Will APPLE EVER give up on screwing PRO user (no firewire) read in.

[mosx]

I just want to point out that if you go to Amazon right now you'll find a total of SIX MiniDV cameras in the top 50 sellers, with nearly all of them at the bottom of the list. In the top 100 you'll find a total of 12 MiniDV cams, with only a very small number of those being in the price range that an average person would be able to afford.

All of the rest are Flash, DVD, or HDD based. In fact, if you look at that top 100 list on Amazon, you have AVCHD HDD based cameras by Canon selling better than the MiniDV "HD" cameras as well as the consumer oriented MiniDV cams.

So just like Firewire, MiniDV itself is a dead technology.

Now before someone goes on and on about the "large" amount of MiniDV cams sold over the last few years, every single person ready to make that point needs to look at things realistically. The average person with a video camera NEVER thought about transferring their movies from MiniDV to DVD or editing them in any way. For the average consumer it is a matter of recording clips of video and then plugging in the little cables to watch them on the TV. The amount of people who actually own a MiniDV camera and actually transfer video off of it to be edited on a computer and then burned to DVD is only a very small portion of the overall installed base.

All the average person wanted to be able to do was get quick video clips and play them on their TV.

But now that internet video is becoming more popular and computers more powerful, the average person DOES want to have video online. But guess what they're turning to for that? Sales don't lie. People are turning to Flash, DVD, and HDD based cameras to get their video on their computers and on to other media.

You know, people like to complain a lot. And, thankfully, people on forums are usually wrong. If what the internet has to say about things is to be believed, if you had come here 7 years ago you would have been led to believe that the iPod would be a massive failure that would kill Apple. But guess what? The iPod was the fastest piece of electronics to reach 100m sold.

You would have also been led to believe that the switch to Intel would kill Macs, because a "Mac isn't a Mac without a PowerPC processor!" But guess what? Macs are selling better than ever now.

Similar things were said about iPods failing, again, when Firewire syncing was officially removed. People went crazy saying that the iPod would die because USB 2.0 was so slow blah blah blah. But guess what? It was after the removal of Firewire that the iPod sales really got kick started and took off.

Apple's management, design, marketing, and sales teams all know what they're doing better than a few people on a forum. They've looked at the facts and realized that MiniDV is dead in the consumer space. Firewire is dead in the consumer space as well as in most "Pro" applications. They've realized that the vast majority of people who do want video are getting it from USB 2.0 only cameras. They've realized that most musicians that do their own recording on their own computer are either using a USB 2.0 interface (M-Audio and E-MU are far more affordable than the others) or they're simply running the line-out jack from their guitar amp or microphone right into the line-in jack on their MacBook. Not the best as far as quality goes, but a staggering amount of people choose that solution.

So, really, the lack of Firewire is a non-issue. The "mom and pop" that the OP speaks of will not even have a MiniDV cam, according to sales, and most musicians are either going to run feeds from their instruments and such directly into the line-in or they're going to have a much more affordable USB interface.

End of discussion.

 

[Sdashiki]

mosx your posts are insightful, but far from informative.

and for the most part, you truly come off as some sort of holier than though preacher which on these forums is bound to turn some heads.

MiniDV is not dead. Just because you say it is.

FW is not dead. Just because Apple dropped it from the Macbook

 

[richorlin]

Worse, current Apple notebooks have ONE USB port, which is absolutely appalling. If anyone thinks that there are two, try to plug two USB thumb drives at the same time. Powerbooks and older MBPs had a much better positioning of their USB ports, such that two ports were useable at the same time. In current MBPs, some effing "genius" decided to effectively reduce the number of USB ports to only one. Sure, you have a choice as to which of the two to use, but then the remaining one becomes physically inaccessible.

A $4.98 USB extension cord would solve the problem very easily. You might even have one lying around if you have ever bought the new aluminum keyboard (one came in the box).

 

[robanga]

So, really, the lack of Firewire is a non-issue. The "mom and pop" that the OP speaks of will not even have a MiniDV cam, according to sales, and most musicians are either going to run feeds from their instruments and such directly into the line-in or they're going to have a much more affordable USB interface.

End of discussion.

Excellent, well said.

 

[solidbreakz]

Excellent, well said.

Agreed.

 

[kasakka]

most musicians are either going to run feeds from their instruments and such directly into the line-in or they're going to have a much more affordable USB interface.

Most musicians even recommend that other musicians get FireWire interfaces. The price difference between FW and USB interfaces in the "prosumer" market isn't much, but often the FW units perform better. There are pretty much no USB audio interfaces when you get to the higher quality devices but those will most often be used with Mac Pros and the like. It's basically the prosumer market Apple is excluding with the new Macbooks. These are folks that would like a Mac recording laptop but can't afford the MBP or find it too big for their uses. I recently saw a bunch of DJs at a club and guess what all of them had? That's right, Blackbooks or Whitebooks, no MBPs in sight, most likely due to the size and price.

I can't think of any reason why someone would use the line-in on the Macbook for recording over a dedicated audio interface with superior converters, mic preamps and so on. Maybe if you were using a synth/keyboard the line-in just might work but for any other instrument, no. Nobody wants to use the line-out on a guitar amp because they sound like crap and even a cheap microphone gets better results.

FireWire is doing just fine in the music recording side. USB 3 may change that but even then few people have any real need to change their FW audio interfaces. Let's just hope around this time next year Apple hasn't dropped FW from the MBPs as well.

 

[GimmeSlack12]

Ideas and choices made during a transition of technology always seem ignorant or that there is another plan in motion. We have seen this guys! We have this time and time and time again, and we will see it time and time again.

I love hearing what the desktop jockeys have to say about this hardware and that hardware, but stop wasting your breath and effort about what is or is not offered. We are witnessing yet another transition and as consumers we are along for the ride!

Firewire is dying out in the consumer market and well. That's just how it is. But in the big picture maybe you'll sit back and think "Do I really miss my floppy/zip drive?".

 

[localoid]

I...They've realized that most musicians that do their own recording on their own computer are either using a USB 2.0 interface (M-Audio and E-MU are far more affordable than the others) or they're simply running the line-out jack from their guitar amp or microphone right into the line-in jack on their MacBook. Not the best as far as quality goes, but a staggering amount of people choose that solution.

Any so-called "musician" using the line in on their laptops to record must be an absolutely clueless beginner who knows very little about digital recording. The line in is the worst possible choice for recording...

If you're happy with being limited to just recording just two channels at once USB will work. But Firewire is the way to go for anyone who wants to record multiple tracks at once (say for example, using more than two mics on a drum set).

Maybe you're content with achieving the lowest quality recording at the absolute cheapest price, but anyone really serious about recording will eventually want to pursue the highest quality solution they can afford, and that typically means buying a Firewire audio interface. The people interested in recording "on the cheap" should probably buy a $300 Netbook and use its line in...

 

[mosx]

Most musicians even recommend that other musicians get FireWire interfaces. The price difference between FW and USB interfaces in the "prosumer" market isn't much, but often the FW units perform better. There are pretty much no USB audio interfaces when you get to the higher quality devices but those will most often be used with Mac Pros and the like.

Why would there be no "higher quality" USB devices? M-Audio and E-MU somehow don't make high quality equipment? Try going outside of this forum and saying that at others.

If you're someone who can afford a Mac Pro then theres no reason for you to even be looking at Firewire or external interfaces of any kind. But then you have the problem of the Mac Pro's extremely limited expandability. It only has two PCI Express slots and thats it.

These days, if you're into high end recording, theres no reason to go with a Mac. It's too limited in terms of expandability and you can build a far more powerful Windows machine for about half the cost of the Mac Pro. When I say far more powerful I mean it. Plus you'll get multiple standard PCI slots, multiple PCIe, as well as PCIe 2.0 16x for graphics. And by multiple I don't mean Apple's standard of 2.

I recently saw a bunch of DJs at a club and guess what all of them had?

DJs aren't musicians and clubs aren't representations of quality music or quality music reproduction.

Why would a DJ need Firewire for music playback anyway? The MacBook offers bit perfect digital output.

Let's just hope around this time next year Apple hasn't dropped FW from the MBPs as well.

Firewire is essentially dead in the MBP. You have to get an adapter to be able to use Firewire 400. What does that tell you? This time next year we'll probably see that Firewire 800 port dropped in favor of a powered eSATA port or maybe USB 3.0 if it gets out early.

I can't think of any reason why someone would use the line-in on the Macbook for recording over a dedicated audio interface with superior converters, mic preamps and so on. Maybe if you were using a synth/keyboard the line-in just might work but for any other instrument, no. Nobody wants to use the line-out on a guitar amp because they sound like crap and even a cheap microphone gets better results.

[/quote]Any so-called "musician" using the line in on their laptops to record must be an absolutely clueless beginner who knows very little about digital recording. The line in is the worst possible choice for recording...[/quote]

These two quotes right here really annoy me and they show the bad side of the Apple community and why people won't adopt Apple just because of the community.

This "I can't understand why they would do that because it sucks" or "why don't they buy this" mentality is just wrong.

Both of you need to venture outside of the Apple forums and into others. You'll soon realize that people in the real world don't have a lot of money.

And being a "musician" doesn't mean you have money. Most real musicians have to work regular jobs and their music takes second place. For the person who is a guitarist in a local band with a daughter to feed and a mortgage to pay while making an median income, buying a "high quality" Firewire device to record himself playing is out of the question. In fact, if he even bought a MacBook, it's almost guaranteed that it is the most expensive computer he has ever purchased. You can bet that the rest of the band is all in a similar situation.

So while quality wise, using the line-in isn't the best choice, for most REAL musicians it is the ONLY choice. It might not be that way in the Apple world where people have more money (they'd have to, to buy computers that cost twice as much as an equal PC), but in the real world thats how it is.

If you're happy with being limited to just recording just two channels at once USB will work. But Firewire is the way to go for anyone who wants to record multiple tracks at once (say for example, using more than two mics on a drum set).

Why would USB 2.0 limit you to two channels? USB 1.1? Yeah. USB 2.0? Not at all. You're forgetting that USB 2.0 has as much real world bandwidth as Firewire. It is only on Apple computers that USB 2.0 does not perform as well as Firewire and I see that every day. When I transfer files over to a flash drive or my 80GB iPod, it takes considerably longer in OS X than it does in Windows. But thats another story.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra8R.html M-Audio seems to disagree with you that you'd be stuck to two channel recording with USB 2.0.

Maybe you're content with achieving the lowest quality recording at the absolute cheapest price, but anyone really serious about recording will eventually want to pursue the highest quality solution they can afford, and that typically means buying a Firewire audio interface. The people interested in recording "on the cheap" should probably buy a $300 Netbook and use its line in...

Well, actually, if you're interested in the "highest quality solution" you're not going to look at Firewire at all. And you most certainly wouldn't even be considering a Mac of any kind, given the extremely limited connectivity and expandability they offer. Desktop PCs offer far more power and expandability than a MacBook Pro and Business (truly "Pro") notebooks from HP and others offer full connectivity to just about everything that even the MacBook Pro does not.

On top of that, all of these "highest quality" recording interfaces you speak of don't use Firewire or USB 2.

So as I said, Firewire is dead. It's a relic. It's being phased out the same way VHS was being phased out a few years ago.

But with that said, its not like your Firewire devices will stop working as Apple phases Firewire out. Neither will the computers you have that still have Firewire. Theres no reason you can't continue to use both for years to come. It just means that new equipment will not support it. And if you're someone who invested a lot in Firewire recording equipment, this should be a lesson to you regarding how you spend your money and the quality of equipment you buy.

 

[vol26]

Just got a new Macbook for Christmas and I'm one of those "moms" talked about here that has a high-end Sony HDD camcorder with a firewire and now no way to hook it up to my new Mac. My husband had no idea (neither did I) that the newest Macs didn't have a firewire port. I'm really disappointed because I have really wanted a Mac for a long time. Looks like I'll be packing it up and sending it back.

 

[jonbravo77]

Just got a new Macbook for Christmas and I'm one of those "moms" talked about here that has a high-end Sony HDD camcorder with a firewire and now no way to hook it up to my new Mac. My husband had no idea (neither did I) that the newest Macs didn't have a firewire port. I'm really disappointed because I have really wanted a Mac for a long time. Looks like I'll be packing it up and sending it back.

Well I guess I'll be the jerk... Did no one look at the MB before it was bought, no looking at Apple.com at the specs or anything? You can still get the older generation of MB's at Apple.com.

 

[leekohler]

I just want to point out that if you go to Amazon right now you'll find a total of SIX MiniDV cameras in the top 50 sellers, with nearly all of them at the bottom of the list. In the top 100 you'll find a total of 12 MiniDV cams, with only a very small number of those being in the price range that an average person would be able to afford.

All of the rest are Flash, DVD, or HDD based. In fact, if you look at that top 100 list on Amazon, you have AVCHD HDD based cameras by Canon selling better than the MiniDV "HD" cameras as well as the consumer oriented MiniDV cams.

So just like Firewire, MiniDV itself is a dead technology.

Now before someone goes on and on about the "large" amount of MiniDV cams sold over the last few years, every single person ready to make that point needs to look at things realistically. The average person with a video camera NEVER thought about transferring their movies from MiniDV to DVD or editing them in any way. For the average consumer it is a matter of recording clips of video and then plugging in the little cables to watch them on the TV. The amount of people who actually own a MiniDV camera and actually transfer video off of it to be edited on a computer and then burned to DVD is only a very small portion of the overall installed base.

All the average person wanted to be able to do was get quick video clips and play them on their TV.

But now that internet video is becoming more popular and computers more powerful, the average person DOES want to have video online. But guess what they're turning to for that? Sales don't lie. People are turning to Flash, DVD, and HDD based cameras to get their video on their computers and on to other media.

You know, people like to complain a lot. And, thankfully, people on forums are usually wrong. If what the internet has to say about things is to be believed, if you had come here 7 years ago you would have been led to believe that the iPod would be a massive failure that would kill Apple. But guess what? The iPod was the fastest piece of electronics to reach 100m sold.

You would have also been led to believe that the switch to Intel would kill Macs, because a "Mac isn't a Mac without a PowerPC processor!" But guess what? Macs are selling better than ever now.

Similar things were said about iPods failing, again, when Firewire syncing was officially removed. People went crazy saying that the iPod would die because USB 2.0 was so slow blah blah blah. But guess what? It was after the removal of Firewire that the iPod sales really got kick started and took off.

Apple's management, design, marketing, and sales teams all know what they're doing better than a few people on a forum. They've looked at the facts and realized that MiniDV is dead in the consumer space. Firewire is dead in the consumer space as well as in most "Pro" applications. They've realized that the vast majority of people who do want video are getting it from USB 2.0 only cameras. They've realized that most musicians that do their own recording on their own computer are either using a USB 2.0 interface (M-Audio and E-MU are far more affordable than the others) or they're simply running the line-out jack from their guitar amp or microphone right into the line-in jack on their MacBook. Not the best as far as quality goes, but a staggering amount of people choose that solution.

So, really, the lack of Firewire is a non-issue. The "mom and pop" that the OP speaks of will not even have a MiniDV cam, according to sales, and most musicians are either going to run feeds from their instruments and such directly into the line-in or they're going to have a much more affordable USB interface.

End of discussion.

Something worth pointing out here- HDD and DVD video cameras compress the video file automatically, whereas MiniDV does not. The loss of quality with DVD and HDD cameras is significant, I might add. For the Pro user, they are not options. I don't know about flash, but everyone I know in the industry still uses MiniDV, as DVD and HDD are not options. Even people using Hi-Def use MiniDV. There is also no real downside to MiniDV. Importing from that format is relatively quick and easy, and you can preview the footage you need straight from the camera to your computer.

Just got a new Macbook for Christmas and I'm one of those "moms" talked about here that has a high-end Sony HDD camcorder with a firewire and now no way to hook it up to my new Mac. My husband had no idea (neither did I) that the newest Macs didn't have a firewire port. I'm really disappointed because I have really wanted a Mac for a long time. Looks like I'll be packing it up and sending it back.

Please do- and include a message with it. Get a refurb Black MacBook or white MacBook instead. You can still buy a new white MacBook with firewire.

 

[mosx]

Just got a new Macbook for Christmas and I'm one of those "moms" talked about here that has a high-end Sony HDD camcorder with a firewire and now no way to hook it up to my new Mac. My husband had no idea (neither did I) that the newest Macs didn't have a firewire port. I'm really disappointed because I have really wanted a Mac for a long time. Looks like I'll be packing it up and sending it back.

Well, Sony and "high end" don't fit together at all. Plus Sony is the only company other than Apple to ever actually push Firewire, though they called it "i.Link" back in the day. Sony is all about proprietary connections, formats, media, etc. so it doesn't surprise me that they'd make one of the only HDD cameras without USB in an attempt to get people to buy a VAIO.

You're just like most people though, better off with a PC anyway. A year from now you would have been wishing for a new PC so this works out for the best.

Something worth pointing out here- HDD and DVD video cameras compress the video file automatically, whereas MiniDV does not. The loss of quality with DVD and HDD cameras is significant, I might add. For the Pro user, they are not options. I don't know about flash, but everyone I know in the industry still uses MiniDV, as DVD and HDD are not options. Even people using Hi-Def use MiniDV. There is also no real downside to MiniDV. Importing from that format is relatively quick and easy, and you can preview the footage you need straight from the camera to your computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV#Video_compression DV uses compression less efficient than MPEG-2 that DVD uses and suffers from visual artifacting.

MiniDV used to record HD video uses MPEG-2.

So yes, MiniDV does compress video and it does so in worse fashion than the lower bitrate MPEG-2 format used by DVD. If a DVD based camera produces an image of lower quality that is the result of the camera itself and not a representation of all DVD based cameras.

Most HDD based cameras use AVC or AVCHD, which is probably around 20x more efficient than DV (can achieve DVD quality at 1.5Mbps without visual artifacting). "True HD" 1080p is also possible without visual artifacting at around 20Mbps, less than standard definition MiniDV.

Please do- and include a message with it. Get a refurb Black MacBook or white MacBook instead. You can still buy a new white MacBook with firewire.

And get a massively inferior computer that only ships with 1GB of RAM (can't even find a fully featured notebook at Walmart these days with only 1GB of RAM) and plastic casing that is known to crack and break with general use, and a GPU that isn't even suited for video playback.

And honestly, the death of Firewire should be welcome. It paves the way for eSATA in Macs as well as USB 3.0. That benefits everyone rather than keeping us all in the past.

 

[leekohler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV#Video_compression DV uses compression less efficient than MPEG-2 that DVD uses and suffers from visual artifacting.

MiniDV used to record HD video uses MPEG-2.

So yes, MiniDV does compress video and it does so in worse fashion than the lower bitrate MPEG-2 format used by DVD. If a DVD based camera produces an image of lower quality that is the result of the camera itself and not a representation of all DVD based cameras.

Most HDD based cameras use AVC or AVCHD, which is probably around 20x more efficient than DV (can achieve DVD quality at 1.5Mbps without visual artifacting). "True HD" 1080p is also possible without visual artifacting at around 20Mbps, less than standard definition MiniDV.

Funny then how every professional I know refuses to use DVD or HDD cameras. Wonder why? They just must be stupid people who haven't met you yet.

http://www.consumertipsreports.org/camcorders_the_minidv_vs_minidvd_mystery.html

And get a massively inferior computer that only ships with 1GB of RAM (can't even find a fully featured notebook at Walmart these days with only 1GB of RAM) and plastic casing that is known to crack and break with general use, and a GPU that isn't even suited for video playback.

And honestly, the death of Firewire should be welcome. It paves the way for eSATA in Macs as well as USB 3.0. That benefits everyone rather than keeping us all in the past.

I would do at least a little research once in a while. Look in the refurb store, it's got some damn good deals- oh and look! 2 gigs of RAM standard on quite a few models! And a GPU that isn't suited for video playback? Please. I do that on my 2.4 Black MacBook all the time.

 

[robanga]

Well, Sony and "high end" don't fit together at all. Plus Sony is the only company other than Apple to ever actually push Firewire, though they called it "i.Link" back in the day. Sony is all about proprietary connections, formats, media, etc. so it doesn't surprise me that they'd make one of the only HDD cameras without USB in an attempt to get people to buy a VAIO.

You're just like most people though, better off with a PC anyway. A year from now you would have been wishing for a new PC so this works out for the best.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV#Video_compression DV uses compression less efficient than MPEG-2 that DVD uses and suffers from visual artifacting.

MiniDV used to record HD video uses MPEG-2.

So yes, MiniDV does compress video and it does so in worse fashion than the lower bitrate MPEG-2 format used by DVD. If a DVD based camera produces an image of lower quality that is the result of the camera itself and not a representation of all DVD based cameras.

Most HDD based cameras use AVC or AVCHD, which is probably around 20x more efficient than DV (can achieve DVD quality at 1.5Mbps without visual artifacting). "True HD" 1080p is also possible without visual artifacting at around 20Mbps, less than standard definition MiniDV.
t.

This makes sense to me because of my own experience, circa 2001/2002 I had a Sony MicroMV that recorded on MicroMV tapes in an MPEG format. I did get consistently better results from it as compared to another DV camera that I had at the time. ( a Canon) I thought it was just a difference in lenses at the time, but someone mentioned later that there was a compression difference.

 

[HLdan]

These days, if you're into high end recording, theres no reason to go with a Mac. It's too limited in terms of expandability and you can build a far more powerful Windows machine for about half the cost of the Mac Pro.

DJs aren't musicians and clubs aren't representations of quality music or quality music reproduction.

Why would a DJ need Firewire for music playback anyway? The MacBook offers bit perfect digital output.

You completely miss the point over and over. Musicians aren't the geeks that these "gamers" are. They are not looking for the best bang for the buck. Sorry dude, you are WAY WRONG. This is one area that Macs have the market, always have and always will and that's the music industry. The preferred platform is the Mac OS. There are more software options and support when it comes to DJing and professional recording. You BARELY ever see a Windows machine being used by DJ's and recording studios, it's always Macintosh.

Secondly, in regards to DJ's, you missed the point completely. I've been to several dance clubs and DJ's always have a either a PowerBook or a Macbook Pro. The iBook and the White Macbook both have Firewire yet DJ's still buy the pro-series Mac notebook. The same goes for recording studios, you barely ever see an iBook or a Macbook even though they have a firewire, recording studios will still use a MBP or Powerbook.
This is just one of the reasons why it makes sense for Apple to pull Firewire from the consumer line.

 

[bozz2006]

i just still find the argument and the title of this thread funny. Will Mac ever give up on screwingPRO users? no firewire! lol. buy a macbookPRO!

 

[Chase817]

I don't really get why Apple would drop the firewire technology that they created...

 

[NT1440]

I don't really get why Apple would drop the firewire technology that they created...

What indication is there that they have dropped firewire except for the macbook?

 

[mosx]

Funny then how every professional I know refuses to use DVD or HDD cameras. Wonder why? They just must be stupid people who haven't met you yet.

http://www.consumertipsreports.org/c...d_mystery.html

And what "professionals" are those?

Oh and what was the point of that article? About 80% of it was just repeating over and over again that one format uses tape and the other uses DVD. Then a couple of sentences at the end stated that MiniDV is for quality. Based on what? It's already been proven that DV compression is considerably more inefficient than MPEG-2 and suffers from visual artifacting.

Look in the refurb store, it's got some damn good deals- oh and look! 2 gigs of RAM standard on quite a few models! And a GPU that isn't suited for video playback? Please. I do that on my 2.4 Black MacBook all the time.

Yeah, 2GB of RAM standard on a plastic MacBook that is prone to cracking and all sorts of neat case failures. I know that from experience! My plastic MacBooks went out for repair what? Seven times because of case failures. Plus you have the older Santa Rosa chipset with that god awful X3100 GPU.

This comment also proves what I say about Firewire supporters not being up on the latest technology or even truths

You see, in Windows, the GPU plays a very large part in video playback. In fact, on modern GPUs, it IS video playback. Windows has a neat feature called "DXVA" that allows the GPU to do full "bitstream decoding", basically meaning that the GPU gets the video stream in its original compressed form, just with the audio removed, and it does ALL the work. It lowers CPU use, heat, and improves image quality dramatically. The 9400M is capable of this. The X3100 and OS X are not

You completely miss the point over and over. Musicians aren't the geeks that these "gamers" are. They are not looking for the best bang for the buck. Sorry dude, you are WAY WRONG.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "getting the best bang for the buck" and everything to do with getting the best hardware they can. That is something Apple simply DOES NOT offer.

I mean, look at the Mac Pro for instance. For expandability options it has a free PCIe 16x slot and 2 PCIe 4x slots. Thats it. Nearly every high quality internal audio interface is standard PCI 2.2. Which the Mac Pro does not have. Also, server grade processors in a desktop computer? How stupid is that!? Sure, they're great at the mundane task of fetching data and piping it over a network. But they're terrible when it comes to other uses like editing video, audio, or playing a game. They only outperform the other Macs Apple has because the iMac uses mobile parts!

This is one area that Macs have the market, always have and always will and that's the music industry.

Prove it. A decade ago, I might have believed you. Now? Not at all. The BEST tools are available on both platforms, and there are MORE tools available for Windows. Plus PCs that are more powerful than Macs can cost half as much or even less.

There are more software options and support when it comes to DJing and professional recording.

Yeah, prove it. Again, a DJ is NOT a musician. You go ahead and google "music recording" and see how many of those millions of results are for Windows and not OS X. WIth the exception of Apple's software, all of the best tools are on both platforms and tools more geared towards the average person are much more widely available on Windows, software and hardware.

You BARELY ever see a Windows machine being used by DJ's and recording studios, it's always Macintosh.

I guess you haven't been in too many recording studios

Secondly, in regards to DJ's, you missed the point completely.

No, I didn't. I'm just saying that DJs are not musicians and whatever they do doesn't matter. All they do is play (awful) music at places like clubs to keep the masses happy.

I've been to several dance clubs and DJ's always have a either a PowerBook or a Macbook Pro. The iBook and the White Macbook both have Firewire yet DJ's still buy the pro-series Mac notebook. The same goes for recording studios, you barely ever see an iBook or a Macbook even though they have a firewire, recording studios will still use a MBP or Powerbook.

First of all, you don't need Firewire for playback.

Second, the whole buying one of the "Pro series" is well... most people do it out of ignorance. The MacBook Pro is anything but a "Pro" machine. Just compare it to the "pro" lines from HP and Dell and you'll see it falls extremely short. The MBP is nothing more than a ridiculously overpriced consumer machine.

Second, it plays into what I've been saying that people just don't know. Perfect example, I know some people that have been Mac users all their life and they are pretty much living examples of posts on this forum. When I got my MacBook they were going on about how I should have gotten a MacBook Pro. I told them I wasn't stupid enough to throw that much money away on such an underpowered computer. They laughed and said "you can't find a PC that powerful for that cheap!" so I went to Newegg and showed them that, for the same price as the entry MacBook Pro, you get dual GPUs, HD disc readers (burners now), larger higher resolution screens, dual HDDs, etc etc etc.

The problem with too many people is that they're stuck in the past. They're stuck on Firewire being better because, 8 years ago, it was. It's not now. Its dead now. People are stuck on Macs being better for audio recording. Again, 10 years ago that was true. Now its not. I remember reading an interview with a musician that said he used a Mac because Windows had too much latency with audio. This was at a time where ASIO drivers had been revised several generations over and latency had disappeared completely years before that interview was conducted.

The simple fact of the matter is that people are stuck in their ways and Firewire supporters, and people who think Macs are better for audio recording, are simply stuck in the past because they either don't know or refuse to accept current facts.

What indication is there that they have dropped firewire except for the macbook?

Well, the Mac Pro has nearly twice as many USB ports as Firewire. The iMac is the same. The MacBook Pro only has Firewire 800, 400 needs an adapter.

Plus they dropped Firewire from the iPods how many years ago? Firewire on the iPod was the big selling point for the first couple of years. Then they just tossed it out like nothing.

 

[NT1440]

Well, the Mac Pro has nearly twice as many USB ports as Firewire. The iMac is the same. The MacBook Pro only has Firewire 800, 400 needs an adapter.

So having more USB than FW and getting rid of an oudated port that is completely covered by 800 (yes I know you need an adapter) is somehow evidence that FW on all apple products are on the way out?

 

[leekohler]

And what "professionals" are those?

Oh and what was the point of that article? About 80% of it was just repeating over and over again that one format uses tape and the other uses DVD. Then a couple of sentences at the end stated that MiniDV is for quality. Based on what? It's already been proven that DV compression is considerably more inefficient than MPEG-2 and suffers from visual artifacting.



Yeah, 2GB of RAM standard on a plastic MacBook that is prone to cracking and all sorts of neat case failures. I know that from experience! My plastic MacBooks went out for repair what? Seven times because of case failures. Plus you have the older Santa Rosa chipset with that god awful X3100 GPU.

This comment also proves what I say about Firewire supporters not being up on the latest technology or even truths

You see, in Windows, the GPU plays a very large part in video playback. In fact, on modern GPUs, it IS video playback. Windows has a neat feature called "DXVA" that allows the GPU to do full "bitstream decoding", basically meaning that the GPU gets the video stream in its original compressed form, just with the audio removed, and it does ALL the work. It lowers CPU use, heat, and improves image quality dramatically. The 9400M is capable of this. The X3100 and OS X are not



This has absolutely nothing to do with "getting the best bang for the buck" and everything to do with getting the best hardware they can. That is something Apple simply DOES NOT offer.

I mean, look at the Mac Pro for instance. For expandability options it has a free PCIe 16x slot and 2 PCIe 4x slots. Thats it. Nearly every high quality internal audio interface is standard PCI 2.2. Which the Mac Pro does not have. Also, server grade processors in a desktop computer? How stupid is that!? Sure, they're great at the mundane task of fetching data and piping it over a network. But they're terrible when it comes to other uses like editing video, audio, or playing a game. They only outperform the other Macs Apple has because the iMac uses mobile parts!



Prove it. A decade ago, I might have believed you. Now? Not at all. The BEST tools are available on both platforms, and there are MORE tools available for Windows. Plus PCs that are more powerful than Macs can cost half as much or even less.



Yeah, prove it. Again, a DJ is NOT a musician. You go ahead and google "music recording" and see how many of those millions of results are for Windows and not OS X. WIth the exception of Apple's software, all of the best tools are on both platforms and tools more geared towards the average person are much more widely available on Windows, software and hardware.



I guess you haven't been in too many recording studios



No, I didn't. I'm just saying that DJs are not musicians and whatever they do doesn't matter. All they do is play (awful) music at places like clubs to keep the masses happy.



First of all, you don't need Firewire for playback.

Second, the whole buying one of the "Pro series" is well... most people do it out of ignorance. The MacBook Pro is anything but a "Pro" machine. Just compare it to the "pro" lines from HP and Dell and you'll see it falls extremely short. The MBP is nothing more than a ridiculously overpriced consumer machine.

Second, it plays into what I've been saying that people just don't know. Perfect example, I know some people that have been Mac users all their life and they are pretty much living examples of posts on this forum. When I got my MacBook they were going on about how I should have gotten a MacBook Pro. I told them I wasn't stupid enough to throw that much money away on such an underpowered computer. They laughed and said "you can't find a PC that powerful for that cheap!" so I went to Newegg and showed them that, for the same price as the entry MacBook Pro, you get dual GPUs, HD disc readers (burners now), larger higher resolution screens, dual HDDs, etc etc etc.

The problem with too many people is that they're stuck in the past. They're stuck on Firewire being better because, 8 years ago, it was. It's not now. Its dead now. People are stuck on Macs being better for audio recording. Again, 10 years ago that was true. Now its not. I remember reading an interview with a musician that said he used a Mac because Windows had too much latency with audio. This was at a time where ASIO drivers had been revised several generations over and latency had disappeared completely years before that interview was conducted.

The simple fact of the matter is that people are stuck in their ways and Firewire supporters, and people who think Macs are better for audio recording, are simply stuck in the past because they either don't know or refuse to accept current facts.



Well, the Mac Pro has nearly twice as many USB ports as Firewire. The iMac is the same. The MacBook Pro only has Firewire 800, 400 needs an adapter.

Plus they dropped Firewire from the iPods how many years ago? Firewire on the iPod was the big selling point for the first couple of years. Then they just tossed it out like nothing.

Again, you miss the point. The Pros use MiniDV. The title of this thread is what we're discussing. Not all pros need a MBP. Firewire should be available on any machine Apple makes, since they woo creative professionals. Many of them don't have the cash to replace their computers and their cameras at the same time. Apple cannot continue down this path without losing people.

 

[HLdan]

I mean, look at the Mac Pro for instance. For expandability options it has a free PCIe 16x slot and 2 PCIe 4x slots. Thats it. Nearly every high quality internal audio interface is standard PCI 2.2. Which the Mac Pro does not have. Also, server grade processors in a desktop computer? How stupid is that!? Sure, they're great at the mundane task of fetching data and piping it over a network. But they're terrible when it comes to other uses like editing video, audio, or playing a game. They only outperform the other Macs Apple has because the iMac uses mobile parts!

The BEST tools are available on both platforms, and there are MORE tools available for Windows. Plus PCs that are more powerful than Macs can cost half as much or even less.



Yeah, prove it. Again, a DJ is NOT a musician. You go ahead and google "music recording" and see how many of those millions of results are for Windows and not OS X. WIth the exception of Apple's software, all of the best tools are on both platforms and tools more geared towards the average person are much more widely available on Windows, software and hardware.


No, I didn't. I'm just saying that DJs are not musicians and whatever they do doesn't matter. All they do is play (awful) music at places like clubs to keep the masses happy.


Second, the whole buying one of the "Pro series" is well... most people do it out of ignorance. The MacBook Pro is anything but a "Pro" machine. Just compare it to the "pro" lines from HP and Dell and you'll see it falls extremely short. The MBP is nothing more than a ridiculously overpriced consumer machine.

Second, it plays into what I've been saying that people just don't know. Perfect example, I know some people that have been Mac users all their life and they are pretty much living examples of posts on this forum. When I got my MacBook they were going on about how I should have gotten a MacBook Pro. I told them I wasn't stupid enough to throw that much money away on such an underpowered computer. They laughed and said "you can't find a PC that powerful for that cheap!" so I went to Newegg and showed them that, for the same price as the entry MacBook Pro, you get dual GPUs, HD disc readers (burners now), larger higher resolution screens, dual HDDs, etc etc etc.

The problem with too many people is that they're stuck in the past. They're stuck on Firewire being better because, 8 years ago, it was. It's not now. Its dead now. People are stuck on Macs being better for audio recording. Again, 10 years ago that was true. Now its not. I remember reading an interview with a musician that said he used a Mac because Windows had too much latency with audio. This was at a time where ASIO drivers had been revised several generations over and latency had disappeared completely years before that interview was conducted.

My gosh, trying to have a civil rebuttal with you is like having a conversation with nobody special. WHY ARE YOU HERE?
You seemingly HATE Apple, HATE their products, HATE their customers such as the ones on this forum because the only person that's right on this forum seems to be YOU. The lack of any ports on any Macintosh computer should be of no care to you since you HATE Apple's MO so much.

Find yourself an HP or Dell forum, they are filled with all sorts of exciting topics that MR can't offer you such as Registry Cleaning and endless driver searching for those "Cheaper" HP's and Dells that have more software and hardware choices over the Mac OS.

 

[chaosbunny]

i just still find the argument and the title of this thread funny. Will Mac ever give up on screwingPRO users? no firewire! lol. buy a macbookPRO!

These type of one sentence replies are what make me laugh the most in the "no-fw complain" threads. There must be many sheeps out there that really think something only is "PRO" when it has the word "PRO" in its name. I have some news, there are notebooks out there that are considerably more professional than the macbook"PRO" but don't have "PRO" in their name. And, mentioned a thousand times, what if some "PRO" user wants a 13" machine with OS X?

I'm beginning to hate the word "PRO". But the sheeps won't stop: "You say PRO go buy PRO, it no PRO, no for YO, only PRO if called PRO, MOW"

 

[Willis]

Erm... Like to stop you there.

I can play games on my Macbook... It has the GMA950 and plays WoW with around 25-30fps. I cant speak for other games, but... it does handle a fairly intense game graphically.

Think before you speak