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Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]

Glockworkorange said:
I suspect you knew that, but wanted to make sure you could nitpick the statement for an inaccuracy, so congrats for doing that.
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What you’re describing is the ******** Microsoft seems obsessed with: the same OS somehow usable on devices with very different use cases. It started with windows 8, they added “tablet mode” in 10 to appease users but it’s still a hot mess as I understand it.

So again. You’re suggesting apple will do something they've specifically said they think is a bad idea, based on zero evidence, and against a bunch of evidence to the contrary.
 
Glockworkorange said:
I’m not a software engineer and perhaps not so versed in this terminology, so I think maybe I misuse terms when discussing “code” and “software.”

So here’s what I meant (if I was unclear)—-macOS and iOS “sharing a codebase” that is identical or very close to identical, or perhaps something where “porting” an app between operating systems becomes almost trivial. That’s what I meant.

I suspect you knew that, but wanted to make sure you could nitpick the statement for an inaccuracy, so congrats for doing that.
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When Steve Jobs described the iPhone runs OS X with the full API’s he was exaggerating a bit. He likely said this to make users feel comfortable because OS X was like a crown jewel back 2007.

But I remember watching an interview with key iPhone OS developers on the Computer History Museum Facebook page (Scott Forstall was in it too). Some of the devs said, not the case; iOS barely shared any lineage with OS X and it was basically made from scratch. This was further reinforced with the introduction of UIKit and differentiation with AppKit (macOS).

That’s why desktop macOS apps can’t run on iOS, but iOS apps could actually be easily ported to macOS. Developer Steve Troughton-Smith recently demoed this by showing Safari on iOS running on Leopard like any desktop app. The other sign is Apple de-emphasizing desktop macOS apps in favor of iOS style (in particular iPad style apps on Mac).

The bigger picture behind all of this too is, Apple knows something about user patterns. I witnessed this in a Kids use old stuff on YouTube video. They let a bunch of kids between 14 to 20 use a 1998 iMac with MacOS 9.

I was shocked at the reaction, all of them thought it was extremely difficult to use. The kids described how their MacBooks today and OS X is so much easier to use and they would not use one one these.

I think this is part of Apple’s strategy to oversimplify even the desktop app experience on Mac for a new generation of users. This is the greater goal to making the Mac less complicated and ode to its history of being ‘easy to learn and use’ experience.

Some of us in here are old school Mac users, but what a Mac has meant to us from 1984 to 2020 is going to be a completely different thing to the next generation of users whose first device is likely an iPhone. Apple believes bringing that consistency to the Mac is the only way to make it survive.

Just imagine what a 14 to 20 year old is gonna think of today’s iMac running macOS Mojave in 2038? At the same time, I think Apple will trade power users for the potential larger market share. But developers won’t leave, because they will always stay where there is market share.

Also, if the promise of write once and run anywhere comes out of this, I think most will sit more comfortably.

WWDC 2019 and 2020 will be interesting
to watch.
 
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Stephen.R said:
What you’re describing is the ******** Microsoft seems obsessed with: the same OS somehow usable on devices with very different use cases. It started with windows 8, they added “tablet mode” in 10 to appease users but it’s still a hot mess as I understand it.

So again. You’re suggesting apple will do something they've specifically said they think is a bad idea, based on zero evidence, and against a bunch of evidence to the contrary.
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Stocks/News/Home/Voice Memos is evidence of universal applications. What are you even talking about?
 
Mr. Dee said:
When Steve Jobs described the iPhone runs OS X with the full API’s he was exaggerating a bit. He likely said this to make users feel comfortable because OS X was like a crown jewel back 2007.

But I remember watching an interview with key iPhone OS developers on the Computer History Museum Facebook page (Scott Forstall was in it too). Some of the devs said, not the case; iOS barely shared any lineage with OS X and it was basically made from scratch. This was further reinforced with the introduction of UIKit and differentiation with AppKit (macOS).

That’s why desktop macOS apps can’t run on iOS, but iOS apps could actually be easily ported to macOS. Developer Steve Troughton-Smith recently demoed this by showing Safari on iOS running on Leopard like any desktop app. The other sign is Apple de-emphasizing desktop macOS apps in favor of iOS style (in particular iPad style apps on Mac).

The bigger picture behind all of this too is, Apple knows something about user patterns. I witnessed this in a Kids use old stuff on YouTube video. They let a bunch of kids between 14 to 20 use a 1998 iMac with MacOS 9.

I was shocked at the reaction, all of them thought it was extremely difficult to use. The kids described how their MacBooks today and OS X is so much easier to use and they would not use one one these.

I think this is part of Apple’s strategy to oversimplify even the desktop app experience on Mac for a new generation of users. This is the greater goal to making the Mac less complicated and ode to its history of being ‘easy to learn and use’ experience.

Some of us in here are old school Mac users, but what a Mac has meant to us from 1984 to 2020 is going to be a completely different thing to the next generation of users whose first device is likely an iPhone. Apple believes bringing that consistency to the Mac is the only way to make it survive.

Just imagine what a 14 to 20 year old is gonna think of today’s iMac running macOS Mojave in 2038? At the same time, I think Apple will trade power users for the potential larger market share. But developers won’t leave, because they will always stay where there is market share.

Also, if the promise of write once and run anywhere comes out of this, I think most will sit more comfortably.

WWDC 2019 and 2020 will be interesting
to watch.
Click to expand...
I'm looking forward to this keynote more than any I can remember.
 
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kis said:
The touchbar is going the way of the Dodo - as the ARM-based machines will be hybrids with touch screens, based on the current iPad Pro models. They’ll be running a more open version of iOS rather than Mac OS. I think it’s close to impossible that Apple will release the regular MacOS on ARM.
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The only reason I can think of not to run macOS on ARM would be speed. However, since the most recent ARM and intel CPUs used in the iPad Pro and MacBook Pro are similar in benchmark I don't see that as a roadblock at this time. With Apple moving to 5nm ARM processor manufacturing while intel still struggles to with 10nm, I see obvious power benefits to switching. Less cooling would be required. And Apple is moving to their own GPU architecture as well.

If it turns out that you get a lighter, thinner, more powerful system that lasts longer, what would be the objection to the switch to the ARM processor?
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ChineseBots said:
https://www.patentlyapple.com/paten...etic-articulating-connector-for-macbooks.html
I hope they manage to pull this off on 2019 MBP.
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As much I liked MagSafe, I do like that we standardized on USB-C type connector. My power cable in not in a position in which I can kick it out anyway. For those that do have a cable stretched across a walking area, I feel your pain.
 
Stephen.R said:
Your argument is they’re spending all this time porting an app framework from iOS to macOS, because they’re going to abandon macOS for something iOS based?

Sure that makes sense.
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It actually makes perfect sense - they’re focusing on iOS development and instead of making more apps for a dying OS. So they decided to make iOS apps compatible on OS X
 
I some how suspect Apple still doesn’t or barely has iOS self hosting. When Apple gets Xcode running, that’s the time I think we can consider iOS a mature operating system. There seems to be some technical challenges there or they would already do it.
 
kis said:
It actually makes perfect sense - they’re focusing on iOS development and instead of making more apps for a dying OS. So they decided to make iOS apps compatible on OS X
Click to expand...

I believe it's more about countering the relative lack of native app support macOS sees (due to increasing "web app" only/performance terrible Electron apps). Plenty of the popular web-only/Electron-based Mac apps have a truly native iOS app from the same company. This honestly seems like the next evolution of the 'fat binary' concept from years ago. One 'app', that runs on multiple platforms - iOS and macOS, and presumably (the software I write isn't for macos/ios so I don't know the specifics) [at some point] will adapt to the device in question (e.g. screen size, windowed vs full screen, mouse vs touch etc.

If macOS were "dying" as you put it, why would Apple invest years of effort to let iOS apps run on it? If anything they'd be making efforts to allow existing macOS apps run on iOS (i.e. there was no Mac OS X emulation environment for Mac OS 9; there was no translation of Intel binaries for PPC Macs; etc).
 
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Mr. Dee said:
I some how suspect Apple still doesn’t or barely has iOS self hosting. When Apple gets Xcode running, that’s the time I think we can consider iOS a mature operating system. There seems to be some technical challenges there or they would already do it.
Click to expand...

Apple will never merge iOS with macOS. Both will remain. The Mac isn't going away and it will run macOS. iOS will not become macOS. Apple has said as much many times.
 
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Mr. Dee said:
Some of us in here are old school Mac users, but what a Mac has meant to us from 1984 to 2020 is going to be a completely different thing to the next generation of users whose first device is likely an iPhone. Apple believes bringing that consistency to the Mac is the only way to make it survive.

Just imagine what a 14 to 20 year old is gonna think of today’s iMac running macOS Mojave in 2038?
Click to expand...
Exactly. Many of the things that people are asking for here sound as rational, but as destined to be obsoleted, as the demands of MSDOS fans when the original Mac was introduced. Yes, there's still a use for a command line, but it's limited. I'm guessing the same will be the case in 20 years for all those ports, the mouse, and so on. All going the way of vinyl.
 
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Mr. Dee said:
But I remember watching an interview with key iPhone OS developers on the Computer History Museum Facebook page (Scott Forstall was in it too). Some of the devs said, not the case; iOS barely shared any lineage with OS X and it was basically made from scratch. This was further reinforced with the introduction of UIKit and differentiation with AppKit (macOS).
Click to expand...
The UI layer is completely different, but the rest? Isn't the whole Darwin layer with all of its libraries and daemons basically the same. And many app-level frameworks are the same, too, just look at the developer documentation.
 
Mr. Dee said:
But I remember watching an interview with key iPhone OS developers on the Computer History Museum Facebook page (Scott Forstall was in it too). Some of the devs said, not the case; iOS barely shared any lineage with OS X and it was basically made from scratch. This was further reinforced with the introduction of UIKit and differentiation with AppKit (macOS).
Click to expand...

Got a link to something? Preferably not on facebook?

The Bloomberg article (which MacRumors referenced at the time) about Scott Forstall paints a different picture:

Around 2005, Jobs faced a crucial decision. Should he give the task of developing the device’s software to the team that built the iPod, which wanted to build a Linux-based system? Or should he entrust the project to the engineers who had revitalized the software foundation of the Macintosh? In other words, should he shrink the Mac, which would be an epic feat of engineering, or enlarge the iPod? Jobs preferred the former option, since he would then have a mobile operating system he could customize for the many gizmos then on Apple’s drawing board. Rather than pick an approach right away, however, Jobs pitted the teams against each other in a bake-off.

Forstall led the Mac-centric approach. He commanded a team of fewer than 15 engineers who went to work stripping down Apple’s OS X operating system to see if it would work on a device with considerably less power and battery life than a regular computer.
Click to expand...

And at the end of the article there is a quote directly from Fadell, who responded after the article was published.

“I inherited the competitive iPhone OS project from Jon Rubenstein and Steve Sakoman when they left Apple. I quickly shuttered the project after assessing that a modified Mac OS was the right platform to build the iPhone upon. It was clear that to create the best smartphone product possible, we needed to leverage the decades of technology, tools and resources invested in Mac OS while avoiding the unnecessary competition of dueling projects.”
Click to expand...
 
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cs02rm0 said:
The use of the command line is limited to things like building the software that people who don't use the command line depend upon. That's not going to be obsolete for a long time.
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Precisely. That's why I said the use was limited and not that it's obsolete. It's like vinyl. A few people use it. Way more play digital music using mobile devices. Or like cars. Some people open them up and tune the engine. Way more just turn the key to drive it.

I configured a server VM for time machine on ProxMox using the command line. But 90% or more of the time, I’m using a mouse. Actually, no. Most of the time I’m using a trackpad so even that has evolved. I wouldn't be surprised if more consumer oriented systems like phones overtake laptops for most common tasks like communications. Oh wait, they already did, all without keyboards and mice.
 
PeterJP said:
Precisely. That's why I said the use was limited and not that it's obsolete. It's like vinyl. A few people use it. Way more play digital music using mobile devices. Or like cars. Some people open them up and tune the engine. Way more just turn the key to drive it.

I configured a server VM for time machine on ProxMox using the command line. But 90% or more of the time, I’m using a mouse. Actually, no. Most of the time I’m using a trackpad so even that has evolved. I wouldn't be surprised if more consumer oriented systems like phones overtake laptops for most common tasks like communications. Oh wait, they already did, all without keyboards and mice.
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Development tools and Terminal will always be around, but those are gonna be deeply hidden with future operating systems from Apple or something you add yourself from the App Store if you need.

Little do we forget, earlier versions of OS X use to include the Developer tools on CD in the box. I believe they stopped doing that with either Tiger or Leopard.

Software development in the future will be a calling as it is today. If you want to write for Apples future platforms, you will have the knowledge to download and install what is necessary to do so.
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Stephen.R said:
Got a link to something? Preferably not on facebook?

The Bloomberg article (which MacRumors referenced at the time) about Scott Forstall paints a different picture:



And at the end of the article there is a quote directly from Fadell, who responded after the article was published.
Click to expand...
Here it is, 2 hours:

[doublepost=1554735045][/doublepost]This might be the part you want to watch:

 
apple 1992 said:
do use think the 13inch MacBook Pros will get i9 cpus like the 15 inch
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Core i9s currently only exist for the 45W H series mobile processors from Intel, the 13" pro uses 28W U series processors, so that's a no simply due to there not being a suitable chip available to use. i9 is more of a top end re-branding for what would have previously been an i7 than anything anyway, so you're not missing out on a whole lot of performance.
 
PeterJP said:
Exactly. Many of the things that people are asking for here sound as rational, but as destined to be obsolete, as the demands of MSDOS fans when the original Mac was introduced. Yes, there's still a use for a command line, but it's limited. I'm guessing the same will be the case in 20 years for all those ports, the mouse, and so on. All going the way of vinyl.
Click to expand...

The mouse isn't going away. Too many apps are too efficient with the mouse vs the finger or the stylus. Work with Microsoft Excel for a while and see what I mean. Think about all the editing, developing, interface building, and on and on. If you think Apple will give iOS something just like Finder, it won't happen. We've been asking for it, but Apple will never do it.
 
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