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All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

maflynn said:
I didn't realize - I guess being wider then longer in that sense will cause this. Did you try adjusting the DPI to use smaller text?
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It's not that sideways scrolling is hard to do. It's more that there's no sense of where you are, and no easy way to jump back or forth to another point in the scrolling list. Like, say, I was looking to try some games. Slide, slide, slide until I find one that looks interesting. I download and try that game. Then I go back to the Store, and I have to slide back to the point where I was before I start seeing something I haven't seen before.

And yeah, iOS App Store works the same way, but most of the sliding is vertical. And you can get iOS to slide very fast by flicking multiple times rapidly. I didn't notice a similar effect in Windows 8. Overall, everything on Win8 feels just a little harder to do than on iOS.

I don't play games but hopefully the fan in the SP3 was kicking in for you
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I have very bad hearing so I don't hear the fan, but my partner says it's been on, and he hates the sound. He says it's this soft "ssssssssss...." noise. It is still very hot, despite the fan being on.

The kickstand does have a fragile feel to it, but the folks that have the SP/SP2 and reviewers with the SP3 swear by it and love it. I hope it's been designed to hold up and doesn't give out in a year of usage.
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Kickstand is probably more sturdy than it feels. But it's just that anything with movable parts is going to feel a bit more vulnerable to brokage compared to something that is just one solid piece.

And setting up the Surface in a typing position is a two-step process. Flick out the kickstand, then open the cover. With a laptop, you just flip open the screen. Adjusting the angle on a laptop is also simpler -- just grab the screen and tilt it back and forth. With the Surface, you have to reach back and grab the kickstand lift it off the desk a bit, then use one hand to support the main body of the Surface while you push or pull on the kickstand with the other. I don't think you can do it with one hand.

I agree with a number of your concerns and criticisms but I still think it could be a great machine but I'm still on the fence.
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I think you'd have to go get one and try it before you know if it'll work for you or not. One of the reviews I read (sorry, can't remember which one, been reading too many) said something to the effect that while the reviewer found that the Surface wasn't for him, he was sure there was somebody out there for whom the Surface would be a good fit. Well, I feel the exact same way.

One thing I know for sure is I won't be recommending Win8 devices for any of my non-techie relatives and acquaintances. The possibility of confusion between the desktop and tablet modes are too great. My partner and I were taking turns trying the Surface, and we ended up installing two versions of Dropbox, two Splastops, etc. Once we realized what was happening, we found this could be used to advantage (for example, I could sign in to my Dropbox on the desktop, and my partner to his Dropbox on the tablet version). But imagine trying to explain this to a non-techie. Urgh. Just, no.

Oh, and btw, now that I've been using the Surface for a few more hours, the edges definitely feel sharp and have started to hurt my hands.

I do like the screen, however. It feels just a bit better than the screen of the iPad Air.

I can't find a comfortable position to type on the keyboard cover in bed. Might go out to the living room later and try on the sofa. If I have any more observations will report back.
 
Night Spring said:
I can't find a comfortable position to type on the keyboard cover in bed. Might go out to the living room later and try on the sofa. If I have any more observations will report back.
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One of my uses will be in my recliner. Something that my rMBP can do, but rarely because its a pain to unhook all the wires. With the docking station (coming out in August), that should give the SP3 an edge for quickly unhooking the tablet and going mobile.

I may end up trying it, if best buy does price match (for the EDU discount), maybe I'll take the plunge. If I don't like it, I can return it.
 
maflynn said:
One of my uses will be in my recliner. Something that my rMBP can do, but rarely because its a pain to unhook all the wires. With the docking station (coming out in August), that should give the SP3 an edge for quickly unhooking the tablet and going mobile.

I may end up trying it, if best buy does price match (for the EDU discount), maybe I'll take the plunge. If I don't like it, I can return it.
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Just spent some time with the Surface on the sofa and the arm chair. It is possible to balance it stably on my lap with the kickstand and keyboard cover. However, the edge of the kickstand does dig in to my legs. Not exactly painful, but not comfortable. Again, you'll have to try it yourself to see if it's something you can op live with.

The screen really is gorgeous, though.
 
Personally I'm not convinced there's much of a market for these hybrid devices, but that might just be because the offerings so far has been relatively poor. The vast majority of tablet owners I know use their devices to consume content (Facebook, web browsing, gaming etc), which something like the iPad is best suited for.
 
michaelmicro said:
Personally I'm not convinced there's much of a market for these hybrid devices, but that might just be because the offerings so far has been relatively poor. The vast majority of tablet owners I know use their devices to consume content (Facebook, web browsing, gaming etc), which something like the iPad is best suited for.
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I agree. I want iPads to stay simple. They are content/entertainment devices. I have a laptop and desktop for all other stuff. Once ipad starts becoming to complicated is when they lose what they had going for them. Apples all about being simple. As I always say sometimes less is more. Just like cars today that come with all the crazy electronic stuff. All I want is a big engine, power locks and windows and a nice radio.
 
scupking said:
I agree. I want iPads to stay simple. They are content/entertainment devices. I have a laptop and desktop for all other stuff. Once ipad starts becoming to complicated is when they lose what they had going for them. Apples all about being simple. As I always say sometimes less is more. Just like cars today that come with all the crazy electronic stuff. All I want is a big engine, power locks and windows and a nice radio.
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Yep, that's me too. Keep the devices separate and great at what they were designed to do. That's better than trying to be everything to everyone.
 
sracer said:
"When I first put on the keyboard, it didn't initially recognize it. Had to open and close several times before the keyboard finally registered."


It's a driver issue. It is being reported in various places and has been an issue since the 1st gen.
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Agreed. This happens fairly often on my 1st gen.

rowspaxe said:
Does mummy still tie your mittens to your sleeve cuffs? Question to the tech press: "how do you keep track of the conventional pens you are now using?'
Most tuck them in the bag they are carrying the device in--it such a non issue. The fact you havent used the pen says this product is not for you. I would never consider the surface if i did not need the pen.
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Are you kidding? This is a huge issue- even more so if you rely on the pen. Nobody keeps track of conventional pens because they cost a dime or so, and if you lose one, you can find another for the asking anywhere in the world. Not exactly the same thing when you are relying on a $30 stylus that would have to be special ordered if you lost it (not to mention the fact that the new stylus also relies on the unusual AAAA battery size, so better pack spares of those).

If your routine consists of going from home to the office, maybe to the coffeeshop on occasion, that's one thing. For those of us who are in and out of airports, hotels, customer sites, etc day in and day out, good luck. This should have been addressed by gen 3.
 
Night Spring said:
Go buy a Surface. Use it as your laptop and tablet for a few months. If you still think Apple needs to come out with a rebuttal, come back and tell us then.
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Hello. I have been using a Surface Pro for about six months now. I replaced my MBP and my iPad with it.

I think Apple needs a competitor to the Surface Pro.

haruhiko said:
It's being compared to the MacBook Air because it's expensive. If it's compared to an iPad then everybody will say that it's too expensive. Only by comparing it to a laptop the Surface looks cheaper.
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Can we compare a Surface Pro to a iPad, pricing-wise?

64GB iPad Air - $699
64GB Surface Pro 3 - $799

It's not that much more expensive.
 
Bearxor said:
64GB iPad Air - $699
64GB Surface Pro 3 - $799

It's not that much more expensive.
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The difference is a bit bigger then you think.

You have to include the type cover, the SP3 is really not a feasible product without it. Secondly, the base model is an i3 with only 4gb of ram. Unless you're going to use some basic apps, 4gb of ram is a bit meager.
 
maflynn said:
The difference is a bit bigger then you think.

You have to include the type cover, the SP3 is really not a feasible product without it. Secondly, the base model is an i3 with only 4gb of ram. Unless you're going to use some basic apps, 4gb of ram is a bit meager.
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I use my Surface Pro without a cover now on a regular basis. I almost always use the on-screen keyboard to input. If you think you HAVE to have a keyboard for the Surface, then you HAVE to have the keyboard for the iPad, too right? That's an additional $100 for any kind of keyboard cover attachment for an iPad.
http://store.apple.com/us/ipad/ipad-accessories/keyboards#!

Or you can use a separate bluetooth keyboard for either one, which is what I do. Cost $40.

Additionally, this "4GB of RAM is a bit meager" thing is just wrong. 4GB is more than enough for the ultra-vast majority of usage. Not one time in my use of the Surface Pro have I kicked back and said "Man, this thing is unusable without 8GB of RAM!". Because it's not true. And I've even ran Premiere on it and did some editing with it. I've gamed on it. I've worked on it. It works perfectly fine. And the i3 version running at 1.5ghz will likely work just as well for the vast majority of people as well.

I mean, let's take a moment here to just think that for $150 more than an iPad, you can have a full Windows machine in your hands. You're not limited to an "App Catalog". You want to run something, you can run it. No need for pared-down or limited versions of mainstream applications. They just work.

As much as I like the Surface Pro, I would drop it on it's ass in a heartbeat if Apple released a tablet that ran full OSX. Even if it was Bay Trail-based.
 
If you want to use the Surface Pro 3 as a laptop replacement as Microsoft markets the SP3, then you do have to buy the keyboard. Using it as mostly a tablet then I can see an argument for using the virtual keyboard.

There's no way you can use the SP3 as a laptop w/o the keyboard and yes the same goes for the iPad if you're using that as a laptop replacement.
 
Night Spring said:
Just picked up a Surface Pro 3 from local Best Buy. Will probably end up returning it, but decided to give it a try. Random thoughts.


Gets pretty hot when playing a match-3 game.

So to get back to the thread topic, I don't think Apple needs to respond to the Surface quite yet. I don't think Apple can rest on its laurels, because Microsoft is doing a decent job of catching up, but no, they haven't overtaken Apple yet.
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Thank you for your insightful comments. I've never understood why Intel processors are 10x more powerful than the Apple A series and yet they need to really crank up to play a simple match 3 game. I guess the hardware\software optimization really comes into to play here.
 
maflynn said:
If you want to use the Surface Pro 3 as a laptop replacement as Microsoft markets the SP3, then you do have to buy the keyboard. Using it as mostly a tablet then I can see an argument for using the virtual keyboard.

There's no way you can use the SP3 as a laptop w/o the keyboard and yes the same goes for the iPad if you're using that as a laptop replacement.
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I'm not arguing that it isn't really a laptop replacement without the keyboard cover because I do kind of agree with that. However, for me, I could easily see myself getting away with not using the keyboard type cover. I currently use a wireless keyboard/mouse with my current laptop and it seems like it would be easier to plug the USB dongle into the surface and use that instead. I would think that the on screen keyboard would do in a pinch similar to how my laptop keyboard does in a pinch. For people who like the portability of a laptop but don't necessarily need to use it like it is a laptop (i.e. typing with it on your lap), I think you can get away without using a type cover and using a 3rd party wireless keyboard/mouse.

That being said, if I were to get a surface pro 3, I would probably end up with the type cover when all is said in done. I would just be willing to try it without.
 
maflynn said:
If you want to use the Surface Pro 3 as a laptop replacement as Microsoft markets the SP3, then you do have to buy the keyboard. Using it as mostly a tablet then I can see an argument for using the virtual keyboard.

There's no way you can use the SP3 as a laptop w/o the keyboard and yes the same goes for the iPad if you're using that as a laptop replacement.
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I'm sorry but I'm just going to have to completely disagree with you.
 
Bearxor said:
I use my Surface Pro without a cover now on a regular basis. I almost always use the on-screen keyboard to input. If you think you HAVE to have a keyboard for the Surface, then you HAVE to have the keyboard for the iPad, too right?

>snip<

I mean, let's take a moment here to just think that for $150 more than an iPad, you can have a full Windows machine in your hands. You're not limited to an "App Catalog". You want to run something, you can run it. No need for pared-down or limited versions of mainstream applications. They just work.
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So those programs that are not from the App Store, that are full Windows programs, have been designed for keyboard + mouse input. Yes, you can use them on the Surface without a keyboard -- but the experience is less then optimal. For me, the bigger problem is the smaller target area for desktop application UI -- they are hard to control without a mouse / trackpad. I can type up a fairly long document with just the on-screen keyboard, but when it comes time to save the document, hitting "save" from the menu could be tricky.

The iPad without a keyboard provides a better experience than a Surface without a keyboard, because all apps for the iPad have been designed to be operated by finger. I was just running a program on the Surface without a keyboard, and all of a sudden, the program told me to hit Ctrl+key if I wanted to do something. How do I do that with the on-screen keyboard? I mean, there probably is a way, but I wasn't motivated at that moment to go research how to do it.

The ability to just run any application you want may be important to some people, but as more and more apps are developed for iOS, that's becoming less and less important every day. If the only thing the Surface does better than the iPad is to run legacy Windows applications, then that limits its appeal to a particular type of users that I suspect is considerably less than the majority.

I was going to install Word on my Surface to see if I could get some work done. But I find myself not motivated to do it. I already know that using desktop apps on the Surface without a keyboard is a fairly miserable experience for me, and if I'm using it with the keyboard, the only advantage over a MacBook Air is that it is slightly lighter, and it turns into a tablet when I'm done with work. That could be good if the Surface was as good a tablet as the iPad. But currently, it's not. Gets hot, has sharp edges that are uncomfortable to hold, and not enough apps in the Windows App Store. In the meanwhile, my established work flow for getting some work done on my iPad -- open document from Dropbox into Pages, work on document, save it back into Dropbox -- works well enough. Can't do the final formatting on my iPad, because formatting wouldn't stay the same when converting from Pages to Word, but the important part, of working on the document itself, is pleasant on the iPad. Can't say the same for the Surface. Might be different if Microsoft releases Word for tablet, but so far, we are still stuck with the desktop version.
 
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Bearxor said:
I'm sorry but I'm just going to have to completely disagree with you.
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How easy is it to enter large quantities of data in Excel or select multiple cells without a keyboard and mouse? I'd say nearly impossible.

Even Paul Thurrott of SuperWinSute, probably one of the biggest window boosters out there states
The Type Cover is both good and bad. On the latter front, it's an extra purchase, so you will need to factor its $130 cost into the already considerable cost of the Surface Pro 3 (which is discussed below). I'm including Type Cover in the review because I feel that this accessory is mandatory—you don't buy a portable, full-sized PC without a keyboard—and every Surface Pro 3 user will want one.
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You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but you're in the minority, one thing that is almost universally panned on the surface pro is the fact that Microsoft does not include the keyboard as part the purchase.

Microsoft is marketing the SP3 as a MBA alternative, their site has the comparison, you cannot compare a keyboard-less PC to an MBA and expect people to flock to it.
 
Night Spring said:
I was just running a program on the Surface without a keyboard, and all of a sudden, the program told me to hit Ctrl+key if I wanted to do something. How do I do that with the on-screen keyboard? I mean, there probably is a way, but I wasn't motivated at that moment to go research how to do it.
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Hit the CTRL key. It's right there. On the keyboard. I do CTRL+C/CTRL+V with the on screen keyboard all the time.

maflynn said:
How easy is it to enter large quantities of data in Excel or select multiple cells without a keyboard and mouse? I'd say nearly impossible.

Even Paul Thurrott of SuperWinSute, probably one of the biggest window boosters out there states

You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but you're in the minority, one thing that is almost universally panned on the surface pro is the fact that Microsoft does not include the keyboard as part the purchase.
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Of course there are a ton of usage cases for the keyboard. But that wasn't the point. It's the insinuation that the device is basically useless without one.

maflynn said:
You have to include the type cover, the SP3 is really not a feasible product without it.
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That's what you said.

Honestly, I don't want one. I'd much prefer a Touch Cover. Because, to me, the cover is a screen protector first and a keyboard second. I would buy a $20 snap on screen protector for the Surface with no keyboard capabilities and be perfectly fine.

Plenty of people are going to want the keyboard cover and that's fine. There's a ton of use of cases out there for it. But it is not "mandatory".

maflynn said:
Microsoft is marketing the SP3 as a MBA alternative, their site has the comparison, you cannot compare a keyboard-less PC to an MBA and expect people to flock to it.
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The post that I made that you decided to respond to was about the cost differences between a iPad Air and Surface Pro 3. I was not comparing the SP3 and a MBA.
 
Bearxor said:
It's the insinuation that the device is basically
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As a laptop replacement it is and that's how MS is positoning the Surface Pro 3 computer. As a tablet its quite large, prone to hand fatigue, as a laptop replacement its small light, and powerful. There's still a number of sacrifices in the design, but over all the SP3 is a great piece of hardware. You significantly hinder its usefulness without a keyboard and that's my point. If someone is going to buy the SP3, they need to buy the type cover as well.

The post that I made that you decided to respond to was about the cost differences between a iPad Air and Surface Pro 3. I was not comparing the SP3 and a MBA.
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and I responded that its not a viable computer without the keyboard. Someone is not going to buy an SP3 to use solely as an iPad replacement, its bigger and heavier. People buying the SP3 invariably will want to use it for purposes. Perhaps some will want it solely for a tablet and not buy the keyboard but I think the majority will buy the keyboard as they asutely realize its needed. As I mentioned even MS is marketing this not as a tablet or iPad air replacement but a laptop replacement.
 
Bearxor said:
Hit the CTRL key. It's right there. On the keyboard. I do CTRL+C/CTRL+V with the on screen keyboard all the time.
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Found the ctrl key, thanks. :D

Now, is there a way to get the Alt key without switching to the full keyboard layout?

Typing this now on the Surface with the keyboard cover. Is there an autocorrect function somewhere? I keep hitting extra keys.
 
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maflynn said:
As a laptop replacement it is and that's how MS is positoning the Surface Pro 3 computer. As a tablet its quite large, prone to hand fatigue, as a laptop replacement its small light, and powerful. There's still a number of sacrifices in the design, but over all the SP3 is a great piece of hardware. You significantly hinder its usefulness without a keyboard and that's my point. If someone is going to buy the SP3, they need to buy the type cover as well.


and I responded that its not a viable computer without the keyboard. Someone is not going to buy an SP3 to use solely as an iPad replacement, its bigger and heavier. People buying the SP3 invariably will want to use it for purposes. Perhaps some will want it solely for a tablet and not buy the keyboard but I think the majority will buy the keyboard as they asutely realize its needed. As I mentioned even MS is marketing this not as a tablet or iPad air replacement but a laptop replacement.
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You've got an excellent view of the landscape. Often people will look at their own use cases and extrapolate that to be the universal case, or focus on one particular aspect of a device as if that's all there is.

It is technically true that the SP3 is only $100 more expensive than the iPad Air. That direct head-to-head comparison however is something that Microsoft went to great lengths to avoid. So it is not reasonable for anyone else to do that.

Why anyone, especially someone sympathetic to the SP3 would deliberately position it into a clearly inferior position is puzzling.
 
No rebuttal.....

because the Cupertino powers dont see the Surface in any possible and today flavour like a worthwhile competition?.....:eek:.....:confused:


:):apple:
 
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