i fall into the boat , that i already have a nice display so i dont want an imac, and the mac pro is over kill for me, i wish they would come out with a tower that i could add a video card and a 2nd Hd
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Why is there a Mac truck sized hole in the Apple desktop product line?
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To play the "modern" games you still have to run Windows.
Why not just buy a PC that can do what you want, and have a Mac for OSX? It's pretty simple.
Apple doesn't lose it's out of the box ease, You don't run into software problems by running bootcamp or parallels and you get the best of both words.
Case solved.
Only have enough money for an expensive computer?
Cut a FEW corners and get a Mac Mini as well. Set it up on top of your PC. Just change the display cables around when you want to use the other machine. It's not hard to work that one out... well, actually... If you're willing to waste your time and life playing computer games when you could be doing something more productive...
Why not just buy a PC that can do what you want, and have a Mac for OSX? It's pretty simple.
Apple doesn't lose it's out of the box ease, You don't run into software problems by running bootcamp or parallels and you get the best of both words.
Case solved.
Only have enough money for an expensive computer?
Cut a FEW corners and get a Mac Mini as well. Set it up on top of your PC. Just change the display cables around when you want to use the other machine. It's not hard to work that one out... well, actually... If you're willing to waste your time and life playing computer games when you could be doing something more productive...
I used to budget up to 4k for my Macs, but that was back when playing an mp3 would slow down Netscape. I need a different kind of computer than what Apple is offering. The MacPro is not necessarily fast, it's powerful. You can build a cheap PC in the 1.5k range, overclock the CPU to 3GHz or greater, and it will outperform the MacPro at certain tasks.
Apple is selling a Pro model that excels at video and 3D rendering, and a consumer model designed for people who want to do basic tasks. It makes no more sense for them to leave the midtower market empty than it does to eliminate the MacPro or iMac.
I'd argue that, on balance, the current Mac lineup will satisfy 80-90% of the people who play games on theor computer. The hardcore 10-20% (myself included) who would be willing to shell out for silly things like overclocked high-end GPUs and CPUs and goofy Raptor drives with windows on them are on the fringe...Apple's sales juggernaut rolls on undisturbed by our whining, and will continue to do so.
If you are enough of an Apple fan that you're willing to buy a Mac Pro to get good gaming performance (I will, though I need it for professional reasons as well), do so. If you are hung up on the lack of bleeding edge components for cheap DIY gaming towers then build a PC and enjoy your gaming experience...there's no irresistible impulse that is "forcing" people to pirate OSs into buggy, illegal machines.
Whatever you do, just don't buy one of those PC cases shaped like a transformer head.
I don't understand why people are so defensive about this; the midtower market is not a 'silly, whining minority.' There are a lot of people who don't want a server-class or basic consumer machine. Is that unreasonable? OS X is being hacked to install on PCs because people want to run it, and they can't buy the computer they want to run it on from Apple.
I think you're being a bit unreasonable...would you class the iMac with the HD 2600 as a "basic consumer machine"? 80% of the PCs purchased these days have lower specs...
And anyway, what is this whole entitlement issue where people feel they have the "right" or are being "forced" into building hackintoshes because Apple isn't answering their perceived needs? If you want to do it it's your business, but you'd be better off with Windows if you're that picky about gaming performance versus cost...
I don't see myself as being defensive, but when people say Apple has made some sort of huge blunder in not offering a mid tower, I can only point to Apple's sales figures & profits and shrug...they are doing just fine while leaving the serious gamer/budget-conscious mid-tower market to Windows for the time being.
To be fair, the 80% of machines that have lower specs are $350 PC's with onboard video. There is a HUGE price difference between something like that and an iMac or a Mac Pro. If one is spending the $$, then it should have a better card since the imac is not upgradable in terms of video card so it should have a fairly kick ass card to begin with. I mean the 2600pro 512MB card which has more mem than what the imac card ships with is like $95 http://www.canadacomputers.com/main.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=014633&cid=999.243.272
If Apple had a mid tower, then that would be fine to ship it with modestly capable HD2600 Pro because at least it could be upgraded.
If Apple had a mid tower, then that would be fine to ship it with modestly capable HD2600 Pro because at least it could be upgraded.
BTW I built a PC to play with OSX on there to see how it would run if apple had built a desktop and the results were very good. Incredibly snappy. More so than any new imac I've played with...not sure why.
Core2 Duo E6600 2.4Ghz 4meg cache 1066FSB
Asus P5LD2 Rev2 board
2GB DDR2 667
Nvidia 7300GT 256MB
Antec case and 420W PSU
80GB SATA boot
160GB SATA 2nd drive
LG 16X DVD burner
All in all it cost $650. Yes I built it myself but lets say that it would have cost apple $1000 to offer the same thing with no monitor, why or how could that be a bad thing. Make the computer reasonably priced and heck the person may have enough $$ left over to actually decide to go for the 30" display!
Core2 Duo E6600 2.4Ghz 4meg cache 1066FSB
Asus P5LD2 Rev2 board
2GB DDR2 667
Nvidia 7300GT 256MB
Antec case and 420W PSU
80GB SATA boot
160GB SATA 2nd drive
LG 16X DVD burner
All in all it cost $650. Yes I built it myself but lets say that it would have cost apple $1000 to offer the same thing with no monitor, why or how could that be a bad thing. Make the computer reasonably priced and heck the person may have enough $$ left over to actually decide to go for the 30" display!
since it's sunday and i have a little time to waste i'm gonna compare the 20", i mac with better card (1449 euros around here) with some PCs
local retailer has 9 on offer (which aren't that great machines):
CPU:
of those 9 3 have worse (the sub 500 category)
2 has the same
4 have already quad core (starting at 699)
main memory:
4 have 1 GB
5 have 2 GB
hard disk:
one has the same amount
8 have more hard disk space
graphics cards are hit and miss since we still are in the under 1000 category but 4 have the 8500GT which is okay and most likely on par with the 2600 since it's not a mobile version (the 2600 desktop would be faster obviously)
that said the PCs lack stuff like wireless and bluetooth in many cases but feature other stuff like HDMI output in 5 out of 9 cases and othe stuff like integrated TV output / TV tuners/eSATA connectors for external drives/card readers for which you need an ugly adapter for the imac
or in 1 case even a blue ray drivesure i would have to buy a screen with those but consumer screens aren't that expensive
the only way to get less performance than the 20" 2600 pro means buying a 399 PC, a sony design media center thing little bigger than the mac mini or buying a PC which they have on offer since last year which they haven't replaced yet
all computers which aren't dominating the market .. the most people currently buy in the 600-800 euro market which is roughly the same performance like the imac
if you go for the 2.8 extreme CPU on the bigger imac .. that one is slightly better for certain tasks which aren't 4 core aware but significantly more expensive ...
don't get me wrong the imac (especially the base models which aren't rip offs) are great if not fantastic machines
in fact whenever a new revision gets released i send my mother the link to
http://www.apple.com/at/imac/ since it's the perfect computer for her with the integrated web cam, flat screen reducing the clutter and wireless, remote and it's fantastic software
it will be very likely the last computer she will ever need (the base 20" is already a high price for her so she still is waiting "until they get cheaper" .. which means she is more likely waiting until i buy a new mac and she can get my old one
)for me on the other side the imac is simply not worth it since i like to bring in my own screen and hard disks and want the choice to go dual screen for my mac mini replacement
it's not like i want a 800 euro mid tower which is just unreasonable... i would be willing to spend 1500 if i can get a mac roughly the same spec as the imac dropping the 20"screen + webcam with a quad core instead and BTO choice to get a better card like the x1950 since they could use cheaper desktop parts and would be easier to manufacture they could get even a higher margin on it (even more so if they would make it "bring your own keyboard and mouse)
currently the windows market is really stumbling thanks to vista doing badly which means the chance to attract switchers is really high and everybody is doing drivers work.... in 2 years all the problems will be settled and vista already dug in again just like it happened with XP...
but i guess steve jobs is too occupied with his gadgets (which are actually reaping in the huge profits ... not their computers)
edit: for the first time after years i did compare US apple store and austrian store comparison calculating in the weak dollar: ouch that's some serious margin apple is getting just by the weak dollar
Yes I built it myself but lets say that it would have cost apple $1000 to offer the same thing with no monitor, why or how could that be a bad thing. Make the computer reasonably priced and heck the person may have enough $$ left over to actually decide to go for the 30" display!
Leaving aside the fact that this is just another iteration of the interminable Ars Technica xMac Thread, there are a few things that need to be said on this debate ...
Firstly, let's just call it the xMac for brevity's sake.
1) Those who call for an xMac span a wide range of needs. There's a common theme of wanting a headless mid-tower, but they range from those who want a Mac Mini Plus (or Cube II), to those who want a MacPro Light. No xMac is going to make all of the xMaccers happy.
2) I think we can agree that Apple are not going to launch any product at a price point that will cannibalize any of their existing sales. Let me correct that: anyone who thinks that Apple are going to launch a machine at a price point that will cannibalize their existing sales is flat-out crazy. There is no part of Apple's current sales strategy or product matrix that says they are doing something wrong.
So, we need to find a gap in Apple's desktop market where we might insert a hypothetical xMac.
At the bottom?
Apple are going to release a sub £399 machine below the entry-level Mini? I'm going to go with "No" for fifty points, there, Bob.
Spec up the HD and RAM on the upper Mini to the top end and it comes in at £639, meaning that there's a £160 gap between that and the cheapest iMac you can buy.
Could Apple stick a Mini Plus in here?
I'm not entirely convinced that a "Cube II" in this space is a bad idea. However, it would be firmly in the consumer space and the only part of the consumer market that Apple doesn't have a solution for is the gamer ... any gaming solution at this price point would have to make the graphics cards in the iMacs look like poor value.
Additionally, I'm not an engineer, but I think that once you start chucking fast RAM and beefy graphics cards into small enclosures, you have to start making some engineering choices based more on necessity than aesthetics, and I think Teh Steve would sooner die than see an ugly machine come out of Cupertino.
Once we move into the iMac space, I think we have to accept that Apple are not going to mess with this formula any time soon.
Which then leaves us with the gap between the top of the iMacs and the bottom of the MacPros.
The out-of-the-box configuration of the 24" iMac is £1459 and the cheapest MacPro you can configure is £1501 ...
I'm curious as to what the xMaccers think Apple could put into that £42 space that would be able to distinguish itself from either of its neighbours in the product matrix without cannibalizing sales from one or the other?
The fact of the matter is, Apple does have headless, non-AIO solutions - the Mini starting at £399 and rising to £639, and the Pro starting at £1509.
Now, you might argue that the £800 gap is a mistake on Apple's part, but their financial performance quarter on quarter disagrees with that assessment.
The fact of the matter is that the xMaccers don't like either the spec or the price point of Apple's non-AIO solutions, which isn't the same thing as Apple not having any solutions.
Cheers!
Jim
heard that before ... in 2003/2004 when a lot of people were whining about no affordable headless mac
"it will destroy imac sales" "why don't you simply get an emac" "power macs aren't that expensive" "there is no gap in apple's line up" "they are making profit" "it will never happen"
in 2005 the mac mini was introduced and the only thing which went the dodo was the bad joke called emac which was selling bad anyway
personally i'm crossing fingers for a little bit of history repeating
Apple doesnt want the market to decide anything, lets face it they are control freaks on everything they make. The years of handicapping one model for another took its toll on me and I bought a Dell last year. Even today im wrestling with a new monitor,new cpu & video card and use my copy of vista I have never installed vs Mini with no GPU or iMac with broken GPU or PowerMac with PUNY GPU. GREED & $$$ and some marketing commitee of yes men must decide apples product lines I have decided long ago.
With Nvidia's 8800 GT now out I may just take a 3rd option and thats another new Dell. When it comes to graphics Apple just plays to many games and hurdles for the consumer. OSX is nice, but is it that nice to have such poor hardware?? Thats the question.
With Nvidia's 8800 GT now out I may just take a 3rd option and thats another new Dell. When it comes to graphics Apple just plays to many games and hurdles for the consumer. OSX is nice, but is it that nice to have such poor hardware?? Thats the question.
I'm going to play devils advocate.
Lets be honest, how many people really expand their computer (add more hard disks or change graphics cards?) I don't think it's that many in reality. Yeah a hardcore of gamers. The fact is people often like the idea more than the reality. PCs are out of date so quickly, it's actually rarely worth it.
The PC is a messy gaming platform, the Mac is an almost non-existent gaming platform. If you really want to play non-console games then you really need Windows, so why not just buy a PC, it's a damn site cheaper and more customisable?
Personally I'm sick of noisy, ugly, Watt eating, heat belchers. Sometimes I actually think Apple are ahead of the curve and people just don't realise it yet. They've got the best laptops, tidy, quiet and powerful enough desktops and beefy tower numbercrunchers for the video guys.
Ah but you can't add hard disks to the iMac you say. I'd say, why do you want to? Buy it with a decent sized HDD for your OSs and apps etc. For your MP3s, photos or whatever you want to shared, use a small NAS which can be used across all the devices in your home network. Why tie the storage to one device? (Mac Pro is a different case for Professional work). Hell you can even have RAID to make sure that precious data isn't lost.
Just some thoughts to stir the pot some more
Lets be honest, how many people really expand their computer (add more hard disks or change graphics cards?) I don't think it's that many in reality. Yeah a hardcore of gamers. The fact is people often like the idea more than the reality. PCs are out of date so quickly, it's actually rarely worth it.
The PC is a messy gaming platform, the Mac is an almost non-existent gaming platform. If you really want to play non-console games then you really need Windows, so why not just buy a PC, it's a damn site cheaper and more customisable?
Personally I'm sick of noisy, ugly, Watt eating, heat belchers. Sometimes I actually think Apple are ahead of the curve and people just don't realise it yet. They've got the best laptops, tidy, quiet and powerful enough desktops and beefy tower numbercrunchers for the video guys.
Ah but you can't add hard disks to the iMac you say. I'd say, why do you want to? Buy it with a decent sized HDD for your OSs and apps etc. For your MP3s, photos or whatever you want to shared, use a small NAS which can be used across all the devices in your home network. Why tie the storage to one device? (Mac Pro is a different case for Professional work). Hell you can even have RAID to make sure that precious data isn't lost.
Just some thoughts to stir the pot some more
I'm going to play devils advocate.
Lets be honest, how many people really expand their computer (add more hard disks or change graphics cards?) I don't think it's that many in reality. Yeah a hardcore of gamers. The fact is people often like the idea more than the reality. PCs are out of date so quickly, it's actually rarely worth it.
The PC is a messy gaming platform, the Mac is an almost non-existent gaming platform. If you really want to play non-console games then you really need Windows, so why not just buy a PC, it's a damn site cheaper and more customisable?
Personally I'm sick of noisy, ugly, Watt eating, heat belchers. Sometimes I actually think Apple are ahead of the curve and people just don't realise it yet. They've got the best laptops, tidy, quiet and powerful enough desktops and beefy tower numbercrunchers for the video guys.
Ah but you can't add hard disks to the iMac you say. I'd say, why do you want to? Buy it with a decent sized HDD for your OSs and apps etc. For your MP3s, photos or whatever you want to shared, use a small NAS which can be used across all the devices in your home network. Why tie the storage to one device? (Mac Pro is a different case for Professional work). Hell you can even have RAID to make sure that precious data isn't lost.
Just some thoughts to stir the pot some more
I'll still never buy an integrated monitor for my use. Ever. For a kiosk in a store, sure, but not for home use. Never. Ever. Which gives you the mini (if it still exists when you want to buy) or mac pro. That's a huge gap.
See the funny part is that when the G5 PowerMac got replaced by the Mac Pro there was that rare aftermarket video card that they allowed for the G5 to with stand some gamers delight at the time. They made an ATI 1950XT for the G5, if Apple was willing to allow that to happen more often, I don't think we'd be complaining so much on gaming performance or having to upgrade an entire machine of this caliber.
I know you guys don't believe in the gamers market in Apple however as a gamer who does build his own systems and running the sad Windows OS; in my humble opinion Apple seems to run these games better in terms of stability. Most of the time the game would crash or so many more bugs. For instance World of Warcraft, whenever there's a new Patch, yes there's a huge change log but most of the time its for the PC and a very short list for MAC's.
Hence why if they could just have at least one model of the Mac Pro with the Core2 Duo Extreme chip they offer on the iMac 24" and a Nvidia 7800GT (which has gotten great value and performance) then I would believe it would satisfy alot of people's needs (plus if it can at least be $1800 - $2000)
I know you guys don't believe in the gamers market in Apple however as a gamer who does build his own systems and running the sad Windows OS; in my humble opinion Apple seems to run these games better in terms of stability. Most of the time the game would crash or so many more bugs. For instance World of Warcraft, whenever there's a new Patch, yes there's a huge change log but most of the time its for the PC and a very short list for MAC's.
Hence why if they could just have at least one model of the Mac Pro with the Core2 Duo Extreme chip they offer on the iMac 24" and a Nvidia 7800GT (which has gotten great value and performance) then I would believe it would satisfy alot of people's needs (plus if it can at least be $1800 - $2000)
The people who want an xMac seem to have two reasons:
"The iMac isn't powerful/upgradable enough"
"I don't want to have to buy a screen along with the computer, I already have one" (or some variant thereof)
If the iMac had an extra disk slot accessable like the ram area, and Apple released a better graphics card option, how many people would be satisfied?
What if they put VESA mounting points on all their screens, custom shorter cables and a VESA mounting kit for a "super" mini? The Apple tech guys at the store could fit it and you'd have an AIO that would be fairly easily upgradable. Who would be satisfied then?
"The iMac isn't powerful/upgradable enough"
"I don't want to have to buy a screen along with the computer, I already have one" (or some variant thereof)
If the iMac had an extra disk slot accessable like the ram area, and Apple released a better graphics card option, how many people would be satisfied?
What if they put VESA mounting points on all their screens, custom shorter cables and a VESA mounting kit for a "super" mini? The Apple tech guys at the store could fit it and you'd have an AIO that would be fairly easily upgradable. Who would be satisfied then?
As per your previous post, you're an iMac defender, so you don't qualify to approve.
which in my age group (24) in central europe means pretty much everybody (PC games are still most popular here)
people who play games on computers are actually the group of customers spending the most on the PC costumer side (mice for 79 bucks etc.)
because there are people who don't want to buy 2 computers to do the job of what 1 computer could solve if a company just got their act together and offer decent graphics cards and reasonable expendability (2 internal hard drives, 1 PCie slot)
currently it's cheaper to get a mac book _and_ a windows PC which totally spanks the mac pro 3d performance and the imac in CPU, than to get a mac pro ... that is totally ridiculous and making no sense whatsoever
toru173 said:
that would neither be easy or cheap to produce nor actually being more comfortable than just going with some awesomely designed midi tower with desktop parts (and not laptop parts/server parts like it's currently)
let's face it AIO computers outside of laptops are a big niche no matter how you turn it
It seems a few people won't be happy until Apple make a super-games-machine for under $1k.
My guess is a lot more people would be happy with a less crippled Mac Mini. Something with a little more grunt and RAM-capacity, 7.2K HD and a decent-ish video card could have real appeal.
Same could be said for a more powerful iMac. I've mentioned a few times that a quad-core, dual-HD iMac with CardBus and a slightly better video card would have a lot of appeal for musicians, for example.