Will APPLE EVER give up on screwing PRO user (no firewire) read in.

[robeddie]

And "pro" 2D apps (photoshop, illustrator ,etc.) were running fine no matter what on thoses "slow" 1.83Ghz processors.

Firewire was put out because of the size restraint. If they did'nt not do it, another feature would had to go, being an USB port or the ethernet port. That's the price of having easily accessible and replaceable battery, HD and ram.

People whining about firewire are really starting to piss me. You just wrote 1000 words about a port missing and started another thread about it, while there are a tons others. Get over it. If you want firewire, get the pro or one of the old generation, it's as simple as that. I don't care if it's too big or too heavy, build some muscle, it's not like 10 pound are THAT heavy.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if you're that tired of Apple, just switch back to PCs and don't look back. Won't kill you, and you'll get the oh so desired port. Then again, why are you posting on a APPLE FORUM just to complain?

Where does this whole 'fact' about size restraint as the reason for dropping firewire come from?
Someone speculated that in a post or two, and now it's a FACT?
There are tons of laptops (previous and current) smaller than the Macbook AL that have firewire - including of course Apples own 12 inch powerbook!!! (which also had a 'space stealing' dedicated video card, and a 'space stealing' larger processor by the way!)

Please guys, don't state things as though they're fact when your source is another poster who was clearly just speculating (and speculating badly - I would add).

 

[MatLane]

I mean the only thing i think the macbook pro is lacking is


1 more USB slot

and a Firewire 400

But by a cable now or adapter you can do 800 to 400

But it would of been nice to have one in there since its a 'Pro' product


Apples Pro products are still better, sleeker than any other computer on the market. Period.

 

[kasakka]

I wouldn't mind one more USB on the MBP either, but FW400 is not really needed when FW800 will do that just fine with an adapter or 9pin -> 6pin cable.

As for space limitations, surely they could've crammed the Macbook's Kensington lock somewhere else? Does anybody but stores actually use that?

 

[leekohler]

My gosh, trying to have a civil rebuttal with you is like having a conversation with nobody special. WHY ARE YOU HERE?
You seemingly HATE Apple, HATE their products, HATE their customers such as the ones on this forum because the only person that's right on this forum seems to be YOU. The lack of any ports on any Macintosh computer should be of no care to you since you HATE Apple's MO so much.

Find yourself an HP or Dell forum, they are filled with all sorts of exciting topics that MR can't offer you such as Registry Cleaning and endless driver searching for those "Cheaper" HP's and Dells that have more software and hardware choices over the Mac OS.

Thank you! I'm a bit sick of the self-righteous attitude as well.

 

[Tomorrow]

Let me make it clear to you. People that bought camcorders with firewire now can't import video unless you pay a lot more for a Pro machine. Firewire in my mind is not pro... I bought into firewire because Apple promoted it. Now they switch to USB only, what a poor business decision and sticking it to the people that pay their damn bills!!

Nuc

Somebody help me understand what's currently out there as far as video cameras go: I bought mine about 4 1/2 years ago, and it supports both Firewire and USB - depending on which cord you bought to go with it.

Now, assuming Steve J. is correct that all newer camcorders use USB, then based solely on my experience, since my 4 1/2 year old camera supports USB, then most (if not all) cameras made since then support USB.

So now you look at when people have bought their new computers - up until a couple of months ago, every Mac made within the past several years supports both Firewire and USB, and now only a single line of products has dropped Firewire.

Does it really boil down to this: that someone is going to buy a new computer to capture their videos taken with a camera that is most likely more than 4 1/2 years old, and their only choice is a Macbook?

I know I'm really reaching with this, like I said, it's based only on my experience - but is that really what people are up in arms about?

Think about it - ten years ago Apple dispensed with floppy drives, and we all survived. A few years ago they dispensed with 4:3 displays and CRT's, and we all survived. This, too, shall pass.

 

[SHADO]

you know, its pretty hard NOT to buy apple products if your business relies on osx and has 1000's of dollars invested in software and hardware

so yes, we have EVERY right to complain

Umm if you're a business and you really need FireWire, just get refurbished mbp's that have FireWire...Less expensive than buying new computers, and they are not worse than the current mbp's, unless you absolutely have to have the latest technology, which isn't really that more advanced than the previous generation, with the exception of DDR3.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Somebody help me understand what's currently out there as far as video cameras go: I bought mine about 4 1/2 years ago, and it supports both Firewire and USB - depending on which cord you bought to go with it.

USB is for dumping stills from the memory card. FW is for video. While cameras are shifting to recording to memory cards or HDDs and transferring video via USB the vast majority of cameras out there, and the most popular cameras of the past 2-3 years, use FW.

Think about it - ten years ago Apple dispensed with floppy drives, and we all survived. A few years ago they dispensed with 4:3 displays and CRT's, and we all survived. This, too, shall pass.

If you own an iMac but still needed a floppy drive you could just buy a USB floppy drive. If you own a new MacBook and need FW you are SOL.


Lethal

 

[Tomorrow]

USB is for dumping stills from the memory card. FW is for video. While cameras are shifting to recording to memory cards or HDDs and transferring video via USB the vast majority of cameras out there, and the most popular cameras of the past 2-3 years, use FW.


If you own an iMac but still needed a floppy drive you could just buy a USB floppy drive. If you own a new MacBook and need FW you are SOL.


Lethal

I have FW on my iMac and still use USB to capture video from my old VCR with Dazzle. It works just fine.

And you missed my point. If you're buying a new computer and have FW devices that you still need to use, then perhaps a MacBook isn't the right purchase for you.

 

[brad.c]

To answer the OP's question: No.

The rest is a minority of thoughtful debate overshouted by redundant, self important opinion. Somehow, that still makes for an entertaining Christmas Sunday afternoon read. Thanks, everybody!

 

[SHADO]

So don't upgrade to the new machines? Do they really bring all that much new functionality over the older laptops? Nobody is forcing you to buy the new machines, so DON'T buy the new generation, if enough people do this maybe Apple will get their **** in gear and give us more connections and extras in our laptops.

They can get away with this because people will run out into the streets to buy their new stuff, but if you stay with your older(but still functional) machines, they might find that its hurting their bottom line.

I completely agree. If you really need FireWire for your business, I'm sure you can afford to buy refurbished Macbook Pro's, which have everything you need, as I said above.

 

[mosx]

Alright, its time to put this to rest once and for all.

First off, Firewire is not part of the DV spec. Don't believe me? Look it up. Therefore, MiniDV does NOT NEED Firewire.

Secondly, the compressed video that DV uses equals about 4.5MB/sec worth of data. That works out to be less than half the speed that an HDD-based iPod syncs. Not to mention thats slower than the painfully slow iPhone and iPod touch sync at.

So you're going to try to tell me that USB 2.0 can't sustain 4.5MB/sec?

Even if the video was sent through uncompressed, uncompressed standard definition video works out to be roughly 20MB/sec. You're going to try to tell me that USB 2.0 can't sustain 20MB/sec when max the spec can handle is 60 (480Mbps)? So you're going to try to tell me that USB 2.0 can't sustain less than half of its maximum transfer rate?

In that past that would have only been an issue because the HDD itself could not keep up, but that would have affected both Firewire and USB 2.0. But for the past few years, even "slow" notebook HDDs have an average write speed of about 45MB/sec. So this is simply not an issue.

And one final thing on this topic. If USB 2.0 was so incapable of handling high quality high bandwidth video, why are there so many USB 2.0 HDTV tuners that grab the signal from the air and push it to your computer WITHOUT recompression? OTA HDTV is second only to blu-ray in terms of quality. So if USB 2.0 was so "slow", why would we have those devices? Why would we have devices that can capture 1080i video over component cables and send it to the computer as 20+Mbps H.264?

If USB was so incapable, why do the HDD based iPods and iPod nanos sync at more than double the bandwidth of DV video?

Also, as far as recording audio goes, audio quality is entirely dependent on the ADCs, DSPs, and other processors in the recording device.

I just want to reply to one thing specifically:

I can play games on my Macbook... It has the GMA950 and plays WoW with around 25-30fps. I cant speak for other games, but... it does handle a fairly intense game graphically.

Compare the performance of the GMA 950 to the GeForce Go 7400 that was available when the first MacBooks were released (or even the 7200 in the Apple TV). Compare it to the 8400M that was available when the Core 2 Duo MacBooks launched, or even the 9400M now. The GMA 950 isn't even on par with GPUs made at the end of the 90s. WoW only runs good because it looks awful. Try running UT3 or GTA4 on it, something both the 8400M and 9400M are capable of.

 

[HLdan]

And one final thing on this topic...

GREAT!! Your final word, now we don't have to hear anymore from you.

 

[mosx]

GREAT!! Your final word, now we don't have to hear anymore from you.

No, we can now let this thread die knowing the real facts behind all of the issues.

 

[HLdan]

No, we can now let this thread die knowing the real facts behind all of the issues.

Dude, if you haven't figured it out by now, nobody has backed you up nor does anyone care what you've said. No one has learned from anything your wrote. Every one of your posts were worthless. Sorry, PC LOVER.

 

[mosx]

Dude, if you haven't figured it out by now, nobody has backed you up nor does anyone care what you've said. No one has learned from anything your wrote. Every one of your posts were worthless. Sorry, PC LOVER.

Wow, you win the "Immature Post of the Year" award

I'm not a PC lover. I like my Mac too. What I don't like is ignorance. And with that last major post in this thread, I took care of all of the arguments.

 

[paolo-]

Bottom line, apple could have waited for usb 3.0 before removing FireWire ?

 

[mosx]

Bottom line, apple could have waited for usb 3.0 before removing FireWire ?

Eh, with the current design theres no room for Firewire. It would have to be 1 Firewire and 1 USB. Which, for all but an incredibly small amount of users, would be the worst possible solution.

Apple could have put in a shared USB 2.0 + eSATA port though.

 

[HLdan]

Wow, you win the "Immature Post of the Year" award

I'm not a PC lover. I like my Mac too. What I don't like is ignorance. And with that last major post in this thread, I took care of all of the arguments.

Oh, my apologies. I take back what I said, I was wrong, but what I'm right about is that you are hypocritical. You speak out of 2 sides of your mouth.
You say people are ignorant, recommend other PC options because of better value, you say that Apple doesn't give you your monies worth YET YOU HAVE A MAC???? What does that make you?? I can think of a couple of things.
Yep, you talk out of 2 sides of your mouth.
Don't worry, this is my last post to you because I NOW know what I am dealing with...

 

[clancemasterj]

Even if the video was sent through uncompressed, uncompressed standard definition video works out to be roughly 20MB/sec. You're going to try to tell me that USB 2.0 can't sustain 20MB/sec when max the spec can handle is 60 (480Mbps)?

USB relies on the CPU to transfer data, FW operates on a separate bus. So when your using a CPU intensive video application, FW is beneficial in order to work in real time.

 

[mosx]

but what I'm right about is that you are hypocritical.

How so?

You say people are ignorant, recommend other PC options because of better value, you say that Apple doesn't give you your monies worth YET YOU HAVE A MAC???? What does that make you?? I can think of a couple of things.

How many times have I replied to you and others like you regarding this?

I bought my MacBook in March of 2007 based on what people LIKE YOU say about Macs. That whole "using Windows is like losing your best friend" nonsense.

I had used Macs extensively up until that point and had liked what I had seen.

It wasn't until I had it in my own house and had up close and personal experience did I see the real side of the Mac. By then it was too late for me to return it.

I knew before I bought it that the hardware was underpowered and overpriced, but you don't find out that the OS is unstable and inefficient until you have it in your hands and have real personal experience with it.

So of course I recommend people buy PCs. Why should anyone spend $2,000 on a 15.4" system with a lower resolution screen, half the video memory, half the RAM, slower processor, no blu-ray, no HDMI, etc. compared to an $800 cheaper PC?

I've explained all of this to you and many others before.

USB relies on the CPU to transfer data, FW operates on a separate bus. So when your using a CPU intensive video application, FW is beneficial in order to work in real time.

CPU use isn't an issue on Windows, since Windows doesn't even use 5% CPU time on USB transfers.

On top of that, video in Windows is handled by the GPU.

 

[NT1440]

Dude, if you haven't figured it out by now, nobody has backed you up nor does anyone care what you've said. No one has learned from anything your wrote. Every one of your posts were worthless. Sorry, PC LOVER.

Actually, his posts have been knowledgeful, idk if they are facts as Ill have to look into them, but he has made me think about this in a few different ways.

And if you dont want him posting here, dont bait him. simple as that.

 

[leekohler]

Wow, you win the "Immature Post of the Year" award

Hi kettle, you're black.

How many times have I replied to you and others like you regarding this?

I bought my MacBook in March of 2007 based on what people LIKE YOU say about Macs. That whole "using Windows is like losing your best friend" nonsense.

I had used Macs extensively up until that point and had liked what I had seen.

It wasn't until I had it in my own house and had up close and personal experience did I see the real side of the Mac. By then it was too late for me to return it.

I knew before I bought it that the hardware was underpowered and overpriced, but you don't find out that the OS is unstable and inefficient until you have it in your hands and have real personal experience with it.

So of course I recommend people buy PCs. Why should anyone spend $2,000 on a 15.4" system with a lower resolution screen, half the video memory, half the RAM, slower processor, no blu-ray, no HDMI, etc. compared to an $800 cheaper PC?

I've explained all of this to you and many others before.

So sell your Mac and leave the rest of us, who've had fantastic experiences with Macs since Apple started, alone. Also, some of us absolutely despise Windows because (gasp) we've used it. If you don't like OS X or Macs, then why do you keep babbling other than to make yourself feel important?

 

[chaosbunny]

..., but you don't find out that the OS is unstable and inefficient until you have it in your hands and have real personal experience with it.

So, just because you are somehow unable to have a perfectly stable and efficient OS X install like millions of other people, OS X IN GENERAL is unstable and inefficient? Based on your one experience on your one MacBook?

I wish people would stop making generalisations based on their limited experience with 1-2 machines. A company I once freelanced for bought 2 Thinkpads 3 years ago, both had multiple failures and were gone for 3 weeks once sent in for repair. Does this mean all Thinkpads are crap? No.

At the rare occasions I boot into Windows on my Macs for gaming it is giving me more trouble than I have with OS X the other 95% of the time while working with my computers. Does this mean Windows in general sucks? No, it just means I'm not used to it, prefer the way OS X handels things and have better experiences with OS X.

Like a previous poster said, if you don't like your MacBook that's fine, different people - different opinions. Just sell it, get a better spec PC for half the price and be happy.

 

[sushi]

So you're telling me that a now 4 year old camera had roughly 8GB of flash memory at a time when flash memory was roughly $60 per GB, and at a time when CompactFlash was not yet at 8GB and neither was any other memory card standard.

You still have not provided the make and model number so that we can see.

I am used to what was available here in Japan. Many models do not get exported to the states. Sometimes I get confused which ones we are referring to. That is why I asked you for the make and model number so that we would both be on the same sheet of music, per se.

I was using USB 2.0. Which, in a real world situation outside of Apple's computers up until the recent MacBook revision, is every bit as fast as Firewire.

Please provide a reference for this.

You simply stating this as fact, does not make it true.

BTW, I have done large file transfers on both Mac and PC using both FW and USB. FW400 trumps USB 2.0 in sustained transfer rates for both large and small files.

Because its so hard to send data over a network? Gigabit ethernet is faster than Firewire. It's also considerably more convenient than hooking one computer up to another and transferring data that way. How many people are going to move one computer from one room and go through the nonsense of using Target Disk Mode when they could just throw their data on an external HDD and take it over, or send it over the network?

Sending files over a network is fine.

Most do not have Giga Ethernet at home, but rather Fast Ethernet (100Mbps). FW400 is much faster than this. Plus if your network is passing other information at the same time, you may not see the full bandwidth provided.

Also, as any network person can tell you, you will not see 1000Mbps over Giga or 100Mbps over Fast Ethernet networks. There is overhead that reduces the throughput of networks.

Also, with Target Disk Mode, you can use it to trouble shoot another Mac, recover files, and install systems, all without network support.

You realize that booting from USB has been around for ages now, right?

Gee, I hadn't realized this...

Hint, I've been in the computer arena since the mid 70s. So yes, I remember USB 1.0 being introduced.

There are guides out there that are YEARS old that tell you how to easily install Windows XP, Vista, or many "flavors" of Linux on to a flash or external USB device and take it over to any computer and boot from it.

You can even boot a Mac off of USB!

Done it with many OS'es. In fact, if you heard of SETI, I was in the process of making a SETI farm with 30 CPUs all booting from USB.

BTW, FWIW, I've booted my MBP from a SDHC card.

Besides, it makes more sense to boot off of an optical disc in the event that something is wrong with the computer itself.

Actually it doesn't in many cases. Then again, it is becoming quite evident that you know little about FW and TDM.

I have FW on my iMac and still use USB to capture video from my old VCR with Dazzle. It works just fine.

Dazzle is okay.

However, with USB, it is possible that you are missing a frame here and there. FW is the only one that ensures 100% frame capture.

First off, Firewire is not part of the DV spec. Don't believe me? Look it up. Therefore, MiniDV does NOT NEED Firewire.

A MiniDV based camcorder needs FW to move the video from the MiniDV tape to the computer.

If I am wrong, please show me a specific make and model that does not have FW and uses USB instead. Note, I am not talking about the many MiniDV camcorders out there that allow you to capture video to a flash memory card.

No, we can now let this thread die knowing the real facts behind all of the issues.

What facts?

You have provided no facts that I've seen. Only your opinion without qualification.

So, just because you are somehow unable to have a perfectly stable and efficient OS X install like millions of other people, OS X IN GENERAL is unstable and inefficient? Based on your one experience on your one MacBook?

You know, this one tickles me. I have many PC folks that knock the Mac, but ask my support to fix their PCs.

I wish people would stop making generalisations based on their limited experience with 1-2 machines. A company I once freelanced for bought 2 Thinkpads 3 years ago, both had multiple failures and were gone for 3 weeks once sent in for repair. Does this mean all Thinkpads are crap? No.

So true. Many jump to conclusion for no reason at all.

Hi kettle, you're black.

Snort.

We all do this occasionally.

So sell your Mac and leave the rest of us, who've had fantastic experiences with Macs since Apple started, alone. Also, some of us absolutely despise Windows because (gasp) we've used it. If you don't like OS X or Macs, then why do you keep babbling other than to make yourself feel important?

This is what I don't understand. Why folks keep using Macs when they don't like them. Why not just go back to Windows.

 

[ftaok]

You still have not provided the make and model number so that we can see.

I am used to what was available here in Japan. Many models do not get exported to the states. Sometimes I get confused which ones we are referring to. That is why I asked you for the make and model number so that we would both be on the same sheet of music, per se.

A MiniDV based camcorder needs FW to move the video from the MiniDV tape to the computer.

If I am wrong, please show me a specific make and model that does not have FW and uses USB instead. Note, I am not talking about the many MiniDV camcorders out there that allow you to capture video to a flash memory card.

Sushi,

You might have missed my post a few pages back, but mosx is correct about transfering video off of the tape using USB. There were some miniDV camcorders (Sonys mostly) that had a feature called USB streaming. The video would be down-rezzed to about 352x288 and converted to M-JPEG prior to importing and presumably, the video would look like crap.

This method of video import has nothing to do with the flash-card video that many camcorders also use.