Why is there a Mac truck sized hole in the Apple desktop product line?

[MikeL]

Opinions are irrelivant. Apple dictates your needs. You are satisfied.

Such wit and originality. Oh, if only I could whine as you do...

I do wish that there was a perfect computer made for me. Sometimes, there has been. Over twenty-plus years of computing has taught me that it just isn't always the case, though. So I buy what meets my needs. Sometimes that has meant spending more than I think I should have to, and getting capabilities that are superfluous to my needs. It's hardly the end of the world.

Products will change. Five years from now, perhaps there'll be something that fits the exact bill you're looking for. Enjoy those moments, if you can. Otherwise... whine on.

 

[toru173]

Such wit and originality. Oh, if only I could whine as you do...

I do wish that there was a perfect computer made for me. Sometimes, there has been. Over twenty-plus years of computing has taught me that it just isn't always the case, though. So I buy what meets my needs. Sometimes that has meant spending more than I think I should have to, and getting capabilities that are superfluous to my needs. It's hardly the end of the world.

Products will change. Five years from now, perhaps there'll be something that fits the exact bill you're looking for. Enjoy those moments, if you can. Otherwise... whine on.

I was hardly whining. I thought it amusing that Apple, who pioneered the "Think Different" campain, now gives us very little free thought. A private joke, if you will.

I have learned to shift from computer to computer because of the transient nature of technology that you were talking about. My favourite programs have versions for Windows, Mac and Linux, and I'm fairly familiar with all three operating systems. I can use what I need when I need it.

If you'd read this thread (who has? It's far too long) you'd see that I built my own xMac. I have what I want, it just didn't come from Apple.

 

[takao]

Such wit and originality. Oh, if only I could whine as you do...

I do wish that there was a perfect computer made for me. Sometimes, there has been. Over twenty-plus years of computing has taught me that it just isn't always the case, though. So I buy what meets my needs. Sometimes that has meant spending more than I think I should have to, and getting capabilities that are superfluous to my needs. It's hardly the end of the world.

Products will change. Five years from now, perhaps there'll be something that fits the exact bill you're looking for. Enjoy those moments, if you can. Otherwise... whine on.

too bad on the PC side i can get exactly the hardware which fits my needs without having to compromise

personal note: after having spend an afternoon configuring PC hardware in a browser and researching a lot i'm surprised how much performance you can get for so little money for 550 bucks you can get a good case with lots of cooling power and a PSU with some free capacity, an intel E2160 with 1.8 ghz which can go up to 3 ghz with the boxed cooler (which means it can beat out the E6750 in some cases .. and that for 70 bucks boxed !!), 2GB of fast GeIL memory, seagate 250 GB sata ,gigabyte mainboard with firewire, sata II raid and compatible to the next 45nm cpus for upgrading and to top it off a ati x1950 pro for 115 bucks ...
and that's if you want upgradability .. if you choose a lesser mainboard and psu you can easily keep the price under 500 for the hardware which still would beat out all macs below 2000 euro in terms of cpu and 3d performance

 

[Pressure]

too bad on the PC side i can get exactly the hardware which fits my needs without having to compromise

personal note: after having spend an afternoon configuring PC hardware in a browser and researching a lot i'm surprised how much performance you can get for so little money for 550 bucks you can get a good case with lots of cooling power and a PSU with some free capacity, an intel E2160 with 1.8 ghz which can go up to 3 ghz with the boxed cooler (which means it can beat out the E6750 in some cases .. and that for 70 bucks boxed !!), 2GB of fast GeIL memory, seagate 250 GB sata ,gigabyte mainboard with firewire, sata II raid and compatible to the next 45nm cpus for upgrading and to top it off a ati x1950 pro for 115 bucks ...
and that's if you want upgradability .. if you choose a lesser mainboard and psu you can easily keep the price under 500 for the hardware which still would beat out all macs below 2000 euro in terms of cpu and 3d performance

I would say that a computer, in its current form, is pretty much a compromise.

Regardless, the majority of computer users cannot build their own computer, which is why Apple, HP, Dell etc. are thriving in the market.

 

[takao]

I would say that a computer, in its current form, is pretty much a compromise.

Regardless, the majority of computer users cannot build their own computer, which is why Apple, HP, Dell etc. are thriving in the market.

my parts supplier has the option to build it together for you for 50 if you don't like to do it

true it's still for the enthusiast and not for the average customer that's for sure

if the current prices for memory stay around this level until spring/summer i will probably bite earlier than i thought for a PC replacement

 

[reflex]

if the current prices for memory stay around this level until spring/summer i will probably bite earlier than i thought for a PC replacement

Memory prices tend to go up around the holidays and then gradually fall again after January.

 

[MikeL]

I was hardly whining.

That really isn't for you to say.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

true it's still for the enthusiast and not for the average customer that's for sure

That was the thought that I approached this entire thread with...Apple currently does not offer an "enthusiast" computer, and probably will not do so in the foreseeable future because the things "enthusiasts" do with their PCs run against Apple's design and sales philosophy.

With that said, does this constitute a "Mac [sic] truck sized hole in the Apple desktop product line"? Looking at the big picture I would have to disagree, though of course the overclockers and serious gamers doubtless see it that way. The enthusiast segment is smaller than the consumer and professional markets that Apple currently competes in. Not only that, but as this thread demonstrates, enthusiasts demand high-end hardware at lowish prices with major upgrades at 6-12 month intervals.

In a perfect world for enthusiasts, Apple would offer a $1200 gaming computer that even Apple-haters like Tom's hardware would drool over...but these aren't the things Apple is focusing on right now.

If Apple truly does make a better effort at a gaming machine, expect it to be in the guise of a souped-up 24" iMac, the machine Apple sees as its high-end consumer PC.

 

[takao]

That was the thought that I approached this entire thread with...Apple currently does not offer an "enthusiast" computer, and probably will not do so in the foreseeable future because the things "enthusiasts" do with their PCs run against Apple's design and sales philosophy.

and that is what philosophy ? "only people who paying thousands of dollars premium are allowed to change hard disks and tinker with their computer" ?

With that said, does this constitute a "Mac [sic] truck sized hole in the Apple desktop product line"? Looking at the big picture I would have to disagree, though of course the overclockers and serious gamers doubtless see it that way. The enthusiast segment is smaller than the consumer and professional markets that Apple currently competes in. Not only that, but as this thread demonstrates, enthusiasts demand high-end hardware at lowish prices with major upgrades at 6-12 month intervals.

actually i would have called it "mac book sized hole"

in actually life the amount of PC gamers who spend 1200 for their computer is an awful lot higher than the amount of non gaming home users who buy it for email ...

also for business enviroments outside of photoshop, design and cutting apples are used where ? how many use the java version of SAPgui on os x ? how many apple computers are there with vPRO chipsets ?

edit: and we all know what apple is concentrating now: gadgets, gadgets and more gadgets

 

[Eidorian]

in actually life the amount of PC gamers who spend 1200 for their computer is an awful lot higher than the amount of non gaming home users who buy it for email ...

I'm spending $500.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

and that is what philosophy ? "only people who paying thousands of dollars premium are allowed to change hard disks and tinker with their computer" ?

Change hard disks? No, that's one of the things you can do.

in actually life the amount of PC gamers who spend 1200 for their computer is an awful lot higher than the amount of non gaming home users who buy it for email ...

...but the number of people buying computers for basic tasks like email far outstrips the number buying computers to play Bioshock @ 30fps on a 20" display. People go on and on about how big the gaming industry is getting (and it's true that it's growing fast), but it will always be way behind the consumer market. So while you're correct about the fact that gamers buy more expensive machines in a higher proportion than consumers, you're forgetting the big difference in scale between the two segments.

also for business enviroments outside of photoshop, design and cutting apples are used where ? how many use the java version of SAPgui on os x ? how many apple computers are there with vPRO chipsets ?

edit: and we all know what apple is concentrating now: gadgets, gadgets and more gadgets

I wasn't aware that SAPgui was used as a standard measure for platform market penetration. Last time I checked people didn't build overclocked gaming PCs with high-end video cards to run SAPgui either.

Gadgets have been a huge success for Apple, so they'd be stupid not to continue to develop that aspect of their business.

Personally I am willing to pay for a Mac Pro because it can run professional applications in any OS out there and it also makes a credible high-end gaming machine. Given the choice I'd like to see some cheaper tower options in Apple's lineup but they aren't going to make an enthusiast Mac any time soon. If that makes Apple suck in your eyes, then I guess that's just the way it is.

 

[takao]

...but the number of people buying computers for basic tasks like email far outstrips the number buying computers to play Bioshock @ 30fps on a 20" display. People go on and on about how big the gaming industry is getting (and it's true that it's growing fast), but it will always be way behind the consumer market. So while you're correct about the fact that gamers buy more expensive machines in a higher proportion than consumers, you're forgetting the big difference in scale between the two segments.

what you don't get is that those "email users" aren't exactly buying macs either ... because they are most likely too expensive for them (like my mother finds the base 20" imac too expensive at 1200 while i find that price ok)
as for the PC game market: it isn't everywhere the same .. here it is very strong (which means there are countless stores available who are exactly the same

I wasn't aware that SAPgui was used as a standard measure for platform market penetration. Last time I checked people didn't build overclocked gaming PCs with high-end video cards to run SAPgui either.

SAP products are among the most important _professional_ business apps world wide ... compared to that the professional app called "adobe photoshop" is a small fish in the pond
also you ignored my comment about vPRO chipsets which for many company computer networks is a fixed requirement ... heck in the rather local logistic company i worked for with it's 500-600 computer work places it was mandatory
believe it or not there are professionals who need hardware which apple can't provide .. it can be a business chipset like vPro or accelarated graphics (like the company a friend worked for last year which had workstations with SLI geforce 7900 configurations) or something different

 

[toru173]

That really isn't for you to say.

Yes sir *salutes*

 

[MikeL]

You try way, way too hard. You come off as a whiner. If you don't like that, change how you write. It's your choice, just like it's your choice to get all upset about Apple not making a machine that fits both your budget and your desires.

 

[toru173]

You try way, way too hard. You come off as a whiner. If you don't like that, change how you write. It's your choice, just like it's your choice to get all upset about Apple not making a machine that fits both your budget and your desires.

Alright, but I wasn't upset so much as disappointed. As I said above, I decided to do something about it and I made my own xMac. I have what I want now. Do I think Apple could do a better job then me, and cheaper? Yes - dell can make a better and cheaper budget tower then me, Alienware or Voodoo PC can make a better (maybe not cheaper) high end gaming PC. Do I want a job at Apple? No. Am I insisting they build what I have? No.

If you read the thread, you will notice I have supplied a number of reasons for and against the idea of an xMac. It's the discussion that interests me. Even if Apple suddenly brings out the machine of my dreams I wouldn't buy it until I'm ready to upgrade again, by which time it will probably be superceded by the next greatest thing to hit the market.

Frankly I think your continued personal attacks come dangerously close to trolling. From the Forum Rules:

# "Trolling". Do not post in order to anger other members or intentionally cause negative reactions. For a given post, this can be a subjective call, but a pattern of such posting or an especially egregious case will get you banned. Basically, don't try to pick fights.

Please keep to the topic at hand and leave personal attacks to a PM, if you really feel that it's necessary.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

what you don't get is that those "email users" aren't exactly buying macs either ... because they are most likely too expensive for them (like my mother finds the base 20" imac too expensive at 1200 while i find that price ok)
as for the PC game market: it isn't everywhere the same .. here it is very strong (which means there are countless stores available who are exactly the same

The vast majority of new Mac purchasers are those very "email" users though...Apple has a $600-$800 entry in the form of the Mini. If all people want to do is email/web/MS Word, they don't need a gaming video card, they don't need expansion slots, they don't need 2 HDDs etc. etc.

At any rate I didn't think we were discussing the loss-leader PCs in this thread but a perceived gap between the iMac and Mac Pro for a gaming mid-tower...

I still see the gaming market as the smallest of the major user bases - business, professional and consumer segments are higher priority.

SAP products are among the most important _professional_ business apps world wide ... compared to that the professional app called "adobe photoshop" is a small fish in the pond

The professional app called "Adobe Photoshop", along with Final Cut, Aperture, Logic, and a handful of other "killer apps" have made Apple very profitable - convince my why Apple *needs* to run SAP.

also you ignored my comment about vPRO chipsets which for many company computer networks is a fixed requirement ... heck in the rather local logistic company i worked for with it's 500-600 computer work places it was mandatory

Well that leaves AMD out in the cold as well as Apple...are you going to suggest they just throw in the towel so we can all have our vPro? Since when was a single platform, barely a year old, the only standard to consider for networking?

believe it or not there are professionals who need hardware which apple can't provide .. it can be a business chipset like vPro or accelarated graphics (like the company a friend worked for last year which had workstations with SLI geforce 7900 configurations) or something different

There are a hell of a lot of professionals that use Windows or Linux, and that's fine. I thought we were talking about a gaming midtower here rather than business and professional machines, but regardless Apple is never going to reach into all the niche markets with its current business and design models...that's just the way it is. You are assuming, with your criticisms, that Apple is trying to branch out and compete in every computing segment, and I just don't think that's true. They are focused on a few groups of users. That is neither good nor bad, but a business decision.

 

[takao]

The vast majority of new Mac purchasers are those very "email" users though...Apple has a $600-$800 entry in the form of the Mini. If all people want to do is email/web/MS Word, they don't need a gaming video card, they don't need expansion slots, they don't need 2 HDDs etc. etc.

At any rate I didn't think we were discussing the loss-leader PCs in this thread but a perceived gap between the iMac and Mac Pro for a gaming mid-tower...

I still see the gaming market as the smallest of the major user bases - business, professional and consumer segments are higher priority.

that's for sure explains why nowhere you are seeing more macs in computer science classes than everywhere else
let's face it a mac is an enthusiast machine for people who know about operating systems etc. the average user isn't buying macs (at least where i live) because they are saying themselves "i don't need a 1200 computer for writing emails/word and internet"
you know why i know that ? because i heard it (exactly those words) not only from my mother but also from my 2 uncles, my aunt and my sister for which a mac would be a perfect unproblematic choice

The professional app called "Adobe Photoshop", along with Final Cut, Aperture, Logic, and a handful of other "killer apps" have made Apple very profitable - convince my why Apple *needs* to run SAP.

because companies are willing to spend ridiculous amounts on SAP + fitting hardware ?
do you actually know how big SAP is ?

Well that leaves AMD out in the cold as well as Apple...are you going to suggest they just throw in the towel so we can all have our vPro? Since when was a single platform, barely a year old, the only standard to consider for networking?

well currently AMD/ATI are really unpopular with the enthusiast crowd as well (not like AMD ever mattered much in the business world ...) and surprise surprise they are currently are in the red ink because their CPUs, graphic chips and chipsets are lacking and they don't have an ipod to compensate for it

There are a hell of a lot of professionals that use Windows or Linux, and that's fine. I thought we were talking about a gaming midtower here rather than business and professional machines, but regardless Apple is never going to reach into all the niche markets with its current business and design models...that's just the way it is. You are assuming, with your criticisms, that Apple is trying to branch out and compete in every computing segment, and I just don't think that's true. They are focused on a few groups of users. That is neither good nor bad, but a business decision.

first off it was you who came up with the "...but professional users" stuff to which i simply had to answer since there are an aweful lot more professional users are out there who don't use macs

what's annoying me with apple is that they go on about "media hub" (which would includes games for me) or recently them showing "how important games are etc." and then they turn around and put their finger in their ears if people actually want products which fit their media consumption

and yeah i actually own a mac mini and i won't buy a mac in the same performance region again

 

[Lord Blackadder]

"i don't need a 1200 computer for writing emails/word and internet"
you know why i know that ? because i heard it (exactly those words) not only from my mother but also from my 2 uncles, my aunt and my sister for which a mac would be a perfect unproblematic choice

There's always the Mini...but I admit that Apple will never really compete in the "bargain basement" with complete systems going for under $500. If you are in that category you're pretty much faced with a choice between Windows or Linux.

because companies are willing to spend ridiculous amounts on SAP + fitting hardware ?
do you actually know how big SAP is ?

I will not pretend to know much about SAP, but my question stands. I am ready to concede your assertion that it is very big...but why is this particular market critical to Apple? Who said they need to compete in the business world in order to be taken seriously be consumers and gamers?

And finally, what makes you think SAP (or Oracle for that matter) would be willing to port its software to OS X, even if Apple desperately wanted them to?

well currently AMD/ATI are really unpopular with the enthusiast crowd as well (not like AMD ever mattered much in the business world ...) and surprise surprise they are currently are in the red ink because their CPUs, graphic chips and chipsets are lacking and they don't have an ipod to compensate for it

So, in other words, Apple is just as irrelevant as AMD, but has a successful gadget division to keep them afloat. Why bother then?...if we simply write off AMD and embrace Intel wholeheartedly we end up with no choice at all. Of course vPro is great...it's easy to be successful in the absence of competition. Don't forget that the reason that video cards are so powerful and cheap is because ATI and NVIDIA have been at war for a decade. If there was only one video card manufacturer we'd be three generations behind what's available.

first off it was you who came up with the "...but professional users" stuff to which i simply had to answer since there are an aweful lot more professional users are out there who don't use macs

Point taken, though "professional" is such a broad term no single computer company could hope to satisfy all professionals. Apple focuses on what marketeers like to call the "creative professional" segment.

what's annoying me with apple is that they go on about "media hub" (which would includes games for me) or recently them showing "how important games are etc." and then they turn around and put their finger in their ears if people actually want products which fit their media consumption

The media hub does not include games for me - a media hub does not need the level of CPU, video or hard drive performance that a gaming machine does, but requires more storage and should be quiet. Two very different setups IMHO. You could combine both requirements into one machine, but it would be a compromise - too loud and hot for a media hub or too underpowered for gaming.

I don't think Apple has yet figured out what "gaming" really means from a specifications standpoint - either that or they are not willing to jump on every single hardware revision that comes up (and modify drivers accordingly) so that they always sell the bleeding edge hardware that Tom's drools over.

and yeah i actually own a mac mini and i won't buy a mac in the same performance region again

But maybe your uncles, aunt and sister would be very happy with the Mini...

 

[toru173]

The media hub does not include games for me - a media hub does not need the level of CPU, video or hard drive performance that a gaming machine does, but requires more storage and should be quiet. Two very different setups IMHO. You could combine both requirements into one machine, but it would be a compromise - too loud and hot for a media hub or too underpowered for gaming.

I totally agree with this. The required power from high-end gaming machines simply can't be cooled quitely.

Idealy, your "media center" ought to be small and silent but have the power to be able to deliver the highest resolution video playback availibe. This is possible (as the Apple TV demonstrates) with a relatively low powered CPU and a laptop GPU. A gaming computer needs rediculous amounts of power from both, particularly if the games are being played in HD resolution or above.

If the mini had a slightly beefier gpu and HDCP (even if it were over DVI) it would be a fantastic media center - indeed, a lot of people already use it as such. Does anyone buy the mini as a serious gaming machine? Not to my knowledge.

 

[toke lahti]

The media hub does not include games for me - a media hub does not need the level of CPU, video or hard drive performance that a gaming machine does, but requires more storage and should be quiet.

For me media hub includes two screens; big one for the family to watch tv (recordings) at the same time when one of us is timing new recordings or ripping cd's/dvd's.
So Mini is not media hub for me and because I want headless computer, Apple has no media hub for me.

This topic is about consumers, because professionals and business have money and knowledge to make things work, but consumers don't.

Majority of consumers has a problem: after using windows for a year or two, OS is so choked that it would have to be installed again.
They don't know how to do that and then somebody else has to do it and it's inconvenient and usually they have to pay for it.
OsX solves this problem, but then there is this hardware problem.

I guess that 1/10 of consumers (who all buy & use computers at home) know what "graphics card" is. But almost all know what is "monitor" and what is "computer".
I also assume that most of consumers who need new computer but has good enough monitor, would like to keep using the latter one.
This leaves once again only Mini which has almost zero upgradeability.
(And badly outdated gpu.)
People like to have options.

Those who know what graphics card is and don't want to buy a whole new rig when they want to do something new (like play a game, watch hd, use a second or bigger monitor), have no option at all.
(Seriously, MacPro is not/will never be/should not be for consumers.)

Desktops are only half of the market, but this media hub fashion might make them more popular again.
So, I believe that by offering a xMac (upgradeable graphics + another place for time machine's hdd + maybe a free pci-e slot) Apple would quadruple their desktop sales.
If they would make any profit from that it's just plain stubborness not to do that.

After all, Apple has increased upgradeability of their products before, why would they stop now?

There has been so many things missing in macs recently (new gpu's, eSata, brd, hdcp, acd, macpro, xraid, etc...) that they have to something else than just updating macbook's chipset...

 

[ftaok]

I also assume that most of consumers who need new computer but has good enough monitor, would like to keep using the latter one.
This leaves once again only Mini which has almost zero upgradeability.
(And badly outdated gpu.)
People like to have options.

I just wanted to comment on this. Maybe in Finland, consumers behave like you suggest, but in the US, the behavior is quite different.

In the US, I would guess that most computers sold are in the $500 to $1000 range. The monitors included in these packages are usually pretty lousy. When computers get upgraded, the typical consumer buys a whole new system, which includes a new (usually larger) monitor. The old computer is usually trashed, donated, put in another room, or given to friend/family.

Another point is that consumers in the US like things to match. So when buying a new Mac/PC, they typically want to buy new monitors/keyboards/mouse to match the new CPU. Only items like printers and scanners seem to survive a computer upgrade.

ft

 

[saltyzoo]

I just wanted to comment on this. Maybe in Finland, consumers behave like you suggest, but in the US, the behavior is quite different.

In the US, I would guess that most computers sold are in the $500 to $1000 range. The monitors included in these packages are usually pretty lousy. When computers get upgraded, the typical consumer buys a whole new system, which includes a new (usually larger) monitor. The old computer is usually trashed, donated, put in another room, or given to friend/family.

Another point is that consumers in the US like things to match. So when buying a new Mac/PC, they typically want to buy new monitors/keyboards/mouse to match the new CPU. Only items like printers and scanners seem to survive a computer upgrade.

ft

Nobody I know (I'm in America) fits your description. Everyone I know reuses their monitors and keyboards and only buys a new one if they want to upgrade or get different functionality.

 

[ftaok]

Nobody I know (I'm in America) fits your description. Everyone I know reuses their monitors and keyboards and only buys a new one if they want to upgrade or get different functionality.

My description was anecdotal in nature and by no means a true representation.

Anyways, seeing as how you're a member of an internet forum dedicated to Macs and general technology, you're probably very tech saavy. Your friends are probably techies as well.

I still would tend to think that the general population in the US is decidedly non-techie. Non-techies generally like to replace things in sets. For example, when a family has their kitchen refridgerator conk out, they use it as an opportunity to upgrade the kitchen with new cabinets and appliances. Even if the old oven and dishwasher were still OK. It's an opportunity to start new. Yeah, not a true analogy, but it sort of works.

Also, I would think (no data to back it up) that most desktops sold by Dell and HP are complete sets, not CPUs-only. You see them fly off the shelf at Best Buy all the time. People are buying whole sets and getting rid of their previous computers.

ft

 

[saltyzoo]

My description was anecdotal in nature and by no means a true representation.

As was mine. I was just countering your anecdote with my own.

Anyways, seeing as how you're a member of an internet forum dedicated to Macs and general technology, you're probably very tech saavy. Your friends are probably techies as well.

Yes, but my parents and my friends parents are certainly not techies. My dad hasn't bought a new monitor in 10 years. Though he's upgraded computers a dozen times. The thing is very annoying, but it works for him. Again, an anecdote, but a true story.

Also, I would think (no data to back it up) that most desktops sold by Dell and HP are complete sets, not CPUs-only. You see them fly off the shelf at Best Buy all the time. People are buying whole sets and getting rid of their previous computers.

Best Buy, Dell and HP all sell their systems by default with no monitor. Though they offer a package deal as well. Personally, I see as many or more systems with no monitors being purchased, but again, this is purely anecdote.

 

[ftaok]

As was mine. I was just countering your anecdote with my own.

Fair enough. Let's just say that there are people in the US that buy systems with monitors as well as people that buy them without.

The only thing that is certain is that Apple doesn't have a "mid-range" system without a built in monitor. And by "mid-range", I mean a mini tower with desktop components for about $1000.