All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

[nomanstool]

I did mention the Type Cover in my post -- please go back and read it again.

But in case it wasn't clear, I meant that yes, Type Cover plus Surface is still lighter than a MacBook Air, but in exchange for the lighter weight, you get an inferior keyboard.

lol. here's what you said

Yes, but it has no keyboard. All the reviews I've seen says the Type Cover is not as good to type on as a regular keyboard. Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement in getting it as thin as they did, but you do give up something in order to get that thinness.

You did say something about Type Cover but you were implying that it was lighter because it doesn't have a keyboard, hence my response.

Also as I check responses in the forum people actually like the keyboard, have you even tried Type Cover 2 yet? Its the most sensitive keyboard in the planet having 1,000+ sensors, if you mis type it can do predictive correction.

The only problem with Type Cover 2 was the trackpad, and microsoft fixed that. Here are a couple of actual user reviews to quantify my post Type Cover 2 being a better keyboard that you are saying failing on reviews.

Amazon 4.1/5

Engadget's User Review 9.2/10

Best Buy 4.6/5

As you can see, user reviews are way on the top and I don't think its a lousy keyboard. Can you site some reviews that you are saying the keyboard basically suck? like 1/10?

 

[nomanstool]

I understand the temptation to do this kind of comparison, but I don't think it is completely relevant with respect to how laptops and tablets are actually used. For example, in the price comparison, almost nobody buys a 128GB iPad. It is just plain overkill for most people. Also, in the weight comparison, most people don't carry their tablet + laptop around the house. They generally pickup the device they need and use it. Even during business travel, a lot of people put their laptop in their rolling bag and only carry the tablet.

Just FYI though that comparison wasn't mine and I just saw that a random post in twitter. However I actually agree with you that its not really a fair comparison, and its somewhat a bit exaggerated on a real world usage. However having a macbook air + a 16gb iPad is still pricier than an SP3.

As another example, the table seems to criticize the need for both iOS and OSX when owning two devices. But, that is really the point of owning the proper tool for the job. The iPad is an excellent light weight tablet with an OS optimized for touch UI. The MacBook Air is an excellent ultraportable laptop with an OS optimized for keyboard and trackpad UI. The SP3 is a hybrid, and by definition, makes compromises in order to merge touch and traditional UIs into one device. These usability compromises result in a product that is somewhat uncomfortable to use on the lap (which is a common situation with a "laptop") and that is much heavier than an iPad Air when holding (which is pretty much what you do with a tablet).

I am not saying that the SP3 is a bad product. It just requires certain compromises that many folks won't want to make.

Well that's what Microsoft is banking, we'll see if they're right. Recent sources though its around 75% of the time people uses touch screen with their windows 8 laptops. I tried an SP2 and its a joy to actual touch the screen swiping and stuff.

I'm on the market of getting an ultrabook. I'm leaning towards getting a macbook air. The only thing that prevents me from buying, is the lack of retina display. Its recent refresh suck, 100mhz bump?

I don't think having a touch screen in your ultra book is a compromise. If you don't want to use it then its fine. Its the same as transforming it to a tablet (removing the keyboard). At the end of the day its your choice, it would never be a compromise because its up to the user to use it. And having a choice in the first place is actually a plus for me.

 

[Newtons Apple]

Is you are wright but $2k for a tablet? ya I know you think it's a laptop too.
not for me, real laptop has a real keyboard, But I like it as a super tablet no need key board $130) will use the internal and the PEN (love the pen can rite math
but i7 256 is more than I need and 10% student discount will make me happy.
will keep my iPad air too

I will only be paying $1200 for the 3 with 512gb, keyboard and extra pen.

Not all of us pay the same.

 

[maflynn]

I will only be paying $1200 for the 3 with 512gb, keyboard and extra pen.

Not all of us pay the same.

Thanks to the EDU discount (where I work qualifies), I'm saving over 200 on the 256Gb model with keyboard. Thanks to OneDrive I don't need a lot of storage as most of my data can reside up on the cloud

 

[s2mikey]

Thanks to the EDU discount (where I work qualifies), I'm saving over 200 on the 256Gb model with keyboard. Thanks to OneDrive I don't need a lot of storage as most of my data can reside up on the cloud

Yes, same thing for us. Wifey is a teachers aide and that worked too.

 

[sracer]

Responding to the OP, Apple doesn't need to compete. Surface as a tablet is mediocre at best. Surface as a laptop is also mediocre at best. Surface as a whole is an expensive piece of junk.

I think that the fact some of the Apple faithful can't even bring themselves to acknowledge anything worthwhile in the Surface Pro 3 is evidence of their insecurity... they have some sense of concern.

"mediocre at best", "mediocre at best", "an expensive piece of junk". Psst, your insecurity is showing.

 

[Night Spring]

As you can see, user reviews are way on the top and I don't think its a lousy keyboard. Can you site some reviews that you are saying the keyboard basically suck? like 1/10?

No, I haven't really used the Type Cover, other than playing with display models at the Microsoft store.

But for example, here's a quote from a Surface Pro 3 review:
"Just so you know, I'm typing this sentence from a Surface Pro 3. The thing is sitting in my lap, even. And you know what? I'm doing alright. This isn't my favorite laptop keyboard -- not by a long shot -- but I'm doing OK."
http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3-review/

So, an OK typing experience, but not as good as a regular laptop keyboard. And this does not contradict actual users giving it a high rating, because Surface users are people willing to live with an "OK but not great" keyboard for the benefits of Surface.

 

[sracer]

No, I haven't really used the Type Cover, other than playing with display models at the Microsoft store.

But for example, here's a quote from a Surface Pro 3 review:
"Just so you know, I'm typing this sentence from a Surface Pro 3. The thing is sitting in my lap, even. And you know what? I'm doing alright. This isn't my favorite laptop keyboard -- not by a long shot -- but I'm doing OK."
http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3-review/

So, an OK typing experience, but not as good as a regular laptop keyboard. And this does not contradict actual users giving it a high rating, because Surface users are people willing to live with an "OK but not great" keyboard for the benefits of Surface.

Are you saying that the one example is a universal truth? ...that because of the opinion of one reviewer saying that the experience is "okay" that anyone who gives it a high rating simply has a low expectation?

 

[Night Spring]

Are you saying that the one example is a universal truth? ...that because of the opinion of one reviewer saying that the experience is "okay" that anyone who gives it a high rating simply has a low expectation?

That was just one example. I've read several reviews that said similar things about the typing experience on the Type Cover. Sorry, I don't have all the links. Plus, I've seen and handled the Type Cover at stores. And what I've seen makes me think that the "ok but not great" reviews are probably the conclusion I'd arrive at if I were to use it for an extended amount of time.

Also, my intention is not to put down the users who give the Type Cover a high rating. For their needs, it's a great product, so it's understandable that they'd give it a high review. But they are not rating it in comparison to a regular laptop keyboard. You are a Surface user, I believe? Would you seriously say that the Type Cover is as good as a regular laptop keyboard?

 

[HenryDJP]

Lol. If you're a professional you would care about specs.

Not in the case of a sub-Tablet. And I love when people use the term "Professional". What do you consider a professional in regards to using a sub-Tablet?

Anyone can be a professional with the tool they use if it's used to make them money. Period.

Just my observation (and it doesn't matter if you disagree) but I don't think you're thinking outside of the world of a techie. You should. Just say for example if someone was a "Professional" :roll eyes:, that was a comic toon creator, graphic designer or a draftsman and needed the functions of the Surface Pro 3, I.E. Pen drawing features and sub-Tablet design. Their main profession deals with artwork and design. If you truly think THAT professional is thinking "i7 processor" or even cares about that when buying a tablet or any computer for that matter than you are unfortunately misguided about reality outside of tech forums. In reality when people buy the latest and greatest they assume they are getting a super powerful machine because it's the newest so it's not a case of specs. If anything most people even care about it is if they can add more ram.

 

[HenryDJP]

If you have ever tried to draw on a tablet you how important it is to have the device on a shallow angle, around 20-30 degrees. The new sp3 kickstand acheives this. To understand why it is innovative, compare it to other solutions like the wacom companion stand. The hinge is very clever engineering, really.

It's not innovative. It's just a kickstand and the way it pivots on the Surface Pro 3 should've been that way since the very first Surface. I would've loved to see the multiple hate comments on this forum had Apple put a kickstand on the first iPad and then the on the latest model they added more mobility to the existing kickstand and had the nerve to call it a ""new feature".
There would be tons of posts here saying, "Apple can't innovate anymore"

 

[zhenya]

Are you saying that the one example is a universal truth? ...that because of the opinion of one reviewer saying that the experience is "okay" that anyone who gives it a high rating simply has a low expectation?

I own a Surface Pro. Do you? To say that the type cover is mediocre is to give it far too much credit. It's marginally acceptable as a tablet keyboard (although any number of iPad keyboards are significantly better, although still sub-par themselves). As a laptop replacement, it's absolutely bottom of the barrel. I've been saying this since the first Surface release; if Microsoft wants to market this as an actual laptop replacement, they need to offer a fantastic keyboard and touchpad experience. This is a premium device looking to take sales from premium ultrabooks. Any ultrabook, let alone a premium one would be roasted if it had this keyboard and touchpad, yet somehow we're supposed to give the Surface a pass? No way.

 

[Skika]

I think that the fact some of the Apple faithful can't even bring themselves to acknowledge anything worthwhile in the Surface Pro 3 is evidence of their insecurity... they have some sense of concern.

"mediocre at best", "mediocre at best", "an expensive piece of junk". Psst, your insecurity is showing.

He is right tho.

 

[rowspaxe]

It's not innovative. It's just a kickstand and the way it pivots on the Surface Pro 3 should've been that way since the very first Surface.

Its a unique solution to serious design issue. I would not call the first surface kickstand innovative--it was just a matter of a simple hinge. The sp3 kickstand is--however--some real engineering. You can fluidly unwind it to nearly 180 degrees and then it acts a loadbearing support. Iteration is how a lot of technology is realized. I wish this stand was in my sp2-but I am realist. Things get better over time. According to your logic, early ipad owners should be outraged they did not get a retina screen.

Can apple innovate anymore? Maybe. Certainly retina display and the ipad air slim down were impressive. But there has been no functional innovation in the product since 2010.



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I own a Surface Pro. Do you? To say that the type cover is mediocre is to give it far too much credit./QUOTE]

I own an sp2 and I would say the type experience is "ok" as well. Its clealy not as good a an mba--no one on the pc side has really made as good a keyboard imo. If your doing heavy text work on your lap--this not the product for you. Of course, this is how most journalists use their pc's--hence the sp3 skepticism and or antagonism.

 

[nomanstool]

Not in the case of a sub-Tablet. And I love when people use the term "Professional". What do you consider a professional in regards to using a sub-Tablet?

Anyone can be a professional with the tool they use if it's used to make them money. Period.

Just my observation (and it doesn't matter if you disagree) but I don't think you're thinking outside of the world of a techie. You should. Just say for example if someone was a "Professional" :roll eyes:, that was a comic toon creator, graphic designer or a draftsman and needed the functions of the Surface Pro 3, I.E. Pen drawing features and sub-Tablet design. Their main profession deals with artwork and design. If you truly think THAT professional is thinking "i7 processor" or even cares about that when buying a tablet or any computer for that matter than you are unfortunately misguided about reality outside of tech forums. In reality when people buy the latest and greatest they assume they are getting a super powerful machine because it's the newest so it's not a case of specs. If anything most people even care about it is if they can add more ram.

Only spec whores care about the i7 vs. ARM processor or the DPI of the screen. Even many people that would see the benefits of using a tablet with a pen don't know a damn thing about what an i7 is or an ARM processor so that's not really a big seller for the Surface Pro 3.

Are you saying that this so called Professional you were saying ( comic toon creator, graphic designer or a draftsman ) should use an iPad instead? and that these guys should not care about specs? Heck you can't even run a full blown Photoshop on an iPad. That's just playing dumb to be honest.

If you're really a professional you should at least research for a tool that is right for a job. Do you cut wood using a hammer? Obviously you use a hammer for the nails, a screwdriver for the screws, and a saw to cut the wood. An iPad is a tool for consumption. I don't believe it was made to invent, create , imagination, or productiveness.

Believe me these artists, they notice every miniscule detail when it comes to hardware. They had an uproar when Microsoft switch to N-Trig coming from Wacom (which is basically the industry standard when it comes for pen digitizer). I bet you didn't even notice that Microsoft switch Pen provider? Lo and behold they quickly ask Microsoft what ultimately led to their decision abandoning Wacom. Mike 'Gabe' Krahulic of penny arcade gave an honest review over the switch of Pen and he was actually delighted.

Also specs doesn't only revolve on a type of processor, it involves of every single bit of the product which includes (but not limited), size, dimension, weight, screen, graphics, etc.

Also people who uses a computer I believe is inside the tech world already. I don't think you can't call a person "non techie" once they use a computer. They not be as tech savy as everyone here in the forum but they are considered a tech person if they know how to use a computer, which is like everyone these days

So please don't deny that these so professional's outside of tech world as you put -- don't care about how nice a screen is and/or how lighter and thinner their laptop is. Because frankly Apple actually revolutionized / marketed and is the forefront of spec wars. Think of unibody, choice of materials, iPhone becomes thinner and lighter, etc. Its all about specs to be honest.

I consider myself a professional web developer but I don't need the latest and greatest graphics card there is. (You were saying that all people outside of tech-world doesn't need the latest and greatest?) However, I do need a laptop that's light and thin with a nice screen preferably "retina level" (or High DPI, because i deal with a lot of code daily) plus great battery life.

First thing that comes into mind is mac book air for me. However, lacking the retina display is really a deal breaker for me. That single spec is actually what holding me getting it.

Then SP3 came, and its 40% lighter than macbook air and even thinner! has retina display too. So what's so bad about that?

You tell Sub-Tablet design as a bad thing, if you don't want it as a tablet then you can use it as a ultrabook / laptop. The main point here is choice. And having a choice is not a bad thing in my book.

 

[sracer]

I own a Surface Pro. Do you? To say that the type cover is mediocre is to give it far too much credit. It's marginally acceptable as a tablet keyboard (although any number of iPad keyboards are significantly better, although still sub-par themselves). As a laptop replacement, it's absolutely bottom of the barrel. I've been saying this since the first Surface release; if Microsoft wants to market this as an actual laptop replacement, they need to offer a fantastic keyboard and touchpad experience. This is a premium device looking to take sales from premium ultrabooks. Any ultrabook, let alone a premium one would be roasted if it had this keyboard and touchpad, yet somehow we're supposed to give the Surface a pass? No way.

I own a Surface 2 with a TypeCover2. The keyboard itself is the best keyboard on a cover that I've used. And because of the 16:9 aspect ratio of the Surface 2, the keyboard is the same size as the keyboard on my 15.4" Macbook Pro. I can type at near full keyboard speed on the TC2. Where the Type Cover 2 is a total failure is in the trackpad. That is completely unusable and inexcusable considering the price that Microsoft charges for it.

Engaging in the hyperbole (highlighted in bold) is at best, simply your opinion... and that is fine because keyboard usage is highly subjective. Having said that, I can't take the opinions of an emotionally charged post very seriously.

He is right tho.

That is your opinion. But that too appears to be based on emotions.

 

[HenryDJP]

Are you saying that this so called Professional you were saying ( comic toon creator, graphic designer or a draftsman ) should use an iPad instead? .

No, I didn't say that and there was nothing in my post that even suggested it.

 

[nomanstool]

No, I haven't really used the Type Cover, other than playing with display models at the Microsoft store.

But for example, here's a quote from a Surface Pro 3 review:
"Just so you know, I'm typing this sentence from a Surface Pro 3. The thing is sitting in my lap, even. And you know what? I'm doing alright. This isn't my favorite laptop keyboard -- not by a long shot -- but I'm doing OK."
http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3-review/

So, an OK typing experience, but not as good as a regular laptop keyboard. And this does not contradict actual users giving it a high rating, because Surface users are people willing to live with an "OK but not great" keyboard for the benefits of Surface.

I can agree as much as its not being the best keyboard. But re: having high ratings. Wouldn't ratings such as 3/5 and 7/10 would quantify an OK experience and *not* having 4.6/5 and 9.2/10? If you read the reviews that only thing that's holding back was the trackpad, which Microsoft fix on the type cover 3.

But like I said I don't want to beat a dead horse, its not perfect and there are better ones, that at least I can agree.

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No, I didn't say that and there was nothing in my post that even suggested it.

how about the follow up question which you obviously dodge lol. "...and that these guys should not care about specs? "

 

[HenryDJP]

So please don't deny that these so professional's outside of tech world as you put -- don't care about how nice a screen is and/or how lighter and thinner their laptop is.

I also didn't say that either. I said nothing about professionals not caring about screen quality or how light the laptop is. Please don't throw words in my mouth. You're just making things up now for your non-argument.

 

[nomanstool]

I also didn't say that either. I said nothing about professionals not caring about screen quality or how light the laptop is. Please don't throw words in my mouth. You're just making things up now for your non-argument.

But these are specs, you said they don't care about specs ..

 

[HenryDJP]

how about the follow up question which you obviously dodge lol. "...and that these guys should not care about specs? "

Uh, I was responding to the i7 processor which I DID mention in regards to specs. Guess the screen on your computer isn't too good since you didn't read that part. And let's not play with each other. When specs come up on forums it's usually the processor, storage solution, GPU and ram.

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But like I said I don't want to beat a dead horse....

Oh, but you have been.

 

[nomanstool]

Uh, I was responding to the i7 processor which I DID mention in regards to specs. Guess the screen on your computer isn't too good since you didn't read that part. And let's not play with each other. When specs come up on forums it's usually the processor, storage solution, GPU and ram.

Okay backing up a bit, I get it. You were responding to my reply where SP3 having a core i7 which was in response on you're so called hybrids / tablets that are already in the market. Like I said these professionals will need a tool that works for them. These hybrids you mention is either running a ARM processor or an entry level Intel processor (celeron).

And like I said in my previously long post. I very much disagree with you that these professionals would disregard and don't care about having entry level specs. For one ARM - would mean they can't run desktop apps, like Photoshop. And having a celeron really was meant for light consumption and not professional. Its like comparing apples and oranges here.

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Uh, I was responding to the i7 processor which I DID mention in regards to specs. Guess the screen on your computer isn't too good since you didn't read that part. And let's not play with each other. When specs come up on forums it's usually the processor, storage solution, GPU and ram.

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Oh, but you have been.

That wasn't for you

 

[HenryDJP]

And like I said in my previously long post. I very much disagree with you that these professionals would disregard and don't care about having entry level specs. For one ARM - would mean they can't run desktop apps, like Photoshop. And having a celeron really was meant for light consumption and not professional. Its like comparing apples and oranges here.

Uh, I don't know if you're just looking for someone to argue with but until you get your facts straight quoting stuff that I never stated this will be my final post to you.
I never said one word that professionals don't care if they get entry-level specs. I said depending on their line of work such as graphic designer, the quality of the screen (no DPI) in terms of how it looks to their eyes plus features that qualify for the work they need are what people are looking for.
The most anyone generally cares about is how good the screen looks in their eyes and possibly how much ram it comes with.

A few people outside of these forums MAY inquire about the DPI of the screen. It's not a common concern.
I ALSO said when someone (especially a person needing a new computer for specific profession of theirs) buys a new computer they generally expect it to have the latest and greatest of everything in terms of power so it's not common for most people (outside of HERE) to be asking about screen DPI, ARM vs. i7 processor and the like unless they were really into computers.

 

[zhenya]

I own a Surface 2 with a TypeCover2. The keyboard itself is the best keyboard on a cover that I've used. And because of the 16:9 aspect ratio of the Surface 2, the keyboard is the same size as the keyboard on my 15.4" Macbook Pro. I can type at near full keyboard speed on the TC2. Where the Type Cover 2 is a total failure is in the trackpad. That is completely unusable and inexcusable considering the price that Microsoft charges for it.

Engaging in the hyperbole (highlighted in bold) is at best, simply your opinion... and that is fine because keyboard usage is highly subjective. Having said that, I can't take the opinions of an emotionally charged post very seriously.


That is your opinion. But that too appears to be based on emotions.

Show me any review from a reputable site that would rate the type keyboard, when viewed in the context of its competition in the laptop market as anything other than sub-par. The idea that anyone would is absurd. The keyboard is almost passable. The touchpad is not. That's not emotion, that's logical, reasoned fact.

Could you really say with all honesty that the type cover and its touchpad is top-notch the way Apple's macbook touchpads are or Lenovo's keyboards are? Really?

 

[nomanstool]

Uh, I don't know if you're just looking for someone to argue with but until you get your facts straight quoting stuff that I never stated this will be my final post to you.
I never said one word that professionals don't care if they get entry-level specs. I said depending on their line of work such as graphic designer, the quality of the screen (no DPI) in terms of how it looks to their eyes plus features that qualify for the work they need are what people are looking for.
The most anyone generally cares about is how good the screen looks in their eyes and possibly how much ram it comes with.

A few people outside of these forums MAY inquire about the DPI of the screen. It's not a common concern.
I ALSO said when someone (especially a person needing a new computer for specific profession of theirs) buys a new computer they generally expect it to have the latest and greatest of everything in terms of power so it's not common for most people (outside of HERE) to be asking about screen DPI, ARM vs. i7 processor and the like unless they were really into computers.

You didn't say it but implied it here:

Their main profession deals with artwork and design. If you truly think THAT professional is thinking "i7 processor" or even cares about that when buying a tablet or any computer for that matter than you are unfortunately misguided about reality outside of tech forums.

All I'm saying is these professionals research and check before they buy a new product, and yes, they care about what they buy. And No, I'm not looking to argue, I'm just replying to your post. Sorry for being trigger happy earlier, if it looked that way.

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Show me any review from a reputable site that would rate the type keyboard, when viewed in the context of its competition in the laptop market as anything other than sub-par. The idea that anyone would is absurd. The keyboard is almost passable. The touchpad is not. That's not emotion, that's logical, reasoned fact.

Could you really say with all honesty that the type cover and its touchpad is top-notch the way Apple's macbook touchpads are or Lenovo's keyboards are? Really?

Just curious have you tried surface type cover 2? You did mention you own a Surface Pro and not a Surface 2 Pro, so perhaps you are using the first gen type keyboard? Also please take note sracer said "best keyboard on a cover that I've used". So perhaps he is referring to a keyboard used as a cover.