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Do you really think they’ll release a new laptop without addressing the keyboard? I kind of assume any new MacBook Pro will have a new keyboard.

That’s my assumption as well. The keyboard has been one of the biggest and most widely complained about issue with the 2016-2018 models. If bet that most of the MacBook Pros getting sent to the Apple repair center are for keyboard issues. Really, other than the keyboard, this generation of MacBook Pros is pretty darn good.

The real question is if Apple will once again try to reinvent the keyboard again with something all new, continue refining the keyboard they have now or quietly go back to a traditional keyboard design...
 
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The real question is if Apple will once again try to reinvent the keyboard again with something all new, continue refining the keyboard they have now or quietly go back to a traditional keyboard design...

I think they will either update the butterfly with a gen 4 that fixes the issues, or completely redesign the keyboard. I don’t see them going back to the older gen.

Personally I’d like to see them fix the keyboard problems, reduce the bezels and add haptic feedback to the Touch Bar, I think that would make it more helpful.
 
Regarding the keyboard; what do you guys think about this idea:

For many years, Apple has used haptic technology for the MacBook trackpads. The technology works so well that I often forget that the trackpad doesn’t actually “click” when pressed. My thinking is that Apple should adopt that same technology for the keyboard... Here’s how:

Create a slightly raised surface with some space between each key. At first glance, the keyboard should look and feel the same as the current one. This allows people who type by touch to still do so since this haptic keyboard would still give the illusion and feel of raised individual keys. When used, each key when “pressed” would give haptic feedback to simulate a real key press.

This would have many benefits:

1. It removes the extra mechanical pieces that are involved to make real keys. This means, no stuck keys, no worrying about junk getting underneath the keys (there would be no opening) and none of the other issues that have plagued the keyboards of this generation of MacBooks.

2. It would give the user more control over key feel. The user can decide how much effort it should take to activate each key and how much feedback should be given when each key is pressed. You could basically simulate having more or less travel. You could also do deep presses that activate other functions (deep press on shift could be another way to activate Caps lock).

3. Durability wise, since you wouldn’t need a hole for each key, you would potentially have a keyboard that is more spill and dust resistant.

Personally, I think haptics are good enough to make this happen and if designed right, I think it could give a good typing experience that comes close to the feel of a real keyboard. Also, the extra space that Apple saves by bot having to use physical key mechanisms will allow room for better cooling and / or a bigger battery.
 
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Regarding the keyboard; what do you guys think about this idea:

For many years, Apple has used haptic technology for the MacBook trackpads. The technology works so well that I often forget that the trackpad doesn’t actually “click” when pressed. My thinking is that Apple should adopt that same technology for the keyboard... Here’s how:

Create a slightly raised surface with some space between each key. At first glance, the keyboard should look and feel the same as the current one. This allows people who type by touch to still do so since this haptic keyboard would still give the illusion and feel of raised individual keys. When used, each key when “pressed” would give haptic feedback to simulate a real key press.

This would have many benefits:

1. It removes the extra mechanical pieces that are involved to make real keys. This means, no stuck keys, no worrying about junk getting underneath the keys (there would be no opening) and none of the other issues that have plagued the keyboards of this generation of MacBooks.

2. It would give the user more control over key feel. The user can decide how much effort it should take to activate each key and how much feedback should be given when each key is pressed. You could basically simulate having more or less travel. You could also do deep presses that activate other functions (deep press on shift could be another way to activate Caps lock).

3. Durability wise, since you wouldn’t need a hole for each key, you would potentially have a keyboard that is more spill and dust resistant.

Personally, I think haptics are good enough to make this happen and if designed right, I think it could give a good typing experience that comes close to the feel of a real keyboard. Also, the extra space that Apple saves by bot having to use physical key mechanisms will allow room for better cooling and / or a bigger battery.

They got a patent for something like this a while ago but I highly doubt it will fly for those of us that spend hours typing / using the keyboard for shortcuts...

I don't see this coming so soon - if ever.

Nothing beats physical travel...
 
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Regarding the keyboard; what do you guys think about this idea:

For many years, Apple has used haptic technology for the MacBook trackpads. The technology works so well that I often forget that the trackpad doesn’t actually “click” when pressed. My thinking is that Apple should adopt that same technology for the keyboard... Here’s how:

Create a slightly raised surface with some space between each key. At first glance, the keyboard should look and feel the same as the current one. This allows people who type by touch to still do so since this haptic keyboard would still give the illusion and feel of raised individual keys. When used, each key when “pressed” would give haptic feedback to simulate a real key press.

This would have many benefits:

1. It removes the extra mechanical pieces that are involved to make real keys. This means, no stuck keys, no worrying about junk getting underneath the keys (there would be no opening) and none of the other issues that have plagued the keyboards of this generation of MacBooks.

2. It would give the user more control over key feel. The user can decide how much effort it should take to activate each key and how much feedback should be given when each key is pressed. You could basically simulate having more or less travel. You could also do deep presses that activate other functions (deep press on shift could be another way to activate Caps lock).

3. Durability wise, since you wouldn’t need a hole for each key, you would potentially have a keyboard that is more spill and dust resistant.

Personally, I think haptics are good enough to make this happen and if designed right, I think it could give a good typing experience that comes close to the feel of a real keyboard. Also, the extra space that Apple saves by bot having to use physical key mechanisms will allow room for better cooling and / or a bigger battery.
Apple actually filed multiple patents regarding a glass surface keyboard that sound very similar to your concept, most recently this one. It describes a glass keyboard where the individual keys itself are still elevated (so you could find them by feel alone and touch type) that, from what I understand, will be deformed when you press it (as in, move downwards like conventional keyboards, though not necessarily with as much key travel) and use tactile responses that are generated in the exact region that you're touching the key. It's supposed to be a combination of both of those (key travel + haptic/"Taptic" response) that will create the tactile feel when typing.

I think a lot of people here will tell you that the idea is BS and that Apple should return to keyboards with more key travel, but personally, I actually like the idea. If done right, such a glass keyboard could be as thin or thinner than what we have now, but could feel like it has a lot more key travel and tactile response than our current keyboards, while inheriting none of the reliability concerns of the butterfly keyboard, and having a ton of additional advantages.

Apple's current Force Touch trackpads and Home Buttons on the iPhone 7/8 already don't physically click anymore, yet most people who don't know any better would swear they do because the tactile response is just so good. Yet when you look back at the comment sections of MacRumors and other sites of articles where the patents of a haptic Home Button or trackpad initially surfaced, people were just as critical of these ideas as they are now about a haptic glass keyboard, claiming that haptic sensations could never replace the physical click of a trackpad or button. Today, most people don't want to go back to Apple's pre-haptic trackpads anymore.

Of course, Apple's current haptic technology isn't quite there yet. For example, the current Taptic Engine isn't very good at delivering a haptic signal only to a specific area (in the keyboard patent, it's described that only the area surrounding the pressed key would get the haptic sensation, because you don't want to feel like all of your keys are being pressed down when you only press one of them). But I'm sure Apple is already working on better haptic technology, and I see no reason why we can overcome hurdles like these in the future. Personally, I think it's more of a question of when, not if we see a haptic glass keyboard. I've said it before and I'll say it now: I think the Touch Bar was only the first step in Apple's long-term plan for laptop keyboards.

I also think you're spot-on about the advantages of a glass keyboard: customizability of the haptic feel would be a big one. Right now, a single keyboard provides the same tactile experience for everyone, but some people prefer more key-travel and tactile response than others. With the glass keyboard from Apple's patent, you could adjust the haptic response at any time, like you already can right now for the trackpad (though probably with a lot more options, for example different tactile responses for different keys). It could also be an important step in finally making laptops waterproof, which would be a big milestone by itself and just isn't feasible with most conventional laptop keyboards.

But maybe most importantly: the keyboard area could turn into a secondary screen. It could give you additional screen real-estate, it could switch the letters on the keycaps at any time (meaning, you could switch the keyboard layout for your keyboard not just in software, but physically by changing the keycap descriptions), you could preview keyboard shortcuts right on the keyboard itself instead of digging through menus to learn them, software could be allowed to put custom symbols on each key, etc.etc. There are numerous applications where having each keycap be a tiny screen would be useful, and I believe that alone could already make such a glass keyboard worthwhile.

But alas – it's all speculation for now. We know that Apple is at the very least considering a glass keyboard, judging by their patents, but that doesn't guarantee us that we'll ever see it in an actual product. And while I personally believe it's more of a question of when than if, that doesn't mean that we'll see it anytime soon. Could be a decade or longer, as we have very little insight on how fast haptic technology will be evolving and how many issues such a deformable glass surface could have that need to be worked out. It's definitely no replacement for getting a new, no-longer-failure-prone keyboard in this year's MBP redesign. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if we one day look back at the derogatory comments about this patent the same way we do now about the derogatory comments the first haptic trackpad patent got, or the haptic Home Button, or a lot of other haptic technology in the iPhone.
 
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My hope on this is that they start using two (or more) keyboards in different machines. Move to something like this in the MacBook, and for iPad keyboard accessories, when they get it right. At the same time, make the goal for the MBP "ThinkPad keyboard or better". It's long past time for the soon-to-be 16" MBP to be constrained to a keyboard from a 2 lb computer.

The insanity of one keyboard for the entire range started when they released the first 12" Aluminum PowerBook G4 (in January 2003). They somehow managed to shoehorn a nearly full-size keyboard (the primary keys were full-size, with some compromises on function and arrow keys) into that tiny (for its time) machine. The same day, they released a 17" PowerBook with the same keyboard. The half-size function and arrow keys made no sense at all on a 17" machine that could have accommodated a full-size keyboard plus a number pad - but Apple wanted to use the same keyboard!
 
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I think they will either update the butterfly with a gen 4 that fixes the issues, or completely redesign the keyboard. I don’t see them going back to the older gen.

Personally I’d like to see them fix the keyboard problems, reduce the bezels and add haptic feedback to the Touch Bar, I think that would make it more helpful.
I can't imagine them coming out and saying "this is our fourth generation butterfly keyboard." They should just sort of throw in the towel if they get to that point. Probably easiest to save face by proclaiming a new design---they can incorporate the new keyboard without having to embarrassingly admit the keyboard is a failure.
 
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Regarding the keyboard; what do you guys think about this idea:

For many years, Apple has used haptic technology for the MacBook trackpads. The technology works so well that I often forget that the trackpad doesn’t actually “click” when pressed. My thinking is that Apple should adopt that same technology for the keyboard... Here’s how:

Create a slightly raised surface with some space between each key. At first glance, the keyboard should look and feel the same as the current one. This allows people who type by touch to still do so since this haptic keyboard would still give the illusion and feel of raised individual keys. When used, each key when “pressed” would give haptic feedback to simulate a real key press.

This would have many benefits:

1. It removes the extra mechanical pieces that are involved to make real keys. This means, no stuck keys, no worrying about junk getting underneath the keys (there would be no opening) and none of the other issues that have plagued the keyboards of this generation of MacBooks.

2. It would give the user more control over key feel. The user can decide how much effort it should take to activate each key and how much feedback should be given when each key is pressed. You could basically simulate having more or less travel. You could also do deep presses that activate other functions (deep press on shift could be another way to activate Caps lock).

3. Durability wise, since you wouldn’t need a hole for each key, you would potentially have a keyboard that is more spill and dust resistant.

Personally, I think haptics are good enough to make this happen and if designed right, I think it could give a good typing experience that comes close to the feel of a real keyboard. Also, the extra space that Apple saves by bot having to use physical key mechanisms will allow room for better cooling and / or a bigger battery.
I could get used to this—but the haptics have to be very deep.
[doublepost=1557978041][/doublepost]
My hope on this is that they start using two (or more) keyboards in different machines. Move to something like this in the MacBook, and for iPad keyboard accessories, when they get it right. At the same time, make the goal for the MBP "ThinkPad keyboard or better". It's long past time for the soon-to-be 16" MBP to be constrained to a keyboard from a 2 lb computer.

The insanity of one keyboard for the entire range started when they released the first 12" Aluminum PowerBook G4 (in January 2003). They somehow managed to shoehorn a nearly full-size keyboard (the primary keys were full-size, with some compromises on function and arrow keys) into that tiny (for its time) machine. The same day, they released a 17" PowerBook with the same keyboard. The half-size function and arrow keys made no sense at all on a 17" machine that could have accommodated a full-size keyboard plus a number pad - but Apple wanted to use the same keyboard!
This was the introduction with Yao Ming and Mini Me.
 
Nothing beats physical travel...
Said everyone when the first patent for a completely immobile trackpad with a haptic click floated around. Or for a Home Button with haptic feedback. Or when the first reviewers and journalists talked about how amazing a lot of buttons, sliders and pickers in iOS felt with the iPhone 7's new Taptic Engine, or the various types of notifications on the Apple Watch. Or when Apple introduced the force-press Flash/Camera buttons on the iPhone X.

A glass keyboard also may not actually have zero physical key travel, as Apple's patent talks about a compression technology for the glass that may still allow the keys to physically move when pressed.

Apple has been at the very top of haptic feedback engines in mobile devices for years now, and have time and time again exceeded people's expectations in this regard. Its' very possible that such a glass keyboard, if (or when) it comes, will be the exact same story. You have to realize that while such a glass keyboard would physically have less travel, it could potentially feel like it has significantly more key travel than for example the butterfly and maybe even the Magic Keyboard. And the advantages of such a glass keyboard would be numerous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: personally, I think it's a matter of 'when', not 'if' Apple invents a glass keyboard. It could still be several years away, it very likely isn't anytime soon, but haptic technology isn't at a standstill either, with rumors floating around about a new generation of Taptic Engine in this or next years iPhones.
 
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Said everyone when the first patent for a completely immobile trackpad with a haptic click floated around. Or for a Home Button with haptic feedback. Or when the first reviewers and journalists talked about how amazing a lot of buttons, sliders and pickers in iOS felt with the iPhone 7's new Taptic Engine, or the various types of notifications on the Apple Watch. Or when Apple introduced the force-press Flash/Camera buttons on the iPhone X.

A glass keyboard also may not actually have zero physical key travel, as Apple's patent talks about a compression technology for the glass that may still allow the keys to physically move when pressed.

Apple has been at the very top of haptic feedback engines in mobile devices for years now, and have time and time again exceeded people's expectations in this regard. Its' very possible that such a glass keyboard, if (or when) it comes, will be the exact same story. You have to realize that while such a glass keyboard would physically have less travel, it could potentially feel like it has significantly more key travel than for example the butterfly and maybe even the Magic Keyboard. And the advantages of such a glass keyboard would be numerous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: personally, I think it's a matter of 'when', not 'if' Apple invents a glass keyboard. It could still be several years away, it very likely isn't anytime soon, but haptic technology isn't at a standstill either, with rumors floating around about a new generation of Taptic Engine in this or next years iPhones.

The popularity of mechanical keyboards costing $100 - $200 indicates that there is a lot of demand for key travel.

I don't think that a glass keyboard can have anywhere near the feel of a mechanical keyboard.

One other thing - do you personally know anyone that does touch typing on a glass keyboard without looking at the keyboard. I do touch typing all the time on a mechanical keyboard and there are physical aspects of the keyboard that make this easier. The F and J keys are articulated so you know where you are. The space bar is articulated so you know where you are and I often rest my right pinkie on the Return key so I have a mental reference to the rest of the keyboard.
 
The popularity of mechanical keyboards costing $100 - $200 indicates that there is a lot of demand for key travel.
Without doubt, but you probably won't ever find them in one of Apple's future laptops, and in not that many laptops in general, so this is not really relevant. Sure, there are a few laptops with mechanical keyboards out there, but they are much thicker and you give up a lot of the portability and other features for it. The question is whether glass keyboards with haptic feedback will ever be able to match the physical keyboards of the thin ultrabooks they are intended for, not of laptops of a completely different form factor.

Mechanical keyboards aren't going away anytime soon, but their place is not in laptops as thin as the MacBook Pro, XPS, etc., and we shouldn't stop to strive making the typing experience on ultra thin keyboards better just because some part of the user base will always connect a mechanical keyboard.
I don't think that a glass keyboard can have anywhere near the feel of a mechanical keyboard.
The feel of a mechanical keyboard, probably not. But I believe it could very well match or exceed the tactile feel and typing experience of ultraportable laptop keyboards one day.
One other thing - do you personally know anyone that does touch typing on a glass keyboard without looking at the keyboard. I do touch typing all the time on a mechanical keyboard and there are physical aspects of the keyboard that make this easier. The F and J keys are articulated so you know where you are. The space bar is articulated so you know where you are and I often rest my right pinkie on the Return key so I have a mental reference to the rest of the keyboard.
The keys on the latest one of Apple's glass keyboard patents are also elevated, so you can blindly put your fingers down on it, and I'm sure the F and J keys could also have those little accents, and so on. So I'm not seeing how this is all that relevant. Apple's latest patent doesn't just depict a completely even glass surface, it's much more intricate than that, it definitely depicts a keyboard that is made to be touch-typed on.

I'm not saying that strapping an iPad in front of your monitor and typing on that can match the feel of a physical or even mechanical keyboard, of course not. What I do think is that haptic/"Taptic" engines could one day reach the point where a keyboard made of glass with either no or at least very little key travel could feel as good to type on as our thin laptop keyboards today, and it could be a similar change in perception than with for example our current Force Touch trackpad.
 
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Said everyone when the first patent for a completely immobile trackpad with a haptic click floated around. Or for a Home Button with haptic feedback. Or when the first reviewers and journalists talked about how amazing a lot of buttons, sliders and pickers in iOS felt with the iPhone 7's new Taptic Engine, or the various types of notifications on the Apple Watch. Or when Apple introduced the force-press Flash/Camera buttons on the iPhone X.

A glass keyboard also may not actually have zero physical key travel, as Apple's patent talks about a compression technology for the glass that may still allow the keys to physically move when pressed.

Apple has been at the very top of haptic feedback engines in mobile devices for years now, and have time and time again exceeded people's expectations in this regard. Its' very possible that such a glass keyboard, if (or when) it comes, will be the exact same story. You have to realize that while such a glass keyboard would physically have less travel, it could potentially feel like it has significantly more key travel than for example the butterfly and maybe even the Magic Keyboard. And the advantages of such a glass keyboard would be numerous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: personally, I think it's a matter of 'when', not 'if' Apple invents a glass keyboard. It could still be several years away, it very likely isn't anytime soon, but haptic technology isn't at a standstill either, with rumors floating around about a new generation of Taptic Engine in this or next years iPhones.
I’m fine with haptics—Apple’s are fantastic. I don’t want flat glass, however. I at least need some nubs or something to feel.
 
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I'm even more optimistic about there being a "new" keyboard in the next MBP given at least two respected tech journalists have said in recent weeks that they've heard a new one is in the works. Which lets face it, they have to do given the reputational (and financial) damage this saga has caused them.

I've no doubt a glass keyboard with haptics will come at some point, especially when you consider the entire generation of people who've grown up typing on glass. I think it could be a pretty cool product, but I don't expect to see it anytime soon. Although I'd love to see Apple release something approaching "the laptop of tomorrow" - something like the 12" MacBook, running Arm, glass haptic keyboard, faceid etc.
 
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I'm even more optimistic about there being a "new" keyboard in the next MBP given at least two respected tech journalists have said in recent weeks that they've heard a new one is in the works. Which lets face it, they have to do given the reputational (and financial) damage this saga has caused them.

I've no doubt a glass keyboard with haptics will come at some point, especially when you consider the entire generation of people who've grown up typing on glass. I think it could be a pretty cool product, but I don't expect to see it anytime soon. Although I'd love to see Apple release something approaching "the laptop of tomorrow" - something like the 12" MacBook, running Arm, glass haptic keyboard, faceid etc.
I think we'll get the MacBook running ARM next month, a new Mac Pro, a new display, a new iMac Pro and...new MacBook Pros, 16 inch display and a new keyboard. Will have my credit card at the ready...
 
I think we'll get the MacBook running ARM next month, a new Mac Pro, a new display, a new iMac Pro and...new MacBook Pros, 16 inch display and a new keyboard. Will have my credit card at the ready...

That would be awesome. I'd like to see an update to the MacBook Pro and especially it's keyboard, however the only leaks and rumours that are saying hardware will be shown off at WWDC, are for the Mac Pro and the new pro display, shown off but not released.

I would love them to announce and release other Mac updates as well but i'm not so sure they will.
 
Would be nice, but I really doubt it.
STOP RAINING ON MY PARADE
[doublepost=1558101982][/doublepost]You
That would be awesome. I'd like to see an update to the MacBook Pro and especially it's keyboard, however the only leaks and rumours that are saying hardware will be shown off at WWDC, are for the Mac Pro and the new pro display, shown off but not released.

I would love them to announce and release other Mac updates as well but i'm not so sure they will.
You're all killing my vibe.

I imagine they'll address the new Mac Pro and the new pro display.

They last updated the little MacBook two years ago. They had a chance to put new chips in it when they updated the Air. They didn't do it.

So, two years since an update and the right kind of machine to introduce an ARM chip. With WWDC approaching. The timing's right. If they release and updated MacBook and an updated Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro is ready (it was released a year ago), why not release and explain them at the developer's conference?

That's my rationale.
 
STOP RAINING ON MY PARADE
[doublepost=1558101982][/doublepost]You

You're all killing my vibe.

I imagine they'll address the new Mac Pro and the new pro display.

They last updated the little MacBook two years ago. They had a chance to put new chips in it when they updated the Air. They didn't do it.

So, two years since an update and the right kind of machine to introduce an ARM chip. With WWDC approaching. The timing's right. If they release and updated MacBook and an updated Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro is ready (it was released a year ago), why not release and explain them at the developer's conference?

That's my rationale.

I’m not sure there are any chips ready for the MacBook Pro at the moment! I’m not sure what the plan is for the 12” MacBook either.

The Mac Pro may get shown off alongside the Pro display. According to Mark Gurman from Bloomberg “Apple are contemplating a Mac Pro reveal at WWDC alongside the new Pro display”

I would like you to be right, I just don’t know if they will do that. There is a lot of software this year, for example the iPad is getting new features and they will want to demo those. They also like to keep keynotes around the 2 - 2.5 hour mark.
 
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STOP RAINING ON MY PARADE
[doublepost=1558101982][/doublepost]You

You're all killing my vibe.

I imagine they'll address the new Mac Pro and the new pro display.

They last updated the little MacBook two years ago. They had a chance to put new chips in it when they updated the Air. They didn't do it.

So, two years since an update and the right kind of machine to introduce an ARM chip. With WWDC approaching. The timing's right. If they release and updated MacBook and an updated Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro is ready (it was released a year ago), why not release and explain them at the developer's conference?

That's my rationale.

I’m hoping with you! I’m ready to buy a redesigned MacBook Pro as soon as they announce it, as long as the keyboard is decent. It’s just Apple likes to drag out their product launches, so they might not all come at once.
 
Ugh glass/haptic keyboards, nail in the coffin for people who predominantly type on their machines. Also, technologically I see an issue for even a moderately fast typer. The taptic engine is fast, but not nearly fast enough to generate feedback that can be felt in the fraction of a second your finger is in contact with a key when typing at any sort of speed. There's inevitably a delay between your finger reaching the key and the engine triggering, and I'm not sure it's currently technologically feasible to generate feedback reliably at that sort of speed.
 
The whole haptic only talk is cool, but won't that cause pain/arthritis over time? Even the low travel keys they use now have caused many users pain compared to longer travel options. I can't imagine slamming your fingers into a slab of glass would be good for your health over hundred of hours, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way I think it's an important element of a keyboard that shouldn't be overlooked.
 
The whole haptic only talk is cool, but won't that cause pain/arthritis over time? Even the low travel keys they use now have caused many users pain compared to longer travel options. I can't imagine slamming your fingers into a slab of glass would be good for your health over hundred of hours, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way I think it's an important element of a keyboard that shouldn't be overlooked.
That’s a good point I never thought of.
[doublepost=1558137387][/doublepost]
That’s a good point I never thought of.
The other issue to consider with haptics—man, I’m not sure I’d trust that technology in a 1st gen/rev A product.
 
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