All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

[HenryDJP]

Do you use Windows 8? While not perfect 8.1 is a big update and brings a lot of functionality. I use it everyday and find it a very stable OS. Please quantify what exactly is a mess with windows 8.1.

I'm not saying Windows "8.1" in general is a big mess, I'm referring to the metro UI. That's still the same. Some of the things that I just don't care for is the way Windows 8 handles PDF's. Taking you off the desktop into a full screen that's complicated to get out of. To read PDF's on the desktop I have to install a 3rd party PDF reader such as Adobe. That's back to Windows 7 then. On the Mac I can use Apple's Preview app and read PDF's right on the desktop.

There are many little things I don't care for on Windows 8/8.1. It's all the same when it comes to Metro.
I'm all for change but when change hinders workflow then it's not good change.

This is exactly just ONE of the reasons I didn't get an Xbox ONE, but rather I bought a PS4. I didn't want to deal with the Windows 8 UI. My buddy has an XBOX ONE and he hates the Windows 8 Tile UI. I tried it a few times on his Xbox ONE. Annoying and complicated for what is suppose to be a gaming system.

 

[temna]

Hey, that's cool with me. Not everyone likes The Mac OS. I really, really liked windows XP and windows 7 wasn't too bad. Just don't care for windows 8 though.

Classic Shell saves the day there..

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I'm not saying Windows "8.1" in general is a big mess, I'm referring to the metro UI. That's still the same. Some of the things that I just don't care for is the way Windows 8 handles PDF's. Taking you off the desktop into a full screen that's complicated to get out of. To read PDF's on the desktop I have to install a 3rd party PDF reader such as Adobe. That's back to Windows 7 then. On the Mac I can use Apple's Preview app and read PDF's right on the desktop.

There are many little things I don't care for on Windows 8/8.1. It's all the same when it comes to Metro.
I'm all for change but when change hinders workflow then it's not good change.

This is exactly just ONE of the reasons I didn't get an Xbox ONE, but rather I bought a PS4. I didn't want to deal with the Windows 8 UI. My buddy has an XBOX ONE and he hates the Windows 8 Tile UI. I tried it a few times on his Xbox ONE. Annoying and complicated for what is suppose to be a gaming system.

See above...

 

[Chrysaor]

I'm not saying Windows "8.1" in general is a big mess, I'm referring to the metro UI. That's still the same. Some of the things that I just don't care for is the way Windows 8 handles PDF's. Taking you off the desktop into a full screen that's complicated to get out of. To read PDF's on the desktop I have to install a 3rd party PDF reader such as Adobe. That's back to Windows 7 then. On the Mac I can use Apple's Preview app and read PDF's right on the desktop.

Windows 7 doesn't even come with a PDF reader, so you have to install one anyway. So you are complaining about Windows 8 comes with a PDF reader, rather than nothing? It doesn't make sense.

This is exactly just ONE of the reasons I didn't get an Xbox ONE, but rather I bought a PS4. I didn't want to deal with the Windows 8 UI. My buddy has an XBOX ONE and he hates the Windows 8 Tile UI. I tried it a few times on his Xbox ONE. Annoying and complicated for what is suppose to be a gaming system.

How do you even have to deal with UI when playing games? Put the game disc in, or click on the pinned icon and play. That's it. No dealing with UI. You are complaining just to complain.

 

[Booji]

AND??? What so special about that. I just saw a nice Sony hybrid tablet/laptop yesterday with pen running Windows 8. It's okay. Not sweeping the industry. Just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make it extraordinary. On the same hand, just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make something junk either but in this case there's nothing extra special about the Surface Pro 3 that will sweep the nation. It's a nice device that can be a solution for the niche business customer but I can't see this getting into the hands of the masses which is where it needs to be in order for it to survive.

Just understand that this is not a pun but a serious point. When a company (Microsoft) touts the kickstand's ability to now pivot the screen more flat than before (which is something that should've been done in the first place. Doesn't require any real innovation to do that) that just shows there wasn't a whole lot to brag about with this new machine. They also spent 90% of their keynote about Apple. Nothing wrong with comparisons against the competition, Apple does that too but to spend near the entire keynote comparing the Surface Pro 3 to the MacBook Air just shows the Surface Pro 3 doesn't have enough selling power on its own.
I'll even go as far as throwing Samsung out there that they don't spend much (if any) time comparing their product to the competition during their keynotes.

From my observation, the reason some people are applauding this device is not because it's so amazing but it's because Microsoft has been putting loser devices in the past few years and the SP3 is one of the better things they have put out but there's nothing original about it, nothing extra special, Windows 8 has not been highly accepted (think China Republic) and as I mentioned there are other hybrid Windows 8 tablets to choose from and they haven't been successful enough to reach the masses. Just my opinion but Microsoft needs to go back to what they do best, making software.

I'm a Mac convert, but not a Microsoft hater. I rely on both - Mac for personal and Windows for work. While I love my MacBook Air (I have two for no other reason than I love both the 11" and 13" and can stand to part with one!)

I do think Microsoft is really turning the corner. Its not that long since Nadella has been at the helm and you can really see the difference.

Yes, RT was a flop as well as Surface Pro 1. Surface Pro 2 was almost there, but I think with the incremental improvements, Surface 3 is finally there with the right combination of price point, weight and power in a gorgeous form factor.

I think in the future, there will be a lot of interesting things coming from Microsoft. I'm waiting for the first crop of Windows Bing low cost tablets to come out. The idea of a full function PC OS on a 7" tablet sounds really interesting.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

100% concur. It's a niche market. Microsoft is trying to keep Windows alive when it's past it's prime in the consumer world. Folks now want simplicity and many don't have computers at home. They use tablets and phones as their computer. True story!

Who are they targeting with this device? Business folks? Not sure it's compelling enough to make a difference this time around either.

You are wright most of the people don't need a computer, they need communication/media device,
and for that a tablet is perfect, lets live the computer to those that really need it.

 

[HenryDJP]

Windows 7 doesn't even come with a PDF reader, so you have to install one anyway. So you are complaining about Windows 8 comes with a PDF reader, rather than nothing? It doesn't make sense.



How do you even have to deal with UI when playing games? Put the game disc in, or click on the pinned icon and play. That's it. No dealing with UI. You are complaining just to complain.

You didn't even read my post, but rather you felt the need to scold me over an operating system. Do you work for Microsoft?

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Classic Shell saves the day there..

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See above...

Exactly. In other words since Microsoft doesn't know how to make an OS with features that don't work against their customers then their customers need to either avoid metro or find hacks to help avoid it.

I just love how some people accept Microsoft for their foolishness but if this were Apple that made OS X like Windows 8 metro then this forum would throw the biggest hissy fit. And rather than looking for work arounds (like they would be happy to go through the trouble with Windows) they rather throw acid in Apple's face and make multiple threads complaining nonstop about how Apple ruined their life.

 

[midnightvii]

Go buy a Surface. Use it as your laptop and tablet for a few months. If you still think Apple needs to come out with a rebuttal, come back and tell us then.

I did. My wife told me I should get Macbook Pro but I went ahead and got Surface Pro2 (512GB 8gig of RAM) anyways. 5 months with it and i am not happy. I bought it because it can run Photoshop and drawing programs. But, The screen resolution is too high for the screen size and I can't use it without aching my eyes. Photoshop does this wacky thing when the pen move away from the drawing screen. The menus are tiny and difficult to see. I hear that there is a hack in registry to make the menus bigger but never try it.

ALSO, Microsoft Store, there are too many clones of useless apps.

It displays images nicely but It is a very expensive frame.

Now I am saving up for Macbook Pro this year. It was a real expensive lesson. Surface3 looks great and the screen size I like. But I don't have any more desire to get it anymore. If I want to draw! stay home...

 

[sracer]

I just love how some people accept Microsoft for their foolishness but if this were Apple that made OS X like Windows 8 metro then this forum would throw the biggest hissy fit. And rather than looking for work arounds (like they would be happy to go through the trouble with Windows) they rather throw acid in Apple's face and make multiple threads complaining nonstop about how Apple ruined their life.

Every platform has their fanboys. The challenge for the rest of us is that we end up getting slammed by all sides. I have simultaneously been called an Apple iSheep and Microsoft apologist. LOL and so it goes.

 

[s2mikey]

Classic Shell saves the day there..

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See above...

Yep, we do run that shell thing here at work on test system s we have to use. But, it's annoying to think I have to run a third party app to get windows to behave the way I want I to. Not my thing.

IMO, Microsoft is so worried and concerned about mobile computing that they are just chucking everything they have at their desktop OS to make it mobile friendly when they'd be better off keeping it all separate like apple does with iOS and OSX.

 

[nomanstool]

AND??? What so special about that. I just saw a nice Sony hybrid tablet/laptop yesterday with pen running Windows 8. It's okay. Not sweeping the industry. Just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make it extraordinary. On the same hand, just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make something junk either but in this case there's nothing extra special about the Surface Pro 3 that will sweep the nation. It's a nice device that can be a solution for the niche business customer but I can't see this getting into the hands of the masses which is where it needs to be in order for it to survive.

Please mind you they put a very powerful chip on SP3 an i7, the sony hybrid you're talking about runs on either ARM or entry level Intel processor.

It's about 40% lighter than the macbook air 13" and actually thinner. It has better screen (High DPI). And the macbook Air is currently up there in the top when it comes to ultra books being both powerful and thin. And Microsoft just raised the bar! It just so happen that it functions as a tablet as well. I've been using Macs for years now, heck I'm even excited.

I myself in the market of upgrading my laptop, and I was disheartened by the lack of retina for macbook air. SP3 may be my next laptop. Unless I see something I like in June 2

 

[Night Spring]

It's about 40% lighter than the macbook air 13" and actually thinner.

Yes, but it has no keyboard. All the reviews I've seen says the Type Cover is not as good to type on as a regular keyboard. Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement in getting it as thin as they did, but you do give up something in order to get that thinness.

 

[sracer]

Yes, but it has no keyboard. All the reviews I've seen says the Type Cover is not as good to type on as a regular keyboard. Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement in getting it as thin as they did, but you do give up something in order to get that thinness.

It is a subjective thing. I have a TypeCover2 for my Surface 2 and it is the best mobile keyboard (for convenience, portability, and typing feel) I've owned (and I've owned and still own quite a few). For purely typing feel, Apple's bluetooth keyboard beats it out.

The trackpad on the TypeCover2 however is the worst that I've ever experienced.

 

[Charliebird]

Yes, but it has no keyboard. All the reviews I've seen says the Type Cover is not as good to type on as a regular keyboard. Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement in getting it as thin as they did, but you do give up something in order to get that thinness.

I'm pretty disappointed with the reviews. It seems like Microsoft is stuck on an idea and it's just not working. Maybe they should give up on the whole kickstand idea and create a removable keyboard dock.

 

[HenryDJP]

Please mind you they put a very powerful chip on SP3 an i7, the sony hybrid you're talking about runs on either ARM or entry level Intel processor.

It's about 40% lighter than the macbook air 13" and actually thinner. It has better screen (High DPI). And the macbook Air is currently up there in the top when it comes to ultra books being both powerful and thin. And Microsoft just raised the bar! It just so happen that it functions as a tablet as well. I've been using Macs for years now, heck I'm even excited.

Back to 1995 where all techies did for years is boast about specs on Windows machines and put down Apple for never coming close. Didn't stop Apple's MacBooks and iMac from being widely successful. So successful that Microsoft has to compare their new products to only Apple's in order to sell it. Only spec whores care about the i7 vs. ARM processor or the DPI of the screen. Even many people that would see the benefits of using a tablet with a pen don't know a damn thing about what an i7 is or an ARM processor so that's not really a big seller for the Surface Pro 3.
If you truly think the weight differences of the Macbook Air against the Surface Pro 3 would be enough to get people to jump off of OS X and onto a Windows Sub-Tablet then you're only thinking in the mind of a techie and not a real consumer. Microsoft raised it's own bar, not the bar in the industry.
Like I said, the Surface Pro 3 seems to be a fairly nice device but it is by no means an industry leader and it won't be unless Microsoft can get this into the hands of the masses and unfortunately this is a niche product.

 

[nomanstool]

Yes, but it has no keyboard. All the reviews I've seen says the Type Cover is not as good to type on as a regular keyboard. Not to take away from Microsoft's achievement in getting it as thin as they did, but you do give up something in order to get that thinness.

You do realize that the new type cover keyboard is even thinner and lighter than the previous generation right? even with the keyboard its still lighter than, instead of 40% lighter its will go down around 25% lighter . Now given that its lighter than the macbook air, microsoft's whole point is that SP3 can also replace your tablet, while also being an ultrabook. So if you add or factor in an iPad's weight then you get around 50% of savings, and with one device.

Here's an interesting bit that I found on my twitter someone posted this:

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Back to 1995 where all techies did for years is boast about specs on Windows machines and put down Apple for never coming close. Didn't stop Apple's MacBooks and iMac from being widely successful. So successful that Microsoft has to compare their new products to only Apple's in order to sell it. Only spec whores care about the i7 vs. ARM processor or the DPI of the screen. Even many people that would see the benefits of using a tablet with a pen don't know a damn thing about what an i7 is or an ARM processor so that's not really a big seller for the Surface Pro 3.
If you truly think the weight differences of the Macbook Air against the Surface Pro 3 would be enough to get people to jump off of OS X and onto a Windows Sub-Tablet then you're only thinking in the mind of a techie and not a real consumer. Microsoft raised it's own bar, not the bar in the industry.
Like I said, the Surface Pro 3 seems to be a fairly nice device but it is by no means an industry leader and it won't be unless Microsoft can get this into the hands of the masses and unfortunately this is a niche product.

Lol. If you're a professional you would care about specs. Apple have been advanced and very much ahead of the game for years. They got a sweet deal with intel having early access to the processors. Saying Apple doesn't participate in spec wars is highly outrageous. They were pretty ahead with their game with processor specs, battery, ssd, screen and yes even how thin and how light their product is.

Right now, for people buying an ultrabook; what they want is power. It also needs to be thin and light. SP3 is the thinnest and lightest core i7 ultrabook in the market right now. That's a very big deal. If you can't see it pass that then I hope this video of David Pogue would enlighten you:

David Pogue iPad vs Surface Pro 3, which one comes out on top?

 

[Night Spring]

You do realize that the new type cover keyboard is even thinner and lighter than the previous generation right? even with the keyboard its still lighter than, instead of 40% lighter its will go down around 25% lighter

I did mention the Type Cover in my post -- please go back and read it again.

But in case it wasn't clear, I meant that yes, Type Cover plus Surface is still lighter than a MacBook Air, but in exchange for the lighter weight, you get an inferior keyboard.

 

[masterpace]

Just to put things in perspective, I do own a Retina MBP 15, a MBA 11, an iPad Air and a Surface Pro 2. I've bought a Surface Pro 2 mainly because of the Wacom pen support. During the new managers seminars, I've found it valuable for note taking, etc. I can use Excel for finance spreadsheets or Microsoft Project on the Surface Pro although I could do the same on the MacBook Air.

From my experience, Surface Pro is a handicaped notebook with limited laptop capabilities. Their Type Cover, which works both as a keyboard and cover, works only on a flat surface. Battery life is much lower than advertised. I've done pretty much all kinds of optimizations to save battery, as an IT manager. On average, I can barely get more than five hours of work on "normal" settings. Any MacBook Air would do much better. Even the retina MacBook Pro, which has a much better screen and functionality would blow away the Surface.

So, Surface Pro 3 has just been released? As I said, and I'll repeat, the only reason to buy a Surface Pro is because of pen support. In any other aspects, a MacBook Air blows away any Surface Pro in terms of quality, battery life, name, reliability... And now, MS dropped Wacom support for some reasons: N-Trig is cheaper to licence and its hardware is incorporated into the pen (the screen is not active sensitive like on the Surface Pro 2). In that case, you'll be better served having your iPad Air and some active stylus. It's the same as the N-Trig and you keep the much slender iPad.

IPad has Pages, which is more advanced than Word, as far as my experience goes. And, it's free. And, with active stylus options on the iPad, it can beat a Surface Pro out the water. And, assuming you need to work with MS Project files, what about Bootcamp on that nice MacBook Air?

 

[TitanTiger]

I think the response to it is to continue selling about 100 times more iPads than Surfaces.

 

[masterpace]

I think the response to it is to continue selling about 100 times more iPads than Surfaces.

You're right tiger! On top of that, MS going to be plagued with huge quality assurance and quality control issues. They change form factor, screen, technology, within a few months. They move from Wacom to N-Trigs for their pen input. So many changes. They're gonna get so much QA issues too.

 

[rowspaxe]

... And now, MS dropped Wacom support for some reasons: N-Trig is cheaper to licence and its hardware is incorporated into the pen (the screen is not active sensitive like on the Surface Pro 2). In that case, you'll be better served having your iPad Air and some active stylus. It's the same as the N-Trig and you keep the much slender iPad.

So many factual errors in one post: you must be a tech journalist.

 

[iamMacPerson]

Take the training wheels off of iOS and unlock all the accessability and features that are already there but hidden and locked away from the end user. Make it truly OSX with a touch UI layered over it, like they have been telling us since the original iPhone. Jailbreakers know it is a fully fledged OS. It wouldn't even have to look any different. Just give us apps to access the file system, unlock full desktop style multitasking with virtual memory and paging.

You have to understand, yes the iPhone runs a fully fledged OS, but its not full OS X. It never has been. When Steve said that iPhone ran OS X he meant that it runs the basis of OS X, Darwin, the kernel. Really, this means iOS is actually BSD-UNIX based like OS X. If you notice, when an iPhone crashes, it crashes a lot like an OS X Kernel Panic.

Now, what Apple could do is run Intel apps on ARM, which I think might bring an ARM based MBA. When Apple first switched to Intel, they offered Rosetta which would allow you to run PowerPC apps on Intel. Same thing could be done for Intel apps on ARM which would put OS X on ARM YEARS ahead of Windows RT since you can run Intel apps on it. It would need faster processors though; the current A7 runs about the same speed as the C2D included in the 13" 2010 MBP.

 

[AdonisSMU]

you didn't even read my post, but rather you felt the need to scold me over an operating system. Do you work for microsoft?

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exactly. In other words since microsoft doesn't know how to make an os with features that don't work against their customers then their customers need to either avoid metro or find hacks to help avoid it.

I just love how some people accept microsoft for their foolishness but if this were apple that made os x like windows 8 metro then this forum would throw the biggest hissy fit. And rather than looking for work arounds (like they would be happy to go through the trouble with windows) they rather throw acid in apple's face and make multiple threads complaining nonstop about how apple ruined their life.

gasp!

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So many factual errors in one post: you must be a tech journalist.

What are they?

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You do realize that the new type cover keyboard is even thinner and lighter than the previous generation right? even with the keyboard its still lighter than, instead of 40% lighter its will go down around 25% lighter . Now given that its lighter than the macbook air, microsoft's whole point is that SP3 can also replace your tablet, while also being an ultrabook. So if you add or factor in an iPad's weight then you get around 50% of savings, and with one device.

Here's an interesting bit that I found on my twitter someone posted this:
Image



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Lol. If you're a professional you would care about specs. Apple have been advanced and very much ahead of the game for years. They got a sweet deal with intel having early access to the processors. Saying Apple doesn't participate in spec wars is highly outrageous. They were pretty ahead with their game with processor specs, battery, ssd, screen and yes even how thin and how light their product is.

Right now, for people buying an ultrabook; what they want is power. It also needs to be thin and light. SP3 is the thinnest and lightest core i7 ultrabook in the market right now. That's a very big deal. If you can't see it pass that then I hope this video of David Pogue would enlighten you:

David Pogue iPad vs Surface Pro 3, which one comes out on top?

Ummm first off what is the actual space you can get with your Surface minus the OS. Secondly, why not compare the Surface to the iPad since the 12" surface is designed for desktops first. It doesn't even work as a laptop because well its unusable when on your lap especially with the keyboard? LOL!

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The power and weight - it is just as light and powerful as a MacBook Air, has a better screen, and can function as a tablet.

Its not as powerful as an MBA. Try using Windows 8.1 on a Surface Pro 3 and on an MBA and you will notice the difference.

 

[AdonisSMU]

AND??? What so special about that. I just saw a nice Sony hybrid tablet/laptop yesterday with pen running Windows 8. It's okay. Not sweeping the industry. Just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make it extraordinary. On the same hand, just because Apple isn't doing it doesn't make something junk either but in this case there's nothing extra special about the Surface Pro 3 that will sweep the nation. It's a nice device that can be a solution for the niche business customer but I can't see this getting into the hands of the masses which is where it needs to be in order for it to survive.

Just understand that this is not a pun but a serious point. When a company (Microsoft) touts the kickstand's ability to now pivot the screen more flat than before (which is something that should've been done in the first place. Doesn't require any real innovation to do that) that just shows there wasn't a whole lot to brag about with this new machine. They also spent 90% of their keynote about Apple. Nothing wrong with comparisons against the competition, Apple does that too but to spend near the entire keynote comparing the Surface Pro 3 to the MacBook Air just shows the Surface Pro 3 doesn't have enough selling power on its own.
I'll even go as far as throwing Samsung out there that they don't spend much (if any) time comparing their product to the competition during their keynotes.

From my observation, the reason some people are applauding this device is not because it's so amazing but it's because Microsoft has been putting loser devices in the past few years and the SP3 is one of the better things they have put out but there's nothing original about it, nothing extra special, Windows 8 has not been highly accepted (think China Republic) and as I mentioned there are other hybrid Windows 8 tablets to choose from and they haven't been successful enough to reach the masses. Just my opinion but Microsoft needs to go back to what they do best, making software.

I'm one of those who thinks MSFT is best when its focus is software and not hardware. They got off track when they stopped developing their software in the 00s. Now they are playing catch up with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Why bother putting in 2gb of ram, their hardware and iOS doesn't need it, yet.

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I have seen some of the amazing graphics done on the iPad, so I'm not sure that is a vote against the iPad. I have a Logitech keyboard folio that does an amazing job for extended typing, though I do wish I could sometimes use a mouse with my iPad. As for Flash, honestly, who cares. That and Java are "standards" that are way past their prime and need to go. Playing games? There are tons of great games out there for the iPad. And isn't Adobe's iPad app suite already pretty damn good and just getting better everyday?

The thing is, with a little imagination and the right apps, there really is very little that can't be done on the iPad. And really, to say otherwise is silly. Most people who have said they can't use the iPad for work just haven't given it a fair shake. The few that I have run into that honestly couldn't use it, it was because of custom software requirements.

OMG!!! YES YES YES! Java is GROSS!

 

[barkmonster]

I think Apple are sensible in not mixing a consumption device with a compact laptop. They're for different purposes and to mix them into 1 product makes for a cumbersome tablet or a substandard laptop with a gimmicky touch screen.