Why does everyone hate Lion?

[Joos24]

For someone who claims not to be jumping on me, you sure seem to be well, jumping on me.

If you look at the reviews for pixelmator, you can clearly see five negative reviews directly beneath the main rating. All of them mention the autosave feature (screenshot attached).

I guess we see what we want to see

I'm not jumping on you personally, I'm jumping on your argument which I have full rights to in regards to forum rules. I will continue to do so until you post a valid argument and so far you haven't. Look, why would I have any allegiance to Pixelmator? I don't, but your posting an invalid argument, period.

First, look at the pics, I posted yours, mine and a 3rd one. My pics show the most current ratings of over 1100 ratings and 143 ratings for the most current version with over 6 pages of reviews totally 4.5 stars out of 5. Your pic shows a total of 143 ratings and only 12 ratings for the version (that you are showing) with just over 2 pages of reviews. You said there were 5 negative ratings, that's hardly indicative of a poorly designed product or unhappy customers in regards to Pixelmator's infusion of Versions.

If you're going to show pics of ratings to try and prove your point at least show a newer set of ratings. Looks like yours was shown right after Pixelmator was added to the MAS so it's a completely moot point. My problem with with your post is it's just another FUD spreader with inaccurate proof.

 

[Gomff]

I'm sure they're not lying, but again, they probably haven't "lost" the work either. They just think they did. Not knowing how to revert to a previous version doesn't mean the work is lost, it just means you don't know how it works to get it back.

I suppose there's no way of verifying one way or another whether or not people have lost their work or not. But to me the bigger issue is the change in paradigm with saving work....Firstly it's a forced option with no alternative and secondly some people find it less intuitive than the established way of doing things that has served well for what, 30 years? More even?

When people complain about some features in Lion, the stock response seems to be "You don't have to use it" and if you do have to use it then the answer is along the lines of "Shut up, it's better".

I want to like Lion but the upheaval in switching over from established workflows which have paid bills and put food on the table for years is still too painful. If you just spend all your time on Facebook or surfing, Lion is not really a big change but for some with workflows that have many inter-dependencies across numerous software packages, there are issues.

 

[Gomff]

I'm not jumping on you personally, I'm jumping on your argument which I have full rights to in regards to forum rules. I will continue to do so until you post a valid argument and so far you haven't. Look, why would I have any allegiance to Pixelmator? I don't, but your posting an invalid argument, period.

First, look at the pics, I posted yours, mine and a 3rd one. My pics show the most current ratings of over 1100 ratings and 143 ratings for the most current version with over 6 pages of reviews totally 4.5 stars out of 5. Your pic shows a total of 143 ratings and only 12 ratings for the version (that you are showing) with just over 2 pages of reviews. You said there were 5 negative ratings, that's hardly indicative of a poorly designed product or unhappy customers in regards to Pixelmator's infusion of Versions.

If you're going to show pics of ratings to try and prove your point at least show a newer set of ratings. Looks like yours was shown right after Pixelmator was added to the MAS so it's a completely moot point. My problem with with your post is it's just another FUD spreader with inaccurate proof.

Firstly, the screen shot I posted is the first page I see when I click on Pixelmator in the app store. You demanded I point out the reviews which I was talking about so I did.....Now you're accusing me of twisting things. The image I posted shows that there are 12 reviews for the current version, of which 5 are negative....This is hardly insignificant since the issue in question relates to the changes in saving brought about in Pixelmator version 2. I suggest you get your facts right before foaming at the mouth.

I get that you're a noob here and want to win all your points but really, you're just coming across like someone who gets all bent out of shape when faced with an objective opinion or even one that differs from your own.

 

[Joos24]

Firstly, the screen shot I posted is the first page I see when I click on Pixelmator in the app store. You demanded I point out the reviews which I was talking about so I did.....Now you're accusing me of twisting things. The image I posted shows that there are 12 reviews for the current version, of which 5 are negative....This is hardly insignificant since the issue in question relates to the changes in saving brought about in Pixelmator version 2. I suggest you get your facts right before foaming at the mouth.

I get that you're a noob here and want to win all your points but really, you're just coming across like someone who gets all bent out of shape when faced with an objective opinion or even one that differs from your own.

Noob? I've been using Macs for over 14 years. You're not being honest firstly. When you click on Pixelmator in the MAS you don't get the screen you showed, you get the one I showed. You've already lost credibility.

 

[KnightWRX]

I suppose there's no way of verifying one way or another whether or not people have lost their work or not. But to me the bigger issue is the change in paradigm with saving work....Firstly it's a forced option with no alternative and secondly some people find it less intuitive than the established way of doing things that has served well for what, 30 years? More even?

It's not less intuitive, unless you don't know what intuitive means. Save As, Open, Save has quite the steep learning curve. We're just so used to it that we don't feel the need to look for something better.

But take a complete computer neophyte (someone that wouldn't be using Pixelmator to begin with) and frankly, file management is a complicated mess for them. My Step father has about 30 versions of the same Excel file, all 100% identical, on his desktop, with different file names. When I ask him what all of that is, he has no clue but doesn't want to delete them because he's afraid of losing something.

When people complain about some features in Lion, the stock response seems to be "You don't have to use it" and if you do have to use it then the answer is along the lines of "Shut up, it's better".

It might be better, it might not be. It's different that's for sure. The problem is most people right now are complaining before giving it a chance. Lion broke a lot of workflows and changed a lot of behaviors. People are resistant to change and don't want to adapt and frankly, that's their perogative.

I only take issue with people who claim their way was the "best" way and now "Lion broke it and it sucks" and state so as a 100% proven fact that applies to everyone. Face it, their reality is not shared by all. I happen to like a lot of the Lion changes, other changes I don't like but I managed to revert them to Snow Leopard's behavior just fine and other change is just easy to ignore.

I want to like Lion but the upheaval in switching over from established workflows which have paid bills and put food on the table for years is still too painful. If you just spend all your time on Facebook or surfing, Lion is not really a big change but for some with workflows that have many inter-dependencies across numerous software packages, there are issues.

And being a Unix systems administrator and hobbiest programmer, I happen to find all the changes for the better for me, and the options to control the changes that aren't to be quite satisfactory.

YMMV. In the end, this is no "Vista", this is Lion. A big change that not everyone wants to adapt to or has inclination to adapt to.

 

[Gomff]

When you click on Pixelmator in the MAS you don't get the screen you showed, you get the one I showed. You've already lost credibility.

In the UK, when you click on Pixelmator, you get the screen I captured...I did it today and then checked (twice) to make sure I wasn't mistaken.

If I'm looking for verification of my credibility (which by the way, I'm not), I'm sure I can do better than some anonymous Joe who's been a member on these forums for little over a month, and who seems to have spent most of that time vociferously defending Lion.....

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It's not less intuitive, unless you don't know what intuitive means. Save As, Open, Save has quite the steep learning curve. We're just so used to it that we don't feel the need to look for something better.

But take a complete computer neophyte (someone that wouldn't be using Pixelmator to begin with) and frankly, file management is a complicated mess for them. My Step father has about 30 versions of the same Excel file, all 100% identical, on his desktop, with different file names. When I ask him what all of that is, he has no clue but doesn't want to delete them because he's afraid of losing something.



It might be better, it might not be. It's different that's for sure. The problem is most people right now are complaining before giving it a chance. Lion broke a lot of workflows and changed a lot of behaviors. People are resistant to change and don't want to adapt and frankly, that's their perogative.

I only take issue with people who claim their way was the "best" way and now "Lion broke it and it sucks" and state so as a 100% proven fact that applies to everyone. Face it, their reality is not shared by all. I happen to like a lot of the Lion changes, other changes I don't like but I managed to revert them to Snow Leopard's behavior just fine and other change is just easy to ignore.



And being a Unix systems administrator and hobbiest programmer, I happen to find all the changes for the better for me, and the options to control the changes that aren't to be quite satisfactory.

YMMV. In the end, this is no "Vista", this is Lion. A big change that not everyone wants to adapt to or has inclination to adapt to.

I'm fine with making saving "easier" for neophytes....But I get how save & save as work and would like control over when, how and what name I give to anything I save thanks. I'm not saying there isn't a place for versions but I am saying I'd like the choice not to use it.

I suspect that if the option to switch off versioning was available, quite a large number of proficient computer users would do so....Look at "Natural" scrolling.....Why would I want to have a way of scrolling on my Mac that is different to anything else that isn't a Mac? That just makes life more complex & annoying.

If Lion is working out for you then great. But that doesn't mean it's working out for everyone else as well is all I'm saying. Options to turn off some things would go a long way to smoothing things out.

 

[KnightWRX]

I'm fine with making saving "easier" for neophytes....But I get how save & save as work and would like control over when, how and what name I give to anything I save thanks. I'm not saying there isn't a place for versions but I am saying I'd like the choice not to use it.

You still do. Maybe you just don't know how.

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If Lion is working out for you then great. But that doesn't mean it's working out for everyone else as well is all I'm saying. Options to turn off some things would go a long way to smoothing things out.

We're saying the same thing really. I don't see where you find we are not agreeing about this. The only difference is I tend to have a positive attitude towards it, you seem to have preferred the negative road.

 

[Gomff]

We're saying the same thing really. I don't see where you find we are not agreeing about this. The only difference is I tend to have a positive attitude towards it, you seem to have preferred the negative road.

You may be right.

 

[Mackilroy]

If I'm looking for verification of my credibility (which by the way, I'm not), I'm sure I can do better than some anonymous Joe who's been a member on these forums for little over a month, and who seems to have spent most of that time vociferously defending Lion.....

No worse than the people who sign up to vociferously spread FUD about Lion or otherwise, of whom there are many.

 

[fivenotrump]

we don't

 

[Gomff]

No worse than the people who sign up to vociferously spread FUD about Lion or otherwise, of whom there are many.

What's your point exactly?

The worst of course are the ones who don't even read what someone has said, but just pile in regardless

 

[jameslmoser]

Uh ? Works fine here. Select the desktop with the app, and then drag it to another desktop.

A new way to do things! That's basically what Lion is like I stated previously. What you see as "bugs" are actually just unimplemented features that might never get implemented.

No, you CAN'T. In MC, if you want an app from another desktop, you have to move to that desktop... then put the app in your previous desktop, then change back. In spaces you could just drag the app into any desktop you wanted.

Hell, you could move an entire desktop anywhere you wanted. They at least added that to mission control, but again it was half @ss3d. Why can't you move the first one??

Your work arounds and potential possible future implementations and possible bugs are not even close to having the same functionality or the same level of efficiency. If by "new way of doing things" you mean "less efficient and more steps", well then I guess you might be right there.

 

[McGiord]

To the OP: not everyone hates Lion.

Using a car example:
I don't hate my car, but I would like to be able to add features for free, like I can with my Mac. No matter what OS I am using I always can do what I want with it.

To the ping pong players: please play in another court.

 

[jameslmoser]

You still do. Maybe you just don't know how.

Here is another example of how your work arounds are not the same thing, and take longer... In order to do something as simple as "Save As..", you have to duplicate, then rename it. Then if you want to keep working on the new one you created (which is the pretty standard workflow when you create a new version of something) you have to close your current one and open the new one. How is that in anyway as efficient?

 

[Krazy Bill]

Save As, Open, Save has quite the steep learning curve.

Indeed. Duplicate, Export, Unlock... answering endless pop up dialogs when all you want to do is change something... that's much more "intuitive".

Laughed so hard had to change my shorts.

 

[jameslmoser]

No worse than the people who sign up to vociferously spread FUD about Lion or otherwise, of whom there are many.

People come here to seek help with problems, and in Lion "there are many". Almost all of their complaints are echoed by many people. Thats not FUD.

 

[63dot]

I understand where some things are flawed. I miss the original Expose over Mission Control, but it's not like you were forced to have it. Just downgrade! I keep seeing a lot of people constantly complaining about Lion and how Snow Leopard is a lot better, but didn't everyone complain about Snow Leopard when it came out? I'm just curious about all the Lion hate. It works well.

I think from the posts in the past, Lion is much more well accepted than Leopard or Snow Leopard was at their debut. Snow Leopard works like a charm on a newer high end iMac or Mac Pro, up from Tiger, but when put on a Mac Mini, it's really sluggish and hangs a lot.

The only reason I have not put Lion on an older Mac mini is that if that computer has a hard time with the eye candy of Snow Leopard, it may really hang up with Lion.

That being said, I just have to get it and see. I miss the very quick response of Tiger with my three Macs which made the work effortless and make me forget I was using a computer. With Snow Leopard, I feel like I am back in Windows 98 (waiting) even though it looks really great.

My guess is that Lion is as large a departure from the Leopards in a way that the Leopards was a big jump from Tiger. The hope is for a universal iOS type of operating system which can be simple yet powerful. We all know Microsoft is going this way and I hope we get there first. But if even Microsoft unites all devices and computers with a common operating system, we will probably do it more elegantly.

 

[Mackilroy]

Indeed. Duplicate, Export, Unlock... answering endless pop up dialogs when all you want to do is change something... that's much more "intuitive".

Laughed so hard had to change my shorts.

I've never once had to do that. I duplicated and renamed it, which cuts out your two other steps. Try again.

People come here to seek help with problems, and in Lion "there are many". Almost all of their complaints are echoed by many people. Thats not FUD.

The vast majority of complaining with Lion is complaining that it's different. That's a preference, not a genuine problem.

 

[jameslmoser]

I've never once had to do that. I duplicated and renamed it, which cuts out your two other steps. Try again.


The vast majority of complaining with Lion is complaining that it's different. That's a preference, not a genuine problem.

You also have to open the new document. Even if it was 2 steps, thats more than just Save As...

Even if it was just different (and its not) its still obviously a problem for a lot of people. Different doesn't mean "better".

Its like your saying as long as Apple just changes something about their new OS its better, doesn't matter what they did, its just different so no one should have any problems with it.

 

[Gomff]

People come here to seek help with problems, and in Lion "there are many". Almost all of their complaints are echoed by many people. Thats not FUD.

Indeed, sadly this is an environment where criticism of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes.

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to like & own numeorus Apple products and yet still be critical of some aspects of their design.

 

[Mackilroy]

You also have to open the new document. Even if it was 2 steps, thats more than just Save As...

Even if it was just different (and its not) its still obviously a problem for a lot of people. Different doesn't mean "better".

Its like your saying as long as Apple just changes something about their new OS its better, doesn't matter what they did, its just different so no one should have any problems with it.

No, I don't, because when I'm duplicating a document it's at the end of my workflow. Different doesn't mean worse, either. Sometimes something is simply different. You're putting words in my mouth.

If someone has a problem with the way Lion changes their workflow, then they have a few options: don't use it and go back to Snow Leopard; figure out how to adapt to the way Lion works; convince Apple to change Lion to make it work more like Snow Leopard, and there's undoubtedly others too. I'm all for someone trying any and all of these paths – where, exactly, is that saying that no one should have any problems?

Indeed, sadly this is an environment where criticism of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes.

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to like & own numeorus Apple products and yet still be critical of some aspects of their design.

It's also an environment where oftentimes where praise of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes. There isn't one side to every argument, no matter how much anyone wishes there was.

Contrary to popular belief, it is quite possible to like and own numerous Apple products and yet still be flexible enough to roll with the changes or work to convince Apple to change.

 

[rocknblogger]

Indeed, sadly this is an environment where criticism of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes.

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to like & own numeorus Apple products and yet still be critical of some aspects of their design.

This is true but please keep in mind that if I say that I've had no or minimal problems with Lion, it doesn't mean I'm defending Apple. Only posting my experience and nothing more.

 

[jameslmoser]

No, I don't, because when I'm duplicating a document it's at the end of my workflow. Different doesn't mean worse, either. Sometimes something is simply different. You're putting words in my mouth.

If someone has a problem with the way Lion changes their workflow, then they have a few options: don't use it and go back to Snow Leopard; figure out how to adapt to the way Lion works; convince Apple to change Lion to make it work more like Snow Leopard, and there's undoubtedly others too. I'm all for someone trying any and all of these paths – where, exactly, is that saying that no one should have any problems?


It's also an environment where oftentimes where praise of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes. There isn't one side to every argument, no matter how much anyone wishes there was.

Contrary to popular belief, it is quite possible to like and own numerous Apple products and yet still be flexible enough to roll with the changes or work to convince Apple to change.

Now your just not making any sense. I never put any words in your mouth.

And If you create something new at the end of your workflow, that is very different from most. Creating something new is usually how you start a work flow.

I never said different is always worse, why would anyone need help with or find a problem with a change that was better? There are a few things Lion did do better, like iChat with Yahoo Messenger support and a unified contact window. That was a change for the better. I haven't seen anyone complain about that.

Your theory that all these changes are just different and thats the only reason people are complaining is wrong. They have every right to voice their opinion or frustration and hope other people validate their concerns or on occasion have an actual workable solution for them. If there were really valid workable solutions to the changes in Lion, do you really think 6 months after the release people would still be complaining about it to this extent?

There is no point in arguing with you. You don't have any actual solutions, just work arounds. Your not offering any new arguements, just repeating yourself and insinuating that everyone who doesn't like Lion is just lazy and doesn't want to be bothered with learning something different.

As far as our "Options" (thats all most of us really want, but they were taken away from us by the way) I am still with Snow Leopard, but if I want to continue using my MobileMe account come June, I DON'T have that option. If I want to buy a new mac (and I do, I would love the new air with the back lit keyboard) I DON'T have the option of using Snow Leopard on it.

 

[Gomff]

Contrary to popular belief, it is quite possible to like and own numerous Apple products and yet still be flexible enough to roll with the changes

And as I've said plenty of times already, I've tried to adjust to those changes as have many other people. My bill for rolling with the changes currently runs at £500 in software updates and counting.....Yet still I find myself needing to boot to Snow Leopard the majority of the time when push comes to shove. There are some things that you can't work around. I'm no Apple hater....I have bought & use plenty of their devices and have done for years.....That doesn't mean I shouldn't speak out when I feel something hasn't been done right.....in fact I think it gives me the authority to do so.

or work to convince Apple to change.

Because that's worked well in the past

 

[Joos24]

People come here to seek help with problems, and in Lion "there are many". Almost all of their complaints are echoed by many people. Thats not FUD.

Hah, I rarely see anyone come to the Lion forum asking for help. It's usually the usual complaining about changes that were made. Voicing THEIR opinion what they feel Apple has done wrong because they don't like the new system. More trolling here than asking for help.
It would certainly be a perfect world if most of the new threads were more like, "Help, I'm having trouble understanding the new Lion system, could someone give me some tips?" That would be a better question but it hardly happens here.

It's also an environment where oftentimes where praise of anything Apple does is met with instant derision and downvotes. There isn't one side to every argument, no matter how much anyone wishes there was.

Exactly!!! Thank you! I just love how rude people will put you down by name-calling for showing any amount of praise towards Lion and then complain for getting downrated for them criticizing Lion.

You're not allowed to say you're not having problems with the system because that would mean you're lying here. According to the FUD spreaders if they are having problems the system is broken.