer in Denmark.

I understand why the regulation is very hard on businesses if they don't want to sell the returned products, but this isn't a question of fair. It's a question of how the law is interpreted and there's no way Apple can get out of the 14 days return period in the EU unless the law is changed. We might have case of slightly different interpretations in the countries in the union and so the extend of the return rights might vary slightly, but the bigger picture is a legally secured right to return online purchases for customers - including Apple customers.

If someone returns an opened computer within the 14 day period, is the company able to sell it to someone else as a new product ?

How about in Denmark where the OS had been setup ?
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You are allowed to open the product and examine it just like if you were in a store.

In the US, you can generally examine the display units but most (if not all) stores wouldn't allow you to open the products that are being sold until after you purchase them. Most stores would also not allow you to unbox a product at the store just after you bought it.

One exception would be if you bought a vehicle. You are expected to test drive the actual vehicle that you are going to buy.

 

[Dane95]

If someone returns an opened computer within the 14 day period, is the company able to sell it to someone else as a new product ?

How about in Denmark where the OS had been setup ?

If the company wasn't able to sell it again, the customer wouldn't be able to return it. It goes together. The return obviously depends on if the product's value is upheld. Any loss in value would be covered from the customer.

Honestly, I find that particular case a bit weird. It wasn't settled in court but at a tribunal, and I'm not so sure the customer would win the case in court, given that the selling company would have to reset the laptop before they could sell it again (they argued it would cost them money to have someone reset returned laptops, which I think is a valid point).

In the US, you can generally examine the display units but most (if not all) stores wouldn't allow you to open the products that are being sold until after you purchase them. Most stores would also not allow you to unbox a product at the store just after you bought it.

No, but you're allowed to examine an identical product (the display units). And if the product you received differed from the product, you examined, you would probably be able to return it to the store, since you're examination would then be worthless.

 

[Falhófnir]

Radeon is a house burner for sure. AMD's power/performance ratio is worse than both Intel's and nVidia's. Navi and 7nm will help, but I would still expect AMD to trail its rivals in this area. Yet I fully expect Apple to adopt AMD parts again next year, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Why?

Because AMD makes Apple's graphics parts to spec. Apple wants HBM 2? Apple gets HBM 2. Apple wants a graphics part at a thermal envelope used nowhere else in the industry? Ok, AMD will do some nip and tuck and make it happen. Those new Vega parts you see in the Macbook were made for the Macbook (and were probably supposed to be there 6 months ago--this is typical AMD). There's nothing stopping them from using those parts elsewhere, but they were made to spec for the MBP, and if Apple didn't have a guaranteed purchase order for them they would absolutely not be worth the time or resources for AMD to create.

Intel would never do this. And frankly, were their GPUs not so tightly integrated with their chips, I don't think they'd impress much--we'll see what happens when intel's discrete GPUs hit shelves. As it stands, Iris Plus is not remotely comparable to what the Vega part is capable of.

nVidia won't do this for anything resembling a reasonable price. There's a reason console makers have AMD design their parts! Nintendo uses nVidia, but it's basically a stock Tegra--they didn't even move it to FinFET. It's possible nVidia will release a Turing part that happens to roughly fit Apple's needs, but it's frankly unlikely. Yes, absolutely, nVidia is capable of producing a better GPU for Apple than AMD, but if they won't do it it doesn't matter.

Not really sure this is applicable; my point was merely that they could make a 15" pro lacking a dGPU altogether if they used the same 28W quad core U series chips as they do in the 13" Touchbar models. Not everyone needs a dGPU and it adds significantly to the cost of the machine - the last iGPU model started at £1,899. It's not about Iris Plus being as good as an AMD GPU, it's about it being sufficient to run the system smoothly with a little bit of extra power over HD 620 if you do need it from time to time.

 

[Peter_M]

About earlier comments on heat output from Vega GPUs in Macs: I've already written this several times, but there must be something wrong with the older Adrenalin drivers. After I got to around 18.8 or so in Windows 10/Bootcamp on my iMac Pro, the heat output fell drastically - about half or more afaik. Apple are still using a year old Adrenalin driver, and their GPU support for both macOS and Bootcamp is really poor. If you use Bootcamp, go to bootcampdrivers.com and try out the latest GPU drivers. The difference is huge, at least with Vega Pro 64.

 

[awesomedeluxe]

Not really sure this is applicable; my point was merely that they could make a 15" pro lacking a dGPU altogether if they used the same 28W quad core U series chips as they do in the 13" Touchbar models. Not everyone needs a dGPU and it adds significantly to the cost of the machine - the last iGPU model started at £1,899. It's not about Iris Plus being as good as an AMD GPU, it's about it being sufficient to run the system smoothly with a little bit of extra power over HD 620 if you do need it from time to time.

Oh.

The reason the machine you want doesn't exist is because Intel doesn't sell a hexacore package with Iris Plus on the die. The part you mentioned leaves an uncomfortable amount of room on the table for a 15" "pro" machine -- I don't think Apple would like that.

It'd be nice to see Apple bring back 15" Macbooks, but larger laptops have become more of a niche space.

 

[Falhófnir]

Oh.

The reason the machine you want doesn't exist is because Intel doesn't sell a hexacore package with Iris Plus on the die. The part you mentioned leaves an uncomfortable amount of room on the table for a 15" "pro" machine -- I don't think Apple would like that.

It'd be nice to see Apple bring back 15" Macbooks, but larger laptops have become more of a niche space.

I don't think an i7-8559U would be too underpowered, it would effectively be like selling a 13" pro in a 15" chassis size. Particularly if they made the 'nTB' distinction which marked it out as a lower end configuration and people would see it lacked a dGPU I don't think it would lead to any confusion. From benchmarks the U series quad cores retain most of the performance of the previous H series quads, cooled in a 15" chassis I don't expect throttling would be an issue at all. I doubt many people fail to do their research before spending this much money on a computer, and if they do they have no recourse if Apple have offered what they have advertised.

So I would say the reason it doesn't exist is because Apple knows it would only cannibalise 13" TB and lower end 15" sales. Maybe the former would be acceptable to them if they upcharged £100-£150 for the larger screen as they did with the MacBook Airs but I expect pressing anyone who wants a 15" machine into getting one for £2,349 is too lucrative for them to give up. Ultimately they're probably going to end up squeezing the 15" out of the market as things are going, just like they did with the 17". I wouldn't be surprised to see the 15" disappear due to 'lack of sales' once they can get a dGPU in the 13" models and it gets pinched between that and a more cost effective desktop.

 

[awesomedeluxe]

I don't think an i7-8559U would be too underpowered, it would effectively be like selling a 13" pro in a 15" chassis size. Particularly if they made the 'nTB' distinction which marked it out as a lower end configuration and people would see it lacked a dGPU I don't think it would lead to any confusion. From benchmarks the U series quad cores retain most of the performance of the previous H series quads, cooled in a 15" chassis I don't expect throttling would be an issue at all. I doubt many people fail to do their research before spending this much money on a computer, and if they do they have no recourse if Apple have offered what they have advertised.

So I would say the reason it doesn't exist is because Apple knows it would only cannibalise 13" TB and lower end 15" sales. Maybe the former would be acceptable to them if they upcharged £100-£150 for the larger screen as they did with the MacBook Airs but I expect pressing anyone who wants a 15" machine into getting one for £2,349 is too lucrative for them to give up. Ultimately they're probably going to end up squeezing the 15" out of the market as things are going, just like they did with the 17". I wouldn't be surprised to see the 15" disappear due to 'lack of sales' once they can get a dGPU in the 13" models and it gets pinched between that and a more cost effective desktop.

The MBP pairs a processor with a 45W TDP with a 65W GPU. Your machine pairs a 28W TDP APU with nothing. The disparity in power consumption between the machine you want and the machine Apple actually made is enormous, and that's the reason I think they didn't go the route you wanted.

I'm always happy to talk about thermal capacities. Hmu, I'm great at parties

 

[Falhófnir]

The MBP pairs a processor with a 45W TDP with a 65W GPU. Your machine pairs a 28W TDP APU with nothing. The disparity in power consumption between the machine you want and the machine Apple actually made is enormous, and that's the reason I think they didn't go the route you wanted.

I'm always happy to talk about thermal capacities. Hmu, I'm great at parties

I don’t see that having too much cooling capacity is an issue - likely it would use a similar cooling set up to the 13” touchbar pro anyway (it would literally be that machine fit into a larger body). The 13” non touchbar model only has a single fan as it’s only cooling a 15W CPU, so it’s not an unprecedented situation. Again I would say the only reason this sort of model (no longer) exists is because it’s more profitable not to offer it so people either buy the 13” pro or the more expensive 15” and Apple don’t have to put any money into producing it. Currently Apple seem to equate ‘pro’ with video editor or graphic designer, hence the touchbar and keyboard that’s really geared towards short burst typing. It’s a shame, but they’re ultimately just following their vision for their products. I guess those of us who fall between the cracks that open up in the product line will simply have to look elsewhere eventually.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Inside the European Union, you always have the right to a return inside the first 14 days for purchases made online. Doesn't matter if you're selling computers or tooth paste and the product doesn't have to be faulty. This is to counter for the fact that you can't examine the product you're buying, like if you're in a store.

There are exceptions in relation to products like software licenses, but not computers.

In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm​

BTW Amazon Germany gives 1 month return period.
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I don't think an i7-8559U would be too underpowered, it would effectively be like selling a 13" pro in a 15" chassis size. Particularly if they made the 'nTB' distinction which marked it out as a lower end configuration and people would see it lacked a dGPU I don't think it would lead to any confusion. From benchmarks the U series quad cores retain most of the performance of the previous H series quads, cooled in a 15" chassis I don't expect throttling would be an issue at all. I doubt many people fail to do their research before spending this much money on a computer, and if they do they have no recourse if Apple have offered what they have advertised.

So I would say the reason it doesn't exist is because Apple knows it would only cannibalise 13" TB and lower end 15" sales. Maybe the former would be acceptable to them if they upcharged £100-£150 for the larger screen as they did with the MacBook Airs but I expect pressing anyone who wants a 15" machine into getting one for £2,349 is too lucrative for them to give up. Ultimately they're probably going to end up squeezing the 15" out of the market as things are going, just like they did with the 17". I wouldn't be surprised to see the 15" disappear due to 'lack of sales' once they can get a dGPU in the 13" models and it gets pinched between that and a more cost effective desktop.

I would like a 15” MacBook for writing. I most likely will not pay for a MBP

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

I don’t see that having too much cooling capacity is an issue - likely it would use a similar cooling set up to the 13” touchbar pro anyway (it would literally be that machine fit into a larger body). The 13” non touchbar model only has a single fan as it’s only cooling a 15W CPU, so it’s not an unprecedented situation. Again I would say the only reason this sort of model (no longer) exists is because it’s more profitable not to offer it so people either buy the 13” pro or the more expensive 15” and Apple don’t have to put any money into producing it. Currently Apple seem to equate ‘pro’ with video editor or graphic designer, hence the touchbar and keyboard that’s really geared towards short burst typing. It’s a shame, but they’re ultimately just following their vision for their products. I guess those of us who fall between the cracks that open up in the product line will simply have to look elsewhere eventually.

Your logic suggests that there is no chance that they will release a niche 17". Do you think so too?

 

[jsnuff1]

Your logic suggests that there is no chance that they will release a niche 17". Do you think so too?

All they need to do is make a nice edge to edge display in the current MBP 15 body and that will be a 17inch display...problem solved.

 

[PeterJP]

All they need to do is make a nice edge to edge display in the current MBP 15 body and that will be a 17inch display...problem solved.

Or just make it 16:9 or 16:10! I have a 14" Dell from work but the screen isn't even as high (Y dimension) as the one from a 13.3" MBP. It's how all the phone manufacturer's can claim to sell huge phones these days.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

I'm sending my MacBook Pro 2017 for repairs.. again for a 2nd time.

Apple mentioned to me that if it happens again I could switch out for a 2018 model.. Gonna try convince them for the 15" inch lol..

 

[Falhófnir]

Your logic suggests that there is no chance that they will release a niche 17". Do you think so too?

I don’t think Apple can be bothered to do niche notebooks any more - you want power get a desktop as far as they’re concerned.

 

[c0ppo]

I don’t think Apple can be bothered to do niche notebooks any more - you want power get a desktop as far as they’re concerned.

True. But the problem is, there is no powerful apple desktop. Sure, there is iMP, but how powerful that one is, is debatable

 

[Ploki]

True. But the problem is, there is no powerful apple desktop. Sure, there is iMP, but how powerful that one is, is debatable

Mac Mini i7 outperforms the i9.

iMac Pro outperforms both. What’s here to debate?

Even the 2012 12-core cheesegrater outperforms the i9 for sustained loads, and the 12-core trashcan too, and they’re old...

 

[c0ppo]

Mac Mini i7 outperforms the i9.

Mac mini has integrated GPU, and if you add eGPU dock + GPU of choice, mac mini becomes way overpriced, even though it's already way overpriced. And none eGPU will perform like the GPU that is actually in the computer.

iMac Pro outperforms both. What’s here to debate?

2000-3000$ PC outperform iMP.
So if it is power you are after, then iMP isn't it. Especially at that price tag.

 

[Ploki]

Mac mini has integrated GPU, and if you add eGPU dock + GPU of choice, mac mini becomes way overpriced, even though it's already way overpriced. And none eGPU will perform like the GPU that is actually in the computer.



2000-3000$ PC outperform iMP.
So if it is power you are after, then iMP isn't it. Especially at that price tag.

He said there’s no powerful desktop Mac.
I said there was.
And yes, eGPU has a 15% performance tax but external Vega 56 will still outperform an internal vega20.

And Mac Mini is the least overpriced of all mac offerings.

Every mac is pricier than its PC counterpart that’s nothing new...

Apple stopped doing internal PCIe expansion 5 years ago, it’s not coming back...

 

[c0ppo]

And Mac Mini is the least overpriced of all mac offerings.

But still (way) overpriced!

Every mac is pricier than its PC counterpart that’s nothing new...

Indeed. But the thing is, this apple tax got to the point of being way overpriced, and with way worse quality then ever. T2 chip and bridge os issues, failing keyboards, overblown speakers, throttling, etc. We pay we more then we used to, but instead of getting more in return, we get issues we never had before.

Apple stopped doing internal PCIe expansion 5 years ago, it’s not coming back...

Well, not arguing that one. People who expect that the new MP will be like the old one are mistaken. If that were the case, new MP would already be on the shelves. Any extendibility from now on will be via thunderbolt port. So the pros loose. Again

 

[Ploki]

But still (way) overpriced!



Indeed. But the thing is, this apple tax got to the point of being way overpriced, and with way worse quality then ever. T2 chip and bridge os issues, failing keyboards, overblown speakers, throttling, etc. We pay we more then we used to, but instead of getting more in return, we get issues we never had before.



Well, not arguing that one. People who expect that the new MP will be like the old one are mistaken. If that were the case, new MP would already be on the shelves. Any extendibility from now on will be via thunderbolt port. So the pros loose. Again

Yeah, agreed with most of what you said-most of the "over" price comes from the scroogey SSD prices tho.

I returned my i9 and now ordered a Mini instead, because i opted from small SSD. 2TB SSD on the 15" costs as much as another apple computer. insane.

As far as thunderbolt goes, i kinda embraced it. Frankly, the performance hit on the eGPU isn't nearly as much as I'd suspect it would be, and for everything else its good enough.

 

[c0ppo]

As far as thunderbolt goes, i kinda embraced it. Frankly, the performance hit on the eGPU isn't nearly as much as I'd suspect it would be, and for everything else its good enough.

I have nothing against tb3, quite the opposite. I love it.
But eGPU is noisy, and I mean really noisy. I know, because I've tried it. And the problem is that longer TB3 cable won't help, it will only degrade performance. Longer the cable, worse the performance. And it's not a small dip in performance category.

But just having the option to use eGPU is great

 

[Ploki]

I have nothing against tb3, quite the opposite. I love it.
But eGPU is noisy, and I mean really noisy. I know, because I've tried it. And the problem is that longer TB3 cable won't help, it will only degrade performance. Longer the cable, worse the performance. And it's not a small dip in performance category.

But just having the option to use eGPU is great

which enclosure did you try?
I didn't know performance drops with cable length, pretty disheartening. What about optical TB cables?

 

[c0ppo]

which enclosure did you try?

Razer Core. And that one is probably the best one out there. But bare in mind, any enclosure will produce a lot of noise. You can find a lot more details online, if you plan on purchasing one, research a lot.

I didn't know performance drops with cable length, pretty disheartening. What about optical TB cables?

I have no clue about optical cables, but yes, longer the tb3 cable, worse it gets. And by a lot. Search on amazon, you will see that a lot of sellers are charging more for a 1m cable, then for a 2m cable. And it's the same cable, just that one is longer. I would always assume that longer cables would cost more, but nope...

 

[Ploki]

Razer Core. And that one is probably the best one out there. But bare in mind, any enclosure will produce a lot of noise. You can find a lot more details online, if you plan on purchasing one, research a lot.



I have no clue about optical cables, but yes, longer the tb3 cable, worse it gets. And by a lot. Search on amazon, you will see that a lot of sellers are charging more for a 1m cable, then for a 2m cable. And it's the same cable, just that one is longer. I would always assume that longer cables would cost more, but nope...

I thought that is mitigated by using active cables?
the test here seems to indicate that 2meters is not *that* worse compared to 0.5
https://9to5mac.com/2018/08/23/back-to-the-mac-011-are-longer-thunderbolt-3-cables-slower-video/
what I'm more surprised is that 20gbps passive connection wasn't 50% worse... it was only a little worse. which would mean TB3 bandwidth isn't the *real* bottle neck for eGPU performance hit.

 

[c0ppo]

@Ploki

Mine cable was active, not passive. And it's that cable 9to5mac is talking about.
I just read their article, and maybe something was wrong with my cable? I can't think of any other reason for my bad experience. eGPU ran just fine with included cable, but I had significant issues while using caldigit cable.

In the attachment there is a showing of my amazon order of that cable