Web Browsing Performance on Android 2.2 Hampered by Flash Compatibility

[BaldiMac]

By your reasoning, they should remove it from OS X and block it there too.

It sure is easier to argue when you make up both sides of the argument yourself. I never said they should keep it off the iPhone, let alone OS X. I don't care what they do. I block it or disable it myself.

It seems you'd rather Apple make your computing decisions and dictate your "user experience".

Sometimes. Is there a problem with that? Just like I pay the makers of my car to make decisions about my driving experience. I just look for a company that made decisions about their products that most align with how I would like to use them.

 

[BaldiMac]

No, it's not.

Quote one thing that I said that was not true.

You are basically shouting that Flash is a security risk because it tracks you, but turn a blind eye to the fact that most browsers, including Apple's Safari, track you pretty much in the same exact "secret" way by collecting information in DOM Storage.

I'm not shouting anything. I consider Flash a security risk because it tracks me. It is also a security risk for other reasons. The fact that other programs also track me, doesn't change that.

How does this make Flash somehow worse than using just Safari.

Flash is worse because it tracks me without notifying me, it ignores my browser security settings, and it's settings are not easily discoverable.

Moreover, Safari DOES NOT allow you to block information being collected about you in DOM Storage.

Yes, it does. In the security panel of preferences. Just where you would expect. Set Database Storage to "None" allowed before asking. But you knew that, because you took the time to edit this information out of your quote of my last post.

Adobe, on the other hand, does allow you to set Local Stored Object space to 0, which means NO supercookies can be stored.

But visited sites are still tracked.

So, if Flash DOES allow you to block information being collected about you, while Safari DOES NOT allow you to block information being collected about you, why do you attack Flash, while turning a blind eye to Apple's Safari.

Safari does allow you to block information being collected about you. I have not attacked Flash. And I am aware of how to manage DOM Storage in Safari. No blind eye.

It must be because you love Steve, and love repeating his FUD about Adobe.

Again, where has Jobs mentioned LSOs? And why do you keep bringing him up? And why do you feel the need to add an ad hominem argument to almost every post?

 

[bocomo]

Except you need to jailbreak it to do so.

Adobe should just release whatever flash plug-in they do have on Cydia and make its icon a big middle finger pointed at an apple.

modifying a product to do something it wasn't designed to do?

so...just like any other product, right?

 

[KnightWRX]

Sometimes. Is there a problem with that? Just like I pay the makers of my car to make decisions about my driving experience. I just look for a company that made decisions about their products that most align with how I would like to use them.

I'll be damned if I'll let Harley or Subaru make decisions about my vehicles. Incidently, I don't drive or ride stock vehicles. I make them my own and get so much more enjoyment out of them that way.

And you know what ? Both those companies understand the concept that the "user experience" needs to be dictated by the user himself. He's the one that's best placed to know what he enjoys and what he doesn't.

Hence why there's a very booming aftermarket for both my vehicles and even the manufacturers sell the mods themselves, be it from the hundreds of genuine harley crap, Screaming Eagle, SPT or STI.

Your analogy is so bad it's not even funny. Car/Motorcycle manufacturers want you to make their stuff enjoyable to yourself, because then you'll come back for more and they can just rip off from the after-market for ideas in order to make their products more appealing. See stuff like the CVO bikes, or the GM SS line, or the STI cars.

modifying a product to do something it wasn't designed to do?

To keep the vehicle analogy going, I don't need to modify my vehicles to bolt on different parts. Most manufacturers don't make special threads in the holes that can only accept manufacturer's bolts that can only be used to bolt in OEM parts as sold for your specific model.

The iPhone is very different. Heck, even Apple knows that the success of OS X rests on its openess and its community. Fink, Macports, all the software/dev environnements/languages available, they will not prevent anything for OS X.

 

[KnightWRX]

double

 

[gigi1701]

I'll be damned if I'll let Harley or Subaru make decisions about my vehicles. Incidently, I don't drive or ride stock vehicles. I make them my own and get so much more enjoyment out of them that way.

And you know what ? Both those companies understand the concept that the "user experience" needs to be dictated by the user himself. He's the one that's best placed to know what he enjoys and what he doesn't.

Hmmm, no responses to my previous post regarding my negative issues as a web designer with Flash long, long before the current brouhaha.

Have a story for you all (not that anyone seems to be listening to someone who actually lives- or not- by the quality of their code)
I had a potential client that insisted I create a website for her using a Flash template, she had bought and wanted to use it, never mind that she didn't have it… long story break up of a marriage, maybe it was on the ex's computer and after all everyone in the music business (like she was in) uses a Flash template, on and on.

I refused, (and again this was a couple of years ago), I had just ported several sites from being entirely Flash based to compliant (meaning "real") html. She already was short of funds, I wasn't going to take the risk of making the website, then her be unhappy and not want to pay because she was unhappy (been in business for over 30 years, already have learned THAT lesson).

But according to many here the customer is always right, that I, as a business person should do whatever the customer wants, because they are always right, even though they wouldn't know code if it bit them in the ass. And if they make a bad decision, "I" should pay because "I" should have told them to not make that decision because "I" am the professional and should know better… no matter that they wouldn't listen. Sorry, I have done that so many times, let the customer over ride my knowledge and my reward is that I get no money AND have to do the job over for free.

After a while you just say "no way, José!" If the customer wants that crap, go get someone else to be your Patsy.

Apple is no fool, they say "No way, José" to Flash right now (and maybe forever) You can only bleed losses for so long, any more and your are not a smart business but an idiot. Customers are not right in the tech industry, mostly they have no clue, no clue at all.

Not all of the html5 specifications are ready for primetime, and there are Flash fallbacks for now, but on the mobile platform... Flash is not ready period and smart designers have fallbacks there too. It is just smart business... relying on Flash only and listening to clients demanding Flash on a mobile platform is not good business, at least for Apple and the quality of user experience they expect. Don't like it? Get an Android device, it is really that simple.

 

[Compile 'em all]

No, that would be stooping to Apple's level. Adobe should continue to stay on the high road.

I assume by high road you mean mediocre and poorly-conceived software.

 

[chris200x9]

You can't justify bad performance of a product by saying it is "optional". That is not how you develop anything decent really.

If flash was a quality piece of software, you would have found it on the iPhone from day one.

really? I have the OPTION to forkbomb my OS, my OS must suck...

 

[KnightWRX]

Apple is no fool, they say "No way, José" to Flash right now

No, they don't. It works just fine on OS X.

Your analogy is flawed again. You could have told her to bugger off with her template and you'd have been right to do so. But that's not what Apple is doing here. Apple doesn't have to actively participate in Flash developement, deployment or support. Instead, they chose to actively participate in blocking it. It's not just saying "we won't give you Flash", they are saying "We'll make darn sure no one gives you Flash ever".

That would be more akin to you seizing control of your client's hosting account and domain name and erasing all traces of Flash on it, and refusing to give her her password back.

Apple should just bow out, let Adobe ship whatever it is they want to ship and then let the users decide if it's good enough for them. Just like it is on OS X. I can install Ruby, Python, I can use apps compiled from C, from Ada. I can run Java bytecode and even Flash on my OS X installation. None of it Apple supports actively in anyway. The community and 3rd parties assume their role in selling/giving you a product and helping you out with it.

I assume by high road you mean mediocre and poorly-conceived software.

So mediocre and poorly-conceived that no one has replaced it entirely yet and that 2,000,000 developpers use everyday to make animations, games or stream video/audio with.

It's been 10 years, if Flash was easy to replace, it would have been long ago. The fact that we are now seeing Canvas, which lacks a lot of what Flash offers, says a lot about what Macromedia built and what Adobe purchased.

 

[macUser2007]

Hmmm, no responses to my previous post regarding my negative issues as a web designer with Flash long, long before the current brouhaha.
... But according to many here the customer is always right, that I, as a business person should do whatever the customer wants, because they are always right, even though they wouldn't know code if it bit them in the ass.... Sorry, I have done that so many times, let the customer over ride my knowledge and my reward is that I get no money AND have to do the job over for free.

After a while you just say "no way, José!" If the customer wants that crap, go get someone else to be your Patsy.

...

Maybe you do crappy little sites for no money, because you don't understand that you have to provide what the customer wants, and do it using the best tools to achieve it most efficiently.

Most sites run by large entertainment, fashion, sports, etc. companies use Flash heavily. Some are done entirely in Flash. And there are good reasons for it.

The fact that you and a few other fanboys don't get this, is irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Soon, with Flash being available on most other mobile platforms, there will be much less incentive for companies to make mobile versions of sites.

Then, iPlatform users will become close to irrelevant, too, just like OS X users (I am one of them, too). But if I couldn't get Flash on my iMac or MBP, i'd dump Apple in a flash.

 

[Kadman]

Loading a page that I need to look at slower is still better than loading a page I don't need faster. In other words, if what I need to look at is a Flash site I'll take the speed hit instead of saying "oh well, let me just go look at something I didn't even care about because it doesn't have Flash!!"

Loading useful content takes longer than displaying useless blue boxes. Any suggestion that this article vindicates the decision to not support Flash is just pure fanboi-ism and makes me want to hurl.

 

[KnightWRX]

Loading a page that I need to look at slower is still better than loading a page I don't need faster. In other words, if what I need to look at is a Flash site I'll take the speed hit instead of saying "oh well, let me just go look at something I didn't even care about because it doesn't have Flash!!"

Loading useful content takes longer than displaying useless blue boxes. Any suggestion that this article vindicates the decision to not support Flash is just pure fanboi-ism and makes me want to hurl.

Not to mention with enabling the plug-in on-demand, you can have best of both worlds. Fast when you need it, Flash when you need it.

Choice, what a concept.

 

[GamecockMac]

Most sites run by large entertainment, fashion, sports, etc. companies use Flash heavily. Some are done entirely in Flash. And there are good reasons for it.

No...there really aren't.

 

[AidenShaw]

No...there really aren't.

Perhaps you could give us a pointer to the HTML5 standard document?

Oh, it doesn't exist.

 

[GamecockMac]

Perhaps you could give us a pointer to the HTML5 standard document?

Oh, it doesn't exist.

Oh, that doesn't address my point.

Try again, Sparky.

 

[dsnort]

Choice, what a concept.

Progress, what a concept!

 

[AidenShaw]

Oh, that doesn't address my point.

Try again, Sparky.

You had no point. You simply said that "No...there really aren't" any good reasons to use Flash.

Man:
Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

Other Man:
Yes it is!

Man:
No it isn't!

(pause)

Man:
It's just contradiction!


Other Man:
No it isn't!

Man:
It IS!


Other Man:
It is NOT!

Man:
You just contradicted me!


Other Man:
No I didn't!

Man:
You DID!


Other Man:
No no no!

Man:
You did just then!


Other Man:
Nonsense!

Man:
(exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)


Other Man:
No it isn't!

Man:
Yes it is!

(pause)

Man:
I came here for a good argument!


Other Man:
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

Man:
An argument isn't just contradiction.


Other Man:
Well! it CAN be!

Man:
No it can't!

Man:
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.


Other Man:
No it isn't!

Man:
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.


Other Man:
Look, if I "argue" with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Man:
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.


Other Man:
Yes it is!

Man:
No it isn't!


Other Man:
Yes it is!

Man:
No it isn't!


Other Man:
Yes it is!

Man:
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.


Other Man:
It is NOT!

Man:
It is!


Other Man:
Not at all!

Man:
It is!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Argument_Sketch

British humour from 1972, playing every day on MacRumours.

Progress, what a concept!

Yes, progress.

I guess that you'd say since it looks like electric cars may be viable soon, we should shut down all the petrol stations now in the name of progress.

I'd say we let the petrol stations themselves decide when to shut down due to declining sales of petrol because of the number of electric cars on the road.

(For the analogy-challenged, "petrol = flash" and "electric = HTML5". And for the really challenged, realize that "extended range electrics" with petrol-assist like the Volt are "Flash" after HTML5 handles the easy stuff.)

 

[Hal Itosis]

I think this thread now contains some of the most vacuous posts i've seen aroud here yet.

It is appropriate though that the "flashboys" are saying so much nothing... because nothing anyone says really matters. Unless Adobe produces some amazing advances in a short amount of time, Flash is going down. I love how they jumped on the VP8 bandwagon almost instantaneously... but that's a no-brainer (else their relevance would fade even sooner).

Keep spinning gentlemen (right down the drain).

 

[Max(IT)]

Another typical fanboy response, the only people saying flash is past Its prime are the most rabid apple zealots. Your typical apple zealot thinks everyone on the planet should change their websites in to an apple approved form.

You clearly have no idea what are you speaking about ...
Btw, a newbie calling all the people fanboys in an Apple based forum is something you have to think about. Could be called trolling ...
There are quite a lot of Android based forums, out there: maybe you should check someone.

 

[KnightWRX]

I think this thread now contains some of the most vacuous posts i've seen aroud here yet.

It is appropriate though that the "flashboys" are saying so much nothing... because nothing anyone says really matters. Unless Adobe produces some amazing advances in a short amount of time, Flash is going down. I love how they jumped on the VP8 bandwagon almost instantaneously... but that's a no-brainer (else their relevance would fade even sooner).

Keep spinning gentlemen (right down the drain).

I don't think anyone is arguing against HTML5 in the future. People arguing for choice simply point out the fact that right now in 2010 there is no alternative that is ready to replace it. HTML5 will come, like all it's predecessors did. It will replace Flash. Just be patient.

 

[parapup]

 

[Mal]

[snip image]

Right. Of course. I just realized exactly why all of this is happening!

Steve Jobs has a personal vendetta against me!

It's so clear now!

/sarcasm

Seriously, if that's your site, a message like that wouldn't lead me to go visit it on some other computer. It'd cause me to block your web address from my memory and never plan on visiting it again, and in fact actively warn others not to visit your page. If that's not your page, let me know whose it is so I can start warning everyone not to visit it. If it's not a page at all yet, and just a moronic image you or someone else created, let's hope it never becomes an actual page.

jW

 

[ChazUK]

Right. Of course. I just realized exactly why all of this is happening!

Steve Jobs has a personal vendetta against me!

It's so clear now!

/sarcasm

Seriously, if that's your site, a message like that wouldn't lead me to go visit it on some other computer. It'd cause me to block your web address from my memory and never plan on visiting it again, and in fact actively warn others not to visit your page. If that's not your page, let me know whose it is so I can start warning everyone not to visit it. If it's not a page at all yet, and just a moronic image you or someone else created, let's hope it never becomes an actual page.

jW

Get ready to erase this from your memory: http://sosapplesos.com/

(How you erase something from your memory and remember not to visit it again is a mystery to me but, hey ho! )

 

[Mal]

Get ready to erase this from your memory: http://sosapplesos.com/

(How you erase something from your memory and remember not to visit it again is a mystery to me but, hey ho! )

Never heard of hyperbole? Heh, you use it often enough yourself.

Anyone who implements that on an actual public website should be shot. That's such a douche tactic that it will drive away any possible visitors from an iPad, instead of convincing them that maybe there's an actual need for Flash. It's the worst possible tactic I can think of. Especially with a horribly designed fake image of Steve.

jW

 

[KnightWRX]

Right. Of course. I just realized exactly why all of this is happening!

Steve Jobs has a personal vendetta against me!

It's so clear now!

/sarcasm

Seriously, if that's your site, a message like that wouldn't lead me to go visit it on some other computer. It'd cause me to block your web address from my memory and never plan on visiting it again, and in fact actively warn others not to visit your page. If that's not your page, let me know whose it is so I can start warning everyone not to visit it. If it's not a page at all yet, and just a moronic image you or someone else created, let's hope it never becomes an actual page.

jW

Never heard of hyperbole? Heh, you use it often enough yourself.

Anyone who implements that on an actual public website should be shot. That's such a douche tactic that it will drive away any possible visitors from an iPad, instead of convincing them that maybe there's an actual need for Flash. It's the worst possible tactic I can think of. Especially with a horribly designed fake image of Steve.

jW

I thought it was pretty funny. You need to relax.