Will APPLE EVER give up on screwing PRO user (no firewire) read in.

[sushi]

You're trying to tell me that a MiniDV camera that would now be approaching FOUR years old had enough FLASH memory to store more than an hours worth of DVD quality video?

Yep. You got it.

In fact, most had the ability to use various flash memory cards to extend the flash memory capacity.

BTW, most of these camcorders compressed video using AVC/H.264 or other compression method when recording instead of using DV, so there is a huge difference in storage requirements for a given recording time.

Video that was several gigabytes in size (Hey just like MiniDV!) and took some time to pull off the camera?

Yes, because you were using USB.

And how many of those were FW exclusive?

Didn't look at all of them so I don't know. However, I would venture to say that all have USB, the high end ones also have FW.

External HDDs are just as fast on USB 2.0, eSATA is becoming the standard, which is faster than any current Firewire standard being used.

You can believe that USB 2.0 is just as fast as FW400, let alone FW800.

However, if you dig down deeper into how the hardware is set up, USB requires use of the CPU to conduct the file transfer where as FW does not. USB is also a burst mode type file transfer in that for small files and short durations it is fairly fast but for large file transfers is becomes slower in sustained transfer rates. FW on the other hand continues with the same throughput for the entire file transfer.

What is really nice about FW, is that you can be doing other activities that are CPU intensive while transferring files. USB on the other hand is very slow.

Also, for those of us who travel, FW is a much better solution than eSATA. For example, I can carry up to a 500GB (at this time) external FW800 hard drive. All I need to use this drive is a short FW800 cable. I don't need an external power supply for my eSATA drive. Very convenient for those who travel. One less thing to carry.

FW also allows Target Disk Mode. This is extremely useful for those who share data between their laptop and desktop computers.

For those in tech support situations, FW allows them to boot quickly from an external HD to troubleshoot and fix the supported computer.

I could go on, but hopefully by now you get the point of why so many want FW on the MB.

 

[paolo-]

FW also allows Target Disk Mode. This is extremely useful for those who share data between their laptop and desktop computers.

I never used Target Disk Mode, I don't actually know deep down what it does, but plugging an ethernet cable from one mac to another makes for some speedy file transfer.

If it only does file transfer, we're all set with ethernet.

 

[pscraig]

Ethernet is great if the other computer can even boot at all. If not, you could always place it in Target Disk Mode and just use it as an external hard drive with another Mac. All you had to do was press T while the computer started up. Run whatever utilities or configuration necessary to bring it back to life, unplug and reboot.

Now what would be nice, and Apple could get some points for technology, would be to integrate some sort of rudimentary hardware NAS into the new notebooks. This would be the best of both worlds-ethernet access, with a Target Disk-like functionality.

 

[mosx]

Yep. You got it.

In fact, most had the ability to use various flash memory cards to extend the flash memory capacity.

BTW, most of these camcorders compressed video using AVC/H.264 or other compression method when recording instead of using DV, so there is a huge difference in storage requirements for a given recording time

Wow. This is getting to be so bad that I can't even laugh.

So you're telling me that a now 4 year old camera had roughly 8GB of flash memory at a time when flash memory was roughly $60 per GB, and at a time when CompactFlash was not yet at 8GB and neither was any other memory card standard.

On top of that, video cameras at that time did NOT support H.264 encoding. Some lowball $100 Target flash video cameras supported an earlier version of MPEG-4 recording, but those were generally barely above cellphone quality.

So not only are you trying to tell me I used a camera with technologies that did not yet exist at the time of manufacture, you're trying to tell me that the woman I helped had spent an additional several hundred dollars on features (that didn't exist) on top of the camera itself.

Yes, because you were using USB.

No I wasn't using USB. I was using USB 2.0. Which, in a real world situation outside of Apple's computers up until the recent MacBook revision, is every bit as fast as Firewire.

You can believe that USB 2.0 is just as fast as FW400, let alone FW800.

Because the facts prove it.

However, if you dig down deeper into how the hardware is set up, USB requires use of the CPU to conduct the file transfer where as FW does not. USB is also a burst mode type file transfer in that for small files and short durations it is fairly fast but for large file transfers is becomes slower in sustained transfer rates. FW on the other hand continues with the same throughput for the entire file transfer.

Have you ever actually transferred files over USB 2.0 or FW? Sending small amounts of files over either interface is significantly slower than sending large files.

Anyone with an iPod can see this. Get 100MB worth of small files, like pictures or other small files and throw them on your iPod. Then get 100MB worth of larger files, like songs encoded in a lossless format and see which one transfers fastest.

What is really nice about FW, is that you can be doing other activities that are CPU intensive while transferring files. USB on the other hand is very slow.

That may be true on the Apple side. On my previous MacBooks I would notice that transferring files over USB (like syncing an iPod) would eat up as much as 50% total CPU time.

Thats not the case on my current aluminum MacBook, nor has it EVER been the case in Windows with quality chipsets. Transferring files over USB on my HP notebook (Santa Rosa chipset) is slightly faster than the Mac and only eats up about 1-2% CPU time.

Also, for those of us who travel, FW is a much better solution than eSATA. For example, I can carry up to a 500GB (at this time) external FW800 hard drive. All I need to use this drive is a short FW800 cable. I don't need an external power supply for my eSATA drive. Very convenient for those who travel. One less thing to carry.

Nevermind the fact that powered eSATA is coming, or the fact that FW800 never existed on the MacBook or any notebook other than the MacBook Pro.

Or the fact that HIGH QUALITY external HDDs or enclosures require external power anyway.

If you're going to be cheap and buy a low grade external HDD that is in a cheap enclosure with no proper cooling system then you can go ahead and do that. I'm sure most people here value their data far too much to risk using something like you'd find in the Apple Store for sale.

You go ask people what they want. Is the average person going to want a cheap external drive that is prone to failure? Or reliable and much faster? Exactly.

FW also allows Target Disk Mode. This is extremely useful for those who share data between their laptop and desktop computers.

Because its so hard to send data over a network? Gigabit ethernet is faster than Firewire. It's also considerably more convenient than hooking one computer up to another and transferring data that way. How many people are going to move one computer from one room and go through the nonsense of using Target Disk Mode when they could just throw their data on an external HDD and take it over, or send it over the network?

For those in tech support situations, FW allows them to boot quickly from an external HD to troubleshoot and fix the supported computer.

You realize that booting from USB has been around for ages now, right?

There are guides out there that are YEARS old that tell you how to easily install Windows XP, Vista, or many "flavors" of Linux on to a flash or external USB device and take it over to any computer and boot from it.

You can even boot a Mac off of USB!

Besides, it makes more sense to boot off of an optical disc in the event that something is wrong with the computer itself. Or take the drive out, though I realize Apple made this deliberately hard on many of their systems in an effort to force them to pay for expensive upgrades at the time of purchase.

 

[CartmanMCP]

guys all this discussion is really pointless. There is no firewire on the MacBook. End of story. Live with it and buy whetever suits your needs.

If you still have a FW camcorder it's probably obsolete and you should get a new one. If you work with PRO music apps get the MacBook PRO (that's why it's called the PRO) and get used to carrying the extra weight around. Oh and if you DO use pro music apps, the extra $600 should not be a problem for you now should it?

 

[California]

My final conclusion on it, and i got the 2.4ghz with 4 gigs of ram, is that Apple has consolidated its laptop line up to differentiate between pro users and consumer users, without considering the "handiness" of having a 12" inch laptop screen that used firewire. I bought this macbook because I have two G5 Powermacs and wanted a replacement for my 12" powerbook that just did not take enough ram to run things well anymore.

The problem for consumer users is that we no longer have the array of iBooks or plastic macbooks to choose from in different sizes.

Ibooks used to come in 12" and 14" screens. It didn't matter that the iBooks were only equipped with VGA out; they had firewire. Then we lost more options as Black and white macbooks squeezed the screen option down to one 13.3" screen.

Powerbooks used to come in three sizes 12" 15" and 17" screens, with DVI ports. I guess Apple thought that the video out ports were the determining factor between pro and consumer lines back then. However, Firewire proved to be the real issue for them, not the video output. The differences between the final revision of the 12" ibook and the 12" powerbook was minimal. They actually used the same logicboard, overclocked from 1.33 to 1.5ghz on the powerbook. But these two final revision PPCs "evened out" because the iBook maxed out at more ram than the 12" Powerbook. They put a 512mb ram chip on the iBook logic board. If you slapped a bigger hard drive and a superdrive in your iBook, you essentially had a 12" plastic powerbook with vga out.

Now all there is, is the 15" and 17" screens for Mac Book Pros. This sucks. Who wants to carry either of these big machines around with them in creative environments?

I think all the upset over the loss of firewire is that Apple made a decision that pros would not need firewire on smaller laptops.

This is the problem: APPLE MADE A LIFESTYLE CHOICE "FOR" US by limiting, rather than expanding, their laptop format sizes and specs.

I also think the problem is reaching a tipping point with the movie studios, and music and television companies because they cannot control or firmly make money off the internet with all of the random copying devices out there.

Firewire makes copying media much easier. I think this is also an issue that has not been discussed. Without firewire and target disk mode, copying of media in a high quality fashion is a lot more difficult.

I think this is also some of Apple's thinking as per iTunes.

Big Media is a dinosaur used to making money the old way. Let's face it, Apple is part of Big Media now. Five years and more ago, Apple seemed to encourage all this sort of creativity with its product lines. Now, it sees that they encouraged and created a legion of people who can create with their products and it affects big media which drives iTunes.

I'm sure you guys have thought about this before, but I do see the loss of firewire as a step in "controlling" the internet and content flow.

The size factor is also bothersome. Apple is now determining that we can't have small laptops, at all. The macbook is still too large for me and the MacBook Air is slow and useless as well as too big. Once I downsized from the 15" powerbook to the 12" powerbook, plus my desktop, I was in hog heaven with my set up.

Sorry to have gone on so long. I just feel "controlled" by Apple in my buying choices. Having gone from five laptops in differing screen sizes three years ago to having three sizes PLUS losing firewire on the small size just sucks.

I'm living with it. Unless Apple comes out with an 11" mac book pro, I don't think any of us will be happy. But let's try to remind them that we would be very happy with that sort of notebook. With firewire. And a faster CPU than the MacBookAir, (a notebook for dilettantes). And we'd pay for it.

 

[ppc750fx]

APPLE MADE A LIFESTYLE CHOICE "FOR" US

Both this and most of the rest of your post are a load of crap.

Apple didn't make any choice for you. They removed a chipset and a port from a new revision of a laptop. They're not forcing you to forgo your existing Fireware-capable machines. They're not forcing you to buy one of the two machines in their lineup without Firewire. They're not even forcing you to buy an Apple computer at all.

Your "lifestyle choice" is completely up to you. If you want a computer with Firewire, Apple makes several that have it. If they're not acceptable, there are a host of other manufacturers that sell laptops with IEEE 1394 ports.

What it basically comes down to is this: Apple eliminated Firewire from their consumer laptop line, reasoning (correctly) that the majority of buyers don't use it. You, on the other hand, want a new laptop with Firewire. As a result, you must now determine whether or not it is worth the cost (in all senses of the word) to either a) buy a MacBook Pro or b) use a computer with Firewire support from another manufacturer. Hell, there's technically option c) buy a MacBook and forgo Firewire.

You should make the choice depending on what OS X is worth to you, what Firewire is worth to you, and what using Apple's products is worth to you. But you don't seem to be doing that. Instead, you seem to want to whine and claim that Apple made a "lifestyle choice" for you.

Use whatever laptop you want. But don't try and claim that someone (or some company) is "forcing" you to make a certain choice.

 

[ITASOR]

The biggest problem for me with no Firewire would be FW Target Mode. I can use my USB HD Camcorder instead of the MiniDV one. Using USB for my external HDs wouldn't be great, but I can connect them that way if I had to.

The thing is that I do a lot of Mac repair and recovery type work. Right now, I can bring my MacBook and a FW400 cable and easily be able to recovery, scan, modify etc. their hard drive.

I know that with Disk Warrior, you can boot from the CD, so that would elimated the need for FW Target Mode to run Disk Warrior. However I can think of numerous times where I had to pull up someone's HD through FW Target Mode in order to modify a file or get a file. Not sure what I could have done without that.

 

[Beric]

Where can you get a 17" Asus notebook with better specs than a 17" MacBook Pro for under $950? Or did you just make up numbers to support your point?

Haven't heard of $950. But $1250? Here.

 

[BaldiMac]

Originally Posted by BaldiMac
Where can you get a 17" Asus notebook with better specs than a 17" MacBook Pro for under $950? Or did you just make up numbers to support your point?

Haven't heard of $950. But $1250? Here.

Not better specs than a 17" MacBook Pro. And not 1/3 the price of the 17" MacBook Pro.

I was responding to this comment:

Originally Posted by Winni
A 17" MacBook Pro is about three times as expensive as a 17" Asus notebook with an already enhanced technical specification, meaning the PC-notebook has better graphics, a larger hard disk, more ports and more system memory.

 

[Beric]

Not better specs than a 17" MacBook Pro. And not 1/3 the price of the 17" MacBook Pro.

I was responding to this comment:

Definitely not 3x. But less than 1/2 the price is still quite impressive. And for another $100 ($1350 total), you can get a Sager NP5793 with 9800M GTS graphics and Blu-ray standard.

 

[BaldiMac]

Definitely not 3x. But less than 1/2 the price is still quite impressive. And for another $100 ($1350 total), you can get a Sager NP5793 with 9800M GTS graphics and Blu-ray standard.

With a slower processor and no operating system. But adding those only adds about $300 to the price.

Not that that matters much. I agree with you about the difference in price being impressive. Apple computers are generally outdated in the vital specs late in their product cycle.

 

[likemyorbs]

i dont know if anyone said this yet, but im not reading 7 pages of comments. the thread name contradicts itself. it says PRO USER, and then NO FIREWIRE. The pro's have firewire if im not wrong. what is the OP complaining about?

 

[BaldiMac]

i dont know if anyone said this yet, but im not reading 7 pages of comments. the thread name contradicts itself. it says PRO USER, and then NO FIREWIRE. The pro's have firewire if im not wrong. what is the OP complaining about?

I'm pretty sure that the OP is claiming that Apple is purposefully trying to screw pro users who don't want to buy a MacBook Pro by removing the firewire from the new MacBooks.

I do not agree with his logic.

 

[paolo-]

I do not agree with his logic.

How so ?

 

[California]

Both this and most of the rest of your post are a load of crap.

Apple didn't make any choice for you. They removed a chipset and a port from a new revision of a laptop. They're not forcing you to forgo your existing Fireware-capable machines. They're not forcing you to buy one of the two machines in their lineup without Firewire. They're not even forcing you to buy an Apple computer at all.

Your "lifestyle choice" is completely up to you. If you want a computer with Firewire, Apple makes several that have it. If they're not acceptable, there are a host of other manufacturers that sell laptops with IEEE 1394 ports.

What it basically comes down to is this: Apple eliminated Firewire from their consumer laptop line, reasoning (correctly) that the majority of buyers don't use it. You, on the other hand, want a new laptop with Firewire. As a result, you must now determine whether or not it is worth the cost (in all senses of the word) to either a) buy a MacBook Pro or b) use a computer with Firewire support from another manufacturer. Hell, there's technically option c) buy a MacBook and forgo Firewire.

You should make the choice depending on what OS X is worth to you, what Firewire is worth to you, and what using Apple's products is worth to you. But you don't seem to be doing that. Instead, you seem to want to whine and claim that Apple made a "lifestyle choice" for you.

Use whatever laptop you want. But don't try and claim that someone (or some company) is "forcing" you to make a certain choice.

Actually you misread my post. No one is forcing me or any Mac fan to make a choice. Apple reduced their laptop line and made a lifestyle choice for us. What about this simple grammar do you not understand?

I've been on Mac since 1989. I have never owned a PC, and only literally touched or worked on one three times in my entire life. I wouldn't even know how to use Windows even if someone installed it on my MacBook, this is why I stayed PPC until a few weeks ago. Who needs it? I love Apple, but they reduced their laptop line from two different size iBooks, three different size Powerbooks to one Macbook and two different sized Mac Book Pros and took off the firewire.

They gave us less of a line-up to choose from. It was their decision which affects my lifestyle.

Again, what about the facts don't you understand? I don't want a big laptop with firewire 800. I want a true portable to easily interface with my G5 desktop. Smaller laptops fit in my purse, my 12" PB did.

What is happening now is that I am rarely using the MacBook. It is just sitting there with the original foam protection on top of the keys. It is probably going to be returned.

 

[VSMacOne]

Actually you misread my post. No one is forcing me or any Mac fan to make a choice. Apple reduced their laptop line and made a lifestyle choice for us. What about this simple grammar do you not understand?

I've been on Mac since 1989. I have never owned a PC, and only literally touched or worked on one three times in my entire life. I wouldn't even know how to use Windows even if someone installed it on my MacBook, this is why I stayed PPC until a few weeks ago. Who needs it? I love Apple, but they reduced their laptop line from two different size iBooks, three different size Powerbooks to one Macbook and two different sized Mac Book Pros and took off the firewire.

They gave us less of a line-up to choose from. It was their decision which affects my lifestyle.

Again, what about the facts don't you understand? I don't want a big laptop with firewire 800. I want a true portable to easily interface with my G5 desktop. Smaller laptops fit in my purse, my 12" PB did.

What is happening now is that I am rarely using the MacBook. It is just sitting there with the original foam protection on top of the keys. It is probably going to be returned.

I totally understand that you're frustrated, along with many others as well.
HOWEVER, this is APPLE we're talking about... Most of the shots they've called in the past 5-10 years have been pretty good, because they've been doing pretty well for themselves. And they've pretty much been set in their own way of doing things... Change always ends up hurting somebody! In this case, it's those few users who REALLY wanted firewire or a smaller sized machine.
No matter what any of them say, any company is in business to make money!!! So the only thing that's gonna change Apple's direction would be if their sales would be weak because of these issues... I don't see that happening.. not YET at least.
And unitl that happens, they're gonna stick with their plan

 

[likemyorbs]

So the only thing that's gonna change Apple's direction would be if their sales would be weak because of these issues... I don't see that happening.. not YET at least.
And unitl that happens, they're gonna stick with their plan

i dont think apple is ever going to lose business over dropping firewire. it really is a dying technology. if there arent that many people pissed about it now, in a couple of years firewire will be history. USB won the connection war, and after usb 3.0 comes out, this whole argument will be OBSOLETE. firewire is almost dead, let it go people. just let it go

 

[hiimamac]

Totally agree with you hiimac, a computer's just a big calculator that enables people to do stuff. Why outrightly disable features that seriously wouldn't cost apple much to put in plentifully capable computers (seriously, when compared to laptops in general the macbook is quite a beast) simply to to push them towards their high-end, of witch most would never even dream of using their full potential.

What is up with people thinking that if you are a pro consumer, you _need_ a pro product ? Or that if it's a consumer product, it's okay if it has limited features. Kind of like saying a set of speaker is 'hi-fi' what the heck does that mean, hooray it's hi-fidelity, it's still just a speaker with a name slaped on it. Same thing for a computer macbook = small yet capable computer, macbook PROOOO = larger more capable computer. Where does the 'hey I'm actually going to use this computer's potential' fit into this?

Compare this to say... duct tape, sure it was first made to fix air ducts but guess what? Most people that buy duct tape don't actually fix ducts with it. Most of them don't feel bad about it.

Computers made for round peg in square hole people? Not really, enable the machine to do things, not profile the costumer.

Love the products, hate the policies.

Here is what a lot of people do NOT get.

Let's step back in time shall we. The Macbook pre new X3 GMA (intel whatever), the OPEN GL benchmark went from:
70% to 171% with Leopard when it first came out.

You could never EVER play a game on the macbook, GAME=Most NON PRO systems for windows. Yet you could run motion due to the OPEN GL affected by the HIGH OPEN GL SCORE and not the same as a GAMING OPEN GL.
So, it is reported everywhere that Apple doesn't like it but you can use a low priced machine for MOTION and APERATURE so Apple releases the new INTEL X3 (something) GMA and now the BENCHMARKS drop from 171 tp 70%. So everyone says, GET A PRO MACHINE THEN....right?

Thing is, they miss the point, as it is the principle of the matter. When APPLE changed the GMA and dropped the benchmark, it affected only the PRO market as the slow GMA was fine for everything else, in other words, it DID NOT AFFECT the consumer at all.

The point is, APPLE went out of their WAY to release this slower GMA as it offered no other benifit, no LONGER LASTING battery life, no BETTER graphics for CONSUMER, nothing, it was NO UPGRADE at all, in fact, it was a DOWNGRADE which targeted ONLY PRO APPS.

Apple basically does the same thing with removal of FIREWIRE. The new Nvidia chip is far more advanced than the GMA on board GPU and they know that the PRO would use this so they made sure to REMOVE firewire ONLY this time they hurt the HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS of musicians, those that want to boot in target mode, and millions of consumers that have firewire HDs, mom and pop video cam corders, and many iLife editor consumers.

The real kicker is that NOW the new MBP and MB use the same chassis and are still priced $700 ,more and for what? FIREWIRE, EXPRESS SLOT and 2 ore inches? The profit margin is now HIGHER for APPLE yet they feel that any consumer that is a musician now must buy a MAC BOOK PRO if they want FIREWIRE interfaced. I think many fail to see that APPLE went out of their way to remove the working GMA and release the slower one and now that the GPU is capable, they needed to make sure that there is no way a consumer, pro-sumer, musician (much larger audience than those hurt by the lower GMA GPU switch) can never use a macbook, which many PRO SUMERS did buy.

Its not all about PRO's but PRO SUMERS and APPLE deliberately going out of their way.

 

[CandyShop]

Oh my.

Yes, Apple screwed some people with the decision to remove FireWire. Yes, some people will probably buy the new MacBook and not realize that it is not compatible with their camera until it is too late. Yes, Apple should inform all purchasers that Firewire has been removed from the MacBook so that people who don't spend their lives following Apple can make an informed purchase.

However, since Steve Jobs returned, Apple has always been eliminating standards.

The original iMac, which was undeniably a consumer machine and extraordinarily popular, eliminated floppy discs. People complained, but dealt with it.

The benefit was that new, more efficient technology has developed. The same is happening with Firewire. Apple has been prepping this for a long time; just take a look at the elimination of Firewire from the iPod line, a process that began in 2005.

I don't agree completely with their decision to eliminate Firewire, but it is still available on several Apple machines, and I realize that the inconvenience now is paving the way for future innovation.

If it's that big of a deal, purchase a white MacBook, a MacBook Pro or a desktop. End of story. The only issue that I can see stemming from this is if people aren't informed about the possible issue of not having Firewire and don't discover that they don't have it until its too late.

 

[petermcphee]

Oh my.

Yes, Apple screwed some people with the decision to remove FireWire. Yes, some people will probably buy the new MacBook and not realize that it is not compatible with their camera until it is too late. Yes, Apple should inform all purchasers that Firewire has been removed from the MacBook so that people who don't spend their lives following Apple can make an informed purchase.

However, since Steve Jobs returned, Apple has always been eliminating standards.

The original iMac, which was undeniably a consumer machine and extraordinarily popular, eliminated floppy discs. People complained, but dealt with it.

The benefit was that new, more efficient technology has developed. The same is happening with Firewire. Apple has been prepping this for a long time; just take a look at the elimination of Firewire from the iPod line, a process that began in 2005.

I don't agree completely with their decision to eliminate Firewire, but it is still available on several Apple machines, and I realize that the inconvenience now is paving the way for future innovation.

If it's that big of a deal, purchase a white MacBook, a MacBook Pro or a desktop. End of story. The only issue that I can see stemming from this is if people aren't informed about the possible issue of not having Firewire and don't discover that they don't have it until its too late.

Very, very well said.

 

[mosx]

Oh geez hiimamac. You basically got proven wrong in this thread, tried to stir things up in other threads, including the recent rumors thread about the Mac mini and iMac, and now you have to come back and revive this thread after it had died a painful death?

You could never EVER play a game on the macbook, GAME=Most NON PRO systems for windows. Yet you could run motion due to the OPEN GL affected by the HIGH OPEN GL SCORE and not the same as a GAMING OPEN GL.
So, it is reported everywhere that Apple doesn't like it but you can use a low priced machine for MOTION and APERATURE so Apple releases the new INTEL X3 (something) GMA and now the BENCHMARKS drop from 171 tp 70%. So everyone says, GET A PRO MACHINE THEN....right?

Thing is, they miss the point, as it is the principle of the matter. When APPLE changed the GMA and dropped the benchmark, it affected only the PRO market as the slow GMA was fine for everything else, in other words, it DID NOT AFFECT the consumer at all.

The point is, APPLE went out of their WAY to release this slower GMA as it offered no other benifit, no LONGER LASTING battery life, no BETTER graphics for CONSUMER, nothing, it was NO UPGRADE at all, in fact, it was a DOWNGRADE which targeted ONLY PRO APPS.

You are completely wrong.

Apple DID NOT go out of their way to downgrade the graphics processor in the plastic MacBooks. While I agree that Intel integrated graphics should have NEVER been used, the X3100 (how many times do we have to tell you this?) was part of the Santa Rosa chipset. Every single PC manufacturer that used Intel integrated graphics as part of the Santa Rosa chipset was affected by this.

The downgrade in performance was INTEL'S fault. NOT APPLE.

And yes the downgrade DID affect consumers because games ran worse and the UI ran worse.

Apple basically does the same thing with removal of FIREWIRE. The new Nvidia chip is far more advanced than the GMA on board GPU and they know that the PRO would use this so they made sure to REMOVE firewire ONLY this time they hurt the HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS of musicians, those that want to boot in target mode, and millions of consumers that have firewire HDs, mom and pop video cam corders, and many iLife editor consumers.

Hundreds of thousands of musicians? The average musician can't even afford a Mac, what makes you think they're relying on a MacBook with an expensive Firewire interface?

And again, M-Audio and E-MU sell USB versions of everything they make or are USB only.

Millions of consumers have Firewire HDDs? I've only ever seen combo units. Maybe a few ridiculously overpriced Lacie drives are Firewire only, but I've only ever seen USB + Firewire drives. But now its mostly USB + eSATA since Firewire is dead.

Finally, once again, nearly all video cameras sold in the last several years have been USB capable or USB 2.0 only. Firewire is DEAD for video. The removal of Firewire from the MacBook will affect only a small portion of people compared to the amount Apple will GAIN in sales for advertising the aluminum MacBooks as an iPod syncing digital photo editing machine.

The real kicker is that NOW the new MBP and MB use the same chassis and are still priced $700 ,more and for what? FIREWIRE, EXPRESS SLOT and 2 ore inches? The profit margin is now HIGHER for APPLE yet they feel that any consumer that is a musician now must buy a MAC BOOK PRO if they want FIREWIRE interfaced. I think many fail to see that APPLE went out of their way to remove the working GMA and release the slower one and now that the GPU is capable, they needed to make sure that there is no way a consumer, pro-sumer, musician (much larger audience than those hurt by the lower GMA GPU switch) can never use a macbook, which many PRO SUMERS did buy.

Its not all about PRO's but PRO SUMERS and APPLE deliberately going out of their way.

Again, Apple didn't go out of their way for anything. THe downgrade in performance of the X3100 is the fault of Intel and Intel's bundling it with the Santa Rosa chipset.

The MacBook Pro and MacBook do NOT use the same chassis. They are made from the same PROCESS but they are NOT the same body. The MacBook Pro is a full INCH deeper than the MacBook which gives them room for half-width ExpressCard slot and a Firewire 800 port.

There is simply NO ROOM on the MacBook for a Firewire port. Not unless Apple gives up Ethernet or USB, and all 3 of those jacks are FAR more important to consumers than Firewire. Not to mention the fact that the white MacBook is built considerably different, internally, than the aluminum MacBook. So, again, there is just NO ROOM given the internal changes.

Apple didn't go out of their way for anything. They simply listened to customer feedback and realized that almost nobody uses Firewire and that people wanted a more powerful, smaller, and more well designed machine than one with a port they will never use.

 

[kasakka]

Hundreds of thousands of musicians? The average musician can't even afford a Mac, what makes you think they're relying on a MacBook with an expensive Firewire interface?

And again, M-Audio and E-MU sell USB versions of everything they make or are USB only.

There is simply NO ROOM on the MacBook for a Firewire port. Not unless Apple gives up Ethernet or USB, and all 3 of those jacks are FAR more important to consumers than Firewire. Not to mention the fact that the white MacBook is built considerably different, internally, than the aluminum MacBook. So, again, there is just NO ROOM given the internal changes.

I see lots of DJs with Macbooks using FireWire to connect to mixing desks and whatnot. The working musician can definitely afford a Macbook and I'd say most would rather haul around the smaller Macbook over the larger MBP.

It doesn't matter that a few brands sell USB versions. Most people invest or have already invested in FireWire or PCI interfaces because they are often higher quality, lower latency and more reliable.

The "there's no room" argument is a bit weak. Physically the port would fit there easily, Apple could have simply designed the circuit boards differently. They didn't and now we have to suffer from the lack of FW at least for one iteration.

 

[petermcphee]

They didn't and now we have to suffer from the lack of FW at least for one iteration.

You may not understand this, but Firewire is not coming back in the next iteration. They released an iPhone with no firewire. Then guess what? Yes, that's right, another iteration of the iPhone with no firewire.

There's not going to be firewire on the next version of the macbook. It's done. Maybe while you "suffer" through this iteration, you can save for an MBP. It's the only way you'll have firewire.

Cheers!

 

[ftaok]

Wow. This is getting to be so bad that I can't even laugh.

So you're telling me that a now 4 year old camera had roughly 8GB of flash memory at a time when flash memory was roughly $60 per GB, and at a time when CompactFlash was not yet at 8GB and neither was any other memory card standard.

OK, you're both right and wrong.

Here are some points.

1. All miniDV camcorders transfer DV footage via Firewire.

2. Some (very few) did have the capability to transfer footage from tape to PC (not Mac) via USB, but the stream would be converted to M-JPEG. (example - Sony DCR-TRV27) Since I've never used it, I'm not sure how it would show up on a desktop as a file.

3. I would venture to say that 97+% of all miniDV camcorders out there would be useless with the new Macbooks ... which is what this thread is about.

4. The lack of FW is a dealbreaker for many amateur videophiles. miniDV and HDV camcorders require Firewire and in their respective categories, still represent the high-end in terms of video quality. miniDV is the top for SD camcorders and HDV is still the best for HD (although the gap seems to be getting smaller and smaller).

ft