All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

[AttilaTheHun]

Just to put things in perspective, I do own a Retina MBP 15, a MBA 11, an iPad Air and a Surface Pro 2. I've bought a Surface Pro 2 mainly because of the Wacom pen support. During the new managers seminars, I've found it valuable for note taking, etc. I can use Excel for finance spreadsheets or Microsoft Project on the Surface Pro although I could do the same on the MacBook Air.

From my experience, Surface Pro is a handicaped notebook with limited laptop capabilities. Their Type Cover, which works both as a keyboard and cover, works only on a flat surface. Battery life is much lower than advertised. I've done pretty much all kinds of optimizations to save battery, as an IT manager. On average, I can barely get more than five hours of work on "normal" settings. Any MacBook Air would do much better. Even the retina MacBook Pro, which has a much better screen and functionality would blow away the Surface.

So, Surface Pro 3 has just been released? As I said, and I'll repeat, the only reason to buy a Surface Pro is because of pen support. In any other aspects, a MacBook Air blows away any Surface Pro in terms of quality, battery life, name, reliability... And now, MS dropped Wacom support for some reasons: N-Trig is cheaper to licence and its hardware is incorporated into the pen (the screen is not active sensitive like on the Surface Pro 2). In that case, you'll be better served having your iPad Air and some active stylus. It's the same as the N-Trig and you keep the much slender iPad.

IPad has Pages, which is more advanced than Word, as far as my experience goes. And, it's free. And, with active stylus options on the iPad, it can beat a Surface Pro out the water. And, assuming you need to work with MS Project files, what about Bootcamp on that nice MacBook Air?

On June 6 the Microsoft store in my area will have the surface pro 3 demo unit, I will go to play with it,

 

[maflynn]

On June 6 the Microsoft store in my area will have the surface pro 3 demo unit, I will go to play with it,

I think MS will definitely see a spike in SP3 orders when people can get their hands on those bad boys

 

[cube]

It really makes you think about buying something that could be quite useful a few times than something expensive with limited functionality.

But it is Microsoft, very expensive, prone to malware, heavy, thick, and has a fan.

 

[maflynn]

It really makes you think about buying something that could be quite useful a few times than something expensive with limited functionality.

Like beauty I think functionality is in the eye of the beholder. I think the SP3 is very functional and I'm looking forward to it. Many of the reviewers comment on how its trying to do too much. Be a good tablet and a good laptop and failing at both. I find the form factor intriguing and I'm willing to give it a shot

But it is Microsoft, very expensive, prone to malware, heavy, thick, and has a fan.

Its really no more expensive then an iPad, MBA, or MBP. So I think we can throw out the expense argument as why we shouldn't get it, because many people spend the same kind of money on iPads, MBAs/MBPs. As for Malware, that's an old argument that is no longer pertinent. The state of windows and anti-virus is such that windows is very protected.

It is thicker then an iPad and it does have a fan, but the same argument can be made about the MBA, thicker and has a fan.

 

[cube]

Its really no more expensive then an iPad, MBA, or MBP. So I think we can throw out the expense argument as why we shouldn't get it, because many people spend the same kind of money on iPads, MBAs/MBPs. As for Malware, that's an old argument that is no longer pertinent. The state of windows and anti-virus is such that windows is very protected.

It is thicker then an iPad and it does have a fan, but the same argument can be made about the MBA, thicker and has a fan.

I'm not comparing it against the MBA, but against the iPad, otherwise I would just look at ultrabooks.

It is very expensive, because if I'm looking at trying to carry that instead of a laptop sometime, it means $2000. It seems to be better to just buy a real tablet and a small Lenovo Thinkpad Edge (no plan to carry both at the same time).

 

[Mainsail]

You do realize that the new type cover keyboard is even thinner and lighter than the previous generation right? even with the keyboard its still lighter than, instead of 40% lighter its will go down around 25% lighter . Now given that its lighter than the macbook air, microsoft's whole point is that SP3 can also replace your tablet, while also being an ultrabook. So if you add or factor in an iPad's weight then you get around 50% of savings, and with one device.

Here's an interesting bit that I found on my twitter someone posted this:
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I understand the temptation to do this kind of comparison, but I don't think it is completely relevant with respect to how laptops and tablets are actually used. For example, in the price comparison, almost nobody buys a 128GB iPad. It is just plain overkill for most people. Also, in the weight comparison, most people don't carry their tablet + laptop around the house. They generally pickup the device they need and use it. Even during business travel, a lot of people put their laptop in their rolling bag and only carry the tablet.

As another example, the table seems to criticize the need for both iOS and OSX when owning two devices. But, that is really the point of owning the proper tool for the job. The iPad is an excellent light weight tablet with an OS optimized for touch UI. The MacBook Air is an excellent ultraportable laptop with an OS optimized for keyboard and trackpad UI. The SP3 is a hybrid, and by definition, makes compromises in order to merge touch and traditional UIs into one device. These usability compromises result in a product that is somewhat uncomfortable to use on the lap (which is a common situation with a "laptop") and that is much heavier than an iPad Air when holding (which is pretty much what you do with a tablet).

I am not saying that the SP3 is a bad product. It just requires certain compromises that many folks won't want to make.

 

[maflynn]

I'm not comparing it against the MBA, but against the iPad, otherwise I would just look at ultra books.

This is why MS is marketing the SP3 as a laptop replacement not a tablet replacement. It is more of a computer then a tablet, specifically the iPad because they're more limited in ability, i.e., locked down.

The wifi edition of the iPad air is 800, the SP3 is 1,000 (for the 128gb flavor) comparing it as a tablet, its pretty darn close to iPad air's cost.

It is very expensive, because if I'm looking at trying to carry that instead of a laptop sometime, it means $2000. It seems to be better to just buy a real tablet and a small Lenovo Thinkpad Edge (no plan to carry both at the same time).

I opted for the 256GB flavor and that (with the edu pricing) is costing me 1,200 and change (including the smart cover). A 13" MBA with 256Gb of storage and 8GB of ram is 1,300 dollars.

you're correct there are much cheaper alternatives like Lenovo, but i was comparing the cost to Macs since this is Apple site

 

[rowspaxe]

... And now, MS dropped Wacom support for some reasons: N-Trig is cheaper to licence and its hardware is incorporated into the pen (the screen is not active sensitive like on the Surface Pro 2). In that case, you'll be better served having your iPad Air and some active stylus. It's the same as the N-Trig and you keep the much slender iPad.

Only its not the same. Both wacom and ntrig have high resolution embedded digitizing grids. The ipad does not. Third party ipad pens are drawing on the lower resolution capacitative touch grid. Pens like jot pro have to create an electrostatic profile as large a typical mushy tipped ipad pens.

It is also unclear if MS dropped wacom or if wacom dropped MS. The larger surface pro 3 is direct competitor with wacoms companion pc.

I own a vaio duo 13 and surface pro. I like the pressure curve of the ntrig, but wacom has more robust palm rejection in normal use.

Finally, no multitasking under os7 (8?, 9?). For me this is key feature for notes with video or pdfs

 

[rowspaxe]

Just understand that this is not a pun but a serious point. When a company (Microsoft) touts the kickstand's ability to now pivot the screen more flat than before (which is something that should've been done in the first place. Doesn't require any real innovation to do that) that just shows there wasn't a whole lot to brag about with this new machine.

If you have ever tried to draw on a tablet you how important it is to have the device on a shallow angle, around 20-30 degrees. The new sp3 kickstand acheives this. To understand why it is innovative, compare it to other solutions like the wacom companion stand. The hinge is very clever engineering, really.

To put an i7 in a device as thick as an ipad 1 is pretty amazing.

 

[Appl3FTW]

Apple's reply is to not suck.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA rebuttal win

 

[TitanTiger]

I'm glad MS has decided to make a compromise device for the edge cases.

 

[cube]

This is why MS is marketing the SP3 as a laptop replacement not a tablet replacement. It is more of a computer then a tablet, specifically the iPad because they're more limited in ability, i.e., locked down.

The wifi edition of the iPad air is 800, the SP3 is 1,000 (for the 128gb flavor) comparing it as a tablet, its pretty darn close to iPad air's cost.


I opted for the 256GB flavor and that (with the edu pricing) is costing me 1,200 and change (including the smart cover). A 13" MBA with 256Gb of storage and 8GB of ram is 1,300 dollars.

you're correct there are much cheaper alternatives like Lenovo, but i was comparing the cost to Macs since this is Apple site

256GB is not enough for me for light usage.

 

[miketheappleguy]

256GB is not enough for me for light usage.

So I take it you have the 13 inch or better retina pro with 512 gb? Seriously that's not good enough for light usage?

 

[cube]

So I take it you have the 13 inch or better retina pro with 512 gb? Seriously that's not good enough for light usage?

No. If I buy a laptop for travel, it will probably be some ThinkPad Edge 11" with a 500GB hard disk (Intel, not AMD).

 

[miketheappleguy]

Ah. Never used one. What's your experience with them? I of course have trouble going back to 5400 or 7200 rpm hard drives now that I have used ssd for so long. Kinda burns my wallet.

 

[cube]

Ah. Never used one. What's your experience with them? I of course have trouble going back to 5400 or 7200 rpm hard drives now that I have used ssd for so long. Kinda burns my wallet.

I bought what was called Lenovo Edge 11 at the time and it is very nice.
I got the 3G option, upgraded the 4GiB to 8GiB, and upgraded the 320GB 5400RPM hard disk to my old 500GB Momentus XT 1st gen (7200RPM hybrid with 4GB flash which eats some more battery).
The Momentus XT came from my previous MBP and the RAM came from my current one.

 

[Night Spring]

I understand the temptation to do this kind of comparison, but I don't think it is completely relevant with respect to how laptops and tablets are actually used. For example, in the price comparison, almost nobody buys a 128GB iPad. It is just plain overkill for most people. Also, in the weight comparison, most people don't carry their tablet + laptop around the house. They generally pickup the device they need and use it. Even during business travel, a lot of people put their laptop in their rolling bag and only carry the tablet.

Exactly. I take the iPad with me back and forth from home to office, and also when I go out on the weekends. My MacBook Air stays at the office. If I ever go on a trip, my MBA might come with me, but mostly, it stays put. I use the iPad for situations where I don't need a full laptop, but it's good to have a lightweight computing device. So for my usage, it doesn't matter that the combined weight of MBA plus iPad is more than a Surface Pro, as I rarely carry them both at the same time. It does matter that the Surface weighs more than the iPad, and is bigger than the iPad. I'd need a bigger bag to carry it, and it'd get tiring carrying it around all day. I mean, I did carry the earlier iPads all day, but every time a lighter model came out, I'd jump on them because lighter = easier to carry!

 

[rowspaxe]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA rebuttal win

Oh yes, that was clever

 

[cube]

No. If I buy a laptop for travel, it will probably be some ThinkPad Edge 11" with a 500GB hard disk (Intel, not AMD).

Hm. There's an E145 with A4-5000 (quad core) and it is very inexpensive. Maybe the CPU part would not be bad then if multithreading. And the graphics should be better than Intel's.

 

[cube]

Hm. There's an E145 with A4-5000 (quad core) and it is very inexpensive. Maybe the CPU part would not be bad then if multithreading. And the graphics should be better than Intel's.

Well, it seems that the E130 performance keeps on being better, except for encryption.

Let's see if a Haswell E140 comes out.

 

[cube]

Well, it seems that the E130 performance keeps on being better, except for encryption.

Let's see if a Haswell E140 comes out.

Maybe Beema E155 would be interesting...

 

[Newtons Apple]

I think MS will definitely see a spike in SP3 orders when people can get their hands on those bad boys

I agree. I have my i7 512gb preordered and can not wait till August to get my hands on it. It will not replace my iPads, it will just add to the collection.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

I agree. I have my i7 512gb preordered and can not wait till August to get my hands on it. It will not replace my iPads, it will just add to the collection.

Is you are wright but $2k for a tablet? ya I know you think it's a laptop too.
not for me, real laptop has a real keyboard, But I like it as a super tablet no need key board $130) will use the internal and the PEN (love the pen can rite math
but i7 256 is more than I need and 10% student discount will make me happy.
will keep my iPad air too

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

Responding to the OP, Apple doesn't need to compete. Surface as a tablet is mediocre at best. Surface as a laptop is also mediocre at best. Surface as a whole is an expensive piece of junk.

Surface is like Windows 8, it tries to do everything and sucks at all of them. I agree that consolidation is a trend. Before we had MP3 players, GPS units, P&S cameras. Now we have just 1 device for all of those functions (and more). The smartphone.

If you compare spec-for-spec a MacBook Air vs Surface Pro 3, the Air is cheaper. But what about the laptop experience? Surface Pro 3 takes up more room in "laptop" mode because of the kickstand. Graphics starts at a much weaker chip than the Air. Battery life matches the 11". For many people, the Surface Pro 3 doesn't work as a laptop because it takes up too much room on your lap. A laptop, any laptop takes up less room because it doesn't have a kickstand.

As a tablet, it's HUGE. Which can be a good thing. But tablets are meant to be used more freely than laptops. I don't have detailed numbers but > 10" tablets have pretty much failed or been a small niche in the past. And those tablets were cheaper than the Surface Pro 3. If people weren't willing to bet $500 on a large tablet (> 10"), what makes them willing to bet on a $800 starting price large tablet?

Let's not forget that if you want to play fair, you must also account for the $130 Type Cover if you want to really use it as a laptop. Laptops all have built in keyboards and trackpads. I mean sure you can get by without either... but that is a trade off. And to type anything longer than short emails, I'm pretty sure many people would rather use a physical keyboard and trackpad.

Microsoft doesn't understand how people use tablets and laptops. When I made the point about consolidation with GPS, media players and cameras, people use them at the same time. I always had a media player and GPS in the car... why not combine them into one device? And what if my friends drive and they don't have a GPS? It made sense to combine those into one single device. You use them at the same time and always want it on you.

But that isn't how we use tablets and laptops. I see people curling up on the couch with a tablet, reading a book or watching video or playing a game. Their laptop is at their desk, in their bag, on the table. Heck, I do that. I can't do that with a tablet that is huge and heavy like the Surface Pro 3. Imagine holding up the Surface Pro 3 to read an eBook like you would read an eBook on an iPad Air or mini or any tablet smaller than or equal to 10". Yea, good luck with that. I'll stick to my $200 Nexus 7 or iPad Air/mini. I have friends who buy their kids iPads/tablets. iPads are also big in school settings. Tablets and laptops aren't used by the same group of people. I bought my Mom an iPad. I won't buy her a Surface. Way too complicated, not to mention expensive. Tablets and laptops do share a common user group... BUT that common user group isn't a majority. It's a niche.

Imagine using the Surface Pro 3 as a laptop. As if Windows 8 isn't God awful already... imagine fiddling with the kickstand adjusting the angle. I adjust the angle on my MacBook Air. It just takes a finger or two. Not so with the Surface Pro 3.

I imagine the Surface Pro 3 will capture a niche market. But it won't replace the laptop OR tablet for many people.

Note: The pen... will go unused by a lot of people. Just like how it's been in existence for so many years (look at Wacom) but most people today don't use them. By most, I mean go to any Starbucks or library or workplace and count how many people are using them. Apart from companies that hire graphic artists and such, most people don't use them. Don't get me wrong, the pen is pretty cool. It's useful for many applications, but those applications are niche.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Responding to the OP, Apple doesn't need to compete. Surface as a tablet is mediocre at best. Surface as a laptop is also mediocre at best. Surface as a whole is an expensive piece of junk.

Surface is like Windows 8, it tries to do everything and sucks at all of them. I agree that consolidation is a trend. Before we had MP3 players, GPS units, P&S cameras. Now we have just 1 device for all of those functions (and more). The smartphone.

If you compare spec-for-spec a MacBook Air vs Surface Pro 3, the Air is cheaper. But what about the laptop experience? Surface Pro 3 takes up more room in "laptop" mode because of the kickstand. Graphics starts at a much weaker chip than the Air. Battery life matches the 11". For many people, the Surface Pro 3 doesn't work as a laptop because it takes up too much room on your lap. A laptop, any laptop takes up less room because it doesn't have a kickstand.

As a tablet, it's HUGE. Which can be a good thing. But tablets are meant to be used more freely than laptops. I don't have detailed numbers but > 10" tablets have pretty much failed or been a small niche in the past. And those tablets were cheaper than the Surface Pro 3. If people weren't willing to bet $500 on a large tablet (> 10"), what makes them willing to bet on a $800 starting price large tablet?

Let's not forget that if you want to play fair, you must also account for the $130 Type Cover if you want to really use it as a laptop. Laptops all have built in keyboards and trackpads. I mean sure you can get by without either... but that is a trade off. And to type anything longer than short emails, I'm pretty sure many people would rather use a physical keyboard and trackpad.

Microsoft doesn't understand how people use tablets and laptops. When I made the point about consolidation with GPS, media players and cameras, people use them at the same time. I always had a media player and GPS in the car... why not combine them into one device? And what if my friends drive and they don't have a GPS? It made sense to combine those into one single device. You use them at the same time and always want it on you.

But that isn't how we use tablets and laptops. I see people curling up on the couch with a tablet, reading a book or watching video or playing a game. Their laptop is at their desk, in their bag, on the table. Heck, I do that. I can't do that with a tablet that is huge and heavy like the Surface Pro 3. Imagine holding up the Surface Pro 3 to read an eBook like you would read an eBook on an iPad Air or mini or any tablet smaller than or equal to 10". Yea, good luck with that. I'll stick to my $200 Nexus 7 or iPad Air/mini. I have friends who buy their kids iPads/tablets. iPads are also big in school settings. Tablets and laptops aren't used by the same group of people. I bought my Mom an iPad. I won't buy her a Surface. Way too complicated, not to mention expensive. Tablets and laptops do share a common user group... BUT that common user group isn't a majority. It's a niche.

Imagine using the Surface Pro 3 as a laptop. As if Windows 8 isn't God awful already... imagine fiddling with the kickstand adjusting the angle. I adjust the angle on my MacBook Air. It just takes a finger or two. Not so with the Surface Pro 3.

I imagine the Surface Pro 3 will capture a niche market. But it won't replace the laptop OR tablet for many people.

Note: The pen... will go unused by a lot of people. Just like how it's been in existence for so many years (look at Wacom) but most people today don't use them. By most, I mean go to any Starbucks or library or workplace and count how many people are using them. Apart from companies that hire graphic artists and such, most people don't use them. Don't get me wrong, the pen is pretty cool. It's useful for many applications, but those applications are niche.

No one is going to be using a Surface to do serious photo editing and graphic design work. They will need a real laptop or better.