Will APPLE EVER give up on screwing PRO user (no firewire) read in.

[chaos86]

So let me get this straight, OP.

You're a mac user who uses MacBooks for his work, right? Which means you're using them... wait for it... professionally? For your... profession? So you're a... Pro... MacBook user? And you're mad that when you choose to use a line of computers (the MacBook) that isn't distinctly marked and targetted toward professionals (like the MacBook Pro), you don't get the features you need for your... profession.





I'm not saying we don't pay too high a premium for Macs. It's true that we can get a PC with equal internal hardware for a fraction of the price. But the consumer video and audio world has chosen USB 2.0 and it's leading the Pro world that way too. It's a fact. Deal with it by buying audio and video equipment with that in mind. If you're a pro buying pro-marked machines, you'll be all set with FW, or FW expresscards until long after the equipment has failed.

Oh yeah, and this is a Mac forum, not a firewire chipset enthusiast or audio professional forum. Few here know what X300 is.

 

[sushi]

Yes miniDV is tape based.

However, the cameras I've played with have all shown up as USB mass storage and allowed me to pull videos off.

It is tape but video is stored as digital files on that tape. You don't "record" or transfer in real time. It pulls video off as fast as it can be read.

MiniDV does not store video as files.

That is why the tape is read (or written to) in real time.

My guess, is that the camcorders you are using are set to record to the internal flash memory that stores the video in MPEG4 format. That is what you are seeing via USB.

To get the footage from a MiniDV tape, you transfer the data at the tape read speed from the camera to the computer.

Suggest you go read benchmarks. Look up benchmarks with a PC using quality USB 2.0 controllers and a Mac with Firewire. You'll see that USB 2.0 is every bit as fast in real world situations.

Real world file transfers over FW400 are almost twice as fast as USB 2.0.

USB and FW use different file transfer protocols/hardware. That is why FW is faster in sustained file transfer. With FW400, you will see around 360-380 Mbps sustained transfer speeds. With USB 2.0, you will see around about half that depending on the controller.

If you look at most of HP's desktops they specifically say in the specs "NO IEEE 1394".

Just too a quick look at HP's web site and found some desktops with FW.

Too lazy to go through the whole lineup.

Also, HP/Compaq, Dell and Gateway are not the only computer manufacturers out there. Don't forget Sony, Toshiba, IBM, and Panasonic to name a few. Plus you have the homebuilt market which is growing these days.

You said:

Second reason being that the vast majority of PCs in the world never had and never will have Firewire of any kind.

This is simply not true and is an exaggeration.

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

Thats not true.

Have you seen the Apple TV? It's an entire computer in a ridiculously thin and small enclosure.

It has dedicated graphics.

Theres really absolutely no reason Apple can't put dedicated graphics in the MacBook.

It's just a matter of them not making as much money and people realizing "hey! $1,999 for a GeForce 9600M GT really is twice as much as it should be!"

Have you seen the MacBook tear downs? The motherboard for the MacBook is smaller than the motherboard for the Apple TV.

For reference,
MacBook: http://static1.ifixit.com/igi/AUZYBwBSf4DGQiru.large http://static2.ifixit.com/igi/q6326SjvU6RhCqZ1.large
MacBook Pro: http://static2.ifixit.com/igi/n2TrniSjqkvPPsuc.large http://static2.ifixit.com/igi/XNtRlNUt2sh2sKnA.large
Apple TV: http://techrestore.com/appletv/images/03 - Top View.jpg http://techrestore.com/appletv/pages/04 - Bottom View.htm

Just use the size of the USB port as reference. There is physically less space on a MacBook's motherboard.

The Apple TV may be ridiculously small, but the motherboard is as large as the enclosure is.

 

[hogfaninga]

In your face aggressive posting style?

Anyway, there is a clear difference, those threads that you mentioned (such as reviews and "hey i just got a _____") almost always contain useful information for people.

These threads serve absolutely no purpose other than to rally up the troops to complain. If you don't like something whine to apple about it, don't start a thread that will go no where other than seeing who agrees with the topic.

Internet badass? You clearly have no idea of who I am.

The owner of this board and the admins/mods evidently do NOT have a problem with it or threads like this would be deleted. That being the case, this thread is allowed. Once again I ask: If you do not like to read about this issue then why click on the thread and make a smartass reply to it? There is a simple solution to this. Don't open up the damn thread.

 

[robanga]

I just want to say with clarity and boldness; I am so glad there is yet another thread on this subject. I am preparing many thoughtful and intelligent posts on it too Because absolutely NONE of the other threads discussed this enough.

 

[jzuena]

You mean in the last ~5 years. Not 12 to 18 months. Again, as I said, you have to remember that the vast majority of PCs never had and never will have Firewire. USB 2.0 has been around for more than half a decade now with every motherboard and OEM PC in that time shipping with multiple USB 2.0 ports.

Again, MiniDV cams and basically all digital video cameras from the last half decade have been USB 2.0 capable or USB 2.0 only.

If you look at most of HP's desktops they specifically say in the specs "NO IEEE 1394".

My Canon HV 20 which first shipped less than 3 years ago is USB capable... only to pull stills off the MiniSD card. If you want your DV or HDV video, you need FireWire, since there are no video "files" that can transfer via USB. So we've already shown your "everything in the last half decade works with USB" is wrong.

As far as most computers not having FireWire, I just walked through my house and looked at all of the computers. I have a Mac Mini with FireWire, a MacBook Pro with FireWire (400 & 800), a Dell Inspiron HackBook with FireWire, two Asus Pundits with FireWire, and a very old Compaq Presario without. The Inspiron is the only one that has an unpowered 4 pin FireWire, all the others have 6 pin powered FireWire. So now we see that "the majority of machines will never have FireWire" isn't looking good, either. And the Pundits were purchased around 2002 and come with both a 4 pin and 6 pin FireWire port on the motherboard, so its not just a new thing for other companies to include FireWire. And at the time that I bought them, I didn't even know what FireWire was, so I didn't seek out machines that specifically had it. These machines run MythTV and it turned out to be incredibly useful for controlling my cable TV set-top boxes long before I got a Mac and an older version of the video camera that is still sold directly on Apple's website (they still don't bother to warn you that a new MacBook won't work with the camera that they will gladly take your $899 for, unless you want a really expensive and heavy still camera).

Who cares if HP doesn't put FireWire on their desktops. You can add a PCI card with FireWire ports on just about any desktop other than Apple's consumer line. You can add FireWire to just about any laptop other than the MacBook, too, by using an ExpressCard. If Apple would add the ability to add expansion cards to machines other than the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro it wouldn't matter that they decided to remove FireWire. Those that still need it could just spend the extra to add it in on their own. Of course the whole thing is moot if Apple continues some form of FireWire on their next revisions of consumer desktops. I hope it won't be just the iMac, since I detest all-in-ones, but that is a topic for a whole different set of redundant threads. I don't need to pull video using a laptop, but I want to be able to move forward to Snow Leopard and my current Mini will probably get left behind, so I was hoping to get a laptop that would future-proof my current investment in FireWire and still go forward into the next OS.

When Apple decided to remove FireWire on the MacBook I looked at the WhiteBooks and saw that the Inspiron 1525 had the same specs at $430 rather than $949 with the same lack of video for use with Snow Leopard. Forget the smug upsell to MBP for $2000, instead Apple got $129 for Leopard and nothing else.

So, in the interests of making sure there is useful information in the thread: "Hey, I just bought a Dell Inspiron 1525 (available at Best Buy) and it runs Leopard. It has the same specs as a WhiteBook at 1/2 the cost (and that's with 3 GB memory instead of 2 GB). Like Apple, the best deals can be had on Dell's refurb store. The FireWire is only 4 pin and there are no drivers for the SD card reader, but sleep and two-finger scrolling work. Look for 10% off if you spend $500 coupons usable on refurb store machines."

 

[NT1440]

The owner of this board and the admins/mods evidently do NOT have a problem with it or threads like this would be deleted. That being the case, this thread is allowed. Once again I ask: If you do not like to read about this issue then why click on the thread and make a smartass reply to it? There is a simple solution to this. Don't open up the damn thread.

Your solution sounds alot like the one i give to those who whine about no FW;

If you dont like the product, dont buy it.

 

[hogfaninga]

Your solution sounds alot like the one i give to those who whine about no FW;

If you dont like the product, dont buy it.

I will repeat. If you do not like the topic being discussed then don't click on the thread. Hopefully one day that common sense advice will click in your head.

Listen I'm not trying to be a jerk and maybe you aren't either, but you have a tendency (not just in this thread) to put down what some people want to discuss. You might not like the topic or think it has been beaten to death. I mentioned above what I think has been beaten to death. Difference is I don't click on those reductant threads and make a comment. I go on to a topic that I'm interested in. You should do the same if it bother you so much.

 

[dukebound85]

Your solution sounds alot like the one i give to those who whine about no FW;

If you dont like the product, dont buy it.

who says anything about not liking the product? the pros outweigh the cons when i buy a product

i can complain that i cant easily add hd's to the 360 yet still like the system. i can complain about the lack of copy and paste on the iphone but still like the iphone. i can complain about the lack of firewire on the mb and still like the mb. the list goes on forever

to say we cant complain about features (or lack of) on otherwise great products is not your place or anyone else's

 

[jodelli]

I can wait for the next upgrade, eSATA, or whatever it's going to be. No need to buy something that's less than perfect.

 

[Me1000]

Im sure it has been said before, but I really cant justify reading all 4 pages of this thread to check, but...


The MacBook is NOT a prosumer product!

 

[sushi]

Who cares if HP doesn't put FireWire on their desktops. You can add a PCI card with FireWire ports on just about any desktop other than Apple's consumer line. You can add FireWire to just about any laptop other than the MacBook, too, by using an ExpressCard.

True.

To add, most motherboards these support FW and just need a FW socket (port) to be connected to the motherboard. HP could very well be using motherboards that support FW, but to save money, HP has not provided a built in socket (port).

 

[fishniw]

Just so we make sure that everything is covered...

no big deal just get a
-firewire to usb converter
-firewire to ethernet converter
-firewire to audio jack converter


Response: No that is not possible

 

[tubbymac]

Although I can sympathize and can agree that Apple really screwed over some loyal customers that bought a lot of firewire stuff and then hung them out to dry, for the majority of the consumers the Macbook is targeted for, we simply have no use for firewire. I have a few PC notebooks with firewire, my desktop machine has firewire, and I've never used the ports. Nobody in my family ever uses the ports on their old Macbooks either. To many of us, it's just wasted space on our notebooks, much like the fingerprint readers on many PC notebooks that also never get used.

 

[ibosie]

Will apple ever get it right? Time to stop worrying about the 1% market.

I "get" your post and you're absolutely right; there's always a wasted opportunity that Job's fails to spot, the give and take that he seems to prefer.

I understand the defensive posts on here too, as a life long Mac user it's quite natural, but the case for the defense this time doesn't exist.

 

[rd261]

The new macbooks use nvidias new cards, not the intel x3100.

And correct me if I'm wrong but has apple stopped selling the other Cinema Displays?

I know that the new macbooks use an nvidia card. However, the OP said that Apple crewed up pro users after introducing the X3100 so Im just wondering why.

About the cinema displays, yes they are still selling the old ones, but for how long? Whatever you say or think, I dont care, but I think apple made a huge mistake by only supporting the last gen. macbook family on the latest cinema lineup. I was looking forward to an LED cinema display for my less than 3 months black macbook, but I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

 

[chaos86]

...but the case for the defense this time doesn't exist.

Defense: Apple is increasing profits by cutting out parts that very few use, and driveing those that use them to higher priced products. It may not be the reasoning you and the OP, a pro who wants to buy consumer products, wants to hear, but it's the truth.

 

[NT1440]

I know that the new macbooks use an nvidia card. However, the OP said that Apple crewed up pro users after introducing the X3100 so Im just wondering why.

About the cinema displays, yes they are still selling the old ones, but for how long? Whatever you say or think, I dont care, but I think apple made a huge mistake by only supporting the last gen. macbook family on the latest cinema lineup. I was looking forward to an LED cinema display for my less than 3 months black macbook, but I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

What's stopping you from buying one of the "old" models right now?

Just because they will stop making them at some point doesnt mean that if you buy one now it loses all functionality. Your not one of those "gotta have the latest and greatest" people right? If its what you want and you have the funds, go get it.

 

[rd261]

What's stopping you from buying one of the "old" models right now?

Just because they will stop making them at some point doesnt mean that if you buy one now it loses all functionality. Your not one of those "gotta have the latest and greatest" people right? If its what you want and you have the funds, go get it.

As I said I was waiting for an LED cinema display. Yes I will buy one, however, not from Apple since they are not supporting my product in the latest lineup. I'm not one of those "gotta have the latest and greatest", but I waited for a couple of months for this product to come out and I'm just disappointed in Apple's decision. But anyways, I guess they don't need my money, so I may as well give it to a company that values customers a bit more.

Don't get me wrong, I love Apple products, and I'll probably keep on buying them, but they really did disappoint me this time.

 

[paolo-]

Totally agree with you hiimac, a computer's just a big calculator that enables people to do stuff. Why outrightly disable features that seriously wouldn't cost apple much to put in plentifully capable computers (seriously, when compared to laptops in general the macbook is quite a beast) simply to to push them towards their high-end, of witch most would never even dream of using their full potential.

What is up with people thinking that if you are a pro consumer, you _need_ a pro product ? Or that if it's a consumer product, it's okay if it has limited features. Kind of like saying a set of speaker is 'hi-fi' what the heck does that mean, hooray it's hi-fidelity, it's still just a speaker with a name slaped on it. Same thing for a computer macbook = small yet capable computer, macbook PROOOO = larger more capable computer. Where does the 'hey I'm actually going to use this computer's potential' fit into this?

Compare this to say... duct tape, sure it was first made to fix air ducts but guess what? Most people that buy duct tape don't actually fix ducts with it. Most of them don't feel bad about it.

Computers made for round peg in square hole people? Not really, enable the machine to do things, not profile the costumer.

Love the products, hate the policies.

 

[cellocello]

Defense: Apple is increasing profits by cutting out parts that very few use, and driveing those that use them to higher priced products. It may not be the reasoning you and the OP, a pro who wants to buy consumer products, wants to hear, but it's the truth.

This.

 

[ibosie]

Defense: Apple is increasing profits by cutting out parts that very few use, and driveing those that use them to higher priced products. It may not be the reasoning you and the OP, a pro who wants to buy consumer products, wants to hear, but it's the truth.

Sorry but that's nonsense - you misunderstand the ethos of the original post. I don't blame you, it's hard to criticise a potentially brilliant product.

 

[cellocello]

Sorry but that's nonsense - you misunderstand the ethos of the original post. I don't blame you, it's hard to criticise a potentially brilliant product.

The MacBook doesn't have BluRay either. Or a 7-in-1 card reader. Or a finger print scanner. Or a PCI card slot. Or a physical WiFi switch. Or a 1080p display.

Man ... we got lots to bitch about. Let's get stared!!

 

[HLdan]

The MacBook doesn't have BluRay either. Or a 7-in-1 card reader. Or a finger print scanner. Or a PCI card slot. Or a physical WiFi switch. Or a 1080p display.

Man ... we got lots to bitch about. Let's get stared!!

And yet you still bought one when you could've gotten something with those features, right? Makes sense...

 

[cellocello]

And yet you still bought one, right? Makes sense...

Is your sarcasm overriding my sarcasm? Man, this whole thing is getting pretty sarcastic ... I think?

For the record, I have no problem with FW being "relegated" to the Pro line of MacBooks.