Will APPLE EVER give up on screwing PRO user (no firewire) read in.

[mosx]

So, what did Apple do? They released the X300 which basically crippled the machine all together - no more pro apps as it was to slow.

Uh.. what?

Apple has nothing termed "X300". Are you getting the MacBook Air confused with the Lenovo Thinkpad X300?

Some argued at the time, maybe they didn't want to enter the game market, I arugued that gaming is more than the music business.

As much as a music lover as I am, theres no denying that the music industry (in terms of money made) is shrinking considerably while the gaming industry is thriving and growing. It makes perfect sense for Apple to want to be a part of it as there is a ton of money to be made there.

Now the new machines play games very well, but what did apple do, again, of course, toward the PRO and worse, MOM AND POP users that used iLife and have video camera's = they removed FIREWIRE.

I've yet to see a digital video camera of any kind made in the last several years that was Firewire only. I've seen plenty over the last several years that were USB only. But Firewire only? Not since the beginning of this decade.

Again, no pro use now and even WORSE was that many, millions of bedroom musicians needed the macbook with FIREWIRe for all their audio devices, pro hardware uses firewire (no CPU bandwith needed like with USB which will cause pops and clicks.

Theres endless amounts of "professional" audio devices out there that are USB only or USB capable.

And having 2% CPU time dedicated to a USB transfer isn't going to cause any issues with the quality of sound either. Don't jump to conclusions.

Plus the MacBook still has SPDIF in and out for bit perfect recording.

Pro's made them who they are and now One on One went from LOGIC/FCP to iLife but now you can't use iMovie with FIREWIRE but Apple would sell MORE not LESS, machines if they did this. What is wrong with them.

Apple wants to appeal to a larger market now. They don't want to be stuck being seen as just a company for "media professionals". They want to appeal to anyone with the money to buy their systems. Thats exactly what they're doing. Thats why their sales are increasing and more and more people are deciding to make the switch.

Despite the fact that you're not happy, Apple's strategy is working.

One can only hope that this time, due to the outcry from thousands upon thousands, that they will realize they need to release the MB with firewire.

Apple has made it pretty clear that they want to be a consumer electronics company and not a company that caters computers to a small group.

Why do they need Firewire? With quality controller chips on both ends, USB 2.0 is every bit as fast in a real world situation. The new MacBooks USB controllers are just as fast as those included in PCs and benchmarks have proved it, so now Apple's USB support is finally on-par with the rest and on-par with Firewire.

Many audio intefaces have moved to USB or have been USB capable for MANY years.

Plus a very large portion of DV cams are either USB capable or USB only, and its been that way for years as well

Firewire is largely irrelevant. Has been since the debut of USB 2.0.

All iMacs GLOSSY, iMacs used to be underpowered and matte if you wanted and were in many ART/GRAPHIC studios, now they are powerful and all glossy so no color correction at all.

See this argument does NOT make sense.

People say that matte more closely resembles print. That is 100% not true. How can you even begin to compare the two? The one technology relies on an LCD panel with light shining through it to display the image, while the other relies on ambient lighting to be seen. Completely different. Not only that, but matte screens actually distort the image and dull the color thanks to the matte coating. Glossy screens actually let the WHOLE image through, so you don't get soft text, you don't get dulled out colors, etc.

Glossy screens outperform matte screens every time.

It can be your opinion that you like matte better, but on a technical and real world level, the glossy screen will produce a more realistic and sharper image.

For those that own a USB transferring flash or HDD camcorder the lack of FireWire isn't a problem, but those that own a miniDV camcorder might not be willing to buy a new one.

How many MiniDV cams released in the last 5 years have been Firewire only? Not many. How many before that were Firewire only?

 

[yorkslad]

How many MiniDV cams released in the last 5 years have been Firewire only? Not many. How many before that were Firewire only?

Whilst this is true most FireWire/USB camcorders use FireWire for output of video and USB for output of photo stills.

In recent years we have see the dumbing down of consumer camcorders, dropping things like microphone inputs to make cheaper and cheaper devices, and since the advent of AVCHD and hard drive/solid state we now see drop of FireWire.

It's only natural I guess for apple to dumb down their cheaper products to cut costs and follow the trend, after all macs are still wildly expensive compared to PCs, but apple shouldn't under estimate the bad taste this has left for people who have switched and don't class themselves as pro users.

Personally I love the form factor of the MacBook over the Pro especially with the 24" ACD, it's put me off buying/upgrading as I don't want to lug around a 15" slab!

 

[hiimamac]

What the heck is the OP talking about? What do you mean that the iMacs use a cheaper "non-standard" Firewire? Apple uses 400 and 800 (which they developed) and the iMac has both of these ports. What are you talking about????

Well its evident here - not many are in tune with what is going on.

Macbook Pro and Mac Pro use TEXAS INSTRUMENTS FIREWIRE chipsets.
The macbooks used to use these, now its some INDIA cheap firewire chipset which causes problems for audio recording.

Go to gearslutz . com and google firewire macbook and see the problems. These people are pro to consumer recording artists, engineers.

My argument was, when they went to X300, this was a slap on the PRO user, the less than 1%.

Now, taking the same approach, going after PRO saying sorry, can't have, must get a pro, they didn't realize that numerous consumers use firewire with iLife, iMovie and its a huge blunder. I have some Apple friends, store in top 10, hope they are right in that they (NEW MACBOOKS) are NOT selling.

Serves apple right. GREED ($500 ram anyone, full retail for a friggin iPhone case) and many consumers are fumed. Hope Macbook as is, goes the way of Apple TV or Macbook RipOFF Air, unless at $799

Plus, I didn't even get into the economics and manufacturing that the MACBOOK PRO used to cost so much more to make, now with the UNI BODY, it's the same process/shell and yet Apple expects you to pay $700 dollars for a $7 dollar part.

Fanboys. Unbelievable sometimes how some don't get it and have the ALL HAIL Paranoid Jobs mentality. I mean, WOW, did you see him in his medicated state during his LAME keynote where he watched everyone HAND BACK the UNIBODY, he said, "TIMES UP, give em back, you can see them later", hey Steve, know one is going to steal one. Must be all that pot he's smoking, or over medicated and therefore paranoid.



Tech, Economics, Programming.

Uh.. what?

Apple has nothing termed "X300". Are you getting the MacBook Air confused with the Lenovo Thinkpad X300?



A

What the heck @#$#@$ are you talking about?

I watched and benchmarked every macbook incarnation. I remember it being at 170% with just a switch to LEOPARD. Then apple released the X300 (INTEL) and the benchmarks went down to 70%, it was all over the news (Motion forums), and barefeats reported on it.

It is still the integrated chipset on the old white/black macbook.

Sorry, I forget sometimes that you have to explain things to Apple lifers.
If not, I apologize - but trust me, I have bench marked every machine that has come out from Apple for years. I was stunned when it went from 170% to 70% knowing you could never play a game and it was just to hurt the motion users as it was a huge deal that the MB could run motion.

Now Apple is making damn sure you can't do any video work at all and certainly no audio work. USB won't cut it for audio, not for any pre-amp device worth it's salt.

 

[dukebound85]

What the heck @#$#@$ are you talking about?

I watched and benchmarked every macbook incarnation. I remember it being at 170% with just a switch to LEOPARD. Then apple released the X300 (INTEL) and the benchmarks went down to 70%, it was all over the news (Motion forums), and barefeats reported on it.

It is still the integrated chipset on the old white/black macbook.

Sorry, I forget sometimes that you have to explain things to Apple lifers.
If not, I apologize - but trust me, I have bench marked every machine that has come out from Apple for years. I was stunned when it went from 170% to 70% knowing you could never play a game and it was just to hurt the motion users as it was a huge deal that the MB could run motion.

Now Apple is making damn sure you can't do any video work at all and certainly no audio work. USB won't cut it for audio, not for any pre-amp device worth it's salt.

what do you mean by x300? i have never heard of x300 with the macbook line

i think you are referring to the x3100 integrated graphics chip that replaced the gma 950 integrated chip

dont criticize people when you yourself dont know exactly what you are talking about in terms of components

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

Well its evident here - not many are in tune with what is going on.

Macbook Pro and Mac Pro use TEXAS INSTRUMENTS FIREWIRE chipsets.
The macbooks used to use these, now its some INDIA cheap firewire chipset which causes problems for audio recording.

Go to gearslutz . com and google firewire macbook and see the problems. These people are pro to consumer recording artists, engineers.

My argument was, when they went to X300, this was a slap on the PRO user, the less than 1%.

Now, taking the same approach, going after PRO saying sorry, can't have, must get a pro, they didn't realize that numerous consumers use firewire with iLife, iMovie and its a huge blunder. I have some Apple friends, store in top 10, hope they are right in that they (NEW MACBOOKS) are NOT selling.

Serves apple right. GREED ($500 ram anyone, full retail for a friggin iPhone case) and many consumers are fumed. Hope Macbook as is, goes the way of Apple TV or Macbook RipOFF Air, unless at $799

Plus, I didn't even get into the economics and manufacturing that the MACBOOK PRO used to cost so much more to make, now with the UNI BODY, it's the same process/shell and yet Apple expects you to pay $700 dollars for a $7 dollar part.

Fanboys. Unbelievable sometimes how some don't get it and have the ALL HAIL Paranoid Jobs mentality. I mean, WOW, did you see him in his medicated state during his LAME keynote where he watched everyone HAND BACK the UNIBODY, he said, "TIMES UP, give em back, you can see them later", hey Steve, know one is going to steal one. Must be all that pot he's smoking, or over medicated and therefore paranoid.



Tech, Economics, Programming.

You do realize much of what you're saying makes absolutely no sense?

 

[mosx]

Whilst this is true most FireWire/USB camcorders use FireWire for output of video and USB for output of photo stills.

I have absolutely never seen that. Every miniDV cam I've used or friends or others have used that has had USB has transferred video over USB.

With all that I've seen and used, every single one has shown up as a removable storage device. You can either use software to get the video directly or just drag and drop the video from the camera to wherever you want.

Honestly, it would be completely and entirely stupid for a camera manufacturer to use that kind of design for a number of reasons. One being the fact that, with quality controllers on both ends, USB 2.0 is just as fast as Firewire. Second reason being that the vast majority of PCs in the world never had and never will have Firewire of any kind. However, every OEM PC since 2003 has shipped with multiple USB 2.0 ports.

I mean, Firewire for video is a non-issue, has been a non-issue, and will continue to be a non-issue.

I watched and benchmarked every macbook incarnation. I remember it being at 170% with just a switch to LEOPARD. Then apple released the X300 (INTEL) and the benchmarks went down to 70%, it was all over the news (Motion forums), and barefeats reported on it.

As dukebound85 pointed out, you're referring to the X3100. Theres nothing in Apple's computers or lineup named X300, only X3100.

The X3100 is the integrated GPU in the Santa Rosa chipset.

You're also talking about OpenGL benchmarks. Yes the X3100 was a horrible chip and it should have never been used.

However, synthetic OpenGL benchmarks absolutely never tell the true story of a computers overall performance.

In terms of processor speed, any of the Santa Rosa MacBooks (those equipped with the X3100) will mop the floor with any of the G5s out there.

For things like Photoshop and other CPU intensive tasks, any MacBook will easily walk all over any G5 Mac. Even though Apple will never admit it, the PowerPC chips were never top of the line and they were never as fast as their Intel or AMD counterparts. The Core Duo and then Core 2 Duo were significantly faster and you can find benchmarks from the original Core Duo MacBook Pro and iMac releases that show those machines beating the fastest quad-core G5s.

Only when it comes to something that requires dedicated video hardware will the G5 be able to beat the plastic MacBooks.

However, that is not the case now. The 9400M in the aluminum MacBook is a VERY good GPU. In terms of 3D performance, its still not quite up to the level of the GeForce 6600 that shipped in the last G5. But in terms of video processing its LEAGUES ahead. Thats where it matters when you're editing video.

Overall, the aluminum Macs are better in every way than the G5s. The plastic Macs were better in terms of CPU speed and where CPU intensive tasks were important.

I was stunned when it went from 170% to 70% knowing you could never play a game and it was just to hurt the motion users as it was a huge deal that the MB could run motion.

Again, synthetic benchmarks don't tell the whole story when it comes to chip/system performance.

Now Apple is making damn sure you can't do any video work at all and certainly no audio work. USB won't cut it for audio, not for any pre-amp device worth it's salt.

You can do plenty of video work considering every consumer DV cam out there at least is USB capable, most USB only.

Many professional and "prosumer" audio interfaces are USB capable as well. It will NOT have any affect on the sound quality either.

 

[MacinJosh]

What the heck @#$#@$ are you talking about?

No, what are YOU talking about? WTF is X300?

Joshua.

 

[No1451]

Seriously, SHUT THE HELL UP.

The FW chipset on the new MBPs is junk. I literally would not be able to use it. Also spending extra money on a bigger screen is a great idea, unless you want a smaller screen.

Now, this seems to be the general thought, the Agere(is that correct?) chipset isn't as good as the TI one, and it bugs with nearly everything. Now following the logic that the FW on the new MBPs sucks, why the **** do you want it? If its so terrible, why do you want it on the cheaper MacBooks so much?

And seriously, I know they screwed you, I wouldn't mind FW so I could connect my Drobo to it, but it doesn't have it, but you have to understand, this is a product, and we don't dictate what Apple chooses to include or cut, its unfortunate but its the truth. They are going to make what they think will make money, they don't really care who's toes they step on, if we give them our money they will keep on doing it.

If you really want to send a message, stop QQing to the internet and just don't buy their ****ing product.

 

[dukebound85]

Seriously, SHUT THE HELL UP.



Now, this seems to be the general thought, the Agere(is that correct?) chipset isn't as good as the TI one, and it bugs with nearly everything. Now following the logic that the FW on the new MBPs sucks, why the **** do you want it? If its so terrible, why do you want it on the cheaper MacBooks so much?

And seriously, I know they screwed you, I wouldn't mind FW so I could connect my Drobo to it, but it doesn't have it, but you have to understand, this is a product, and we don't dictate what Apple chooses to include or cut, its unfortunate but its the truth. They are going to make what they think will make money, they don't really care who's toes they step on, if we give them our money they will keep on doing it.

If you really want to send a message, stop QQing to the internet and just don't buy their ****ing product.

you know, its pretty hard NOT to buy apple products if your business relies on osx and has 1000's of dollars invested in software and hardware

so yes, we have EVERY right to complain

 

[synth3tik]

Seriously, SHUT THE HELL UP.



Now, this seems to be the general thought, the Agere(is that correct?) chipset isn't as good as the TI one, and it bugs with nearly everything. Now following the logic that the FW on the new MBPs sucks, why the **** do you want it? If its so terrible, why do you want it on the cheaper MacBooks so much?

And seriously, I know they screwed you, I wouldn't mind FW so I could connect my Drobo to it, but it doesn't have it, but you have to understand, this is a product, and we don't dictate what Apple chooses to include or cut, its unfortunate but its the truth. They are going to make what they think will make money, they don't really care who's toes they step on, if we give them our money they will keep on doing it.

If you really want to send a message, stop QQing to the internet and just don't buy their ****ing product.

I got an idea. TI chipset on a MacBook. OMG!

Also to note. My $3400 worth of AU plug ins alone, and all my work being in Logic disagree with you. I would have to say I really don't have the choice to buy Apple or not. I just have the option on when I upgrade my machines.

 

[Nuc]

Leave feedback here like I did.

Feedback

Nuc

 

[MrZebra]

and I'm smarter than an overwhelming percentage of people out there

and very modest also.

 

[nsbio]

Expansion of market by Apple means that the "bling" factor of their products is way up while the usability is down.

No firewire is a bad thing because firewire connection is better than USB 2.0.

Worse, current Apple notebooks have ONE USB port, which is absolutely appalling. If anyone thinks that there are two, try to plug two USB thumb drives at the same time. Powerbooks and older MBPs had a much better positioning of their USB ports, such that two ports were useable at the same time. In current MBPs, some effing "genius" decided to effectively reduce the number of USB ports to only one. Sure, you have a choice as to which of the two to use, but then the remaining one becomes physically inaccessible.

 

[nsbio]

I'm smarter than an overwhelming percentage of people out there

Good one. I sure hope your cranium is not too tight for the big brain inside.

 

[No1451]

you know, its pretty hard NOT to buy apple products if your business relies on osx and has 1000's of dollars invested in software and hardware

so yes, we have EVERY right to complain

So don't upgrade to the new machines? Do they really bring all that much new functionality over the older laptops? Nobody is forcing you to buy the new machines, so DON'T buy the new generation, if enough people do this maybe Apple will get their **** in gear and give us more connections and extras in our laptops.

They can get away with this because people will run out into the streets to buy their new stuff, but if you stay with your older(but still functional) machines, they might find that its hurting their bottom line.

 

[yorkslad]

I have absolutely never seen that. Every miniDV cam I've used or friends or others have used that has had USB has transferred video over USB.

Im sorry you've never heard of that but it has been like that for a while. Whilst new camcorders now, as I said in my previous post, do it over USB anything over 2 years old or prosumer most definately will not.

Honestly, it would be completely and entirely stupid for a camera manufacturer to use that kind of design for a number of reasons. One being the fact that, with quality controllers on both ends, USB 2.0 is just as fast as Firewire. Second reason being that the vast majority of PCs in the world never had and never will have Firewire of any kind.

I'll tell that to Sony then!

I mean, Firewire for video is a non-issue, has been a non-issue, and will continue to be a non-issue.

You obviously don't edit or use video to any standard (excluding mobile phone rubbish) or would realize what a stupid statement that is!

You can do plenty of video work considering every consumer DV cam out there at least is USB capable, most USB only.

In the last 12-18 months maybe, but what about the millions of others?!

Many professional and "prosumer" audio interfaces are USB capable as well.

Professionals still use firewire as do prosumers, I know because I have a foot in both camps!!

 

[Sun Baked]

Price as the only qualification for Pro/luxury goods.

Hmmm, the $40k Hyundai must really confuse you.

 

[gibbz]

 

[BornAgainMac]

The cheaper White Macbook still has Firewire. Probably the reason the new one didn't have it was because of time constraints. They will probably make the successor of FW800 standard across the line eventually.

I hope a better quality glossy display is made for the Macbook. I understand the complaint about glossy for the pros. I wonder if Apple will offer a solution for that next year? I am sure they heard about the complaints by now.

 

[VSMacOne]

People are always going to find something to complain about... Mac users have WHINED and WHINED about having an easy access HDD and RAM for years... NOW that it happened, it's no biggie anymore!
Now it's "OH they don't have FIREWIRE!" Whineeeeeeee!! And "I can't use two thumb-drives at the same time!" (it's SOO strenuous to use them one at a time).
People wanted lighter and slicker laptops from Apple. They got them. The only way to put FW in these new MBs is to give up the Ethernet or one of the USBs.
And honestly, I believe MORE people use the Ethernet or the 2 USBs than they would Firewire. It's that simple.

 

[nsbio]

I believe MORE people use the Ethernet or the 2 USBs than they would Firewire. It's that simple.

True. However, by the same token, more people eat mcdonald's cheeseburgers than eat out in other restaurants, and therefore every restaurant that is striving for a market share should drop everything and dedicate fully to flipping burgers.

Back to Apple laptops, with the recent revisions, they are becoming more and more blingy and less and less functional. Of course, innovation comes at a price to the consumer, and this is reasonable, but sometimes this price, in terms of loss of functionality, seems too steep. Personally, I would be happy if I had a chance to install Mac OS X on a Lenovo laptop such that I myself could make a choice as to how many and what kind of ports to have in my computer. I am not crazy about having to rely on the whims of the Apple's His Majesty.

 

[cellocello]

facepalm.jpg

 

[hogfaninga]

To the OP: If anyone is critical of Stevie and his decisions they will get blasted on this forum especially from the newbies to Apple. Ignore them.

To people who say they are pissed at reading the whining from those mad about the removal of FW: Don't click on the thread. It is that simple. Anyone with one ounce of common sense knows forums like this are a place for people to complain. If you don't like it then start a Mac message board and make whatever rules you want.

 

[silverblack]

Lately, it appears to me more like - "Anyone posting anything on this forum will get blasted, period".

 

[NT1440]

Why oh why does yet another FW bitchfest get to two pages here?

You can't use one of the other billion threads on it?