Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]

[Plutonius]

It's not greed, it's capitalism. Apple is a for profit organization.

As of last quarter, Apple's margins are about the same.

I believe that the cost increase in the computers is to cover service and returns. Apple is incurring increased cost for bad QC, bad testing, and a rush to get to market. Apple is then trying to pass that cost onto customers.

 

[Howard2k]

As of last quarter, Apple's margins are about the same.

I believe that the cost increase in the computers is to cover service and returns. Apple is incurring increased cost for bad QC, bad testing, and a rush to get to market. Apple is then trying to pass that cost onto customers.

That's not really how pricing usually works. Apple is unlikely to be setting the price in order to meet a specific margin target. More likely they're setting the price based on what they believe the market will support.

 

[Plutonius]

That's not really how pricing usually works. Apple is unlikely to be setting the price in order to meet a specific margin target. More likely they're setting the price based on what they believe the market will support.

I agree.

My point was that if the margins are remaining the same and that the is price going up, the cost to make / sell the product have gone up and a portion are being passed to the consumer.

I don't believe that Apple is gouging the market any more than it had in the past.

With all the servicing people need on their computers (keyboards, etc) and with the number of people appearing to be returning their computers within the 14 day window, it looks like the cost have skyrocketed.

I would not be surprised if Apple eliminated the 14 day return window.

 

[Falhófnir]

I would not be surprised if Apple eliminated the 14 day return window.

Better would be to stop making compromised machines that people don't want to risk keeping, and start making solid machines that people don't want to return again.

 

[Plutonius]

Better would be to stop making compromised machines that people don't want to risk keeping, and start making solid machines that people don't want to return again.

I agree 100% but it doesn't look like they can .

I would start by getting rid of Jony Ives.

 

[Falhófnir]

I agree 100% but it doesn't look like they can .

I would start by getting rid of Jony Ives.

I have sympathy with what they've tried to do with this design cycle - at the end of the day the TB Pros are magnificently svelte... it's just that they've made a few too many compromises to get there in this instance. I know we can only really speculate on the KB design - were they trying to shave a few extra fractions of a mm off the case? Were they trying to condition us for a haptic KB in the future? Were they genuinely thinking this was a better typing experience? But I think in this case, swallowing their pride and going back to something which generates universal praise, not controversy, would be the correct decision.

Honestly I wonder how much influence Ive has on the depth of the computer - I'd imagine it's as much to do with Phil Schiller (Marketing) and the engineering team who have to actually make a computer that is robust enough. Sounds like the whole executive team is probably complicit in these decisions...

 

[doitdada]

Silicon Valley as a whole is getting old, and there isn't many new ideas and brains to lead. Most of the new ideas on the sketch-board are simply high penetration and require lots of capital to realise. I guess stuff like phones and computers are no longer hot as a technology, but becoming a commodity like potatoes. Then again, who cares about the type of potatoes out there as long as they are edible.

Stuff like Snap doesn't count, as they are just another messaging app, and will be replaced like ICQ, IRC, Messenger etc. Phonecams will never beat DSLRs, and the iPad can't beat a Xbox One or PS4. A laptop will never eat from the same table as a desktop. A desktop will never be a server machine.

5G doesn't matter that much for consumers, as they are not reliant on low latency, and again, I think it is the capital heavy industries that will benefit from the lower latency and higher speeds. The road of consumer technology is getting a rest until something I couldn't dream of suddenly appears.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

It's not greed, it's capitalism. Apple is a for profit organization.

As am I. Kind off. Hence I spend wisely and keep my stuff going instead of buying new.

 

[Macintoshrumors]

It's not greed, it's capitalism. Apple is a for profit organization.

Thats not a bad thing. After all, thats the main goal of any busienss since the beginning of time?

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Thats not a bad thing. After all, thats the main goal of any busienss since the beginning of time?

Sure. It works to raise prices again and again as long as people are still buying. Once they stop and go elsewhere then not.

 

[Plutonius]

I have sympathy with what they've tried to do with this design cycle - at the end of the day the TB Pros are magnificently svelte... it's just that they've made a few too many compromises to get there in this instance. I know we can only really speculate on the KB design - were they trying to shave a few extra fractions of a mm off the case? Were they trying to condition us for a haptic KB in the future? Were they genuinely thinking this was a better typing experience? But I think in this case, swallowing their pride and going back to something which generates universal praise, not controversy, would be the correct decision.

Honestly I wonder how much influence Ive has on the depth of the computer - I'd imagine it's as much to do with Phil Schiller (Marketing) and the engineering team who have to actually make a computer that is robust enough. Sounds like the whole executive team is probably complicit in these decisions...

Jony Ives is great at what he does but Apple really doesn't need an industrial designer at this point.

It doesn't matter how good the computer looks if it doesn't operate properly.

 

[afir93]

I would not be surprised if Apple eliminated the 14 day return window.

Really? How would you expect that to work; isn't Apple as much as any other online retailer obligated to a 14 day return window by law? At least in my country, there's the Fernabsatzgesetz which requires exactly this, I'm not sure if there's something like that in every country.

 

[Ma2k5]

Really? How would you expect that to work; isn't Apple as much as any other online retailer obligated to a 14 day return window by law? At least in my country, there's the Fernabsatzgesetz which requires exactly this, I'm not sure if there's something like that in every country.

It is not law in the UK where the item is opened and the item is as described. Unopened - yes they will have to accept it. E.g. if I go buy something from John Lewis, if I open it, unless it is faulty, I can't just return it - while I can with Apple.

 

[Dane95]

It is not law in the UK where the item is opened and the item is as described. Unopened - yes they will have to accept it. E.g. if I go buy something from John Lewis, if I open it, unless it is faulty, I can't just return it - while I can with Apple.

Inside the European Union, you always have the right to a return inside the first 14 days for purchases made online. Doesn't matter if you're selling computers or tooth paste and the product doesn't have to be faulty. This is to counter for the fact that you can't examine the product you're buying, like if you're in a store.

There are exceptions in relation to products like software licenses, but not computers.

In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm​

 

[afir93]

It is not law in the UK where the item is opened and the item is as described. Unopened - yes they will have to accept it. E.g. if I go buy something from John Lewis, if I open it, unless it is faulty, I can't just return it - while I can with Apple.

Ah ok, thanks for the insight. It's definitely different here in Germany – for almost everything that falls under a "Fernabsatz" (i.e. is sold commercially from "afar", such as ordered online or via phone), the customer is entitled by law to cancel the purchase contract without having to give any reasons for it (the item has to be undamaged obviously, but apart from that, almost everything is fair game – the seller usually has to accept it back, even if it was opened and intensely used during these 14 days).

There are some exceptions such as certain intellectual goods or one-time use items (i.e. if you buy a concert ticket online and go to the concert the next day, then you generally can't just give it back afterwards for obvious reasons), but things such as Apple devices, commercial retailers have to offer a 14 day return period for when they're sold online or via phone. The law here doesn't apply to retail stores, though then again many retail stores in my country, particularly of big store chains, still offer 14 day return policies, and it's hard to imagine that Apple would drop the 14 day return period for retail-purchases while keeping it for online-made ones.

 

[smirking]

the 2016-2019ish form factor might end up going down in history as the worst due to something as stupid and benign as a keyboard.

The keyboard is both a serious issue and totally overblown. A lot of people prefer the butterfly keyboards and a lot of people aren't having issues either. I'm typing on a 2016 MBP that hasn't been babied, is dusted infrequently, and has been witness to more than a few nearby lunches.

If the keyboard is the only thing holding you back, just get it and return it if you can't get used to it. I'm a keyboard enthusiast. I'm always falling in and out of love with different kinds of keyboards. The butterfly keyboard has never been one of my crushes, but I've come to appreciate it and would prefer it over most squishy laptop keyboards except perhaps a classic Thinkpad's.

It has pros and cons. It's flawed, but not in any fatal way (for me). I had serious reservations before buying my 2016 and I hated this keyboard with a passion at first, but I rationalized that I could always just pair an external keyboard with it if I never got used to it... not ideal, but workable.

As for reliability, mine has had momentary hitches that worked itself out. I got jammed keys every couple of months for the first year. I haven't had one since. Mine seemed to need a little breaking in to work right.

 

[Ma2k5]

Inside the European Union, you always have the right to a return inside the first 14 days for purchases made online. Doesn't matter if you're selling computers or tooth paste and the product doesn't have to be faulty. This is to counter for the fact that you can't examine the product you're buying, like if you're in a store.

There are exceptions in relation to products like software licenses, but not computers.

In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm​

I am aware of distance selling regulations - but you can’t return it after opening it unless the product isn’t not as described.

Eg the change of mind only applies if the product is unopened. You can’t open it and change your mind to exercise this right. Of course if there is an issue with the product or it’s not as was described (on inspection) the retailer must allow return.

Some stores are flexible with this such as Apple, but most will refuse a product if you opened it, even online purchases.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

Do you think they will release a 15" base model with just an integrated GPU?
Radeon is consuming too much energy.

 

[Ma2k5]

Do you think they will release a 15" base model with just an integrated GPU?
Radeon is consuming too much energy.

No, I am sure they wanted to but the Intel 45W chips no longer have a good enough iGPU to be classed as "Pro" by Apple's standards. It doesn't look like we have any suitable upcoming chips which will be of GT3/GT4 GPU standard (such as the HD 640, HD 650 or the HD 655).

 

[Dane95]

I am aware of distance selling regulations - but you can’t return it after opening it unless the product isn’t not as described.

Eg the change of mind only applies if the product is unopened. You can’t open it and change your mind to exercise this right. Of course if there is an issue with the product or it’s not as was described (on inspection) the retailer must allow return.

Some stores are flexible with this such as Apple, but most will refuse a product if you opened it, even online purchases.

The EU laws are sometimes not implemented exactly the same way in all the countries inside the union, so I'm not going to tell you that this is wrong in relation to UK - I honestly don't know.

However, for my country, Denmark, this is not the case. You are allowed to open the product and examine it just like if you were in a store. If you can return the product in the same condition as it arrived, you're good. If you take the laptop out of the box, it's still in the same condition.

The line is drawn when you take it to use. So if you set it up in your own name and take it for a test drive in geekbench or whatever, you're across the line. You still have the right to return the product at this point, but you have to pay for the difference between the original value and the value after your use.

 

[Ma2k5]

The EU laws are sometimes not implemented exactly the same way in all the countries inside the union, so I'm not going to tell you that this is wrong in relation to UK - I honestly don't know.

However, for my country, Denmark, this is not the case. You are allowed to open the product and examine it just like if you were in a store. If you can return the product in the same condition as it arrived, you're good. If you take the laptop out of the box, it's still in the same condition.

The line is drawn when you take it to use. So if you set it up in your own name and take it for a test drive in geekbench or whatever, you're across the line. You still have the right to return the product at this point, but you have to pay for the difference between the original value and the value after your use.

In the UK, a product that is opened is seen as used because it can't be resold as new, as it isn't always possible to tell if a product has been used or not. The product being in it's shrink-wrap/seal is usually a good indication that it hasn't been used. So, if the store can't sell the product as new, then it wasn't returned in the same condition.

It makes sense because I don't know about you (or Denmark), but I would rather not have companies allowed to sell open-boxed products as new to me by repackaging it, because the customer said they haven't used it (and no, it isn't ALWAYS possible for companies to tell if the product has been handled - and it will open up companies to just sell things they obviously know is used as new in the hope customers don't notice - and they would be able to get away with it because they can plead ignorance).

All those laptops you return to Apple within 14 days after opening them up - guess where they end up?

 

[Dane95]

In the UK, a product that is opened is seen as used because it can't be resold as new, as it isn't always possible to tell if a product has been used or not. The product being in it's shrink-wrap/seal is usually a good indication that it hasn't been used. So, if the store can't sell the product as new, then it wasn't returned in the same condition.

It makes sense because I don't know about you (or Denmark), but I would rather not have companies allowed to sell open-boxed products as new to me by repackaging it, because the customer said they haven't used it (and no, it isn't ALWAYS possible for companies to tell if the product has been handled - and it will open up companies to just sell things they obviously know is used as new in the hope customers don't notice - and they would be able to get away with it because they can plead ignorance).

All those laptops you return to Apple within 14 days after opening them up - guess where they end up?

Actually, I just found a case where a customer was allowed to return a laptop even after he setup the OS. Wow.. We might be very lenient on the customer in Denmark.

I understand why the regulation is very hard on businesses if they don't want to sell the returned products, but this isn't a question of fair. It's a question of how the law is interpreted and there's no way Apple can get out of the 14 days return period in the EU unless the law is changed. We might have case of slightly different interpretations in the countries in the union and so the extend of the return rights might vary slightly, but the bigger picture is a legally secured right to return online purchases for customers - including Apple customers.

 

[Ma2k5]

Actually, I just found a case where a customer was allowed to return a laptop even after he setup the OS. Wow.. We might be very lenient on the customer in Denmark.

I understand why the regulation is very hard on businesses if they don't want to sell the returned products, but this isn't a question of fair. It's a question of how the law is interpreted and there's no way Apple can get out of the 14 days return period in the EU unless the law is changed. We might have case of slightly different interpretations in the countries in the union and so the extend of the return rights might vary slightly, but the bigger picture is a legally secured right to return online purchases for customers - including Apple customers.

We have a different implementation in UK - the retailers are not required to accept returns if the product is opened.

This is the general take on it:

Items that can't be returned
Most retailers have policies which stipulate that they will accept non-faulty returns, as long as items are unused and in perfect condition with their undamaged original packaging.

But there are some returns exceptions worth knowing about.

• • plane and train tickets, as well as concert tickets, hotel bookings, car rental reservations and catering services for specific dates
  • goods and drinks delivered to you by regular delivery – for example delivery by a milkman.
  • goods made to order or clearly personalised – such as a tailor-made suit
  • sealed audio, video or computer software, such as DVDs, which you have unsealed upon receipt.
  • online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it
  • goods bought from a private individual rather than a company
  • urgent repairs and maintenance contracts – if you call a plumber to repair a leaking shower, you can't cancel the work once you have agreed on the price of the service.
  
  Please note that this list is not exhaustive.

I know some other countries are more lenient (Australia makes it so Apple even can't offer a 1 year warranty, while in the UK Apple are able to offer 1 year warranty).

 

[Falhófnir]

No, I am sure they wanted to but the Intel 45W chips no longer have a good enough iGPU to be classed as "Pro" by Apple's standards. It doesn't look like we have any suitable upcoming chips which will be of GT3/GT4 GPU standard (such as the HD 640, HD 650 or the HD 655).

Considering the nTB 13" Pro uses 15W class chips rather than 28W there's precedent for Apple to build a nTB 15" Pro using a 28W quad core chip with Iris Plus. Why they haven't is another question, lack of demand could be one reason, profiteering another.

 

[awesomedeluxe]

Do you think they will release a 15" base model with just an integrated GPU?
Radeon is consuming too much energy.

Considering the nTB 13" Pro uses 15W class chips rather than 28W there's precedent for Apple to build a nTB 15" Pro using a 28W quad core chip with Iris Plus. Why they haven't is another question, lack of demand could be one reason, profiteering another.

Radeon is a house burner for sure. AMD's power/performance ratio is worse than both Intel's and nVidia's. Navi and 7nm will help, but I would still expect AMD to trail its rivals in this area. Yet I fully expect Apple to adopt AMD parts again next year, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Why?

Because AMD makes Apple's graphics parts to spec. Apple wants HBM 2? Apple gets HBM 2. Apple wants a graphics part at a thermal envelope used nowhere else in the industry? Ok, AMD will do some nip and tuck and make it happen. Those new Vega parts you see in the Macbook were made for the Macbook (and were probably supposed to be there 6 months ago--this is typical AMD). There's nothing stopping them from using those parts elsewhere, but they were made to spec for the MBP, and if Apple didn't have a guaranteed purchase order for them they would absolutely not be worth the time or resources for AMD to create.

Intel would never do this. And frankly, were their GPUs not so tightly integrated with their chips, I don't think they'd impress much--we'll see what happens when intel's discrete GPUs hit shelves. As it stands, Iris Plus is not remotely comparable to what the Vega part is capable of.

nVidia won't do this for anything resembling a reasonable price. There's a reason console makers have AMD design their parts! Nintendo uses nVidia, but it's basically a stock Tegra--they didn't even move it to FinFET. It's possible nVidia will release a Turing part that happens to roughly fit Apple's needs, but it's frankly unlikely. Yes, absolutely, nVidia is capable of producing a better GPU for Apple than AMD, but if they won't do it it doesn't matter.